Ranger Greatsword is Dead — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Ranger Greatsword is Dead

shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 2, 2019 in Ranger

Nice job Anet. You turned this amazing, fun, balanced, higher skill cap melee weapon into a version that's 100x clunkier and weaker than it was before.

You don't listen.

My favorite weapon has been completely butchered.
7 years worth of muscle memory
My core playstyle since release
Gone
You actually HARD nerfed several gs skills
The autos are literally trash now, and the muscle memory is getting me killed cause I think I'm going to (purposefully, not RNG!) evade an attack with the 3rd part of the chain but NOPE!
You guys decided to remove the skill ceiling completely on gs
Now the autos are just 111111111 spam, no depth or skill required
The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them
3 skills, hard nerfed... for what? Oh! Now we can block for 3 seconds like we could BEFORE the patch by simply spamming jump!

I was right about the sword and dagger changes too. Sword is way weaker and dagger is still useless.

All of our melee weapons are basically trash now. I want to see the nerfs reverted and these changes made in their place.

<13

Comments

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    The evade on 3rd auto could, and I feel should, be returned considering the amount of damage being eaten while in melee. I’m personally ok with counter kick on 4, because I use a ranged weapon too, but to each their own.

    What do you generally run for secondary weapons on your greatsword build? What pets do you use when specced into Soulbeast?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The evade on 3rd auto could, and I feel should, be returned considering the amount of damage being eaten while in melee. I’m personally ok with counter kick on 4, because I use a ranged weapon too, but to each their own.

    What do you generally run for secondary weapons on your greatsword build? What pets do you use when specced into Soulbeast?

    The new kick is significantly worse than the old one. All it has going for it is the very short evade.

    I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.

    I know you didn't say it, but trust me, it's not a L2P issue on my part.

    Also, core ranger basically got gutted this patch as well. Playing it successfully at a high level involved using the GS auto evades and Crippling Throw ON PURPOSE (no RNG!) to survive and kill people.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In the case of a runner you still have access to swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500. The gap closing potential and ranged capabilities are still there in your build, just that 1 ranged skill isn’t now. Those are still lots of options I feel.

  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    just play deadeye... super safe, super easy and does the same job lb ranger does, but with blinks and more stealth. Ranger was hit too hard this patch. Lb is garbage atm, even with 4000 power the pressure is still low (and that is from soulbeast perspective... i don't even want to see the dmg numbers on core ranger), no more surviveability/downcleave with quickness and gs autos because now you melt in 2 seconds when going anywhere near practically anyone. At this point it would be justified to unroot axe 5 or give ranger some unblockable back or make.. well I have no idea but atm it's pointless to play ranger.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    In the case of a runner you still have access to swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500. The gap closing potential and ranged capabilities are still there in your build, just that 1 ranged skill isn’t now. Those are still lots of options I feel.

    I didn't say anything about a lack of gap closers. Without the cripple, we will have a hard time catching and STICKING to targets. We also lose the ability to slow down an enemy to prevent him from chasing an ally/getting to a point too fast.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    In the case of a runner you still have access to swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500. The gap closing potential and ranged capabilities are still there in your build, just that 1 ranged skill isn’t now. Those are still lots of options I feel.

    With GS4 before you could do a lot of damage too. With new GS4 basically we lost 1 Damage skill. The new block doesn't do damage, and players already know to retreat when you block with GS4, so the kick can't hit them. Old GS4 gave us 3 things: range hit, damage and cripple. New GS4 is short with 3 ability vs Old GS4 ...
    GS1 auto ... it is no need to talk about because the new one gives you nothing comparable with old one.

    At the same time, when we talk about GS we talk for sPVP and WvW! You mentioned that the gap of distance now could be eliminated by the longbow. Well seems you forgot that LB got a nerf too in WvW. So from WvW POV now we got 2 main weapons nerfed. Playing with Sword/Dagger and Axe/Warhorn in WvW is not an option. Only if you are duelling or roaming. To fight side by side with a zerg/group you need LB and GS was the best weapon for defence and disengage.

    The patch ruined somehow the ranger MM/BM/SB build for WvW, big time.

    If in sPVP Sword/Warhorn+Axe/Axe or all kind of combination is an option to replace GS and LB, in WvW, unfortunately, it is not.

  • Loboling.5293Loboling.5293 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Nice job Anet.
    All of our melee weapons are basically trash now.

    Well it is called a Range-r. Maybe after 7 years, they realized what that meant...

    Sorry, please do go on. ;P

  • Deax.1572Deax.1572 Member ✭✭✭

    ArenaNet, sucking out the fun of your builds one patch at a time.
    When was the last time you read the balance patch and thought "that's awesome"? Yea i don't remember either.
    Melee front-end wvw Soulbeast COULD have been a thing, all it really needed was to have Leader of the pack trait to give allies 80% - 100% of the shout effectiveness on them, 50% is too low to be effective. the GS change pretty much gutted that potential option into oblivion.
    Welp, time to bench my rangers at least my benched holo will have some company.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sansar.1302 said:

    @Loboling.5293 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Nice job Anet.
    All of our melee weapons are basically trash now.

    Well it is called a Range-r. Maybe after 7 years, they realized what that meant...

    Sorry, please do go on. ;P

    @Loboling.5293 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Nice job Anet.
    All of our melee weapons are basically trash now.

    Well it is called a Range-r. Maybe after 7 years, they realized what that meant...

    Sorry, please do go on. ;P

    Ranger Regiment, Special Operations Command unit specializing in anti-guerrilla jungle warfare, raids, ambushes, close quarters combat, urban warfare and sabotage

    Why do People think Ranger = Ranged ok similar words but there ends the similarity.

    Because Ranger in GW2 is Hunter in other MMO. Because even in GW2 lore Ranger is represented with a Bow! Ranger = Hunter, and in most of the culture, hunter wear bow, or spear or a long tube with a small arrow (this kind of weapons are still used by some tribes in our time). A ranger = hunter usual use range weapons for hunt and dagger, sword axe for close combat or for peel the skin of animals.

  • Jaka.3182Jaka.3182 Member ✭✭

    I guess they tried to remove possibility to squeeze 2 seconds of evade from stoving 3rd part of aa. Tbf it is a little much but they should just repair it and not completely remove it.
    Its kindda anet logic thou... its ok for weavers to have almost perma evade and dealing 4-8k buning, its ok for dd staff thieves for perma evades, mirages with distortion on dodge etc... no, punish core rangers for toxic game play

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    so bug abusing now is called muscle memory

    It wasn't a bug fix. They were removing the "random evades" even though they weren't random.

  • BadSanta.6527BadSanta.6527 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    its time to put my main in the freeze... and the game on hold so tierd of that ranger nerfs all the time

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

    Do still need to get used to the changes though.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

    Do still need to get used to the changes though.

    Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

    Do still need to get used to the changes though.

    Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

    It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

    Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    In the case of a runner you still have access to swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500. The gap closing potential and ranged capabilities are still there in your build, just that 1 ranged skill isn’t now. Those are still lots of options I feel.

    I didn't say anything about a lack of gap closers. Without the cripple, we will have a hard time catching and STICKING to targets. We also lose the ability to slow down an enemy to prevent him from chasing an ally/getting to a point too fast.

    I made a melee improvement thread before and asked for a buff to GS 5. I'm not overly happy with GS changes, but our builds still have tools to get a ranged target that may be running away, chasing an ally or trying to get to a point. It would be no different than if the person you hit with old GS 4, up to 900 range, used a condi clear, because ranger does have tools for handling runners.

    I support your thoughts, and would rather GS be changed back, but to say we don't have to tools against runners isn't really true. I could support you and agreeing with the changes being kinda clunky, and really needing that evade on 1.3 we lost, but that ability to chase or maneuver isn't one of the gripes I personally would have with the build you are using.

    Core ranger needs love, much like every core profession, so it's not really new. Core builds got dumped on when E-Specs came about, so they need a lot of improvements to be on par.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    I am considering that you are joking. Because this should be a joke otherwise I don't know what to believe about you ...
    When we talk about how a weapon was nerfed, how badly is now and what is lost, only a newby can say "you can use the other weapons, other traits line, utilities, pets, build etc " ... maybe you want to say to that we could change the class too.
    Please, don't come with such kind of comments. Let's stick to the thread and weapon we talked about. Because we talk about what GS had and what doesn't have ANYMORE!

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @verskore.4312 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

    Do still need to get used to the changes though.

    Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

    It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

    Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    Hardly call GS 4 a damaging skill? By this comment alone you completely lost all credibility about ur knowledge of rangers. Crippling throw could do up to 6-7k damage and no, not even on a pure zerk build. What OP said is completely true, the GS 4 change is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Ppl with half a brain know the knockback will come so they'll back off the moment they block

    Yeah, Crippling Throw hits as hard as swoop, it has the same base damage and coefficient, are you going to tell me that swoop is a damage skill too? And the KB is available for about 5s after it flips over, that’s more than enough time to switch up the timing on your opponent so they don’t know exactly when you’re going to kick them, don’t be so predictable. > @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    Sorry, when I said it “wasn’t a damage skill” I was thinking more in line with “you’re not using this skill mainly for damage.” Not as in “it doesn’t do any damage”. We have many other options for fleeing targets ESPECIALLY if we’re running Soulbeast, it’s going to be missed for sure but I feel like the strength of the skill is being vastly blown out of proportion.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @verskore.4312 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

    Do still need to get used to the changes though.

    Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

    It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

    Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    Hardly call GS 4 a damaging skill? By this comment alone you completely lost all credibility about ur knowledge of rangers. Crippling throw could do up to 6-7k damage and no, not even on a pure zerk build. What OP said is completely true, the GS 4 change is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Ppl with half a brain know the knockback will come so they'll back off the moment they block

    Yeah, Crippling Throw hits as hard as swoop, it has the same base damage and coefficient, are you going to tell me that swoop is a damage skill too? And the KB is available for about 5s after it flips over, that’s more than enough time to switch up the timing on your opponent so they don’t know exactly when you’re going to kick them, don’t be so predictable. > @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    Sorry, when I said it “wasn’t a damage skill” I was thinking more in line with “you’re not using this skill mainly for damage.” Not as in “it doesn’t do any damage”. We have many other options for fleeing targets ESPECIALLY if we’re running Soulbeast, it’s going to be missed for sure but I feel like the strength of the skill is being vastly blown out of proportion.

    Ok, I'll stop arguing with you anymore, seems you just turn everything how you want, and you don't want to talk about the reality.
    I will say for the last time these:
    1. I specified clearly that we lost from GS4 1 damage skill who did more than 4k.
    2. After 2 days of playing only sPVP, I can say that in Gold rank and up, players can easily predict the kick of GS4. And this is not theory, is a fact!
    3. It is stupid to say that we have many other options for the fleeing target. We do not argue here about what a Ranger should do, or can do to chase an enemy! We talk about the Real Fact GS got a big nerf! When you get more "-" than "+" it's calling NERF.

    This is starting to be pointless when I see old players saying such stupid things ...

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @verskore.4312 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    It is definitely an overall nerf because 15 endurance doesn’t compensate for our 3rd auto still being a 1s cast. But I do agree that it does feel smoother overall.

    Do still need to get used to the changes though.

    Guys, you are amazed me ... it's not only about 3r auto evade who was removed, but also for losing a range hit, a cripple and a damage skill. As I said above, the GS4 now isn't a damage skill anymore like it was before, because most of the time 80-90% you don't have the time to kick the enemy. What feels smoother now? I don't get it ... Is it smooth because after a block on GS4 you can use the kick? This means smoother? When most of the time that kick doesn't hit the target because target is already out of the range zone?

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    A bit hyperbolic isn't it? I mean it's out for 2 days. Muscle memory needs some time to adapt. Atm I think it feels more fluid just not as evasive.
    With QD it's quite nice though. The double block channel is great.

    When you take out 4 things from a weapon and you give back only 1 useless 15 endurance, it means big nerf. It's not about to adapt. To adapt what? To adapt to a new style of fighting? You can't, because you don't have anymore the tools and they didn't replace old tools with something new, NO, they just give garbage things instead. The old block of GS could be used full duration by jumping. The kick was automatically, idd, but the new one is so predictable that it can be easily avoided. So what did they give us back for range hit with GS4, for Damage and Cripple on GS4? Nothing. You can say we must learn to adapt when you have something else who can (at least theoretically) compensate for what you lost.

    It’s smoother because it’s now a true block, you don’t have to jump around like a rabbit in an attempt to prevent the block ending by someone attacking you from too close.

    Also the kick is an evade now and not a very punishing (for the ranger) animation to just kick you while you’re already down because your block ended.

    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    Hardly call GS 4 a damaging skill? By this comment alone you completely lost all credibility about ur knowledge of rangers. Crippling throw could do up to 6-7k damage and no, not even on a pure zerk build. What OP said is completely true, the GS 4 change is just plain stupid and unnecessary. Ppl with half a brain know the knockback will come so they'll back off the moment they block

    Yeah, Crippling Throw hits as hard as swoop, it has the same base damage and coefficient, are you going to tell me that swoop is a damage skill too? And the KB is available for about 5s after it flips over, that’s more than enough time to switch up the timing on your opponent so they don’t know exactly when you’re going to kick them, don’t be so predictable. > @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    Sorry, when I said it “wasn’t a damage skill” I was thinking more in line with “you’re not using this skill mainly for damage.” Not as in “it doesn’t do any damage”. We have many other options for fleeing targets ESPECIALLY if we’re running Soulbeast, it’s going to be missed for sure but I feel like the strength of the skill is being vastly blown out of proportion.

    Ok, I'll stop arguing with you anymore, seems you just turn everything how you want, and you don't want to talk about the reality.
    I will say for the last time these:
    1. I specified clearly that we lost from GS4 1 damage skill who did more than 4k.
    2. After 2 days of playing only sPVP, I can say that in Gold rank and up, players can easily predict the kick of GS4. And this is not theory, is a fact!
    3. It is stupid to say that we have many other options for the fleeing target. We do not argue here about what a Ranger should do, or can do to chase an enemy! We talk about the Real Fact GS got a big nerf! When you get more "-" than "+" it's calling NERF.

    This is starting to be pointless when I see old players saying such stupid things ...

    I mean I never disagreed that this was an overall nerf to GS as a whole, I’ve said multiple times we are not getting properly compensated for the changes they did.

    I just like the overall new feeling of GS4, we absolutely need power put into the GS elsewhere though, I’m not disagreeing on that.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    I mean I never disagreed that this was an overall nerf to GS as a whole, I’ve said multiple times we are not getting properly compensated for the changes they did.

    I just like the overall new feeling of GS4, we absolutely need power put into the GS elsewhere though, I’m not disagreeing on that.

    I am sorry for misunderstanding you. But I am rly pissed off for what Aned did with 3 weapons of Ranger atm.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    I mean I never disagreed that this was an overall nerf to GS as a whole, I’ve said multiple times we are not getting properly compensated for the changes they did.

    I just like the overall new feeling of GS4, we absolutely need power put into the GS elsewhere though, I’m not disagreeing on that.

    I am sorry for misunderstanding you. But I am rly pissed off for what Aned did with 3 weapons of Ranger atm.

    It’s all good, at least dagger was buffed for sure, im still optimistic that sword is an overall buff and my muscle memory is just holding me back, im giving it more time before calling that one a nerf, since it’s definitely a damage buff.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    I am considering that you are joking. Because this should be a joke otherwise I don't know what to believe about you ...
    When we talk about how a weapon was nerfed, how badly is now and what is lost, only a newby can say "you can use the other weapons, other traits line, utilities, pets, build etc " ... maybe you want to say to that we could change the class too.
    Please, don't come with such kind of comments. Let's stick to the thread and weapon we talked about. Because we talk about what GS had and what doesn't have ANYMORE!

    Your can still do damage to someone running away.

    If the argument to the devs boils down to “we can’t chase targets now without the old throw on gs 4” it’s going to fail. Why? Because Ranger builds have access to movement skills and ranged weapons to get someone at range. See what I mean? You peeps are killing your own argument and not realizing.

  • aymnad.9023aymnad.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2019

    I tried it again tonight. Still feels like I am way too dependant on my allies. I am not the greatest in range (lots of counter options and mostly solo target dmg) and not able to hold in close combat. 1V1 feels really bad and I drop health for no reasons in chaotic teamfight. On paper it is a new playstyle (dodge, fight for endurance, dodge) but in practice it does not work. You cannot waste a dodge then just auto (just like you could not before) because you are super vulnerable. The new block is great for short fight or a defense burst. I definitely like blocking, hitting back, knockback/evade, then swoop for evade or gain distance. The lack of chase potential (on 4) forces me to go back to LB but so far I managed to deal with it (but if the enemy can turn around you will suddenly be vulnerable/dead).

    Ranger build for solo gameplay (what I mean is having some carry potential in fights + solo by holding nodes and participating in teamfight) seems to be boonbeast and I do not like this playstyle.
    So the question is what is going to be the playstyle of ranger? Sniper? People hated it (not for the good reasons but it deserved some nerfs) and it got nerfed so hard. Full close combat? Ranger cannot do it. Even boonbeast is a middle range combat. Mixt of close combat / range? That is what ranger seems best at. The problem is that swapping is very dangerous. Without any ability to sustain both styles and cds kind of close to the weapon swap you better not miss your timing.

    Someone joked today in PvP when an ally and I said ranger was nerfed and had the gazelle/smokescale left by saying "are you afraid to lose it ?" well yes X)

    Edit : what do you think if counterattack had 1s duration and a shorter cd than the current version (9s) ? (divided the duration by 3 because of the additional evade and potential talent cd reduction). I also liked @Runiir.6425 suggestion in another thread to increase auto dmg (because the animation is still too slow). I know I do not solve the identity issue of the GS auto but I think it will give way more options if you have good timings.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

    We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

    So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

    The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

    To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:

    1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
    2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
    3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

    I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is very bad at the moment.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

    We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

    So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

    The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

    To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:

    1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
    2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
    3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

    I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is very bad at the moment.

    Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

    We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

    So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

    The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

    To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:

    1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
    2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
    3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

    I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is very bad at the moment.

    Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

    I already explained that in my previous responses to you.

    The fact is, we lost the cripple entirely so the OPTION to slow an opponent down is gone. Hypothetically, what if they didn't cleanse it? Now, we'll never know.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

    We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

    So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

    The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

    To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:

    1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
    2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
    3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

    I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is very bad at the moment.

    Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

    I already explained that in my previous responses to you.

    The fact is, we lost the cripple entirely so the OPTION to slow an opponent down is gone. Hypothetically, what if they didn't cleanse it? Now, we'll never know.

    I'm honestly trying to be helpful. If you are presenting to the devs that you want a change then there has to be some better reasons than the ones listed. If you are telling a dev that you can't apply pressure on a ranged or running opponent, with the types of builds we run, they are probably not going to agree, or be sold on the idea.

    I wanted a buff to GS 5, that's it. I'm not sold on the changes either, but my reasons are different than yours. And if the reason is basically "ranged pressure, getting at a ranged target or preventing someone running is all messed up now", I don't think that's accurate or true. Now if this topic were about Necros, then I'm pretty sure we could all easily agree.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Durzlla.6295 said:
    And I’d hardly call Crippling Throw a “damage skill” it was a ranged cripple at best, and even then the only thing it had going for it was that it was on GS. We already have ample access to ranged cripple/chill, losing it on GS is hardly the end of the world. And if crippling throw is the only thing that’s somehow keeping these enemies from running away from you I’d highly recommend investing in a ranged weapon or some swiftness.

    >

    With Crippling Throw you could do more than 4k damage, so it was a real damage skill, many times was the ending hit for someone with low hp who is trying to run away.

    In the case of the GS/LB build you have options to deal with someone "running away". Soulbeast builds commonly use Owl for 1,200 Swoop, Smokescale for 750 range Smoke Assault and Gazelle 1,200 Charge. Plus GS 3. Plus all of LB...There are options to get a target at range.

    Dude that's not the issue. You keep saying the same stuff over and over again.

    We understand we have ways to CLOSE a gap. However, using a 1200 range leap simply because someone is slightly out of the range of your melee attacks or has speed runes/super speed is stupid. You will hit them with the leap and that's it. They will still be out of range afterwards.

    So, what are you supposed to do when you swap to greatsword and they start kiting? Barely hit them at all for 9 seconds until your longbow is back up?

    The issue is being unable to STICK to a target. Cripple and soft cc lets us do that. However, there's no way to chase someone down on greatsword anymore. We lost so much utility and gained NOTHING in return. The 3s block was possible before the barrage of recent nerfs simply by spamming jump while channeling gs4. In fact, the current knockback is even harder to hit than the old one. The evade barely makes an impact (if any at all) and it's extremely easy for an enemy to bait it out/out-range it/you to miss.

    To put it this way, here's the scenario and what you suggested we do:

    1. Someone has super speed/speed runes with swiftness and runs directly away from us when we swap to greatsword so we can't hit them.
    2. We proceed to use GS3, merge with our: Snow Owl and Swoop/Smokescale and Smoke Assault/Gazelle and Charge.
    3. We do 2k damage maybe if we crit and they're still out of range of our attacks afterward. However, now we have no way to disengage.

    I've been playing ranger (and every other class) at a high level for the past 7 years. I have a pretty good understanding of balance and what works/what doesn't. I correctly predicted the effect of nearly every single ranger change on the meta as well as suggested appropriate nerfs that actually fixed problem abilities (like reducing the weakness duration and make the proc from axe 3 dodgeable). When I say they killed greatsword and removed the skill ceiling completely, I meant it. This weapon is very bad at the moment.

    Hypothetical... Your opponent cleanses the cripple, so what are your options while they are chasing your friend or moving to a capture point, or just running away?

    I already explained that in my previous responses to you.

    The fact is, we lost the cripple entirely so the OPTION to slow an opponent down is gone. Hypothetically, what if they didn't cleanse it? Now, we'll never know.

    I'm honestly trying to be helpful. If you are presenting to the devs that you want a change then there has to be some better reasons than the ones listed. If you are telling a dev that you can't apply pressure on a ranged or running opponent, with the types of builds we run, they are probably not going to agree, or be sold on the idea.

    I wanted a buff to GS 5, that's it. I'm not sold on the changes either, but my reasons are different than yours. And if the reason is basically "ranged pressure, getting at a ranged target or preventing someone running is all messed up now", I don't think that's accurate or true. Now if this topic were about Necros, then I'm pretty sure we could all easily agree.

    I gotta side with Swagger on this, we have a ludicrous amount of mobility, and very strong range weapons, the argument of “our Melee weapon can’t exert ranged pressure” is almost definitely going to fall on deaf ears. Especially since we have pets who can patch up holes in our builds IE you need more control? Run a dog.

    Greatsword definitely needs some love after these changes, that’s for sure, but I’d personally rather have more power in its ability to go toe to toe with someone rather than to get a ranged attack back on the weapon.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    I was until yesterday in platinum, EU server. I am not very good, due to my age, lag, etc. Still platinum is not a lower rank either. I can say that GS is not anymore an option for sPVP if you want to level up more than gold I. GS + Longbow in both sPVP and WvW is no longer a viable solution.
    I don't know what rank @Durzlla.6295 and @Swagger.1459 have, but I am waiting for them to confirm 😊.
    I am playing now axe+axe/sword+warhorn. Surv/Nat/Soulb. The build it is pretty solid. Still I am missing my Gs/Lb with MM/Bm/Soulb.

  • BadSanta.6527BadSanta.6527 Member ✭✭✭

    gs is in bad place , and long bow as well in bad place. we all know that devs dont know what to do with ranger becuse they all play mesmer. even the elite spec of ranger are horrible and dosent have any connection to the core , like druid is maple story cleric really ?? dont even let me start to talk about the gimmice soulbeast . what ranger is trully need is new dev to be responde to ranger somone how will actully play the class

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    Despite the lack of auto evade and the loss of Crippling throw, the ability to block everything for 3s is amazing.

    Do we need one or both of those back? Yes. Am I mad things got changed? Yeah.

    That being said, having played it out, GS definitely has a different feel and yet still feels quite strong imo.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    “The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

    But OP uses...

    “I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

    And the above build has access to...

    “swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

    ...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    “The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

    But OP uses...

    “I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

    And the above build has access to...

    “swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

    ...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1063353/#Comment_1063353

    So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

    What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    “The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

    But OP uses...

    “I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

    And the above build has access to...

    “swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

    ...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1063353/#Comment_1063353

    So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

    What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

    You should focus on coming up with a compelling argument for the devs to consider.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    I was until yesterday in platinum, EU server. I am not very good, due to my age, lag, etc. Still platinum is not a lower rank either. I can say that GS is not anymore an option for sPVP if you want to level up more than gold I. GS + Longbow in both sPVP and WvW is no longer a viable solution.
    I don't know what rank @Durzlla.6295 and @Swagger.1459 have, but I am waiting for them to confirm 😊.
    I am playing now axe+axe/sword+warhorn. Surv/Nat/Soulb. The build it is pretty solid. Still I am missing my Gs/Lb with MM/Bm/Soulb

    The seasons I play in I sit in play, but given my current job I tend to play only a handful of games or miss seasons. Idk if that’s “high tier” to some standards or not though.

    I used to run GS, but not anymore since it’s literally no longer able to perform which is something I keep saying yet people seem to think otherwise since I’d rather get another change other than getting cripplingthroe back.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    “The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

    But OP uses...

    “I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

    And the above build has access to...

    “swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

    ...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1063353/#Comment_1063353

    So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

    What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

    The main problem with your argument (as is everyone’s argument) is we’re playing in this hypothetical scenario without any defined circumstances. First it was “people just run away from us” IE fleeing, so we can’t catch them, thus you’d swap to Longbow and gun the low health runner down, now it’s “as soon as I swap to Gs they begin to kite me.” Which swapping to LB would be bad for and GS without any cripple, immob, chill, etc is going to suck at since it can’t stick now. But crippling throw coming back wouldn’t even be the best option in this situation, a more consistent cripple would be, crippling throw coming back is just the laziest solution.

    I’d much rather have a cripple that lets me stick to the target in Melee range, whether it’s on swoop, or maul if Anet wants Gs to have limited sticking ability (due to people dodging the largely telegraphed skills), or on auto if they want all rangers Melee weapons (minus dagger mh) to be able to stick like glue.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Durzlla.6295 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    I was until yesterday in platinum, EU server. I am not very good, due to my age, lag, etc. Still platinum is not a lower rank either. I can say that GS is not anymore an option for sPVP if you want to level up more than gold I. GS + Longbow in both sPVP and WvW is no longer a viable solution.
    I don't know what rank @Durzlla.6295 and @Swagger.1459 have, but I am waiting for them to confirm 😊.
    I am playing now axe+axe/sword+warhorn. Surv/Nat/Soulb. The build it is pretty solid. Still I am missing my Gs/Lb with MM/Bm/Soulb

    The seasons I play in I sit in play, but given my current job I tend to play only a handful of games or miss seasons. Idk if that’s “high tier” to some standards or not though.

    I used to run GS, but not anymore since it’s literally no longer able to perform which is something I keep saying yet people seem to think otherwise since I’d rather get another change other than getting cripplingthroe back.

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    You can tell Durz and Swagger never fight actual top tier players just from their comments like shadow does on a regular basis against monthly AT winners and people who actually understand creating space, mobility in fights and how important it is.

    It's so funny to see, but sad at the same time because this is the state of PvP in this game. Also, do any of you 2 even actually play top tier pvp to even have a comment on actual skill play with GS / Sword? or just wvw roam? I'm guessing WvW roam.

    “The loss of Crippling Throw means that people can literally just run away from me and I can't catch them”

    But OP uses...

    “I use LB/GS and Smokescale/Gazelle.“

    And the above build has access to...

    “swoop 1,000, smoke assault 750, charge 1,200 and to longbow 1,200/1,500.”

    ...I’m sorry, but the devs won’t buy into the “I can’t catch them” complaint. If you want the old skill back then come up with better reasons to convince the team.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1063353/#Comment_1063353

    So you're saying the solution to someone kiting us as soon as we swap into greatsword is to swap into longbow?

    What about hitting them a single time with Swoop, Charge, or SA then continue to be unable to apply pressure?

    The main problem with your argument (as is everyone’s argument) is we’re playing in this hypothetical scenario without any defined circumstances. First it was “people just run away from us” IE fleeing, so we can’t catch them, thus you’d swap to Longbow and gun the low health runner down, now it’s “as soon as I swap to Gs they begin to kite me.” Which swapping to LB would be bad for and GS without any cripple, immob, chill, etc is going to suck at since it can’t stick now. But crippling throw coming back wouldn’t even be the best option in this situation, a more consistent cripple would be, crippling throw coming back is just the laziest solution.

    I’d much rather have a cripple that lets me stick to the target in Melee range, whether it’s on swoop, or maul if Anet wants Gs to have limited sticking ability (due to people dodging the largely telegraphed skills), or on auto if they want all rangers Melee weapons (minus dagger mh) to be able to stick like glue.

    Wvw build with LB \GS have fun: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POgAMFeaX7P7R8G-zVJYiRF/IIdWG1MC-w
    I haven't felt any difference, 10% of 3k is still 3k, been playing the same build for the last 4 years (nothing which feels better to move to).

    It is true I miss sometimes the throw from the GS, but I do like it better now as the block is consistent. I hated when the random kick would get me off from the block.
    The nerf to the auto was unwarranted and unnecessary imo; I agree after the nerf to the evade in the auto I would expect the 3rd auto chain to be faster. So the weapon wouldn't feel that clunky.

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭

    wanna write that without cripple on gs it pretty useless to chaising targets, but it was discussed)

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyric.7813 said:
    wanna write that without cripple on gs it pretty useless to chaising targets, but it was discussed)

    I think the cripple should be applied by trait in the Marksmanship traitline so that effect can be applied more consistenly in exchange for some sustain.
    Like adding 33% chance when crit to Alpha Focus.

  • Why was the change to GS4 made? Is this an "improvement" or a nerf? Did GS have too much utility, so throw was taken away?

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Cyric.7813 said:
    wanna write that without cripple on gs it pretty useless to chaising targets, but it was discussed)

    I think the cripple should be applied by trait in the Marksmanship traitline so that effect can be applied more consistenly in exchange for some sustain.
    Like adding 33% chance when crit to Alpha Focus.

    nah it s bad idea imo take the line for cripple, i dont like ms in pvp, add cripple to gs trait or base gs autoattack (dunno strike 1-2)