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Let people use all profession available weapons...

...at level 1, there is no need to wait for 80 levels in order to use a weapon that for whatever reason, that you thought was valid, was locked behind an elite spec, for an example - hammer and sword for engineers. In fact that profession, can use only 2 weapons - pistol and rifle - for 80 levels! The supposedly smartest profession in this game can't seem to be capable of finding good use for the other weapons.

Comments

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Doesn't work as an idea...... How exactly is a chrono going to use a shield when they can't use an offhand until several levels in?

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Doesn't work as an idea...... How exactly is a chrono going to use a shield when they can't use an offhand until several levels in?

    They'll use it several levels in. Instead of at lvl80.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

    You just stated the obvious, that doesn't end the topic. The thread's suggesting to separate the weapons from their according elite specs, which is not inherently wrong.

    Valid arguments here would be "It would be too difficult to balance" or "They should fix bigger problems first". :wink:

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

    You just stated the obvious, that doesn't end the topic. The thread's suggesting to separate the weapons from their according elite specs, which is not inherently wrong.

    Valid arguments here would be "It would be too difficult to balance" or "They should fix bigger problems first". :wink:

    Thought that's pretty obvious here :D Especs are meant to be unlocked at lvl 80 and they "come in a package" with a weapon. There's no reason to suddenly make those weapons available not only outside of their especs, but also from the earliest levels.

    I can't agree with "They should fix bigger problems first", because I don't think weapons being bound to especs are a problem in the first place ;)

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

    You just stated the obvious, that doesn't end the topic. The thread's suggesting to separate the weapons from their according elite specs, which is not inherently wrong.

    Valid arguments here would be "It would be too difficult to balance" or "They should fix bigger problems first". :wink:

    Thought that's pretty obvious here :D Especs are meant to be unlocked at lvl 80 and they "come in a package" with a weapon. There's no reason to suddenly make those weapons available not only outside of their especs, but also from the earliest levels.

    I can't agree with "They should fix bigger problems first", because I don't think weapons being bound to especs are a problem in the first place ;)

    Well it helps if you say the things you want to say instead of making others have to find out. Sound familiar?

    One reason to separate them is variety, although not a very strong one and i personally don't like it either. But it's quite smug to say eot, i'd rather stay open to suggestions.

    Like "why not make epite specs unlockable on low level if you've unlocked them once already, instead? It would make leveling more fun."

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

    You just stated the obvious, that doesn't end the topic. The thread's suggesting to separate the weapons from their according elite specs, which is not inherently wrong.

    Valid arguments here would be "It would be too difficult to balance" or "They should fix bigger problems first". :wink:

    Thought that's pretty obvious here :D Especs are meant to be unlocked at lvl 80 and they "come in a package" with a weapon. There's no reason to suddenly make those weapons available not only outside of their especs, but also from the earliest levels.

    I can't agree with "They should fix bigger problems first", because I don't think weapons being bound to especs are a problem in the first place ;)

    Well it helps if you say the things you want to say instead of making others have to find out. Sound familiar?

    Actually not at all, why?

    One reason to separate them is variety, although not a very strong one and i personally don't like it either. But it's quite smug to say eot, i'd rather stay open to suggestions.

    Like "why not make epite specs unlockable on low level if you've unlocked them once already, instead? It would make leveling more fun."

    Well, I wouldn't say OP came up with any stronger argument than that, so I'm not sure why you care about my 'lacking justification', but not his. Not to mention that's not even the first thead of this type in here.
    Also my "eot" has no power over anyone whatsoever, so there's really no reason for you to get bent over it that much while taking it so literally.

    Like "why not make epite specs unlockable on low level if you've unlocked them once already, instead? It would make leveling more fun."

    No, it wouldn't (again, as much of an argument as you saying "it would" :p ). And for the same reason you have a seperate map completion, personal story, skills, builds and items for each of your characters.

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Actually not at all, why?

    Thought so

    Well, I wouldn't say OP came up with any stronger argument than that, so I'm not sure why you care about my 'lacking justification', but not his. Not to mention that's not even the first thead of this type in here.
    Also my "eot" has no power over anyone whatsoever, so there's really no reason for you to get bent over it that much while taking it so literally.

    It's not about the argument, it's the communication. Indeed you don't have the authority with eot (unless you are some anet representative) while op said it simply as a suggestion/request.

    No, it wouldn't (again, as much of an argument as you saying "it would" :p ).

    It would make it more fun because it:
    -offers variety during leveling;
    -lets you use the elite spec you like if you don't want to play core.

    What are your arguments against it?

    And for the same reason you have a seperate map completion, personal story, skills, builds and items for each of your characters.

    And separate masteries? ;)
    Besides, you still gotta unlock it, you just don't have to wait for it and grind the expansion hero points, because its cost would be like a regular traitline.

    Personal story is race dependent, map completion makes sense for characters with different levels, separate inventories are good for doing different things with characters while not having to handle all their items at the same time.

    Having already unlocked the elite you already know it, there's no need to introduce things over time, like the first time around. Not to mention there are those elite specs that are gradually different from core, therefore you have to play through 80 levels just to get to your desired playstyle.

    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    for the most part the op stuff in the game comes from traits.
    problems off the top of my head:

    any combo/ spec of teef with rifle + staff
    mirage with shield

    teef weapons can be addressed. shield isn't op by itself but when combo'd with mirage it would be. not an easy solution for that, other then totally reworking mirage cloak. maybe nerfing/ changing IH would be the way to go, but then mirage would have trouble doing any sort of respectable damage.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bogoris.4035 said:
    ...at level 1, there is no need to wait for 80 levels in order to use a weapon that for whatever reason, that you thought was valid, was locked behind an elite spec, for an example - hammer and sword for engineers. In fact that profession, can use only 2 weapons - pistol and rifle - for 80 levels! The supposedly smartest profession in this game can't seem to be capable of finding good use for the other weapons.

    Kits are weapons too!

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

    I mean by that logic lore-wise we should have one class available with all skills, weapons, crafting professions and whatever-else-you-can-think-of because nothing stops other npcs from teaching all of that to the created character. Actually we should start with every achievement and whole map completed because lore-wise we'd easly get that knowledge from other characters.

    Actually lets go with your way: lore-wise elite weapons are strictly tied to the elite specs, which aren't available for the core classes from the start and in order to get proficiency in using them, they need to fully master their specialisations and THEN start training on the elite spec and weapon bind to that style. Those are the sacred lore-rules, there's nothing we can do here :(

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Bogoris.4035 said:
    ...at level 1, there is no need to wait for 80 levels in order to use a weapon that for whatever reason, that you thought was valid, was locked behind an elite spec, for an example - hammer and sword for engineers. In fact that profession, can use only 2 weapons - pistol and rifle - for 80 levels! The supposedly smartest profession in this game can't seem to be capable of finding good use for the other weapons.

    Kits are weapons too!

    True. It also makes sense that "The supposedly smartest profession in this game" refuse to use regular weapons and instead choose to use the ones they 'made'.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

    You just stated the obvious, that doesn't end the topic. The thread's suggesting to separate the weapons from their according elite specs, which is not inherently wrong.

    Valid arguments here would be "It would be too difficult to balance" or "They should fix bigger problems first". :wink:

    Thought that's pretty obvious here :D Especs are meant to be unlocked at lvl 80 and they "come in a package" with a weapon. There's no reason to suddenly make those weapons available not only outside of their especs, but also from the earliest levels.

    I can't agree with "They should fix bigger problems first", because I don't think weapons being bound to especs are a problem in the first place ;)

    especs shouldn't be tight to a specific weapon they should be weapon neutral, hence I mustn't use a specific weapon in order to use an espec, and from that follows that I should be able to use any weapon that are available for my profession starting at level 1.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bogoris.4035 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Espec weapons are parts of especs, eot. :sleeping:

    You just stated the obvious, that doesn't end the topic. The thread's suggesting to separate the weapons from their according elite specs, which is not inherently wrong.

    Valid arguments here would be "It would be too difficult to balance" or "They should fix bigger problems first". :wink:

    Thought that's pretty obvious here :D Especs are meant to be unlocked at lvl 80 and they "come in a package" with a weapon. There's no reason to suddenly make those weapons available not only outside of their especs, but also from the earliest levels.

    I can't agree with "They should fix bigger problems first", because I don't think weapons being bound to especs are a problem in the first place ;)

    especs shouldn't be tight to a specific weapon they should be weapon neutral, hence I mustn't use a specific weapon in order to use an espec, and from that follows that I should be able to use any weapon that are available for my profession starting at level 1.

    Especs aren't tied to the specific weapon, the specific weapon is tied to the especs, hence it should remain tied to the espec that is required to unlock and use it.

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

    I mean by that logic lore-wise we should have one class available with all skills, weapons, crafting professions and whatever-else-you-can-think-of because nothing stops other npcs from teaching all of that to the created character. Actually we should start with every achievement and whole map completed because lore-wise we'd easly get that knowledge from other characters.

    Actually lets go with your way: lore-wise elite weapons are strictly tied to the elite specs, which aren't available for the core classes from the start and in order to get proficiency in using them, they need to fully master their specialisations and THEN start training on the elite spec and weapon bind to that style. Those are the sacred lore-rules, there's nothing we can do here :(

    Found it funny how that's the part you decided to reply to.

    Actually, you just based all that on the mechanics, i don't think it's stated like this in any part of the lore, but prove me wrong.

    And there is a difference between discovery and learning.

    Got anything to say about the rest of that comment? This was just flavour.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

    I mean by that logic lore-wise we should have one class available with all skills, weapons, crafting professions and whatever-else-you-can-think-of because nothing stops other npcs from teaching all of that to the created character. Actually we should start with every achievement and whole map completed because lore-wise we'd easly get that knowledge from other characters.

    Actually lets go with your way: lore-wise elite weapons are strictly tied to the elite specs, which aren't available for the core classes from the start and in order to get proficiency in using them, they need to fully master their specialisations and THEN start training on the elite spec and weapon bind to that style. Those are the sacred lore-rules, there's nothing we can do here :(

    Found it funny how that's the part you decided to reply to.

    What else was I supposed to comment on? Suggesting that mastery being account-wide somehow matters here? (didn't seem like a serious answer though, if I read it correctly? :p ) Saying that it would be "fun to level up with one more weapon available"? Not only it's subjective, it would also be at least a second character from the same class, then we could argue here about it making sense to even to that, we could talk how at that point, people can just level up with xp items (like birthday 20-50 lvl boost or tomes). About you suggesting that especs should be available since lvl 1, while this is a thead about their weapons and not the specs? That personal story is "race dependant" is somehow part of your argument, but then why isn't it shared beteen the characters of the same races? That "map makes sense because of characters having different levels"? I don't even understand what you mean by that tbh :D That you have to get to lvl 80 just to get to the desired especs? You'd already have another character of the same class with the unlocked spec, so not sure how's that an argument here.
    I commented on that one thing, because all of that makes no sense to me, so why would I bother with disassembling your posts and commenting on every single thing that makes -in my opinion- nearly no sense?

    Actually, you just based all that on the mechanics, i don't think it's stated like this in any part of the lore, but prove me wrong.

    ? I honestly don't understand what you mean by that.

    But feel free to tell me how it makes sense that your one character unlocks everything for your other characters. It doesn't make much sense no matter if you base it on "lore" (which in this case seems to be based on your imagination) or mechanics.

    And there is a difference between discovery and learning.

    ?
    Seriously, it would be easier if you started quoting the parts you're responding to instead of just writing 4 seperate sentences that make little to no sense without context. :)

    Got anything to say about the rest of that comment? This was just flavour.

    If there was any flavour here, I sure missed it :p

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

    I mean by that logic lore-wise we should have one class available with all skills, weapons, crafting professions and whatever-else-you-can-think-of because nothing stops other npcs from teaching all of that to the created character. Actually we should start with every achievement and whole map completed because lore-wise we'd easly get that knowledge from other characters.

    Actually lets go with your way: lore-wise elite weapons are strictly tied to the elite specs, which aren't available for the core classes from the start and in order to get proficiency in using them, they need to fully master their specialisations and THEN start training on the elite spec and weapon bind to that style. Those are the sacred lore-rules, there's nothing we can do here :(

    Found it funny how that's the part you decided to reply to.

    What else was I supposed to comment on? Suggesting that mastery being account-wide somehow matters here?

    Mastery was a counterargument to you suggesting that shared things don't exist in gw2

    (didn't seem like a serious answer though, if I read it correctly? :p ) Saying that it would be "fun to level up with one more weapon available"? Not only it's subjective,

    Pretty sure it's not subjective that 5+2=7 and 7>5, and variety is good.

    it would also be at least a second character from the same class, then we could argue here about it making sense to even to that, we could talk how at that point, people can just level up with xp items (like birthday 20-50 lvl boost or tomes).

    This doesn't bring any counterargument in itself or whatsoever.

    About you suggesting that especs should be available since lvl 1, while this is a thead about their weapons and not the specs?

    Yes. It is related.

    That personal story is "race dependant" is somehow part of your argument, but then why isn't it shared beteen the characters of the same races? That "map makes sense because of characters having different levels"? I don't even understand what you mean by that tbh :D That you have to get to lvl 80 just to get to the desired especs? You'd already have another character of the same class with the unlocked spec, so not sure how's that an argument here.

    -I meant that you wouldn't want to go to higher level areas with new characters. And actually, shared map access does exist. But all this doesn't matter because:
    -You are bringing up things that are not related to the topic, they're incomparables. You don't have any actual counterargument, so you could just say "i don't like this idea" or "i don't think this is necessary".

    But feel free to tell me how it makes sense that your one character unlocks everything for your other characters. It doesn't make much sense no matter if you base it on "lore" (which in this case seems to be based on your imagination) or mechanics.

    Obviously it is based on my imagination. It's called an idea. That is what everything starts as. If anet would implement this and put this lore behind it, then it would be lore, that's all there is to this sentence.

    Seriously, it would be easier if you started quoting the parts you're responding to instead of just writing 4 seperate sentences that make little to no sense without context. :)

    You're welcome.

    If there was any flavour here, I sure missed it :p

    Not my problem.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

    I mean by that logic lore-wise we should have one class available with all skills, weapons, crafting professions and whatever-else-you-can-think-of because nothing stops other npcs from teaching all of that to the created character. Actually we should start with every achievement and whole map completed because lore-wise we'd easly get that knowledge from other characters.

    Actually lets go with your way: lore-wise elite weapons are strictly tied to the elite specs, which aren't available for the core classes from the start and in order to get proficiency in using them, they need to fully master their specialisations and THEN start training on the elite spec and weapon bind to that style. Those are the sacred lore-rules, there's nothing we can do here :(

    Found it funny how that's the part you decided to reply to.

    What else was I supposed to comment on? Suggesting that mastery being account-wide somehow matters here?

    Mastery was a counterargument to you suggesting that shared things don't exist in gw2

    Never said that shared things don't exist in gw2, stop making things up.

    Pretty sure it's not subjective that 6+2=8 and 8>6, and variety is good.

    I was answering to you saying "it's fun", which is subjective and your answer here is -again- unrelated to what I wrote.

    I see this is really not worth my time, so... have fun with that, but maybe with someone else who'll take the bait :D

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @rdigeri.7935 said:
    And lore-wise, your character who already mastered the elite can "teach" the new characters, letting them pick up on it faster.

    I mean by that logic lore-wise we should have one class available with all skills, weapons, crafting professions and whatever-else-you-can-think-of because nothing stops other npcs from teaching all of that to the created character. Actually we should start with every achievement and whole map completed because lore-wise we'd easly get that knowledge from other characters.

    Actually lets go with your way: lore-wise elite weapons are strictly tied to the elite specs, which aren't available for the core classes from the start and in order to get proficiency in using them, they need to fully master their specialisations and THEN start training on the elite spec and weapon bind to that style. Those are the sacred lore-rules, there's nothing we can do here :(

    Found it funny how that's the part you decided to reply to.

    What else was I supposed to comment on? Suggesting that mastery being account-wide somehow matters here?

    Mastery was a counterargument to you suggesting that shared things don't exist in gw2

    Never said that shared things don't exist in gw2, stop making things up.

    Pretty sure it's not subjective that 6+2=8 and 8>6, and variety is good.

    I was answering to you saying "it's fun", which is subjective and your answer here is -again- unrelated to what I wrote.

    I see this is really not worth my time, so... have fun with that, but maybe with someone else who'll take the bait :D

    Bait? You're the one trolling here, lol

  • rdigeri.7935rdigeri.7935 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    Never said that shared things don't exist in gw2, stop making things up.

    Yep you didn't. But you did bring character separate things into the argument, as if somehow those made a point.

    Pretty sure it's not subjective that 5+2=7 and 7>5, and variety is good.

    I was answering to you saying "it's fun", which is subjective and your answer here is -again- unrelated to what I wrote.

    It is not. Variety here is the ability to pick elite specs, not just core traits.

    And if you don't understand what i'm saying, maybe don't act like you do?

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bogoris.4035 said:
    ...at level 1, there is no need to wait for 80 levels in order to use a weapon that for whatever reason, that you thought was valid, was locked behind an elite spec, for an example - hammer and sword for engineers. In fact that profession, can use only 2 weapons - pistol and rifle - for 80 levels! The supposedly smartest profession in this game can't seem to be capable of finding good use for the other weapons.

    What makes you good with weapons is training, not how smart you are, especially stuff like hammers or swords.
    Less studying, more training :p

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Because exactly what this game needs is a Core Thief with Staff and Rifle.

  • Bogoris.4035Bogoris.4035 Member ✭✭
    edited October 20, 2019

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Because exactly what this game needs is a Core Thief with Staff and Rifle.

    If you have an issue with thiefs in general that don't have staff and a riffle, then the issue is in the overall design behind the thief profession not the staff and the riffle, and that is what needs to be addressed.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bogoris.4035 said:

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Because exactly what this game needs is a Core Thief with Staff and Rifle.

    If you have an issue with thiefs in general that don't have staff and a riffle, then the issue is in the overall design behind the thief profession not the staff and the riffle, and that is what needs to be addressed.

    He was being sarcastic given that Deadeye rifle is among the strongest single target ranged weapons in game while Daredevil staff is one of the strongest melee cleave weapons. Both with good utility skills as well.

    Core thief with access to both of those weapons with their current performance and power would have to give up a TON of things as to not be insanely overpowered. So yes, thief would "get addressed" severely if he gained access to rifle and staff baseline. I doubt the class would be much fun after though, in any specialization.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Cyn get its. :P

    Even without the Malice stacks, Death's Judgement's baseline damage sits around backstab damage. And Staff has both high sustain damage and burst damage that are independent from DD's trait lines. Combine Deadly Arts, Critstrikes and Trickery, and they get access to extra initiative, AND all the damage bonuses that the Espec normally has to replace. But in exchange, they get the full ranged Steal and frees up a utility slot for whatever.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bogoris.4035 said:
    ...at level 1, there is no need to wait for 80 levels in order to use a weapon that for whatever reason, that you thought was valid, was locked behind an elite spec, for an example - hammer and sword for engineers. In fact that profession, can use only 2 weapons - pistol and rifle - for 80 levels! The supposedly smartest profession in this game can't seem to be capable of finding good use for the other weapons.

    Engineers have kits that replace their weapon skills, those are hard tuned into the class itself and the reason why it doens't have access to many default weapons.
    Tehcnically Engineers have access to tons of weapon skills because of this even without the ability to weapon swap.