Braham and the nature of Dragon Hunters. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Braham and the nature of Dragon Hunters.

Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

So, here's another topic that i'v been bouncing around in my head.

One of the less fleshed out things from Heart of Thorns was the nature of the various elite specializations. Some had a bit of lore, such as Marjory and harnessing a spirit into her greatsword to become a Reaper, and some of them had virtually none such as Chronomancer, none that actually translated into something in game. The Guardian Class is one of the things in Guild Wars 2 that i'm very passionate about, both from a lore perspective and as something I just enjoy playing in general. The inspiration for Dragon Hunters is very obvious in it's design. The spear, the bulwark, the wings, all of these things scream Paragon mixed with Ranger. As someone who enjoys their Ascalonian Characters I actually really liked it, wanting to grab my Ithas bow and basically play a Keiran Thackery like character, as you might imagine i'll be grinding out the Ebon Vanguard set too as pieces become available.

But one of our primary sources for lore on what a Dragon Hunter is, is Braham, and as a character he's been underdeveloped for awhile. Really anyone who might explain the various elite specs hasn't been able to or lacked the time, speaking to actual practitioners was one of the major things I enjoyed from Path of Fire. Supposedly the name was supposed to evoke Medieval Witch Hunters, which is something I actually really like. I think thematically that would be very cool, but Brahams personal story has been so all consuming that any such traits have been lost beyond occasionally saying that we need to kill all the dragons.

So given the nature of this episode as learning more about said Dragons I feel like this would be the perfect opportunity to expand on Dragonhunters through Braham and any other followers of that order, I can think of no better time for it really. Likewise it may also be a good time to flesh out the lore of te other elite specs as well, and make them feel like a more 'real component of Tyria. I just worry that perhaps in all the noise of Brahams personal journey any of that flavor and insight into what being a guardian is, and what it entails might be lost.

What do you think? i'd also be interested in hearing the developers thoughts as well.

Comments

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure braham is even a dragonhunter to begin with. Sure, he carries his mothers bow, but whenever a fight breaks out he always cracks out the ol' mace and shield.

  • @Westenev.5289 said:
    I'm not sure braham is even a dragonhunter to begin with. Sure, he carries his mothers bow, but whenever a fight breaks out he always cracks out the ol' mace and shield.

    In S4E1 Braham leaps in with the wings skill during a cinematic.

    Like Rytlock's use of herald skills, Braham's use of dragonhunter skills seems purely scripted and rare.

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  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    But one of our primary sources for lore on what a Dragon Hunter is, is Braham, and as a character he's been underdeveloped for awhile.

    Other than Taimi and Rytlock I am hard pressed to think of chartacters who've had more screen time than Braham. We've watched him over 4 years go through one of the more well defined character arcs this franchise has ever seen.
    From a lore perspective the idea of him taking up his mother's bow, learning to use her ranger traps and chipping the fang of Jormag is among the best explanations for an elite spec we have in the game.

    It may not be what you like, but it sure beats 4 pages of NPC text from a rando in the desert telling you what a mirage is.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    But one of our primary sources for lore on what a Dragon Hunter is, is Braham, and as a character he's been underdeveloped for awhile.

    Other than Taimi and Rytlock I am hard pressed to think of chartacters who've had more screen time than Braham. We've watched him over 4 years go through one of the more well defined character arcs this franchise has ever seen.
    From a lore perspective the idea of him taking up his mother's bow, learning to use her ranger traps and chipping the fang of Jormag is among the best explanations for an elite spec we have in the game.

    It may not be what you like, but it sure beats 4 pages of NPC text from a rando in the desert telling you what a mirage is.

    I think that's certainly up for debate. Beyond what people have already said about him using his skills rarely at best(A trait shared with Rytlock, who should also get development in that regard, as should Marjory with Reaper.). Braham has just not been very Guardian-like. Prone to losses of emotional control it's only very recently that the character has pulled himself back, which for someone representing a class known for it's self-mastery seems more like a personal vendetta then anything to do with a broader concept of justice as an ideology. If there was a time for said ideology to be fleshed out, it would definitely be during a season where we're learning about the nature of Tyrian Dragons.

  • @Loesh.4697 said:
    Braham has just not been very Guardian-like.

    And what is "guardian-like"? Profession-wise, what is a personality for a guardian?

    Protective? Defensive? Doubtful. Logan isn't. Moran from SoS isn't, sure he cared for his crew but his personality was more aggressive. Gavin? Hardly, he was a hunter. Dinky also shows no sign of being a defender.

    Emotionally or mentally stable? Again, doubtful. Logan isn't exactly what I'd call a stable individual, especially in EoD. Gavin similarly wasn't exactly a stable individual, and Dinky's a bit of a moron.

    Lorewise, the only attribute we have for guardians is the source of their magic: faith. This isn't faith in religion, but faith in anything. In theory, a waver in faith causes a weakness in magic.

    And I'd argue that "prone to losses of emotional control" (which I would argue does not describe Braham well) does not shake faith. Nor has Braham really had a shaking of faith - from beginning to end, his primary belief has always been in himself and in Wolf. Even when he was hostile to the Commander, he still had self-confidence. If anything, it's only when confiding in Ryland while drunk about failing to break the tooth that he has ever acted "not guardian-like". And during that time, he had a powerful magical bow to rely on instead of his magic.

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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Braham has just not been very Guardian-like.

    And what is "guardian-like"? Profession-wise, what is a personality for a guardian?

    Protective? Defensive? Doubtful. Logan isn't. Moran from SoS isn't, sure he cared for his crew but his personality was more aggressive. Gavin? Hardly, he was a hunter. Dinky also shows no sign of being a defender.

    Emotionally or mentally stable? Again, doubtful. Logan isn't exactly what I'd call a stable individual, especially in EoD. Gavin similarly wasn't exactly a stable individual, and Dinky's a bit of a moron.

    Lorewise, the only attribute we have for guardians is the source of their magic: faith. This isn't faith in religion, but faith in anything. In theory, a waver in faith causes a weakness in magic.

    And I'd argue that "prone to losses of emotional control" (which I would argue does not describe Braham well) does not shake faith. Nor has Braham really had a shaking of faith - from beginning to end, his primary belief has always been in himself and in Wolf. Even when he was hostile to the Commander, he still had self-confidence. If anything, it's only when confiding in Ryland while drunk about failing to break the tooth that he has ever acted "not guardian-like". And during that time, he had a powerful magical bow to rely on instead of his magic.

    I would argue the exact opposite, Logan is practically defined by his protectiveness. Not just towards Queen Jennah, but Kryta, Ascalon, and even close family friends like the Ashfords. Frankly it seems like every other thing Logan does revolves around his ability to protect and to lead, which are the defining characteristics of what a Guardian is beyond their faith. Obviously Dinky wasn't that intelligent but i'd argue that Dinky seemed fairly poorly written in general, as largely comic relief, which is a shame because i'd like to see what a guardian is actually like in Charr society. Boiling it down to just 'faith' sort of undercuts that everything about the class is also about faith in honor, valor, self discipline, and tactical supremacy. Which is easily communicated in pretty much everything in their trait line.

    Further i'd argue that Braham as a person has never not been in doubt and his actual protective aspects have wavered in and out of focus. There are exactly two times where the Witch Hunter like aspects of Braham shined through, both of which in happened in the Heart of Thorns story proper: The first occurred when Mordromoth falls back and Braham comments that he senses it's fear and that we should pursue it, the second when the command tells him that the Jungle provides only death and he responds that we provide vengeance. That is an immensely guardian-esque thing to say, it speaks not only to the virtue of justice and retribution, but also to a deep seated belief that dragon corruption is evil and must be purged.

    Which is the key here, the self discipline and strong desire to do something, not strictly be a stable person as we understand it. I would not exactly describe medieval witch hunters as stable individuals either, but there was a code and a strong desire to uphold their beliefs. That is the centerpiece of what being a guardian is, and more moments like those above, rather then just moments of him being plagued by doubt over himself, his mother, his legacy, and Destiny's Edge would be welcome.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    Logan is practically defined by his protectiveness. Not just towards Queen Jennah, but Kryta, Ascalon, and even close family friends like the Ashfords.

    In Edge of Destiny, Logan is far from protective about these things (except Jennah, but being potentially hypnotized acts counter to the idea). And he's just as much a guardian then than in the personal story or later. Heck, I would argue he's less protective in the personal story than other times. He so easily gave up being by Jennah in Caudecus's Manor, left so quickly in Twilight Assault, and was even full blown offensive (not defensive) throughout CoF until the final boss battle.

    Boiling it down to just 'faith' sort of undercuts that everything about the class is also about faith in honor, valor, self discipline, and tactical supremacy.

    Here's the thing.

    Nothing actually defines the class as being "about faith in honor, valor, self-discipline, and tactical supremacy". You could argue the first two via the trait lines, but it's not as if every trait is mandatory, which means it's not a universal concept for guardians in the mechanical sense, let alone lore sense. This is an issue stemming from the fact that ArenaNet doesn't really delve into profession lore. We got a bit when it comes to the "new" stuff, but not much; for guardians it boils down to "developed by combining practices of monks, ritualists, and paragons" - but which practices? - and that their magic is "powered by faith, not gods as once believed." Ultimately, you're using a definition that isn't brought up anywhere in canon. You're making a presumption of what "guardians must be" and proclaiming Braham doesn't fit that mold you, and you alone, created.

    Further i'd argue that Braham as a person has never not been in doubt and his actual protective aspects have wavered in and out of focus.

    Braham was fairly sure of himself throughout Seasons 1 and 2, as well as in Heart of Thorns. He did waver a bit with Season 3, arguably, but even then he had a stern determination to him and faith in that determination. He's been overly protective of Rox throughout the entirety (again, except that one time when he was so driven by his determination).

    I would argue that the determination is an aspect of guardian "faith" too, and that as such, for Braham, that one moment where he changed, it isn't that he wavered - it's just that the focus of his faith and sense of duty momentarily shifted. To me, "wavering" is becoming unsure, and Braham had never uncertainty until he confided in Ryland while drunk, and even that's just about "what is my legend?" and not "am I determined" or "am I sure of myself".

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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Logan is practically defined by his protectiveness. Not just towards Queen Jennah, but Kryta, Ascalon, and even close family friends like the Ashfords.

    In Edge of Destiny, Logan is far from protective about these things (except Jennah, but being potentially hypnotized acts counter to the idea). And he's just as much a guardian then than in the personal story or later. Heck, I would argue he's less protective in the personal story than other times. He so easily gave up being by Jennah in Caudecus's Manor, left so quickly in Twilight Assault, and was even full blown offensive (not defensive) throughout CoF until the final boss battle.

    Boiling it down to just 'faith' sort of undercuts that everything about the class is also about faith in honor, valor, self discipline, and tactical supremacy.

    Here's the thing.

    Nothing actually defines the class as being "about faith in honor, valor, self-discipline, and tactical supremacy". You could argue the first two via the trait lines, but it's not as if every trait is mandatory, which means it's not a universal concept for guardians in the mechanical sense, let alone lore sense. This is an issue stemming from the fact that ArenaNet doesn't really delve into profession lore. We got a bit when it comes to the "new" stuff, but not much; for guardians it boils down to "developed by combining practices of monks, ritualists, and paragons" - but which practices? - and that their magic is "powered by faith, not gods as once believed." Ultimately, you're using a definition that isn't brought up anywhere in canon. You're making a presumption of what "guardians must be" and proclaiming Braham doesn't fit that mold you, and you alone, created.

    Further i'd argue that Braham as a person has never not been in doubt and his actual protective aspects have wavered in and out of focus.

    Braham was fairly sure of himself throughout Seasons 1 and 2, as well as in Heart of Thorns. He did waver a bit with Season 3, arguably, but even then he had a stern determination to him and faith in that determination. He's been overly protective of Rox throughout the entirety (again, except that one time when he was so driven by his determination).

    I would argue that the determination is an aspect of guardian "faith" too, and that as such, for Braham, that one moment where he changed, it isn't that he wavered - it's just that the focus of his faith and sense of duty momentarily shifted. To me, "wavering" is becoming unsure, and Braham had never uncertainty until he confided in Ryland while drunk, and even that's just about "what is my legend?" and not "am I determined" or "am I sure of myself".

    I would heavily disagree he's not protective in the personal story, the guy is constantly on about his duty to his people, to Jennah, to Kryta, his gods, and the world at large. Sure Jennah may be a hypnosis spell of some kind, but if so it's a extremely long lasting one. I wouldn't know though for sure, because to be blunt I haven't actually read Edge of Destiny, but in the main game he's definitely about his duty to his people and their wellfare, as well as his duty to other individuals besides himself. He's selfless, to put it simply. As for not defining what practices Guardians take from, that seems a little weird as an assertion. We know they use spirit weapons, whether that be from their ancestors or somehow manipulating their own virtues and souls we're not sure, but that kind of conjuration is tied heavily to ritualism. The spear, shield, and wings of Dragon Hunters harkens back to Paragons, the consecrations and meditations back to monks as holy men as well as the focus on self-discipline with three cardinal virtues that may as well of been ripped from Greek stocism. It's kind of on the nose, actually, especially with Firebrand.

    I mean heck, look at Gavin, he behaves substantially different from every other Nightmare Courtier. Beyond strongly believing in the Nightmare itself he also has a personal code of honor, a notable lack of spite when he's slain. To him it was about killing when it was needed, rather then for the simple desire to murder.

    Similarly, you're making an assumption based on the fact that I mentioned all of those that you have to embody them simultaneously, rather it would be nice to see Braham embody those things individually as well. Further it seems like a confusion of 'loose canon' with 'no canon' to how these things work. Yes a Zerker could do the whole flame aura thing by setting himself on fire and hurling themselves at enemies, could use magic to accomplish the same goal, but in both cases what defines them is sacrificing self preservation for unbridled rage and ferocity. Not to say that Zerkers are a paragon of lore, they are essentially 'very angry man/woman/person' right now, but rather that it's easy to gather what they are about even if how they get there is different.

    As for determination, I would agree that's an aspect of Guardian faith as well. It just doesn't come off as believable with Braham, rather then a codified ideology for why the Dragons are bad, it's more along the lines of just anger and grief over his mother. It's an emotional response more then anything, one that can come or can go, I think that now that he's talked to Eir maybe we can actually see why braham believes what he believes.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    But one of our primary sources for lore on what a Dragon Hunter is, is Braham, and as a character he's been underdeveloped for awhile.

    Other than Taimi and Rytlock I am hard pressed to think of chartacters who've had more screen time than Braham. We've watched him over 4 years go through one of the more well defined character arcs this franchise has ever seen.
    From a lore perspective the idea of him taking up his mother's bow, learning to use her ranger traps and chipping the fang of Jormag is among the best explanations for an elite spec we have in the game.

    It may not be what you like, but it sure beats 4 pages of NPC text from a rando in the desert telling you what a mirage is.

    I think that's certainly up for debate. Beyond what people have already said about him using his skills rarely at best(A trait shared with Rytlock, who should also get development in that regard, as should Marjory with Reaper.). Braham has just not been very Guardian-like. Prone to losses of emotional control it's only very recently that the character has pulled himself back, which for someone representing a class known for it's self-mastery seems more like a personal vendetta then anything to do with a broader concept of justice as an ideology. If there was a time for said ideology to be fleshed out, it would definitely be during a season where we're learning about the nature of Tyrian Dragons.

    Ummm ok...
    Your personal projections (that have no basis in lore) about just what a guardian is aside...
    The lore explanation of a Dragonhunter has been far better done and integrated into the story than just about any other elite. Maybe Marjory's reaper evolution is on the same level. Rytlock's Revenant transformation and story is the only one that really outshines those in terms of time and detail added.
    That's what?... 3 out of 18 elites with a decent example in the story?

    You want the devs to give more attention to Dragonhunter in terms of the lore?
    As I mentioned before, most of the PoF specs other than Deadeye (via Zafirah) are given lip service through an NPC in the desert with a few pages of text.
    Many of the HoT elites don't even get that.

    It seems a lot to expect that the developers pay attention to this when there are much wider holes in the lore around most other elites.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    But one of our primary sources for lore on what a Dragon Hunter is, is Braham, and as a character he's been underdeveloped for awhile.

    Other than Taimi and Rytlock I am hard pressed to think of chartacters who've had more screen time than Braham. We've watched him over 4 years go through one of the more well defined character arcs this franchise has ever seen.
    From a lore perspective the idea of him taking up his mother's bow, learning to use her ranger traps and chipping the fang of Jormag is among the best explanations for an elite spec we have in the game.

    It may not be what you like, but it sure beats 4 pages of NPC text from a rando in the desert telling you what a mirage is.

    I think that's certainly up for debate. Beyond what people have already said about him using his skills rarely at best(A trait shared with Rytlock, who should also get development in that regard, as should Marjory with Reaper.). Braham has just not been very Guardian-like. Prone to losses of emotional control it's only very recently that the character has pulled himself back, which for someone representing a class known for it's self-mastery seems more like a personal vendetta then anything to do with a broader concept of justice as an ideology. If there was a time for said ideology to be fleshed out, it would definitely be during a season where we're learning about the nature of Tyrian Dragons.

    Ummm ok...
    Your personal projections (that have no basis in lore) about just what a guardian is aside...
    The lore explanation of a Dragonhunter has been far better done and integrated into the story than just about any other elite. Maybe Marjory's reaper evolution is on the same level. Rytlock's Revenant transformation and story is the only one that really outshines those in terms of time and detail added.
    That's what?... 3 out of 18 elites with a decent example in the story?

    You want the devs to give more attention to Dragonhunter in terms of the lore?
    As I mentioned before, most of the PoF specs other than Deadeye (via Zafirah) are given lip service through an NPC in the desert with a few pages of text.
    Many of the HoT elites don't even get that.

    It seems a lot to expect that the developers pay attention to this when there are much wider holes in the lore around most other elites.

    I mean just saying 'Your projections have no basis in lore' does not actually make the thing true, you know that right? You have to actually explain why the thing is that way rather then just hammer in the idea that Guardians this vague concept with no attachment to a particular behavior, belief system, or action. That aside, the above post about someone not even knowing if Braham is or is not a Dragonhunter kind of speaks for itself in that regard, and again I feel part of the problem is that his determination in regards to his personal vendetta, rather then any wider belief towards dragons as a whole.

    The PoF specs with their few pages of text often feel better explained. They point out why they do what they do, how it works, the reasoning behind their tools, and their general mode of combat. As for the HoT elites I agree...and those also should get more attention.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Gavin pretty much described people outside of nightmare in two groups. "People to recruit" and "People to kill". He immediately declared (sadly) that the PC must die because they refused to join. Don't know if he's a guardian, but the difference between him and other courtiers is not very deep, especially if the other person is not a Sylvari.

    Also, I'm fairly sure that Anet has confirmed at least once, possibly several times that Jennah never charmed/forced Logan to Love her. The only magic she used was the one where she could summon/contact him across vast distances.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Gavin pretty much described people outside of nightmare in two groups. "People to recruit" and "People to kill". He immediately declared (sadly) that the PC must die because they refused to join. Don't know if he's a guardian, but the difference between him and other courtiers is not very deep, especially if the other person is not a Sylvari.

    Also, I'm fairly sure that Anet has confirmed at least once, possibly several times that Jennah never charmed/forced Logan to Love her. The only magic she used was the one where she could summon/contact him across vast distances.

    At the same time he also believed in killing out of necessity, rather then killing wantonly, where other Courtiers had little trouble indulging in their desires. He also felt the work he had done was as part of a greater good, that the freeing of people through despair and cruelty would allow them to shake off the Ventari Tablet and become predators rather then prey. Most Nightmare Courtiers would not challenge someone to a fight in single combat rather then attempt to ambush them in a group, but he did so because he felt that he could still have honor and it was the just thing to do. All of which is to say that Gavins role as a guardian doesn't seem accidental, but rather a twist on the fact that the man had a code which most Nightmare did not.

    That kind of code and ideology would be interesting to see in Braham as well. Marjoy was chosen to play a big part in this season as a detective and a necromancer, which gave her an insight into the Eldritch Horrors we will face in the more Lovecraftian Icebrood Saga, I feel like Braham could also fulfill that role as well. Dragon Hunter was chosen as a name specifically to evoke the image of Medieval Witch Hunters, what better time to have that devotion to purging dragon corruption and bringing that ideology of purity to the fore then against a Dragon whose entire deal is corrupting the minds of others and turning them to it's own 'heretical' beliefs?

    It's a bit high concept, but I feel it would do a lot to flesh out the character and show a side of Braham to people that they cannot misconstrue as him just being a Norn caricature.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Gavin pretty much described people outside of nightmare in two groups. "People to recruit" and "People to kill". He immediately declared (sadly) that the PC must die because they refused to join. Don't know if he's a guardian, but the difference between him and other courtiers is not very deep, especially if the other person is not a Sylvari.

    Also, I'm fairly sure that Anet has confirmed at least once, possibly several times that Jennah never charmed/forced Logan to Love her. The only magic she used was the one where she could summon/contact him across vast distances.

    At the same time he also believed in killing out of necessity, rather then killing wantonly, where other Courtiers had little trouble indulging in their desires. He also felt the work he had done was as part of a greater good, that the freeing of people through despair and cruelty would allow them to shake off the Ventari Tablet and become predators rather then prey. Most Nightmare Courtiers would not challenge someone to a fight in single combat rather then attempt to ambush them in a group, but he did so because he felt that he could still have honor and it was the just thing to do. All of which is to say that Gavins role as a guardian doesn't seem accidental, but rather a twist on the fact that the man had a code which most Nightmare did not.

    And the moment a sylvari he considered a possible recruit refused, he ordered them dead. :P Yes. he had a code, but it was incredibly twisted and his violence/darkness was just as strong as all other nightmare courtiers.

    Besides, Anet long had guardians of all groups, from pirates/bandits to Iron Legion, to human soldiers and Asura. Being a guardian was never linked to a specific code, belief system, or behavior traits. It was simply new style of magical training, descended from three different magic classes of old. You can be a valiant soldier in the service of Kryta, dedicated to defending the Crown and Country from all threats, to a dangerous criminal, raiding merchant convoys with his friends.

    That kind of code and ideology would be interesting to see in Braham as well. Marjoy was chosen to play a big part in this season as a detective and a necromancer, which gave her an insight into the Eldritch Horrors we will face in the more Lovecraftian Icebrood Saga, I feel like Braham could also fulfill that role as well. Dragon Hunter was chosen as a name specifically to evoke the image of Medieval Witch Hunters, what better time to have that devotion to purging dragon corruption and bringing that ideology of purity to the fore then against a Dragon whose entire deal is corrupting the minds of others and turning them to it's own 'heretical' beliefs?

    Eh, I've never taken "Dragon hunter" to be akin to medieval witch hunter or anything similar to that(Most easy thing to imagine is the warhammer/warhammer 40k ones lol). But instead just, a literal guardian who fights dragons, and thus adapted their skills to be more suited for that. Longbows to fight from range, traps to keep flying foes grounded, etc.

    It's a bit high concept, but I feel it would do a lot to flesh out the character and show a side of Braham to people that they cannot misconstrue as him just being a Norn caricature.

    People who think that I chuckle at, because really Braham has fit what we know and have seen of Norn. But I've seen plenty of people who claim to be Norn fans but then immediately declare any Norn who chooses to join a guild or group as "Not being a Norn!" and at the same time failing to understand that GW2 the Norn are the same from GW1, it's just we see more civilian/out of combat life.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Gavin pretty much described people outside of nightmare in two groups. "People to recruit" and "People to kill". He immediately declared (sadly) that the PC must die because they refused to join. Don't know if he's a guardian, but the difference between him and other courtiers is not very deep, especially if the other person is not a Sylvari.

    Also, I'm fairly sure that Anet has confirmed at least once, possibly several times that Jennah never charmed/forced Logan to Love her. The only magic she used was the one where she could summon/contact him across vast distances.

    At the same time he also believed in killing out of necessity, rather then killing wantonly, where other Courtiers had little trouble indulging in their desires. He also felt the work he had done was as part of a greater good, that the freeing of people through despair and cruelty would allow them to shake off the Ventari Tablet and become predators rather then prey. Most Nightmare Courtiers would not challenge someone to a fight in single combat rather then attempt to ambush them in a group, but he did so because he felt that he could still have honor and it was the just thing to do. All of which is to say that Gavins role as a guardian doesn't seem accidental, but rather a twist on the fact that the man had a code which most Nightmare did not.

    And the moment a sylvari he considered a possible recruit refused, he ordered them dead. :P Yes. he had a code, but it was incredibly twisted and his violence/darkness was just as strong as all other nightmare courtiers.

    Besides, Anet long had guardians of all groups, from pirates/bandits to Iron Legion, to human soldiers and Asura. Being a guardian was never linked to a specific code, belief system, or behavior traits. It was simply new style of magical training, descended from three different magic classes of old. You can be a valiant soldier in the service of Kryta, dedicated to defending the Crown and Country from all threats, to a dangerous criminal, raiding merchant convoys with his friends.

    That kind of code and ideology would be interesting to see in Braham as well. Marjoy was chosen to play a big part in this season as a detective and a necromancer, which gave her an insight into the Eldritch Horrors we will face in the more Lovecraftian Icebrood Saga, I feel like Braham could also fulfill that role as well. Dragon Hunter was chosen as a name specifically to evoke the image of Medieval Witch Hunters, what better time to have that devotion to purging dragon corruption and bringing that ideology of purity to the fore then against a Dragon whose entire deal is corrupting the minds of others and turning them to it's own 'heretical' beliefs?

    Eh, I've never taken "Dragon hunter" to be akin to medieval witch hunter or anything similar to that(Most easy thing to imagine is the warhammer/warhammer 40k ones lol). But instead just, a literal guardian who fights dragons, and thus adapted their skills to be more suited for that. Longbows to fight from range, traps to keep flying foes grounded, etc.

    It's a bit high concept, but I feel it would do a lot to flesh out the character and show a side of Braham to people that they cannot misconstrue as him just being a Norn caricature.

    People who think that I chuckle at, because really Braham has fit what we know and have seen of Norn. But I've seen plenty of people who claim to be Norn fans but then immediately declare any Norn who chooses to join a guild or group as "Not being a Norn!" and at the same time failing to understand that GW2 the Norn are the same from GW1, it's just we see more civilian/out of combat life.

    The depths of how dark he was at his core is largely irrelevant though, because for all our purposes all that matters is that it was structured and built around a personal sense of right and wrong. For Asura that could be the Eternal Alchemy, for Iron Legion that could be faith in the Warband. This can be most clearly seen in how the skils and the traits are described, they harden your resolve as an individual, force you in a mentality devoted to purge corruption, it's not just another form of magic. Guardians are tangibly different from other people where the process of becoming one actually changes how you think as an individual. And really, why would it not? It does after all almost entirely revolve around meditation, self reflection, and purging what you mentally deem to be evil. Which is to say, yes you can be a dangerous criminal but much like Gavin you're going to have to have a personal code that somehow makes sense for it to work.

    As for Witch Hunting, that's consistent with the stance Anet itself took on the name. It was deliberately meant to evoke the notion of Witch Hunting as Dragon Hunters violently purge their prey, I mean not surprising since they literally impale their targets on a burning spear and yank them into magic sawblades.

    As for Norn in GW2, I can't say that showing that civilian and out of combat life in the way that's been done has done the race much favors. I don't think it's a coincidence that of all the races, the ones I tend to find people the least interested in are the Norn themselves. Drinking and partying are all well and good but they have usurped what originally made the Norn special, not a sense of hyper individualism but definitely a notion of independence. They're hunters focused on their clans and their homesteads, they might join a guild but they aren't really going to rally to anything like an organized army en mass. And there's validity to that lifestyle choice, there is power in striking out on your own away from the greater culture to build your legend, but actually showing it thusfar has been lackluster.

    Braham was one of the casualties of that. Even before Bound by Blood his legacy was yes being at the side of the Dragon Slayer, but also as an individual gailing to live up to what people expect and failing as a leader. But that will probably in part be the point of Bound by Blood, Braham soul searching to try and become his best self, away from the failures he lives in the shadow of...ideally, if the rest of the Saga is just him drinking more well I can't say he'll have a lot of narrative depth.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    As for not defining what practices Guardians take from, that seems a little weird as an assertion. We know they use spirit weapons, whether that be from their ancestors or somehow manipulating their own virtues and souls we're not sure, but that kind of conjuration is tied heavily to ritualism. The spear, shield, and wings of Dragon Hunters harkens back to Paragons, the consecrations and meditations back to monks as holy men as well as the focus on self-discipline with three cardinal virtues that may as well of been ripped from Greek stocism. It's kind of on the nose, actually, especially with Firebrand.

    We know what abilities they take. But we do not know the philosophical practices they take. The two are very, very different.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean heck, look at Gavin, he behaves substantially different from every other Nightmare Courtier. Beyond strongly believing in the Nightmare itself he also has a personal code of honor, a notable lack of spite when he's slain. To him it was about killing when it was needed, rather then for the simple desire to murder.

    Like Kalavier said, Gavin is still pretty black and white in his view of the world. Yes, he's not quite as bad as other Courtiers with a sense of honor, but that's the extent of his difference. He still split everyone into either "recruit or kill". And he certainly doesn't really portray anything you brought up that makes a guardian so. Gavin is not a protector, he's not a man of valor. His sense of self, and his determination, is fake - a twisting done by the Nightmare like all other Courtiers.

    The only thing he's shown to relate to your claim of what a guardian personifies is that code of honor, which itself basically extends to "don't get upset if you're not strong enough to win a battle you started".

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Similarly, you're making an assumption based on the fact that I mentioned all of those that you have to embody them simultaneously,

    No, I was working on the assumption that you have to embody any of them to a decent degree.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean just saying 'Your projections have no basis in lore' does not actually make the thing true, you know that right? You have to actually explain why the thing is that way rather then just hammer in the idea that Guardians this vague concept with no attachment to a particular behavior, belief system, or action.

    It's typically on the one claiming something exists to be the one to provide proof. It's very hard to show evidence something doesn't exist when we're not talking about it being in a specific location. In this case, the burden of proof is on you, not us.

    Please do feel to provide source(s) that say guardians personify xyz aspects.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Also, I'm fairly sure that Anet has confirmed at least once, possibly several times that Jennah never charmed/forced Logan to Love her. The only magic she used was the one where she could summon/contact him across vast distances.

    The opposite actually. They said they liked the fan theory and the uncertainty of which case it was and thus wouldn't clarify, but also mentioned that Jennah had some regret in calling Logan at that time, since she didn't know Destiny's Edge was preparing to kill Kralkatorrik.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    As for not defining what practices Guardians take from, that seems a little weird as an assertion. We know they use spirit weapons, whether that be from their ancestors or somehow manipulating their own virtues and souls we're not sure, but that kind of conjuration is tied heavily to ritualism. The spear, shield, and wings of Dragon Hunters harkens back to Paragons, the consecrations and meditations back to monks as holy men as well as the focus on self-discipline with three cardinal virtues that may as well of been ripped from Greek stocism. It's kind of on the nose, actually, especially with Firebrand.

    We know what abilities they take. But we do not know the philosophical practices they take. The two are very, very different.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean heck, look at Gavin, he behaves substantially different from every other Nightmare Courtier. Beyond strongly believing in the Nightmare itself he also has a personal code of honor, a notable lack of spite when he's slain. To him it was about killing when it was needed, rather then for the simple desire to murder.

    Like Kalavier said, Gavin is still pretty black and white in his view of the world. Yes, he's not quite as bad as other Courtiers with a sense of honor, but that's the extent of his difference. He still split everyone into either "recruit or kill". And he certainly doesn't really portray anything you brought up that makes a guardian so. Gavin is not a protector, he's not a man of valor. His sense of self, and his determination, is fake - a twisting done by the Nightmare like all other Courtiers.

    The only thing he's shown to relate to your claim of what a guardian personifies is that code of honor, which itself basically extends to "don't get upset if you're not strong enough to win a battle you started".

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Similarly, you're making an assumption based on the fact that I mentioned all of those that you have to embody them simultaneously,

    No, I was working on the assumption that you have to embody any of them to a decent degree.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean just saying 'Your projections have no basis in lore' does not actually make the thing true, you know that right? You have to actually explain why the thing is that way rather then just hammer in the idea that Guardians this vague concept with no attachment to a particular behavior, belief system, or action.

    It's typically on the one claiming something exists to be the one to provide proof. It's very hard to show evidence something doesn't exist when we're not talking about it being in a specific location. In this case, the burden of proof is on you, not us.

    Please do feel to provide source(s) that say guardians personify xyz aspects.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Also, I'm fairly sure that Anet has confirmed at least once, possibly several times that Jennah never charmed/forced Logan to Love her. The only magic she used was the one where she could summon/contact him across vast distances.

    The opposite actually. They said they liked the fan theory and the uncertainty of which case it was and thus wouldn't clarify, but also mentioned that Jennah had some regret in calling Logan at that time, since she didn't know Destiny's Edge was preparing to kill Kralkatorrik.

    I mean my reason for pointing out the abilities was to also point out that we know how they draw from ritualists, paragons, and monks. It just seems kind of weird to say that how this inspiration takes shape is vague when we can see powers that directly tie to those previously existing classes.

    As for Gavin, that assertion of his character seems somewhat nonsensical. If he didn't actually care and didn't have some sense of honor or valor he would of simply led you to a trap. Why ask to fight you in a duel for something so important? The best, perhaps, you could argue was that by defeating you honorably he might convert other people to Nightmare by demonstrating his prowess. But even then he doesn't seem particularly bitter about his defeat, congratulating you on your victory and the blows you strike. The commander themselves note that Gavin died a man of honor, even if a man of honor serving an evil power.

    As for sources, well we have this interview and post:

    https://www.engadget.com/2011/01/31/behind-the-scenes-with-the-guild-wars-2-guardian-massivelys-in/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93aWtpLmd1aWxkd2FyczIuY29tL3dpa2kvR3VhcmRpYW4&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADk3If-fFv-PPamK_9mCWPjlW6eU5QxlYm70dyxnkOGkdTn6OE7PPkAskyzqhTKkWBgKoU29gcYBPMkEcMYxQZRvIkOHPN4hTUF4JJTv8TFWIOrA8PduHFt420kyzRUeZ2GDhzQSdPMCDoASKOV3y43cG0hTYUWPkWwJa8PShc8O

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Liked-the-ready-up-name-still-doesn-t-fit/first#post5048195

    Which i'm sure you've already seen before, they're easily accessible references. The visual design for Guardians was based on Logans protective nature, the naming convention for Dragon Hunter harkens back to a high concept of a Witch Hunter and they consider themselves protectors of the innocent. This is partially why i'm somewhat confused about these things however, this information isn't just easily obtainable in the sense of you can link to it. But if you forgive me for being blunt it seems kind of obvious as an intrinsic nature of the class, the very concept of using a virtue is to channel magic through some high moral standard, whatever that standard might be.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean my reason for pointing out the abilities was to also point out that we know how they draw from ritualists, paragons, and monks. It just seems kind of weird to say that how this inspiration takes shape is vague when we can see powers that directly tie to those previously existing classes.

    Pointing out that we know what abilities ritualists, paragons, and monks went into guardians isn't the same as what philosophies (if any) did. And that's what I was talking about: philosophies, personalities, and mental/emotional practices.

    What someone does is vastly different from why they do it.

    And from the get go, with "Braham doesn't act guardian-like", you've been defining the why, not the what.

    As for Gavin, that assertion of his character seems somewhat nonsensical. If he didn't actually care and didn't have some sense of honor or valor he would of simply led you to a trap. Why ask to fight you in a duel for something so important? The best, perhaps, you could argue was that by defeating you honorably he might convert other people to Nightmare by demonstrating his prowess. But even then he doesn't seem particularly bitter about his defeat, congratulating you on your victory and the blows you strike. The commander themselves note that Gavin died a man of honor, even if a man of honor serving an evil power.

    He did lead you into a trap. When you helped him track down the White Stag. He had an ambush of Nightmare Courtiers distract you while he made off with the White Stag.

    And really, everything else you brought up - about him challenging a duel - I never counteracted. Nor did I say he was without honor. I said: And he certainly doesn't really portray anything you brought up that makes a guardian so. Gavin is not a protector, he's not a man of valor. His sense of self, and his determination, is fake - a twisting done by the Nightmare like all other Courtiers.

    A small sense of honor - one that is not full cut either, given the aforementioned ambush by Courtiers while he ran away with the prize rather than fight you himself then and there - does not make him a "faith in honor, valor, self discipline, and tactical supremacy"

    Challenging you to a one-on-one duel and sending off all his reinforcements is the antithesis of "tactical supremacy"; the fact he's willing to use ambushes and run away means he's not valorous or honorable. And all Nightmare Courtiers - as showcased by individuals like Tiachren - have their entire persona altered by the Nightmare when they fall, effectively removing all self-discipline and replacing it with discipline (or lack thereof) embedded by the Nightmare.

    Yes, let's quote those sources shall we:

    They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity's defensive nature and the Charr's desire to rule the battlefield.

    Nothing about honor, valor, self-discipline, or tactical supremacy there. It's only about being a defender, which the Dragon Hunter itself foregoes by being a persecutor.

    What sort of basic personality does this profession have?

    Eric Flannum: To me, the Guardian feels a lot like playing a caster who wears heavy armor. This is in contrast to what you'd typically think of when you think of the Paladin archetype found in many games, which feels like a melee bruiser who also knows a few spells. The Guardian also doesn't feel particularly religious, but he does feel spiritual. What I mean by that is that the Guardian embodies certain ideals without ascribing to any one faith in particular, which is also a bit different than your typical Paladin archetype.

    Jeff Grubb: I've been running Guardians in our recent group play tests and found that, early on, I tended to over-extend, to try to make him a Warrior, to run into combat, and I ended up fighting to survive way too much. I quickly picked up on the idea that Guardians have to pace themselves, pick their targets, and keep an eye on the party as a whole. I've been using the Sanctuary skill as a "time out" to allow both the team and me to regain the momentum and carry the battle forward. The Guardian is more of tactician, trying to see the larger picture, whether soloing or in a group.

    When asked with a direct question about personality they... don't really say anything solid about it. It's just their personal opinion, which falls back to a lot of ArenaNet's take on "letting the player interpret". Both Eric and Jeff answer in completely different ways - one says "they're tacticians", the other says "they're devout".

    And with the second source:

    Guardians consider themselves protectors of the innocent. Followers of their faith be it in honor, valor, etc. The origin of the dragonhunter is a more subtle nuanced version of this. Guardians fight for justice and the dragonhunter faction believes justice is the eradication of dragons and their minions.

    This basically just says "guardians are defenders" and that dragon hunters take the concept into an effective "the best defense is a strong offense... against dragon minions". Which Braham actually fits perfectly well with Season 3 - he focuses less on defensive, and goes more with offensive stuff with a deadset mind on fighting icebrood/Jormag. So in using this, you actually counteract your own original point.

    But again, this contradicts Eric and Grubb, thus bringing us back to the commonplace "letting the player interpret" as we have three developers with three different mutually-exclusive takes on the profession. And incidentally, not a single one mentioned honor, valor, or self-discipline.

    Which means there's so much wiggle room, you cannot actually proclaim "this NPC doesn't act like a Guardian", because there is no solid mold for how guardians act. And this extends to all professions.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean my reason for pointing out the abilities was to also point out that we know how they draw from ritualists, paragons, and monks. It just seems kind of weird to say that how this inspiration takes shape is vague when we can see powers that directly tie to those previously existing classes.

    Pointing out that we know what abilities ritualists, paragons, and monks went into guardians isn't the same as what philosophies (if any) did. And that's what I was talking about: philosophies, personalities, and mental/emotional practices.

    What someone does is vastly different from why they do it.

    And from the get go, with "Braham doesn't act guardian-like", you've been defining the why, not the what.

    As for Gavin, that assertion of his character seems somewhat nonsensical. If he didn't actually care and didn't have some sense of honor or valor he would of simply led you to a trap. Why ask to fight you in a duel for something so important? The best, perhaps, you could argue was that by defeating you honorably he might convert other people to Nightmare by demonstrating his prowess. But even then he doesn't seem particularly bitter about his defeat, congratulating you on your victory and the blows you strike. The commander themselves note that Gavin died a man of honor, even if a man of honor serving an evil power.

    He did lead you into a trap. When you helped him track down the White Stag. He had an ambush of Nightmare Courtiers distract you while he made off with the White Stag.

    And really, everything else you brought up - about him challenging a duel - I never counteracted. Nor did I say he was without honor. I said: And he certainly doesn't really portray anything you brought up that makes a guardian so. Gavin is not a protector, he's not a man of valor. His sense of self, and his determination, is fake - a twisting done by the Nightmare like all other Courtiers.

    A small sense of honor - one that is not full cut either, given the aforementioned ambush by Courtiers while he ran away with the prize rather than fight you himself then and there - does not make him a "faith in honor, valor, self discipline, and tactical supremacy"

    Challenging you to a one-on-one duel and sending off all his reinforcements is the antithesis of "tactical supremacy"; the fact he's willing to use ambushes and run away means he's not valorous or honorable. And all Nightmare Courtiers - as showcased by individuals like Tiachren - have their entire persona altered by the Nightmare when they fall, effectively removing all self-discipline and replacing it with discipline (or lack thereof) embedded by the Nightmare.

    Yes, let's quote those sources shall we:

    They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity's defensive nature and the Charr's desire to rule the battlefield.

    Nothing about honor, valor, self-discipline, or tactical supremacy there. It's only about being a defender, which the Dragon Hunter itself foregoes by being a persecutor.

    What sort of basic personality does this profession have?

    Eric Flannum: To me, the Guardian feels a lot like playing a caster who wears heavy armor. This is in contrast to what you'd typically think of when you think of the Paladin archetype found in many games, which feels like a melee bruiser who also knows a few spells. The Guardian also doesn't feel particularly religious, but he does feel spiritual. What I mean by that is that the Guardian embodies certain ideals without ascribing to any one faith in particular, which is also a bit different than your typical Paladin archetype.

    Jeff Grubb: I've been running Guardians in our recent group play tests and found that, early on, I tended to over-extend, to try to make him a Warrior, to run into combat, and I ended up fighting to survive way too much. I quickly picked up on the idea that Guardians have to pace themselves, pick their targets, and keep an eye on the party as a whole. I've been using the Sanctuary skill as a "time out" to allow both the team and me to regain the momentum and carry the battle forward. The Guardian is more of tactician, trying to see the larger picture, whether soloing or in a group.

    When asked with a direct question about personality they... don't really say anything solid about it. It's just their personal opinion, which falls back to a lot of ArenaNet's take on "letting the player interpret". Both Eric and Jeff answer in completely different ways - one says "they're tacticians", the other says "they're devout".

    And with the second source:

    Guardians consider themselves protectors of the innocent. Followers of their faith be it in honor, valor, etc. The origin of the dragonhunter is a more subtle nuanced version of this. Guardians fight for justice and the dragonhunter faction believes justice is the eradication of dragons and their minions.

    This basically just says "guardians are defenders" and that dragon hunters take the concept into an effective "the best defense is a strong offense... against dragon minions". Which Braham actually fits perfectly well with Season 3 - he focuses less on defensive, and goes more with offensive stuff with a deadset mind on fighting icebrood/Jormag. So in using this, you actually counteract your own original point.

    But again, this contradicts Eric and Grubb, thus bringing us back to the commonplace "letting the player interpret" as we have three developers with three different mutually-exclusive takes on the profession. And incidentally, not a single one mentioned honor, valor, or self-discipline.

    Which means there's so much wiggle room, you cannot actually proclaim "this NPC doesn't act like a Guardian", because there is no solid mold for how guardians act. And this extends to all professions.

    So regarding your first point, this seems kind of confusing to me because what philosophies and mental practices they take on seems pretty obvious justbased on what the abilities are. Whether that's battle presence and shouts being a manifestation of Paragon leadership to aid their allies, or meditations being...well....a form of meditation in the style of monks to enhance themselves and the abilities of those around them. The 'what' ties into the 'why' pretty heavily considering that again, things like virtues are physical manifestations of belief in a concept that you conjure for your own use.

    And sure Gavin did take the White Stag away while attacking you with Thorn hounds but he'd by that point announced his intent, if he really wanted to kill you regardless of the dishonor why not, indeed, just stab you while your back is turned? That said I don't exactly buy into the notion that his determination is a facade put on as a product of the Nightmare, hell i'm not even sure I buy into the notion that Gavin isn't a protector if in a nightmarish way. He was doing what he did for that greater good of turning Sylvari into predators, rather then prey as well as freeing them from the Ventari tablet, which in his eyes likely was protecting the Sylvari in some capacity. Further his determination definitely seemed genuine enough if he was willing to fight you, and potentially die, in a duel which also keys into Guardians self sacrificing nature.

    So, for the quotes. The idea that the Dragon Hunter forgos being a protector in favor of being a persecutor kind of feels like missing the forest for the trees. Dragon Hunters are, by nature, highly defensive in how they play and what they do to accomplish their goals, I mean for goodness sakes they have a trait called defenders dogma. Digging in and fortifying an area with traps while using stuff like bulwark to block attacks or hunters verdict to force a trigger seems like a very 'the best offense is a good defense' way to fight. In terms of the actual why of doing it, the Dragon Hunters see it as protecting the innocent by purging the Dragon Corruption from the land, which is pretty consistent with how guardians were framed before.

    The other point you made about that source also just confuses me. This isn't a one or the other situation, you can both be tactical and devout* at the same time, it's not an either or situation.

    I also feel that you're extrapolating on something that isn't really there with the second quote, from what I can tell you seem to feel that the Dragon Hunter being nuanced in how he protects the innocent naturally makes him offensive in nature. Which I would frankly argue the opposite in that Dragonhunters are very defensive they just gear all that defense towards harming the dragons in one way or another. Rather then the best defense being a good offense, it seems more like the best offense is a good defense. I also don't know why you think not a single one of them mentioned honor, valor, or self discipline because that last quote literally has someone mentioning honor and valor.

    I also think you're comparing apples to oranges here. There's a more solid mold for how guardians act in terms of things like defense, or virtue, or leadership because their entire deal basically revolves around holding some form of ideal, trying to purge corruption in some way, shape, or form and holding a more protective attitude. Which makes sense, they are guardians, not attackians.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which means there's so much wiggle room, you cannot actually proclaim "this NPC doesn't act like a Guardian", because there is no solid mold for how guardians act. And this extends to all professions.

    To slightly focus on this part, but this is very true. "What is a necromancer? Well, they can be anything from a graveyard keeper/priest seeking to sooth the dead souls of people... to a frontliner raising bodies of the enemy to reinforce friendly ranks, to a crazed madman holed up in a cave doing sick expiraments."

    What's a thief? Can be everything from a trickester daredevil dancing around the battlefield to an ambusher pirate to a sniper you never see to a military scout to a criminal thief/assassin.

    The guild wars professions have their themes and identities, but they can vary so drastically that the only reason for a group to not have say, necromancers would be "We hate undead completely and totally!". Even the Charr, who don't like magic make full use of elementalists and guardians in their frontline warbands.

    Which was my earlier point. Logan, Braham, Gavin, various guardian npcs, all behave in different ways. There are common themes, but there are differences.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Which means there's so much wiggle room, you cannot actually proclaim "this NPC doesn't act like a Guardian", because there is no solid mold for how guardians act. And this extends to all professions.

    To slightly focus on this part, but this is very true. "What is a necromancer? Well, they can be anything from a graveyard keeper/priest seeking to sooth the dead souls of people... to a frontliner raising bodies of the enemy to reinforce friendly ranks, to a crazed madman holed up in a cave doing sick expiraments."

    What's a thief? Can be everything from a trickester daredevil dancing around the battlefield to an ambusher pirate to a sniper you never see to a military scout to a criminal thief/assassin.

    The guild wars professions have their themes and identities, but they can vary so drastically that the only reason for a group to not have say, necromancers would be "We hate undead completely and totally!". Even the Charr, who don't like magic make full use of elementalists and guardians in their frontline warbands.

    Which was my earlier point. Logan, Braham, Gavin, various guardian npcs, all behave in different ways. There are common themes, but there are differences.

    Which is actually not something i'm contesting at all, but rather i'm saying is those common themes can be a valuable tool for storytelling, and guardians have themes that are a little closer together then most so it may be useful to focus on what makes the Dragon Hunter like those other guardians, but also what sets them apart. It doesn't have to be the most rigid all consuming stance ever, but some insight into what Brahams actual ideology towards the dragons is and why he feels that way beyond just his mother would be an interesting plot hook, something to play around with.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    At the same time he also believed in killing out of necessity, rather then killing wantonly, where other Courtiers had little trouble indulging in their desires. He also felt the work he had done was as part of a greater good, that the freeing of people through despair and cruelty would allow them to shake off the Ventari Tablet and become predators rather then prey. Most Nightmare Courtiers would not challenge someone to a fight in single combat rather then attempt to ambush them in a group, but he did so because he felt that he could still have honor and it was the just thing to do. All of which is to say that Gavins role as a guardian doesn't seem accidental, but rather a twist on the fact that the man had a code which most Nightmare did not.

    And the moment a sylvari he considered a possible recruit refused, he ordered them dead. :P Yes. he had a code, but it was incredibly twisted and his violence/darkness was just as strong as all other nightmare courtiers.

    Just as Paladins in other settings can turn into Blackguards. Doesn't make them any less a Paladin. Just of the dark variety.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    At the same time he also believed in killing out of necessity, rather then killing wantonly, where other Courtiers had little trouble indulging in their desires. He also felt the work he had done was as part of a greater good, that the freeing of people through despair and cruelty would allow them to shake off the Ventari Tablet and become predators rather then prey. Most Nightmare Courtiers would not challenge someone to a fight in single combat rather then attempt to ambush them in a group, but he did so because he felt that he could still have honor and it was the just thing to do. All of which is to say that Gavins role as a guardian doesn't seem accidental, but rather a twist on the fact that the man had a code which most Nightmare did not.

    And the moment a sylvari he considered a possible recruit refused, he ordered them dead. :P Yes. he had a code, but it was incredibly twisted and his violence/darkness was just as strong as all other nightmare courtiers.

    Just as Paladins in other settings can turn into Blackguards. Doesn't make them any less a Paladin. Just of the dark variety.

    And yet, every time I mention dark/evil paladins in regards to those settings I'm immediately corrected and told that they are not paladins, but anti-paladins or blackguards/etc. And it's made quite clear to me that they are not considered a paladin :P.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    At the same time he also believed in killing out of necessity, rather then killing wantonly, where other Courtiers had little trouble indulging in their desires. He also felt the work he had done was as part of a greater good, that the freeing of people through despair and cruelty would allow them to shake off the Ventari Tablet and become predators rather then prey. Most Nightmare Courtiers would not challenge someone to a fight in single combat rather then attempt to ambush them in a group, but he did so because he felt that he could still have honor and it was the just thing to do. All of which is to say that Gavins role as a guardian doesn't seem accidental, but rather a twist on the fact that the man had a code which most Nightmare did not.

    And the moment a sylvari he considered a possible recruit refused, he ordered them dead. :P Yes. he had a code, but it was incredibly twisted and his violence/darkness was just as strong as all other nightmare courtiers.

    Just as Paladins in other settings can turn into Blackguards. Doesn't make them any less a Paladin. Just of the dark variety.

    And yet, every time I mention dark/evil paladins in regards to those settings I'm immediately corrected and told that they are not paladins, but anti-paladins or blackguards/etc. And it's made quite clear to me that they are not considered a paladin :P.

    Scarlet Crusade intensify.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    Specializations, mainly the HoT ones is kinda lore-underveloped. In the Pof this gotta more evolved, but still not enough. This probably started with the thing of "Marjory Delaqua is reaper cuz she gotta the greatsword of his sister", but this in game isnt very developed, is basically a player teory based on implicit facts rather than explicity facts.

    i guess is a very waste of potential, in animes, a characters "evolution", is a big thing and had lot of phases, like DBZ saiyajin becoming a super saiyajin.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    Specializations, mainly the HoT ones is kinda lore-underveloped. In the Pof this gotta more evolved, but still not enough. This probably started with the thing of "Marjory Delaqua is reaper cuz she gotta the greatsword of his sister", but this in game isnt very developed, is basically a player teory based on implicit facts rather than explicity facts.

    i guess is a very waste of potential, in animes, a characters "evolution", is a big thing and had lot of phases, like DBZ saiyajin becoming a super saiyajin.

    Not having proper class lore and identity is my biggest issue with the game. I hate that the classes feel so disconnected from the world they're in. Sometimes feels like my Commander is 1 of only a handful of Guardians in the WORLD. How did my PC learn these skills? Who taught him? Is there a Guardian order of some kind that's just invisible in game? PoF atleast did something but it's still nowhere near good enough.

    It comes down mostly to 2 design decisions they made in development. Not having mobs with player skills and not having questing. I'd imagine that if there were quests in the game, the order halls like the Vigil Keep, would be huge quest hubs and we would have a lot more lore to talk about. Questing would give a reason to have some kind of class guild hall, a place to learn your class and about your class. But no, the devs discarded all that juicy immersion in the name of convenience and metagaming.
    Not having mobs with player skills is another point that gives this feeling. Even the humanoid opponents have 1 or 2 skills at most that resemble player class skills. Unlike GW1 where almost every mob had/has them.

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    It would have been interesting if they had a hybrid system where players could learn a set of skills and traits from home city trainers and then go out into the world and learn more from fighting beasts with similar spell techniques or new trainers on new continents. It could be similar to a collection system, but that's neither here nor there.

    Edit: One additional thought would have been starting with one set of skills and traits based on your character's race, then you could meet with class trainers of other races to learn more about your class and how that race feels about it.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    Specializations, mainly the HoT ones is kinda lore-underveloped. In the Pof this gotta more evolved, but still not enough. This probably started with the thing of "Marjory Delaqua is reaper cuz she gotta the greatsword of his sister", but this in game isnt very developed, is basically a player teory based on implicit facts rather than explicity facts.

    i guess is a very waste of potential, in animes, a characters "evolution", is a big thing and had lot of phases, like DBZ saiyajin becoming a super saiyajin.

    Not having proper class lore and identity is my biggest issue with the game. I hate that the classes feel so disconnected from the world they're in. Sometimes feels like my Commander is 1 of only a handful of Guardians in the WORLD. How did my PC learn these skills? Who taught him? Is there a Guardian order of some kind that's just invisible in game? PoF atleast did something but it's still nowhere near good enough.

    It comes down mostly to 2 design decisions they made in development. Not having mobs with player skills and not having questing. I'd imagine that if there were quests in the game, the order halls like the Vigil Keep, would be huge quest hubs and we would have a lot more lore to talk about. Questing would give a reason to have some kind of class guild hall, a place to learn your class and about your class. But no, the devs discarded all that juicy immersion in the name of convenience and metagaming.
    Not having mobs with player skills is another point that gives this feeling. Even the humanoid opponents have 1 or 2 skills at most that resemble player class skills. Unlike GW1 where almost every mob had/has them.

    The playerbase unwrite law that gw2 design should be around the "everyone can be everything" dont help much, things like "no holy trinity" etc.
    This maximize the matrix of possibilities too much, and the dificult of mechanically make a good implementation of a lore based feature is proportionally inverse to the size of matrix of choices.

    Theres some players that advocate even the professions should be able to use all weapons in the game like "i would like a necro longbow on next expansion"..., how hell one day we can had a decent back-lore of necromancers and please all that "players choices"?

    If something is everything, in the end that "something" is equals a nothing(ex: racial skills), if everyone can be everything is the end everyone equals a nobody(ex: the blank commander character, chaar players entering in the shinning blade), this is the root of all GW2 design flaws.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    The guild wars professions have their themes and identities, but they can vary so drastically that the only reason for a group to not have say, necromancers would be "We hate undead completely and totally!".

    Strictly speaking, even this wouldn't apply: necromancers don't have to raise undead, and in GW1 corpse exploitation was often among the best ways to shut down a minionmaster. They'd need to either have an aversion to necromancy in general, or lack the capability to train or recruit them.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    The guild wars professions have their themes and identities, but they can vary so drastically that the only reason for a group to not have say, necromancers would be "We hate undead completely and totally!".

    Strictly speaking, even this wouldn't apply: necromancers don't have to raise undead, and in GW1 corpse exploitation was often among the best ways to shut down a minionmaster. They'd need to either have an aversion to necromancy in general, or lack the capability to train or recruit them.

    Quite right. In GW1 you could have necromancers who never used corpses or undead. I remember one time we had a team, one blood necro support, one curses, one spite, one minion master. None of us even touched on stuff the others did.

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