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WvW without Firebrand and Scourge Meta


Straegen.2938

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The large scale meta has been dominated by these two classes for far too long. They were OP in the beginning and still OP today. It is stale and has become boring. No single set of classes should dominate the meta forever yet here we are some variant of Guardian and some variant of Necro... same crap in a different wrapper since pre-release.

Firebrand and Scourge needs to get nerfed into the dirt for a while. Virtually every other class has seen balance patches that have completely eliminated them as a dominant force in the meta in one way or another (except mesmer but that is small scale). They have had their time.

As a side note, the same is true for sigils and runes. There are several key upgrade components run on these meta builds that need to get knocked down a peg or twelve.

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alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

i.e.

i find scrappers superior to fb as a raid lead and i'm just a new scrapper player.

also tempests is tanky has a lot of stab and is all rounder.

rangers can snipe from afar. a good ranger is difficult to fight against.

dd can single target kill bad players or stragglers along with the mewsmer.

rev has a shlong so long that the inspiration dwarf jalis is epic strong.

...

the hard part is not everyone has alt classes or gear. but i tell you if you got the character slots. exotic is enough. you can interchange your ascended trinkets and weapons. while working for your ascended. wvw gear per toon.

i wish a time will come where we can simple change professions on the go with one toon. but for now this is it.

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You cant nerf them out of meta because the inherent design of these classes shines in large scale battles. Best you can do is buff other classes to being op which they are doing. You just need to be creative with comps now and not follow what others have been doing, see what works for you.

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HM. For the Scourge I think we can hope. ANet can make an unexpected "balance tweak" for it and the Scourge can be as useful as a fifth wheel on a chariot.

But for Firebrand (Guardian)? No way. Absolutely no chance. The Guardian (with its variants Dragonhunter and Firebrand) avoided all the nerfs the other classes suffered. The core Guardian is one of the very few core classes having builds competing with the last specialization of other classes. And the Firebrand is still not at its peak. The (stubborn) Chronomancer is still alive, so it will be subject of nerfs again soon. And it should be replaced by something. By Firebrand? I think the firebrand lacks the boon sharing capacity of the old Chrono - and I think this will be one of the future buffs.

But with some "tweaks" on Engineer, the Scourge will be soon forgotten. The Engi already has barriers on some skills. By giving it the possibility to have more skills generating barriers and by making these barriers mobile AoE damaging the foes (10 allies moving) then the Scourge will lose it place. A - and the Engi should generate more Alacrity for the Firebrand and the others. Around 80% uptime in default builds/gear but no more than 100% with traits/runes/food.

And you can have what you want. No Scourges. The competitive game will be Guard+Engi vs Guard + Engi too (I think).You can pour 2-3 One Shot Rangers - for diversity and for taking the enemy Commander down and you can have the image of the future.

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@"Sovereign.1093" said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

The only class that can somewhat deal with firebrands? Yep you guessed it scourges.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

EDIT: Ill add that minstrel gear and monk runes exacerbate this problem exponentially.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

well we do run fb scourge, knowing it, you can counter it in particular instances.

the rev and spell breaker in that fb scourge makes a big difference.

fb scourge alone, is incomplete.

also theres the stealth mechanic and mounts.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

well we do run fb scourge, knowing it, you can counter it in particular instances.

the rev and spell breaker in that fb scourge makes a big difference.

Yea but the FB/scourge carries those other classes. Sure rev and spellbreaker can play roles well. But they could be substituted for other classes and you'd still get good results. Substituting your firebrands or your scourges (or both) would be like chopping off the wings on a plane and replacing them with hot air balloons. There's just nothing in the game that comes close to providing as much as the FB/Scourge combo.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

well we do run fb scourge, knowing it, you can counter it in particular instances.

the rev and spell breaker in that fb scourge makes a big difference.

Yea but the FB/scourge carries those other classes. Sure rev and spellbreaker can play roles well. But they could be substituted for other classes and you'd still get good results. Substituting your firebrands or your scourges (or both) would be like chopping off the wings on a plane and replacing them with hot air balloons. There's just nothing in the game that comes close to providing as much as the FB/Scourge combo.

actually we get by. :) if ppl in coms are responsive. surfing the zerg or blob becomes manageable.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:guard will always have a monopoly on stab and necro will always have a monopoly on boon rip cuz class identity and theme.this logic isn't compatible with competitive modes.

I like how they threw that out of the window with alacrity and chronomancer, which was a way more exclusive theme. But who cares about competitive balance when you have raids, right?

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

well we do run fb scourge, knowing it, you can counter it in particular instances.

the rev and spell breaker in that fb scourge makes a big difference.

Yea but the FB/scourge carries those other classes. Sure rev and spellbreaker can play roles well. But they could be substituted for other classes and you'd still get good results. Substituting your firebrands or your scourges (or both) would be like chopping off the wings on a plane and replacing them with hot air balloons. There's just nothing in the game that comes close to providing as much as the FB/Scourge combo.

actually we get by. :) if ppl in coms are responsive. surfing the zerg or blob becomes manageable.

Which again comes back to skill gap, and to reiterate, those cases where you get by with good coms, you would demolish the enemy if you were running scourge/FB.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

well we do run fb scourge, knowing it, you can counter it in particular instances.

the rev and spell breaker in that fb scourge makes a big difference.

Yea but the FB/scourge carries those other classes. Sure rev and spellbreaker can play roles well. But they could be substituted for other classes and you'd still get good results. Substituting your firebrands or your scourges (or both) would be like chopping off the wings on a plane and replacing them with hot air balloons. There's just nothing in the game that comes close to providing as much as the FB/Scourge combo.

actually we get by. :) if ppl in coms are responsive. surfing the zerg or blob becomes manageable.

Which again comes back to skill gap, and to reiterate, those cases where you get by with good coms, you would demolish the enemy if you were running scourge/FB.

mmm with our minstrel scourge and zerker fbs =)

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:Could you guys imagine a more diverse group of class compositions? IMAGINE if it were possible. Are we only going to be in the imagine phase though? It would certainly be the bees knees to see an eclectic mix of hodgepodge classes making a working group compo.

only a coordinated guild can do it. a group willing to break the mold. =p

leaving it to pugs? HA. HAHA. HAHAHA. ;)

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:alt group

engi ele rev war ranger thief mesmer

:/ its just that not many experiment.

mag had the right idea. but not yet refined into a squad lead cloud.

this is a player choice. got to step up with your guild and try new things.

also mercy runes really help. ppl need to understand downstate is a feature.

Players usually end up using the most overpowered things eventually. People do experiment, but they come to the same conclusion that many before them reached. Sure Support ele can work. Not as good as fire brand though. Sure Engie has access to some good AOE skills that deal good cleave damage. Not as good as scourge though.

So when these "experiments" come up against the current meta (FB/Scourge) they get demolished, unless the skill gap is disproportionately huge.

Firebrand and scourge combo is still way too strong, even after the balance patch. Personally I think FB is the main problem. Even in small scale if you come across 2 players and one of them is a firebrand, then you can kiss your aspirations of defeating them goodbye. Even if they're both inexperienced players it simply doesn't matter. The amount of boon spam and healing an FB puts out is ludicrous. Every time I fight a team running a support that isn't a firebrand I breath a sigh of relief. Because sure that support class will add some utility to the enemy that will make this a challenging fight. But a firebrand means the best outcome you can hope for is a stalemate.

mmm i have not met any group in any tier in na or eu to be invinsible. :/ unless blob.

it could simply be player mentality and habit.

Its not the players its the classes. If an equally skilled group thats not running FB/scourge comes across another equally skilled group that is, then GG meta wins every time.

If you claim to be defeating these classes in equal fights then great, you must be a hell of alot better than they are. If you swapped and ran the meta fb/scourges etc then you'd be winning a hell of alot quicker and more comfortably.

well we do run fb scourge, knowing it, you can counter it in particular instances.

the rev and spell breaker in that fb scourge makes a big difference.

Yea but the FB/scourge carries those other classes. Sure rev and spellbreaker can play roles well. But they could be substituted for other classes and you'd still get good results. Substituting your firebrands or your scourges (or both) would be like chopping off the wings on a plane and replacing them with hot air balloons. There's just nothing in the game that comes close to providing as much as the FB/Scourge combo.

actually we get by. :) if ppl in coms are responsive. surfing the zerg or blob becomes manageable.

Which again comes back to skill gap, and to reiterate, those cases where you get by with good coms, you would demolish the enemy if you were running scourge/FB.

mmm with our minstrel scourge and zerker fbs =)

Is that legal?

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@"Cristalyan.5728" said:HM. For the Scourge I think we can hope. ANet can make an unexpected "balance tweak" for it and the Scourge can be as useful as a fifth wheel on a chariot.

But for Firebrand (Guardian)? No way. Absolutely no chance. The Guardian (with its variants Dragonhunter and Firebrand) avoided all the nerfs the other classes suffered. The core Guardian is one of the very few core classes having builds competing with the last specialization of other classes. And the Firebrand is still not at its peak. The (stubborn) Chronomancer is still alive, so it will be subject of nerfs again soon. And it should be replaced by something. By Firebrand? I think the firebrand lacks the boon sharing capacity of the old Chrono - and I think this will be one of the future buffs.

But with some "tweaks" on Engineer, the Scourge will be soon forgotten. The Engi already has barriers on some skills. By giving it the possibility to have more skills generating barriers and by making these barriers mobile AoE damaging the foes (10 allies moving) then the Scourge will lose it place. A - and the Engi should generate more Alacrity for the Firebrand and the others. Around 80% uptime in default builds/gear but no more than 100% with traits/runes/food.

And you can have what you want. No Scourges. The competitive game will be Guard+Engi vs Guard + Engi too (I think).You can pour 2-3 One Shot Rangers - for diversity and for taking the enemy Commander down and you can have the image of the future.

You will never replace scourge with scrapper because scrapper cant corrupt or remove boons. I dont know what game you play, but scourges arent taken in blobs primarily for their barrier.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:HM. For the Scourge I think we can hope. ANet can make an unexpected "balance tweak" for it and the Scourge can be as useful as a fifth wheel on a chariot.

But for Firebrand (Guardian)? No way. Absolutely no chance. The Guardian (with its variants Dragonhunter and Firebrand) avoided all the nerfs the other classes suffered. The core Guardian is one of the very few core classes having builds competing with the last specialization of other classes. And the Firebrand is still not at its peak. The (stubborn) Chronomancer is still alive, so it will be subject of nerfs again soon. And it should be replaced by something. By Firebrand? I think the firebrand lacks the boon sharing capacity of the old Chrono - and I think this will be one of the future buffs.

But with some "tweaks" on Engineer, the Scourge will be soon forgotten. The Engi already has barriers on some skills. By giving it the possibility to have more skills generating barriers and by making these barriers mobile AoE damaging the foes (10 allies moving) then the Scourge will lose it place. A - and the Engi should generate more Alacrity for the Firebrand and the others. Around 80% uptime in default builds/gear but no more than 100% with traits/runes/food.

And you can have what you want. No Scourges. The competitive game will be Guard+Engi vs Guard + Engi too (I think).You can pour 2-3 One Shot Rangers - for diversity and for taking the enemy Commander down and you can have the image of the future.

You will never replace scourge with scrapper because scrapper cant corrupt or remove boons. I dont know what game you play, but scourges arent taken in blobs primarily for their barrier.

This is why I wrote "... and by making these barriers mobile AoE damaging the foes (10 allies moving) then the Scourge will lose it place.' So, the bombs will be there - doing damage, overlapping, as in the actual Scourge config.Indeed, I did not consider the boon corruption here, but a good balance team has several ways to deal with this, like:

  • raising the damage of the barriers high enough to pass over any defense you have from boons - so no need to corrupt.
  • A new tool kit for Engi for this purpose - let's say Used Oil Tool belt - corrupting boons. This will turn the Engi into something very close to the Scourge - but it is OK. It already has Alacrity. The thieves have Portals. Not something unusual for Anet.
  • Diminishing the capacity of the Scourge to corrupt boons and giving to the ..... core Guardian for example a new skill acting like the Null Field but for 10 targets and with a much lower CD.

An imaginative balance team can work miracles :# God save us!

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:HM. For the Scourge I think we can hope. ANet can make an unexpected "balance tweak" for it and the Scourge can be as useful as a fifth wheel on a chariot.

But for Firebrand (Guardian)? No way. Absolutely no chance. The Guardian (with its variants Dragonhunter and Firebrand) avoided all the nerfs the other classes suffered. The core Guardian is one of the very few core classes having builds competing with the last specialization of other classes. And the Firebrand is still not at its peak. The (stubborn) Chronomancer is still alive, so it will be subject of nerfs again soon. And it should be replaced by something. By Firebrand? I think the firebrand lacks the boon sharing capacity of the old Chrono - and I think this will be one of the future buffs.

But with some "tweaks" on Engineer, the Scourge will be soon forgotten. The Engi already has barriers on some skills. By giving it the possibility to have more skills generating barriers and by making these barriers mobile AoE damaging the foes (10 allies moving) then the Scourge will lose it place. A - and the Engi should generate more Alacrity for the Firebrand and the others. Around 80% uptime in default builds/gear but no more than 100% with traits/runes/food.

And you can have what you want. No Scourges. The competitive game will be Guard+Engi vs Guard + Engi too (I think).You can pour 2-3 One Shot Rangers - for diversity and for taking the enemy Commander down and you can have the image of the future.

You will never replace scourge with scrapper because scrapper cant corrupt or remove boons. I dont know what game you play, but scourges arent taken in blobs primarily for their barrier.

This is why I wrote "
... and by making these barriers mobile AoE damaging the foes (10 allies moving) then the Scourge will lose it place.
' So, the bombs will be there - doing damage, overlapping, as in the actual Scourge config.Indeed, I did not consider the boon corruption here, but a good balance team has several ways to deal with this, like:
  • raising the damage of the barriers high enough to pass over any defense you have from boons - so no need to corrupt.
  • A new tool kit for Engi for this purpose - let's say Used Oil Tool belt - corrupting boons. This will turn the Engi into something very close to the Scourge - but it is OK. It already has Alacrity. The thieves have Portals. Not something unusual for Anet.
  • Diminishing the capacity of the Scourge to corrupt boons and giving to the ..... core Guardian for example a new skill acting like the Null Field but for 10 targets and with a much lower CD.

An imaginative balance team can work miracles :# God save us!

I cant really keep up this discussion, sorry. One can only point out so many flaws

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:guard will always have a monopoly on stab and necro will always have a monopoly on boon rip cuz class identity and theme.

This is the default and it really should change. There is no reason ANet cannot upend this concept.

I would change all AoE skills to root a player while casting. This would open up far more counters in the current meta. Firebrands need a comprehensive overhaul so they aren't the entire backbone do-it-all of a zerg. That role should belong to multiple classes such as Warrior, Scrapper, etc.

Diversity should make a large group stronger not weaker. Narrowly built parties in large scale combat should have inherent weaknesses. As it is now a group can role solely with two classes and wreck. They can almost get away with just Guardian variants in some cases. It has been this way for far too long.

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@Straegen.2938 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:guard will always have a monopoly on stab and necro will always have a monopoly on boon rip cuz class identity and theme.

This is the default and it really should change. There is no reason ANet cannot upend this concept.

agreed. they sorta started to do this with spellbreaker boon rips and rev road stab, but it falls short. group stab is the sorta thing I think that a lot of classes should have a little access to, since its so important. that way each class can supplement to create the whole. boon rip is more exclusive and should remain that way to some degree. a little more here and there since it doesn't make sense to give it to some classes.

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