Difficulty of Raids - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Difficulty of Raids

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly?

    You said that in the quote that you responded to.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.

    You were asking for 3 difficulty tiers, the easy one would be were the beginners end up. (Beginner easy Dhuum?)

    Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check, challenge mote turns the boss to normal mode. Reduced magnitite. Gain random living world currency.

    In your opening post you were talking about having easy, normal and hard tiers.

    Maybe you shouldn't use easy/normal/hard to differentiate two completely separate things.

  • BrokenGlass.9356BrokenGlass.9356 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly?

    You said that in the quote that you responded to.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.

    You were asking for 3 difficulty tiers, the easy one would be were the beginners end up. (Beginner easy Dhuum?)

    Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check, challenge mote turns the boss to normal mode. Reduced magnitite. Gain random living world currency.

    In your opening post you were talking about having easy, normal and hard tiers.

    Maybe you shouldn't use easy/normal/hard to differentiate two completely separate things.

    You are taking my words, and extrapolating beyond thier literal meaning.

    Yes beginners are in easy mode. Most of them are still not ready for easy Dhuum. Like most raiders now aren't ready for Dhuum. But it would be a place where... When you are ready for Dhuum... You can fight him with reduced mechanics. Maybe you can smoke Demos and Xera, but still can't down Dhuum? Try easy mode untill you can...

    Afterthought edit: Heck, hard mode MO will be much easier than normal mode Dhuum.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly?

    You said that in the quote that you responded to.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.

    You were asking for 3 difficulty tiers, the easy one would be were the beginners end up. (Beginner easy Dhuum?)

    Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check, challenge mote turns the boss to normal mode. Reduced magnitite. Gain random living world currency.

    In your opening post you were talking about having easy, normal and hard tiers.

    Maybe you shouldn't use easy/normal/hard to differentiate two completely separate things.

    You are taking my words, and extrapolating beyond thier literal meaning.

    Yes beginners are in easy mode. Most of them are still not ready for easy Dhuum. Like most raiders now aren't ready for Dhuum. But it would be a place where... When you are ready for Dhuum... You can fight him with reduced mechanics. Maybe you can smoke Demos and Xera, but still can't down Dhuum? Try easy mode untill you can...

    That's a ton of wasted resources then.

    The main barrier into raids is actually developing a basic understanding for the game mode. Which can be summarized into:

    • develop an understanding for group synergy
    • develop an understanding for rotations
    • develop and understanding for roles
    • develop basic knowledge of your class

    Only after all of that do raid boss mechanics even come into play. Unless you have a guild which carries you while doing all of the above to ensure you stay motivated, which is one of the most common approaches for training guilds. It does not change the fact though that the basics MUST be learned first without ever learning even a single raid boss.

    Now as far as content which enables and encourages players to develop aformentioned skills, that would be helpful. Players who successfully raid wings 1-4 should already have a basic understanding of all of thse things (or pick any random amount of fights, I chose w1-4 since they are run the most and have become rather easy by now with all the power creep in place). The only thing they lack now is practice on for example Dhuum. That's why the current strike mission is only a partial disaster, because it could encourage players to want to become better at the game. The actual mechanics taught there are meaningless.

    Designing an easier fight so they can practice that only to practice AGAIN once they move up to normal makes no sense at all from a resources standpoint. Not only are you splitting the potential training player base onto now 2 fights (those who decide to directly practice on normal and those who practice on easy), but you are desiging an entire difficulty as a small stepping stone which people would stop using once they get to the "real" fight. That's a lot of wasted time and money.

    Sometimes I have a feeling that most players who have not started raiding have a completely incorrect idea of which skills they might be lacking and most have this assumption that if they could train the fights in easier versions to understand bosses, they would suddenly get ready for raids. That's so incorrect it almost hurts. Learning the boss mechanics is the LAST thing you need to focus on when going for raids. Getting the basics correct first is way more important.

    EXAMPLE:
    A friend of mine joined a guild group a few days ago (she is around 750 LI herself with every boss cleared at least 1nce). She and the second random were literally the only people with experience. The entire group was new and they were on their 3rd week of training on VG. She stuck around for close to 2 hours (mostly because the people were very friendly and she had a good time on voice with them). The group was literally learning as they went and the main problem they obviously had was lack of core performance because none of them ever bothered to look at any guides. They simple went in and started trying as a group. Suffice to say, that's probably the closest to how most old school raiders started raids as it gets. It also shows that FUNDAMENTALS are far more important than boss mechanics, since they were lacking in EVERY department from boons, to healing to damage.

    Most new raiders do not have to go through that difficult a process. Most can either join groups with experienced raiders, check builds, check guides, read up etc. The one thing which remains a constant though is: you HAVE to develop a raid mindset and understanding. Boss mechanics come after.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly?

    You said that in the quote that you responded to.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.

    You were asking for 3 difficulty tiers, the easy one would be were the beginners end up. (Beginner easy Dhuum?)

    Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check, challenge mote turns the boss to normal mode. Reduced magnitite. Gain random living world currency.

    In your opening post you were talking about having easy, normal and hard tiers.

    Maybe you shouldn't use easy/normal/hard to differentiate two completely separate things.

    You are taking my words, and extrapolating beyond thier literal meaning.

    Yes beginners are in easy mode. Most of them are still not ready for easy Dhuum. Like most raiders now aren't ready for Dhuum. But it would be a place where... When you are ready for Dhuum... You can fight him with reduced mechanics. Maybe you can smoke Demos and Xera, but still can't down Dhuum? Try easy mode untill you can...

    That's a ton of wasted resources then.

    The main barrier into raids is actually developing a basic understanding for the game mode. Which can be summarized into:

    • develop an understanding for group synergy
    • develop an understanding for rotations
    • develop and understanding for roles
    • develop basic knowledge of your class

    Only after all of that do raid boss mechanics even come into play. Unless you have a guild which carries you while doing all of the above to ensure you stay motivated, which is one of the most common approaches for training guilds. It does not change the fact though that the basics MUST be learned first without ever learning even a single raid boss.

    Now as far as content which enables and encourages players to develop aformentioned skills, that would be helpful. Players who successfully raid wings 1-4 should already have a basic understanding of all of thse things (or pick any random amount of fights, I chose w1-4 since they are run the most and have become rather easy by now with all the power creep in place). The only thing they lack now is practice on for example Dhuum. That's why the current strike mission is only a partial disaster, because it could encourage players to want to become better at the game. The actual mechanics taught there are meaningless.

    Designing an easier fight so they can practice that only to practice AGAIN once they move up to normal makes no sense at all from a resources standpoint. Not only are you splitting the potential training player base onto now 2 fights (those who decide to directly practice on normal and those who practice on easy), but you are desiging an entire difficulty as a small stepping stone which people would stop using once they get to the "real" fight. That's a lot of wasted time and money.

    Sometimes I have a feeling that most players who have not started raiding have a completely incorrect idea of which skills they might be lacking and most have this assumption that if they could train the fights in easier versions to understand bosses, they would suddenly get ready for raids. That's so incorrect it almost hurts. Learning the boss mechanics is the LAST thing you need to focus on when going for raids. Getting the basics correct first is way more important.

    EXAMPLE:
    A friend of mine joined a guild group a few days ago (she is around 750 LI herself with every boss cleared at least 1nce). She and the second random were literally the only people with experience. The entire group was new and they were on their 3rd week of training on VG. She stuck around for close to 2 hours (mostly because the people were very friendly and she had a good time on voice with them). The group was literally learning as they went and the main problem they obviously had was lack of core performance because none of them ever bothered to look at any guides. They simple went in and started trying as a group. Suffice to say, that's probably the closest to how most old school raiders started raids as it gets. It also shows that FUNDAMENTALS are far more important than boss mechanics, since they were lacking in EVERY department from boons, to healing to damage.

    Most new raiders do not have to go through that difficult a process. Most can either join groups with experienced raiders, check builds, check guides, read up etc. The one thing which remains a constant though is: you HAVE to develop a raid mindset and understanding. Boss mechanics come after.

    Fair enough. I still believe that stratification of difficulty per boss would be beneficial. I can't tell you the number of groups I've had, (from statics, to guilds, to pugs galore) where we all know our stuff, and we get that boss to 5% and wipe. Over and over. The enjoyment would have been instantly redeemed, through taking that nights raid to easy mode.

    Now I get it, the folks whose fingers never get tangled on the keys, probably have the view you do. But for the rest of us, where.... You know your rotation, you can hit the numbers on the golem, you know the mechanics, and you have a decent group.... And you can still sometimes hit the wrong button, fail to dodge, or what have you.

    The reduction in mechanics (however that presents per boss) is designed to give players one less thing to think about. Giving them mental bandwidth for more rotations, and proper play.

    The reduction in dps check, (more time before enrage, weaker enrage etc) is there to allow for a sloppier rotation to still function.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly?

    You said that in the quote that you responded to.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.

    You were asking for 3 difficulty tiers, the easy one would be were the beginners end up. (Beginner easy Dhuum?)

    Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check, challenge mote turns the boss to normal mode. Reduced magnitite. Gain random living world currency.

    In your opening post you were talking about having easy, normal and hard tiers.

    Maybe you shouldn't use easy/normal/hard to differentiate two completely separate things.

    You are taking my words, and extrapolating beyond thier literal meaning.

    Yes beginners are in easy mode. Most of them are still not ready for easy Dhuum. Like most raiders now aren't ready for Dhuum. But it would be a place where... When you are ready for Dhuum... You can fight him with reduced mechanics. Maybe you can smoke Demos and Xera, but still can't down Dhuum? Try easy mode untill you can...

    That's a ton of wasted resources then.

    The main barrier into raids is actually developing a basic understanding for the game mode. Which can be summarized into:

    • develop an understanding for group synergy
    • develop an understanding for rotations
    • develop and understanding for roles
    • develop basic knowledge of your class

    Only after all of that do raid boss mechanics even come into play. Unless you have a guild which carries you while doing all of the above to ensure you stay motivated, which is one of the most common approaches for training guilds. It does not change the fact though that the basics MUST be learned first without ever learning even a single raid boss.

    Now as far as content which enables and encourages players to develop aformentioned skills, that would be helpful. Players who successfully raid wings 1-4 should already have a basic understanding of all of thse things (or pick any random amount of fights, I chose w1-4 since they are run the most and have become rather easy by now with all the power creep in place). The only thing they lack now is practice on for example Dhuum. That's why the current strike mission is only a partial disaster, because it could encourage players to want to become better at the game. The actual mechanics taught there are meaningless.

    Designing an easier fight so they can practice that only to practice AGAIN once they move up to normal makes no sense at all from a resources standpoint. Not only are you splitting the potential training player base onto now 2 fights (those who decide to directly practice on normal and those who practice on easy), but you are desiging an entire difficulty as a small stepping stone which people would stop using once they get to the "real" fight. That's a lot of wasted time and money.

    Sometimes I have a feeling that most players who have not started raiding have a completely incorrect idea of which skills they might be lacking and most have this assumption that if they could train the fights in easier versions to understand bosses, they would suddenly get ready for raids. That's so incorrect it almost hurts. Learning the boss mechanics is the LAST thing you need to focus on when going for raids. Getting the basics correct first is way more important.

    EXAMPLE:
    A friend of mine joined a guild group a few days ago (she is around 750 LI herself with every boss cleared at least 1nce). She and the second random were literally the only people with experience. The entire group was new and they were on their 3rd week of training on VG. She stuck around for close to 2 hours (mostly because the people were very friendly and she had a good time on voice with them). The group was literally learning as they went and the main problem they obviously had was lack of core performance because none of them ever bothered to look at any guides. They simple went in and started trying as a group. Suffice to say, that's probably the closest to how most old school raiders started raids as it gets. It also shows that FUNDAMENTALS are far more important than boss mechanics, since they were lacking in EVERY department from boons, to healing to damage.

    Most new raiders do not have to go through that difficult a process. Most can either join groups with experienced raiders, check builds, check guides, read up etc. The one thing which remains a constant though is: you HAVE to develop a raid mindset and understanding. Boss mechanics come after.

    Fair enough. I still believe that stratification of difficulty per boss would be beneficial. I can't tell you the number of groups I've had, (from statics, to guilds, to pugs galore) where we all know our stuff, and we get that boss to 5% and wipe. Over and over. The enjoyment would have been instantly redeemed, through taking that nights raid to easy mode.

    Now I get it, the folks whose fingers never get tangled on the keys, probably have the view you do. But for the rest of us, where.... You know your rotation, you can hit the numbers on the golem, you know the mechanics, and you have a decent group.... And you can still sometimes hit the wrong button, fail to dodge, or what have you.

    The reduction in mechanics (however that presents per boss) is designed to give players one less thing to think about. Giving them mental bandwidth for more rotations, and proper play.

    The reduction in dps check, (more time before enrage, weaker enrage etc) is there to allow for a sloppier rotation to still function.

    I fully get where you are coming from, I even consider the idea to maybe add raid bosses to the training golem as useful. Both from maybe a reduction in resources in developing this content, impementing it lore wise as well as allowing for maybe deactivation of specific mechanics (not sure how hard it would be to simply uncheck a mechanic and not have it trigger).

    This would even allow more experienced players to train and practice things, so it's an overall useful tool.

    The harsh reality for raids and instanced content currently is: there is finite resources, and even those are already stretched way to thin.

    If I had to get as many players as possible raid ready right now (or at least semi in touch with their class), I would take the approach (and I have mentioned this idea in the past): make a story mission which REQUIRES players deal with certain mechanics but also TELL players how to deal with them, maybe via a voice line or ingame text. We have way to many story missions where something along these lines is/was tried, but never proper explanations to go along with them. Most players either stumble through, turn to outside help or simply do not complete the content.

    World of Warcraft had something similar for dungeons with their proving grounds.

    Some possible training scenarios would be:

    • Have an enemy regenerate health constantly but require 5k, 10k and/or 15k dps (a rather easy thing to implement, just have the npc challenge the player and let each player pick a difficulty). Then actually tell the player how much damage he is doing. Have the enemy only do very little damage as to not kill players
    • for break bars, simply make players have to break them. This was tried with the Eater of Souls, but done way to much in context of the story. Make it break bars on objects which do not fight back, so players can focus on this 1 thing alone. Then have an NPC explain to the player what he has to do and for which skills he should look
    • healing could be done in multiple ways, either have players heal through damage, heal npcs or
    • for dodging, make it a trap room. Exactly tell players they need to dodge through the traps, provide them with permanent vigor (and maybe explain vigor while at it). Make it easy dodges, but if the player fails he restarts at the room entrance. Use common visual queues like red fields to indicate where dangerous areas are.
    • boon corrupts would be more difficult and would likely require a special action key since not all classes have access to boons. Perfect time to also introduce the special action key. Have an NPC explain to the player that he has to use the special action key on the enemy to remove/corrupt the boons

    and ideally have EVERYTHING with voice lines (think Hitman 1 training area) communicated to players.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    Who said the hardest boss should be beginner friendly?

    You said that in the quote that you responded to.

    Easy: here is where you start raiding. The community formed around this content, would end up with all the beginners.

    You were asking for 3 difficulty tiers, the easy one would be were the beginners end up. (Beginner easy Dhuum?)

    Easy mode- reduced mechanics and dps check, challenge mote turns the boss to normal mode. Reduced magnitite. Gain random living world currency.

    In your opening post you were talking about having easy, normal and hard tiers.

    Maybe you shouldn't use easy/normal/hard to differentiate two completely separate things.

    You are taking my words, and extrapolating beyond thier literal meaning.

    Yes beginners are in easy mode. Most of them are still not ready for easy Dhuum. Like most raiders now aren't ready for Dhuum. But it would be a place where... When you are ready for Dhuum... You can fight him with reduced mechanics. Maybe you can smoke Demos and Xera, but still can't down Dhuum? Try easy mode untill you can...

    That's a ton of wasted resources then.

    The main barrier into raids is actually developing a basic understanding for the game mode. Which can be summarized into:

    • develop an understanding for group synergy
    • develop an understanding for rotations
    • develop and understanding for roles
    • develop basic knowledge of your class

    Only after all of that do raid boss mechanics even come into play. Unless you have a guild which carries you while doing all of the above to ensure you stay motivated, which is one of the most common approaches for training guilds. It does not change the fact though that the basics MUST be learned first without ever learning even a single raid boss.

    Now as far as content which enables and encourages players to develop aformentioned skills, that would be helpful. Players who successfully raid wings 1-4 should already have a basic understanding of all of thse things (or pick any random amount of fights, I chose w1-4 since they are run the most and have become rather easy by now with all the power creep in place). The only thing they lack now is practice on for example Dhuum. That's why the current strike mission is only a partial disaster, because it could encourage players to want to become better at the game. The actual mechanics taught there are meaningless.

    Designing an easier fight so they can practice that only to practice AGAIN once they move up to normal makes no sense at all from a resources standpoint. Not only are you splitting the potential training player base onto now 2 fights (those who decide to directly practice on normal and those who practice on easy), but you are desiging an entire difficulty as a small stepping stone which people would stop using once they get to the "real" fight. That's a lot of wasted time and money.

    Sometimes I have a feeling that most players who have not started raiding have a completely incorrect idea of which skills they might be lacking and most have this assumption that if they could train the fights in easier versions to understand bosses, they would suddenly get ready for raids. That's so incorrect it almost hurts. Learning the boss mechanics is the LAST thing you need to focus on when going for raids. Getting the basics correct first is way more important.

    EXAMPLE:
    A friend of mine joined a guild group a few days ago (she is around 750 LI herself with every boss cleared at least 1nce). She and the second random were literally the only people with experience. The entire group was new and they were on their 3rd week of training on VG. She stuck around for close to 2 hours (mostly because the people were very friendly and she had a good time on voice with them). The group was literally learning as they went and the main problem they obviously had was lack of core performance because none of them ever bothered to look at any guides. They simple went in and started trying as a group. Suffice to say, that's probably the closest to how most old school raiders started raids as it gets. It also shows that FUNDAMENTALS are far more important than boss mechanics, since they were lacking in EVERY department from boons, to healing to damage.

    Most new raiders do not have to go through that difficult a process. Most can either join groups with experienced raiders, check builds, check guides, read up etc. The one thing which remains a constant though is: you HAVE to develop a raid mindset and understanding. Boss mechanics come after.

    Fair enough. I still believe that stratification of difficulty per boss would be beneficial. I can't tell you the number of groups I've had, (from statics, to guilds, to pugs galore) where we all know our stuff, and we get that boss to 5% and wipe. Over and over. The enjoyment would have been instantly redeemed, through taking that nights raid to easy mode.

    Now I get it, the folks whose fingers never get tangled on the keys, probably have the view you do. But for the rest of us, where.... You know your rotation, you can hit the numbers on the golem, you know the mechanics, and you have a decent group.... And you can still sometimes hit the wrong button, fail to dodge, or what have you.

    The reduction in mechanics (however that presents per boss) is designed to give players one less thing to think about. Giving them mental bandwidth for more rotations, and proper play.

    The reduction in dps check, (more time before enrage, weaker enrage etc) is there to allow for a sloppier rotation to still function.

    I fully get where you are coming from, I even consider the idea to maybe add raid bosses to the training golem as useful. Both from maybe a reduction in resources in developing this content, impementing it lore wise as well as allowing for maybe deactivation of specific mechanics (not sure how hard it would be to simply uncheck a mechanic and not have it trigger).

    This would even allow more experienced players to train and practice things, so it's an overall useful tool.

    The harsh reality for raids and instanced content currently is: there is finite resources, and even those are already stretched way to thin.

    If I had to get as many players as possible raid ready right now (or at least semi in touch with their class), I would take the approach (and I have mentioned this idea in the past): make a story mission which REQUIRES players deal with certain mechanics but also TELL players how to deal with them, maybe via a voice line or ingame text. We have way to many story missions where something along these lines is/was tried, but never proper explanations to go along with them. Most players either stumble through, turn to outside help or simply do not complete the content.

    World of Warcraft had something similar for dungeons with their proving grounds.

    Some possible training scenarios would be:

    • Have an enemy regenerate health constantly but require 5k, 10k and/or 15k dps (a rather easy thing to implement, just have the npc challenge the player and let each player pick a difficulty). Then actually tell the player how much damage he is doing. Have the enemy only do very little damage as to not kill players
    • for break bars, simply make players have to break them. This was tried with the Eater of Souls, but done way to much in context of the story. Make it break bars on objects which do not fight back, so players can focus on this 1 thing alone. Then have an NPC explain to the player what he has to do and for which skills he should look
    • healing could be done in multiple ways, either have players heal through damage, heal npcs or
    • for dodging, make it a trap room. Exactly tell players they need to dodge through the traps, provide them with permanent vigor (and maybe explain vigor while at it). Make it easy dodges, but if the player fails he restarts at the room entrance. Use common visual queues like red fields to indicate where dangerous areas are.
    • boon corrupts would be more difficult and would likely require a special action key since not all classes have access to boons. Perfect time to also introduce the special action key. Have an NPC explain to the player that he has to use the special action key on the enemy to remove/corrupt the boons

    and ideally have EVERYTHING with voice lines (think Hitman 1 training area) communicated to players.

    Honestly, I love everything here. I'd like to see both ideas implemented.

    I understand the idea of stretched resources, but I just don't care. Anet will, or won't do as they please, and so... What they can and can't do just doesn't get involved in my wishlisting.

    I'm sort of trepidations about bosses at the training golem... Mainly because I don't want to go and organize to fight a boss for zero rewards. Hence my original idea of an "easy" mode boss... You still get some rewards. And, training solo against a boss hologram seems... Alot less than fun. (although I do understand the idea of rotation practice on a target that phases at all the same times, and whatnot.) I see how this could cover the compromise conceptually... But it doesn't feel anywhere as good.

    But buffing the training area, would be a raid tutorial. (which I could totally support) but difficulty tiers, allows community stratification. I feel like the number of people I encounter who are supremely toxic is much higher in raids. Even T3 and 4 fractals have always seemed like a safe haven compared to the hell of pugging raids. (and yes, if you want to not suffer... Don't pug.)

    But I think the existence of the climate needs addressing. And the climate exists, mostly due to interactions between the folks who are skilled, and those who are not.

    So, as I've said before, I don't claim to have the answer... I just have ideas. And if we can come up with ways to reduce the toxicity without stepping on anyone's fun... Then all the better.

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