ANET - Aquatic Ruins needs a serious look at (broken underwater combat) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

ANET - Aquatic Ruins needs a serious look at (broken underwater combat)

This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

  • Rayti.6531Rayti.6531 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

    They didn't, since we are talking about a Fractal that has been reworked just recently.

    @Dark.1823 said:
    This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

    Difficulty is highly subjective. Just because someone finds that Frac easy on T4, doesn't mean he/she is a troll.

    My "static group" did this fractal on T4 for the first time today. We died twice at the boss before we decided to stick together during the "split phases", then it worked (since people then actually were in Condi Remove range). Healed on Tempest, Harriers, All Shouts. If you really need more Condi Remove you could also swap to Trooper Runes for this Frac - I just stuck to Monks.

    Guess at the time sticking to the other half of healing specs which aren't broken is the way to go, but I definitely agree that underwater combat needs an overhaul/serious fixing/rebalancing of certain classes.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    @Rayti.6531 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

    They didn't, since we are talking about a Fractal that has been reworked just recently.

    @Dark.1823 said:
    This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

    Difficulty is highly subjective. Just because someone finds that Frac easy on T4, doesn't mean he/she is a troll.

    My "static group" did this fractal on T4 for the first time today. We died twice at the boss before we decided to stick together during the "split phases", then it worked (since people then actually were in Condi Remove range). Healed on Tempest, Harriers, All Shouts. If you really need more Condi Remove you could also swap to Trooper Runes for this Frac - I just stuck to Monks.

    Guess at the time sticking to the other half of healing specs which aren't broken is the way to go, but I definitely agree that underwater combat needs an overhaul/serious fixing/rebalancing of certain classes.

    Every class has condition removal skills. I don't see how there's an issue if people are forcing a role to be handled solely by one player when the encounter likely wasn't designed to be that way. This isn't raids.

    I'd personally look at whether some instabilities are over the top for some fractals, and whether all players can do something to prepare better, than blame it on broken underwater combat. That's not to say improvements can't be made.

    Video of fractal being done without druid. Boss starts at 1:22:42. Based on the DPS, I'd say they're using a healbrand despite the OP saying it doesn't work.

  • Dark.1823Dark.1823 Member ✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Rayti.6531 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

    They didn't, since we are talking about a Fractal that has been reworked just recently.

    @Dark.1823 said:
    This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

    Difficulty is highly subjective. Just because someone finds that Frac easy on T4, doesn't mean he/she is a troll.

    My "static group" did this fractal on T4 for the first time today. We died twice at the boss before we decided to stick together during the "split phases", then it worked (since people then actually were in Condi Remove range). Healed on Tempest, Harriers, All Shouts. If you really need more Condi Remove you could also swap to Trooper Runes for this Frac - I just stuck to Monks.

    Guess at the time sticking to the other half of healing specs which aren't broken is the way to go, but I definitely agree that underwater combat needs an overhaul/serious fixing/rebalancing of certain classes.

    Every class has condition removal skills. I don't see how there's an issue if people are forcing a role to be handled solely by one player when the encounter likely wasn't designed to be that way. This isn't raids.

    I'd personally look at whether some instabilities are over the top for some fractals, and whether all players can do something to prepare better, than blame it on broken underwater combat. That's not to say improvements can't be made.

    Most classes have a long cooldown for condition removal (if they even have condition removal underwater) that simply can't keep up with the condition stacking during each phase. The point is that this fractal is too difficult and can only be completed with a specific setup because underwater combat is so broken. Druid is probably the most broken class for underwater combat which is why I mentioned it. Nobody even knows how the avatar works underwater. Wiki is wrong about skills being cast around the player. The skills are clearly targeting something but there is no indication what or how it's targeting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The problem lies in the fact that some of them require ground targeting but because there is no "ground" underwater, they seemingly land in random locations.

    The only solution for this that I see is to adjust the fractal as I can't imagine ANet ever fixing underwater combat.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2019

    Honestly I think it's fine and people are just too lazy to make decent underwater builds/adjust their existing builds.
    There is plenty of things you can play that blasts through this fractal.
    Plenty of specs can pull 30k+ DPS underwater and I can from personal experience say Healbrand works perfectly fine for the Fractal too, especially with some minor adjustments, as well as Alacrigade, which can be especially useful for spamming Road on Dwarf.

    I can however concede that Afflicted maybe needs a look at for this Fractal, as that really is the only thing causing major issues to especially lesser proficient players/groups whenever that is up.

    @Dark.1823 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Rayti.6531 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

    They didn't, since we are talking about a Fractal that has been reworked just recently.

    @Dark.1823 said:
    This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

    Difficulty is highly subjective. Just because someone finds that Frac easy on T4, doesn't mean he/she is a troll.

    My "static group" did this fractal on T4 for the first time today. We died twice at the boss before we decided to stick together during the "split phases", then it worked (since people then actually were in Condi Remove range). Healed on Tempest, Harriers, All Shouts. If you really need more Condi Remove you could also swap to Trooper Runes for this Frac - I just stuck to Monks.

    Guess at the time sticking to the other half of healing specs which aren't broken is the way to go, but I definitely agree that underwater combat needs an overhaul/serious fixing/rebalancing of certain classes.

    Every class has condition removal skills. I don't see how there's an issue if people are forcing a role to be handled solely by one player when the encounter likely wasn't designed to be that way. This isn't raids.

    I'd personally look at whether some instabilities are over the top for some fractals, and whether all players can do something to prepare better, than blame it on broken underwater combat. That's not to say improvements can't be made.

    Most classes have a long cooldown for condition removal (if they even have condition removal underwater) that simply can't keep up with the condition stacking during each phase. The point is that this fractal is too difficult and can only be completed with a specific setup because underwater combat is so broken. Druid is probably the most broken class for underwater combat which is why I mentioned it. Nobody even knows how the avatar works underwater. Wiki is wrong about skills being cast around the player. The skills are clearly targeting something but there is no indication what or how it's targeting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The problem lies in the fact that some of them require ground targeting but because there is no "ground" underwater, they seemingly land in random locations.

    The only solution for this that I see is to adjust the fractal as I can't imagine ANet ever fixing underwater combat.

    Again, that condition pressure mostly is just Afflicted having some bad interactions with the frequency of attacks in the Fractal, as well as the plentitude of adds, which can be an issue without sufficient cleave (which considering pugs don't even seem to grasp the importance of cleaving adds, especially with instabs like afflicted, on land, would probably be a massive issue underwater).
    Same applies to stacking. It's imo a l2p issue, and the Fractal is fine.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I'd say they're using a healbrand despite the OP saying it doesn't work.

    It's actually fantastic for this Fractal, especially Mantra of Lore is great there with Afflicted.
    Condition Quickbrand is also great here, can still bring Mantra of Lore, all while doing ~33k DPS, with plenty of Tome resets from adds.

    The problems come in to play when people go in there not even knowing what their underwater skills do, let alone how to adjust copied builds to be effective in that setting, which can sometimes be as little as swapping one or two Traits and a utility skill.

    Then you get situations where the whole group does less DPS than what one player should provide, with obviously in turn makes the phases take forever, which with Instabilities like Afflicted means eventually succumbing to the condition pressure as cleanses can't keep up.
    Couple that with NPNG and no boon strip, and you got a boss with perma protection on top of the low dps, as well as 25 Might, and things are bound to go wrong.

    But again, that's all l2p, and not issues with the Fractal.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Dark.1823Dark.1823 Member ✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Honestly I think it's fine and people are just too lazy to make decent underwater builds/adjust their existing builds.
    There is plenty of things you can play that blasts through this fractal.
    Plenty of specs can pull 30k+ DPS underwater and I can from personal experience say Healbrand works perfectly fine for the Fractal too, especially with some minor adjustments, as well as Alacrigade, which can be especially useful for spamming Road on Dwarf.

    I can however concede that Afflicted maybe needs a look at for this Fractal, as that really is the only thing causing major issues to especially lesser proficient players/groups whenever that is up.

    @Dark.1823 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Rayti.6531 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

    They didn't, since we are talking about a Fractal that has been reworked just recently.

    @Dark.1823 said:
    This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

    Difficulty is highly subjective. Just because someone finds that Frac easy on T4, doesn't mean he/she is a troll.

    My "static group" did this fractal on T4 for the first time today. We died twice at the boss before we decided to stick together during the "split phases", then it worked (since people then actually were in Condi Remove range). Healed on Tempest, Harriers, All Shouts. If you really need more Condi Remove you could also swap to Trooper Runes for this Frac - I just stuck to Monks.

    Guess at the time sticking to the other half of healing specs which aren't broken is the way to go, but I definitely agree that underwater combat needs an overhaul/serious fixing/rebalancing of certain classes.

    Every class has condition removal skills. I don't see how there's an issue if people are forcing a role to be handled solely by one player when the encounter likely wasn't designed to be that way. This isn't raids.

    I'd personally look at whether some instabilities are over the top for some fractals, and whether all players can do something to prepare better, than blame it on broken underwater combat. That's not to say improvements can't be made.

    Most classes have a long cooldown for condition removal (if they even have condition removal underwater) that simply can't keep up with the condition stacking during each phase. The point is that this fractal is too difficult and can only be completed with a specific setup because underwater combat is so broken. Druid is probably the most broken class for underwater combat which is why I mentioned it. Nobody even knows how the avatar works underwater. Wiki is wrong about skills being cast around the player. The skills are clearly targeting something but there is no indication what or how it's targeting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The problem lies in the fact that some of them require ground targeting but because there is no "ground" underwater, they seemingly land in random locations.

    The only solution for this that I see is to adjust the fractal as I can't imagine ANet ever fixing underwater combat.

    Again, that condition pressure mostly is just Afflicted having some bad interactions with the frequency of attacks in the Fractal, as well as the plentitude of adds, which can be an issue without sufficient cleave (which considering pugs don't even seem to grasp the importance of cleaving adds, especially with instabs like afflicted, on land, would probably be a massive issue underwater).
    Same applies to stacking. It's imo a l2p issue, and the Fractal is fine.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I'd say they're using a healbrand despite the OP saying it doesn't work.

    It's actually fantastic for this Fractal, especially Mantra of Lore is great there with Afflicted.
    Condition Quickbrand is also great here, can still bring Mantra of Lore, all while doing ~33k DPS, with plenty of Tome resets from adds.

    The problems come in to play when people go in there not even knowing what their underwater skills do, let alone how to adjust copied builds to be effective in that setting, which can sometimes be as little as swapping one or two Traits and a utility skill.

    Then you get situations where the whole group does less DPS than what one player should provide, with obviously in turn makes the phases take forever, which with Instabilities like Afflicted means eventually succumbing to the condition pressure as cleanses can't keep up.
    Couple that with NPNG and no boon strip, and you got a boss with perma protection on top of the low dps, as well as 25 Might, and things are bound to go wrong.

    But again, that's all l2p, and not issues with the Fractal.

    You're making it sound too easy and you missed the main point of literally broken combat & skills. Until they decide to fix underwater combat, they should at least temporarily nerf this fractal.

    Even if everyone stacks together, even if you have lots of cleave, even if you have amazing dps, you still need a very good healer. The issue aren't even the adds that you mentioned, it's the degeneration at each boss phase. Remember how people complained about Siren's Reef being too difficult? Well Siren's Reef is easy for me and a lot easier than Aquatic Ruins. It doesn't mean Siren's Reef is easy for everyone, it just means I'm highly experienced in it. Aquatic Ruins is different in that it's not experience that you need to do it but the right healing class and the right player to play that class. Why? Because underwater combat is broken. As I've said, Druid doesn't work underwater at all, HB's struggle in pugs a lot and fail most of the time. Yes I know I said it doesn't work at all and that's because most HB's have literally said they cannot heal underwater. First phase is already hard for them and then the consecutive phases just get worse. Phase 3 is usually at the point where you need to rely on luck to make it through. Heal Renegade works great but now we're entering elitist territory of demanding class specific healers. See where I'm going with this? This is the only fractal that requires specific classes to heal. This is not good for the game nor for the community. This fractal used to be easy. So easy it was literally a walk in the park and it needed an increase in difficulty but not the difficulty spike that we received. They've turned it up on the difficulty scale from 1 up to 11. Not the right way of doing things IMO.

    Underwater combat needs either a rework or they need to adjust this fractal for the broken combat as a workaround. Now imagine if you end up with stacking damage instabilities on top of this fractals mechanic. It would be a nightmare. That's what happened with Siren's Reef before. Frailty, Outflanked and We Bleed Fire are the worst combination I ever had the displeasure of experiencing in what was at the time known as the worst fractal.

    I'm not even asking for a lot. They can keep all the mechanics and stuff in place. Just get rid of the degeneration during each phase where you have to kill the Elite Krait.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Dark.1823 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Honestly I think it's fine and people are just too lazy to make decent underwater builds/adjust their existing builds.
    There is plenty of things you can play that blasts through this fractal.
    Plenty of specs can pull 30k+ DPS underwater and I can from personal experience say Healbrand works perfectly fine for the Fractal too, especially with some minor adjustments, as well as Alacrigade, which can be especially useful for spamming Road on Dwarf.

    I can however concede that Afflicted maybe needs a look at for this Fractal, as that really is the only thing causing major issues to especially lesser proficient players/groups whenever that is up.

    @Dark.1823 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Rayti.6531 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I wonder how people did that fractal before elite specs...

    They didn't, since we are talking about a Fractal that has been reworked just recently.

    @Dark.1823 said:
    This fractal obviously didn't get enough testing done (if any at all). Underwater combat is completely broken. Over half of the healing specs don't even work underwater and this fractal REQUIRES HEALING or insane condi removal to complete due to the insane condition spam during each phase. Why is Druid avatar able to use skills underwater when they don't work properly? It makes no sense. Druid doesn't function at all underwater. The healing just doesn't hit anyone more than half the time. HB doesn't work underwater at all either. This is obviously broken. Either fix the classes so they function underwater or fix the fractal. You didn't even bother to remove the old mechanics. They're literally just sitting there useless as decorations. Clean up this mess and stop turning fractals into Raids. It's the only content we have that resembles dungeons that isn't overrun by elitists yet. Before any trolls say that this fractal is easy, I am specifically talking about Tier 4 here, not Tier 1.

    Difficulty is highly subjective. Just because someone finds that Frac easy on T4, doesn't mean he/she is a troll.

    My "static group" did this fractal on T4 for the first time today. We died twice at the boss before we decided to stick together during the "split phases", then it worked (since people then actually were in Condi Remove range). Healed on Tempest, Harriers, All Shouts. If you really need more Condi Remove you could also swap to Trooper Runes for this Frac - I just stuck to Monks.

    Guess at the time sticking to the other half of healing specs which aren't broken is the way to go, but I definitely agree that underwater combat needs an overhaul/serious fixing/rebalancing of certain classes.

    Every class has condition removal skills. I don't see how there's an issue if people are forcing a role to be handled solely by one player when the encounter likely wasn't designed to be that way. This isn't raids.

    I'd personally look at whether some instabilities are over the top for some fractals, and whether all players can do something to prepare better, than blame it on broken underwater combat. That's not to say improvements can't be made.

    Most classes have a long cooldown for condition removal (if they even have condition removal underwater) that simply can't keep up with the condition stacking during each phase. The point is that this fractal is too difficult and can only be completed with a specific setup because underwater combat is so broken. Druid is probably the most broken class for underwater combat which is why I mentioned it. Nobody even knows how the avatar works underwater. Wiki is wrong about skills being cast around the player. The skills are clearly targeting something but there is no indication what or how it's targeting. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The problem lies in the fact that some of them require ground targeting but because there is no "ground" underwater, they seemingly land in random locations.

    The only solution for this that I see is to adjust the fractal as I can't imagine ANet ever fixing underwater combat.

    Again, that condition pressure mostly is just Afflicted having some bad interactions with the frequency of attacks in the Fractal, as well as the plentitude of adds, which can be an issue without sufficient cleave (which considering pugs don't even seem to grasp the importance of cleaving adds, especially with instabs like afflicted, on land, would probably be a massive issue underwater).
    Same applies to stacking. It's imo a l2p issue, and the Fractal is fine.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    I'd say they're using a healbrand despite the OP saying it doesn't work.

    It's actually fantastic for this Fractal, especially Mantra of Lore is great there with Afflicted.
    Condition Quickbrand is also great here, can still bring Mantra of Lore, all while doing ~33k DPS, with plenty of Tome resets from adds.

    The problems come in to play when people go in there not even knowing what their underwater skills do, let alone how to adjust copied builds to be effective in that setting, which can sometimes be as little as swapping one or two Traits and a utility skill.

    Then you get situations where the whole group does less DPS than what one player should provide, with obviously in turn makes the phases take forever, which with Instabilities like Afflicted means eventually succumbing to the condition pressure as cleanses can't keep up.
    Couple that with NPNG and no boon strip, and you got a boss with perma protection on top of the low dps, as well as 25 Might, and things are bound to go wrong.

    But again, that's all l2p, and not issues with the Fractal.

    You're making it sound too easy and you missed the main point of literally broken combat & skills. Until they decide to fix underwater combat, they should at least temporarily nerf this fractal.

    Even if everyone stacks together, even if you have lots of cleave, even if you have amazing dps, you still need a very good healer. The issue aren't even the adds that you mentioned, it's the degeneration at each boss phase. Remember how people complained about Siren's Reef being too difficult? Well Siren's Reef is easy for me and a lot easier than Aquatic Ruins. It doesn't mean Siren's Reef is easy for everyone, it just means I'm highly experienced in it. Aquatic Ruins is different in that it's not experience that you need to do it but the right healing class and the right player to play that class. Why? Because underwater combat is broken. As I've said, Druid doesn't work underwater at all, HB's struggle in pugs a lot and fail most of the time. Yes I know I said it doesn't work at all and that's because most HB's have literally said they cannot heal underwater. First phase is already hard for them and then the consecutive phases just get worse. Phase 3 is usually at the point where you need to rely on luck to make it through. Heal Renegade works great but now we're entering elitist territory of demanding class specific healers. See where I'm going with this? This is the only fractal that requires specific classes to heal. This is not good for the game nor for the community. This fractal used to be easy. So easy it was literally a walk in the park and it needed an increase in difficulty but not the difficulty spike that we received. They've turned it up on the difficulty scale from 1 up to 11. Not the right way of doing things IMO.

    Underwater combat needs either a rework or they need to adjust this fractal for the broken combat as a workaround. Now imagine if you end up with stacking damage instabilities on top of this fractals mechanic. It would be a nightmare. That's what happened with Siren's Reef before. Frailty, Outflanked and We Bleed Fire are the worst combination I ever had the displeasure of experiencing in what was at the time known as the worst fractal.

    I'm not even asking for a lot. They can keep all the mechanics and stuff in place. Just get rid of the degeneration during each phase where you have to kill the Elite Krait.

    Then you have been playing with bad players, because most of that is simply not true.
    I'm not an expert on Druid, but with FB, between Bow of Truth, Selfless Daring with perma Vigor from Vigorous Precision, Regen, 2 Symbols with Writ, Battle Presence and Tome of Resolve as well as Aegis with Pure of Heart (although you can also run Empowering Might here since you lack the Staff for Might UW if that is an issue) you got more than enough healing to cycle through as long as the group has enough DPS and you are diligent with Condition Cleanses, which is easily doable with Mantra of Lore and Tome of Resolve for mass cleanse.
    If pug FB's proclaim they can't do anything underwater, it's because they don't understand their class at all in that context, at which point they should struggle playing the Fractal at the highest available difficulty.

    And again, the main pressure is just Afflicted (even more so with the might from NPNG if not stripped). Without that, you don't need a healer for the Fractal at all with good enough players, and it's a walk in the park with one.

    What further rework to underwater would you like to see exactly? What is missing?
    Since the last reworks, DPS is very comparable to on land, and healers generally are more than serviceable still.

    And I agree, Siren's Reef is easy, even with all those instabilities, considering pretty much all adds in that fractal are projectile based, all you need is Projectile defense and good boss dps.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Gambino.2109Gambino.2109 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Honestly I think it's fine and people are just too lazy to make decent underwater builds/adjust their existing builds.>

    Stopped reading right there.. why should anyone go out of their way to make a build entirely dedicated to one fractal that offers the same exact rewards as before the rework.

    No.. just no, I am not adjusting anything for the same pitiful rewards I did before and now I have to put in ten times the work, this fractal is easily skipped. I do fear for other fractals being reworked with artificial time (damage time gate mechanics) and drag on the fractals even longer with out any sense of accomplishment but just feeling of frustration.

    It's the same with Molten furnace.. do you think we enjoy having the Mole go through this digging animations five/six times each time his health is chipped?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2019

    @Gambino.2109 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Honestly I think it's fine and people are just too lazy to make decent underwater builds/adjust their existing builds.>

    Stopped reading right there.. why should anyone go out of their way to make a build entirely dedicated to one fractal that offers the same exact rewards as before the rework.

    Because the encounter calls for it. What makes a good player is one that is able to adapt their build to the encounter in front of them than expect a single build to do everything. Changing a few things in a build, such as bringing more CC or condi cleanse, is hardly going out of the way.

    No.. just no, I am not adjusting anything for the same pitiful rewards I did before and now I have to put in ten times the work, this fractal is easily skipped. I do fear for other fractals being reworked with artificial time (damage time gate mechanics) and drag on the fractals even longer with out any sense of accomplishment but just feeling of frustration.

    Then skip the fractal. The fractal shouldn’t be adjusted just because you don’t want to put in the small amount of effort to adapt your build.

  • Granted we were only doing it on level two this weekend, we got a work around after two wipes.

    I was only dying to that quick time stun thing. Due to lag my button presses weren't being registered. They there were just getting overwhelmed by the adds. So we decided to kill adds as we could. PWhile some worked on the boss, the others killed adds. Even though one guy died and quit the party, we were able to finish with four using that method. It took a bit longer, but it was effective.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Gambino.2109 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Honestly I think it's fine and people are just too lazy to make decent underwater builds/adjust their existing builds.>

    Stopped reading right there.. why should anyone go out of their way to make a build entirely dedicated to one fractal that offers the same exact rewards as before the rework.

    No.. just no, I am not adjusting anything for the same pitiful rewards I did before and now I have to put in ten times the work, this fractal is easily skipped. I do fear for other fractals being reworked with artificial time (damage time gate mechanics) and drag on the fractals even longer with out any sense of accomplishment but just feeling of frustration.

    It's the same with Molten furnace.. do you think we enjoy having the Mole go through this digging animations five/six times each time his health is chipped?

    For me personally it's fun to come up with ways to overcome challenges in endgame content and it's satisfying and engaging to make some changes and to then notice the vast difference it made, not struggling with the content anymore.

    Just crying for nerfs every time something challenges me, to then be able to go on as usual blasting through everything with the same old builds, quite frankly seems an incredibly boring way to go about it.

    But maybe this is why some people think Anet's incredibly limited and costly build templates aren't an issue, because they never adapt to content, and just want it nerfed until it suits their capabilities.
    Currently with Arc, you just press a few buttons, and three seconds later you are on your UW build and ready to go for a good experience.

    If in the future that build slot costs you 5+€ to unlock, with not having enough space to store it anyway because you are limited to 6 builds per character/24 per account, which are better spent on something else, this might be more of an issue, and exactly why such heavily monetised templates are a terrible idea for the game.

    These natively ingame available templates could have been a fantastic boon for the game, if fairly monetised, making people excited for diverse content they could and had to adapt too.
    Instead we will keep having players who want to game to be a walk in the park with just one or a very few builds, being discontent about any new challenge, and hardcore players with an already existing library of diverse builds in Arc will lose their current enjoyment of the game, losing access to all those easy to use tools to overcome content they previously had.

    What a shame.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

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