How to fix Mirage — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How to fix Mirage

SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 10, 2019 in PVP

disable infinite horizon/ambush from clones, just think about it, why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone? because they don't have infinite horizon, the problem is that clones get mirage cloak and ambush at same time so they can stack forever, just give the clones only the evasion without ambush

3 clones = 3 more stack of all kinds per atk

mirage fixed

<1

Comments

  • Sandzibar.5134Sandzibar.5134 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    So what are the downsides again?

  • Kumouta.4985Kumouta.4985 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    i mean, it isn't very fun to have to dodge everything or get 9 stacks of every damaging condition on me from like 2 button presses by the mirage, so i'm personally all for it getting every nerf possible. I don't have any problems with fighting the class in particular, but from what dmg it does with such ease and its stupid evade/invuln uptime it still seems way overtuned compared to, say, an ele who can only stack like 11 burns in a second but has to use pretty much all their skills for it and barely has a cover condi. I do think that actually being able to kill the clones like i would be able to against a normal non-broken mesmer would remedy its imbalancedness pretty well.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Sandzibar.5134 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    So what are the downsides again?

    Downsizes of deleting a profession from game? Players maining it leaving the game as many already did.

    Let's not blow it out of proportion. OP has made a great suggestion to tone down mirage that is surely over performing. It will only be good for balanced gameplay. Let's bring it on!

  • Halikus.1406Halikus.1406 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    disable infinite horizon/ambush from clones, just think about it, why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone? because they don't have infinite horizon, the problem is that clones get mirage cloak and ambush at same time so they can stack forever, just give the clones only the evasion without ambush

    3 clones = 3 more stack of all kinds per atk

    mirage fixed

    It's actually a good sugestion.
    It would tone down the ridiculous burst and keep the clones survivability. I wouldn't mind this nerf, good idea OP.

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    Doesn't that seem wrong? An optional GM trait dictates an entire class's viability in Conquest?

  • @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    Doesn't that seem wrong? An optional GM trait dictates an entire class's viability in Conquest?

    Ah, I think you've misunderstood him there. What he meant was: "Without this trait, I'll no longer be capable of killing someone(facerollkeyboardwarrior) else with my current skill (nonexistant) and understanding of game like with chrono and other classes that were barely shaved thus making it impossible to play aswell(facerollkeyboardwarrior)".
    It's actually so funny to see how hard people try to justify and defend powercreep, yet I'm pretty sure these people don't even use their core classes anymore for some (un)known reasons.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    disable infinite horizon/ambush from clones, just think about it, why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone? because they don't have infinite horizon, the problem is that clones get mirage cloak and ambush at same time so they can stack forever, just give the clones only the evasion without ambush

    3 clones = 3 more stack of all kinds per atk

    mirage fixed

    @Sandzibar.5134 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    So what are the downsides again?

    In case you didn't notice, the only way for mesmer to put a bit of pressure is via clones ambush (and I'm not fan on this gameplay yeah.), that's why should it be condi or direct mirage it has to :
    1) take most vigor trait + sigil to have a good ambush uptime.
    2) take deceptive evasion + privilegiaite weapon with 2 clones generation to have a good clones uptime.

    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone?

    Because chrono is trash?


    The day mesmer pop 4k+ on every weapon skill like warriors you can ride everything else meanwhile without the pressure from IH, mirage will not kill anything.

  • Halikus.1406Halikus.1406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    disable infinite horizon/ambush from clones, just think about it, why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone? because they don't have infinite horizon, the problem is that clones get mirage cloak and ambush at same time so they can stack forever, just give the clones only the evasion without ambush

    3 clones = 3 more stack of all kinds per atk

    mirage fixed

    @Sandzibar.5134 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    So what are the downsides again?

    In case you didn't notice, the only way for mesmer to put a bit of pressure is via clones ambush (and I'm not fan on this gameplay yeah.), that's why should it be condi or direct mirage it has to :
    1) take most vigor trait + sigil to have a good ambush uptime.
    2) take deceptive evasion + privilegiaite weapon with 2 clones generation to have a good clones uptime.

    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone?

    Because chrono is trash?


    The day mesmer pop 4k+ on every weapon skill like warriors you can ride everything else meanwhile without the pressure from IH, mirage will not kill anything.

    This is also right and it's where come the problem introduced by PoF. The amount of sustain classes have since the latest expansion makes anything with less dmg or burst than PoF levels simply not viable. Although I do like the sugestion without tunning down the sustain classes have we will just be heading into a boring bunker/sustain meta again once all DPS's have been toned down.

    Plus I don't think anyone deserves the Chrono treatment. LoL

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    I’d be fine with this IF:
    Condi shatters are buffed making it the primary damage method.

    Nomads endurance returns to 3 seconds.
    Critical Infusion returns to 5.
    Blinding dissipation returns to all shatters. (Maybe returns ineptitude back to illusions to discourage chaos synergy)
    Jaunts Goes back to 20 second recharge with 3 stacks.
    Illusionary Ambush cooldown is reduced by 15 seconds.
    And Portal is reverted.

    You get to pick. Does Mesmer do lots of front loaded damage? Or does it survive?

    Ppl complained about survivabulity more so than damage, now here we are.

    Pick which one, as much as many of you probably would like it doesn’t get to do neither.

    Frankly I would have preferred the clone spam damage got nerfed initially and we ONLY got the nerf to mirage cloak duration, and Evasive mirror.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    IH is not a problem just most ambushes (the condi ambushes) are not designed well and do overperform. With other words rework condi ambush attacks (and normal condi clone autoattacks they are way stronger than power clones already for no good reason) without killing the active gameplay part and the skill ceiling the trait adds for Powermesmers. During that you need to give Condimesmer more active ways of condi application back (shatters) to not overnerf it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    Doesn't that seem wrong? An optional GM trait dictates an entire class's viability in Conquest?

    Indeed it is wrong. All other mirage traits are trash.

    Sure thing, let's leave the problem unattended instead of fixing what needs to get fixed. If other traits are trash, fix those.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    I wonder why they would take away ip from chrono, but mirage gets to keep it?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    I wonder why they would take away ip from chrono, but mirage gets to keep it?

    becouse they want mesmer to have at least one semiplayable spec.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    disable infinite horizon/ambush from clones, just think about it, why condi chrono cant stack 100k of condis on someone? because they don't have infinite horizon, the problem is that clones get mirage cloak and ambush at same time so they can stack forever, just give the clones only the evasion without ambush

    3 clones = 3 more stack of all kinds per atk

    mirage fixed

    You do understand this is the only mirage can deal.. any damage at all. This is the equivalent of removing shades from scourge or FC from SB. The entire elite will stop working.

    I think Anet corned mirage into playing ranged clone spams where AI does most of the damage. It is an extremely bad design from every angle (and not effective in higher ranks). And no one used to play it when axe was functional. Ranged clones should not deal any damage, but this is a fundamental change that requires major work from Anet to ensure that the elite, the weapons and the class as whole function effectively after the change. In other words, it will never ever happen since Anet devs lack the ability (resources or competence? Not sure anymore) to make such a change.

    Do not try to solo mirage as warrior. Okay?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    Doesn't that seem wrong? An optional GM trait dictates an entire class's viability in Conquest?

    Indeed it is wrong. All other mirage traits are trash.

    Sure thing, let's leave the problem unattended instead of fixing what needs to get fixed. If other traits are trash, fix those.

    Never said they shouldn't fix the others. Other mesmer and I have been writing tons of balance suggestions (nerfs and buffs) since pof released.
    Now nerfing IH without fixing the other traits first would be awful both for mesmers and the game itself.
    And don't get the op and others on this thread wrong, they don't intend to nerf IH and compensate in some other way, they straight out want mesmer deleted from game.

    The degenerate

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭

    HOW TO (actually) FIX MIRAGE:
    remove Mirage Cloak

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    Yeah and Mr " I know everything" is ofc at a good rating with his core mesmer to prove what he said.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I didnt play mirage before it was "broken" after several months of tryharding on mirage, i have worse results then playing core warrior spamming random skills.
    and im kind of sick of trying my kitten hardest to outplay others while everything they have to do is just dont be compleatly stupid to win.
    them winning is a basic outcome, its up to me to to stop it.
    screw 25perma might.
    screw "skilled" kite where you can hit people throught walls
    screw rampage
    screw holo stealth and their sustain
    screw condi thief
    and screw fighting mid against firebrand as team without firebrand

    Saying 'screw GW2 PvP' would have been more succinct.

  • Magolith.9412Magolith.9412 Member ✭✭✭

    imo they should leave all that kitten alone and just disable the evade frame of mirage cloak while CC'd. It would encourage smarter play and reduce survivability of mirage overall without being too heavy handed.

    YouTube | [WS] Mesmer Mag [Fort Aspenwood]

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @LolLookAtMyAP.8394 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Yes, disable the only trait that makes mirage playable.
    And in case you didn't notice chrono is dead since ip nerf.

    Doesn't that seem wrong? An optional GM trait dictates an entire class's viability in Conquest?

    Ah, I think you've misunderstood him there. What he meant was: "Without this trait, I'll no longer be capable of killing someone(facerollkeyboardwarrior) else with my current skill (nonexistant) and understanding of game like with chrono and other classes that were barely shaved thus making it impossible to play aswell(facerollkeyboardwarrior)".
    It's actually so funny to see how hard people try to justify and defend powercreep, yet I'm pretty sure these people don't even use their core classes anymore for some (un)known reasons.

    you know why some defend powercreep? bacause meanwhile chrono was deleted from game, and mirage keeps getting nerf after nerf, holos are still running in easy mode, easy? i should say ps2 spider man's KID MODE! difficulty, so why should we be stripped of our tools we use to counter them? while most of them are still untouched...?

    what are we supposed to do or play until they decide to actually hurt a class that it's obviously overperforming? sit on sides? pve? kitten this game and their balance decisions, can't belive people still complain about condi mirage in the condi thief, holo godmode meta

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I only semi-agree with you.
    Ambushes without IH are on the bad side. With IH some of them are good while others are still meh.
    That's why some of us were telling ANerf to make IH a minor, so ambushes become easier to balance.

    Not sure what you mean sorry. From what i know IH doesn't change ambushes, it just makes clones use ambushes too (or am i wrong in that?), which are for Powermes clearly weaker than the Mesmers own ambush (for example even 3 gs clones together do less dmg than the Engi dodge trait what is range too and way less dmg than the warrior dodge trait), what is good, but on condi the clones ambushes are way too strong, that strong that a Condimesmer can more or less only clones let do the dmg and be defensive most of the fight. The problem starts with core clone normal autoattack already, condi clone autoattacks are way stronger than power dmg clone autoattack (what is like zero, they only do 1 dmg for reveal and proc reasons).
    No opinion about making IH baseline. Could be a good idea, depends on what Anet is doing to balance around that and what new major trait Mesmer gets for IH instead. But giving IH a cooldown or delete it, or give clones no ambush attacks at all or whatever balance suggestions i read until now would just lower the skillceiling for Powermirage and kill an intersting part of active gameplay. And why remove a trait when in the end only some ambushes are the problem and not all?

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    I’d be fine with this IF:
    Condi shatters are buffed making it the primary damage method.

    Nomads endurance returns to 3 seconds.
    Critical Infusion returns to 5.
    Blinding dissipation returns to all shatters. (Maybe returns ineptitude back to illusions to discourage chaos synergy)
    Jaunts Goes back to 20 second recharge with 3 stacks.
    Illusionary Ambush cooldown is reduced by 15 seconds.
    And Portal is reverted.

    You get to pick. Does Mesmer do lots of front loaded damage? Or does it survive?

    Ppl complained about survivabulity more so than damage, now here we are.

    Pick which one, as much as many of you probably would like it doesn’t get to do neither.

    Frankly I would have preferred the clone spam damage got nerfed initially and we ONLY got the nerf to mirage cloak duration, and Evasive mirror.

    .

    @Magolith.9412 said:
    imo they should leave all that kitten alone and just disable the evade frame of mirage cloak while CC'd. It would encourage smarter play and reduce survivability of mirage overall without being too heavy handed.

    More or less where I'm at in terms of what should be done with mesmer. Condition Mesmer should have it's damage compressed away from racking up bleeds and conditions with clone auto attacking nonstop into something focused around a handful of very specific and lethal skill shots it wants to set up. The old school Carrion Ineptitude builds while far too front loaded with condition shatters were overall a healthier playstyle for the game as it's damage revolved around a handful of damaging skills and weren't running Deceptive Evasion so if you could consistently avoid those specific bursts you effectively negated 60% of the mirage's entire damage output.

    Honestly Mirage's damage output is still mostly fine. I think the only nerfs that really needs to be done against Chaos Condi Mirage's damage is make it so clones from Deceptive Evasion don't spawn automatically doing their Ambush Attacks and halving the duration of the clone's Chaotic Vortex the way other Ambush Attacks apply to clones. And while Scepter 2's block is still mostly fine I think the actual counter attack it hit's people with should be a projectile rather than a near instantaneous pulse of damage with no limitation.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I only semi-agree with you.
    Ambushes without IH are on the bad side. With IH some of them are good while others are still meh.
    That's why some of us were telling ANerf to make IH a minor, so ambushes become easier to balance.

    Not sure what you mean sorry. From what i know IH doesn't change ambushes, it just makes clones use ambushes too (or am i wrong in that?), which are for Powermes clearly weaker than the Mesmers own ambush (for example even 3 gs clones together do less dmg than the Engi dodge trait what is range too and way less dmg than the warrior dodge trait), what is good, but on condi the clones ambushes are way too strong, that strong that a Condimesmer can more or less only clones let do the dmg and be defensive most of the fight. The problem starts with core clone normal autoattack already, condi clone autoattacks are way stronger than power dmg clone autoattack (what is like zero, they only do 1 dmg for reveal and proc reasons).
    No opinion about making IH baseline. Could be a good idea, depends on what Anet is doing to balance around that and what new major trait Mesmer gets for IH instead. But giving IH a cooldown or delete it, or give clones no ambush attacks at all or whatever balance suggestions i read until now would just lower the skillceiling for Powermirage and kill an intersting part of active gameplay. And why remove a trait when in the end only some ambushes are the problem and not all?

    Indeed it only makes clones do ambush.
    That's why without IH some ambushes are bad and with it are good, namely the condi ones.
    By making IH minor, clones' ambushes are always taken into account hence ambushes become easier to balance.

    The degenerate

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I only semi-agree with you.
    Ambushes without IH are on the bad side. With IH some of them are good while others are still meh.
    That's why some of us were telling ANerf to make IH a minor, so ambushes become easier to balance.

    Not sure what you mean sorry. From what i know IH doesn't change ambushes, it just makes clones use ambushes too (or am i wrong in that?), which are for Powermes clearly weaker than the Mesmers own ambush (for example even 3 gs clones together do less dmg than the Engi dodge trait what is range too and way less dmg than the warrior dodge trait), what is good, but on condi the clones ambushes are way too strong, that strong that a Condimesmer can more or less only clones let do the dmg and be defensive most of the fight. The problem starts with core clone normal autoattack already, condi clone autoattacks are way stronger than power dmg clone autoattack (what is like zero, they only do 1 dmg for reveal and proc reasons).
    No opinion about making IH baseline. Could be a good idea, depends on what Anet is doing to balance around that and what new major trait Mesmer gets for IH instead. But giving IH a cooldown or delete it, or give clones no ambush attacks at all or whatever balance suggestions i read until now would just lower the skillceiling for Powermirage and kill an intersting part of active gameplay. And why remove a trait when in the end only some ambushes are the problem and not all?

    He mean that most ambush are only efficient with clones.
    Basically burning an evade to staff or scepter ambush for only the mesmer don't worth it because nobody care about 2k telegraphied/ong casting condi.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I only semi-agree with you.
    Ambushes without IH are on the bad side. With IH some of them are good while others are still meh.
    That's why some of us were telling ANerf to make IH a minor, so ambushes become easier to balance.

    Not sure what you mean sorry. From what i know IH doesn't change ambushes, it just makes clones use ambushes too (or am i wrong in that?), which are for Powermes clearly weaker than the Mesmers own ambush (for example even 3 gs clones together do less dmg than the Engi dodge trait what is range too and way less dmg than the warrior dodge trait), what is good, but on condi the clones ambushes are way too strong, that strong that a Condimesmer can more or less only clones let do the dmg and be defensive most of the fight. The problem starts with core clone normal autoattack already, condi clone autoattacks are way stronger than power dmg clone autoattack (what is like zero, they only do 1 dmg for reveal and proc reasons).
    No opinion about making IH baseline. Could be a good idea, depends on what Anet is doing to balance around that and what new major trait Mesmer gets for IH instead. But giving IH a cooldown or delete it, or give clones no ambush attacks at all or whatever balance suggestions i read until now would just lower the skillceiling for Powermirage and kill an intersting part of active gameplay. And why remove a trait when in the end only some ambushes are the problem and not all?

    Indeed it only makes clones do ambush.
    That's why without IH some ambushes are bad and with it are good, namely the condi ones.
    By making IH minor, clones' ambushes are always taken into account hence ambushes become easier to balance.

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I only semi-agree with you.
    Ambushes without IH are on the bad side. With IH some of them are good while others are still meh.
    That's why some of us were telling ANerf to make IH a minor, so ambushes become easier to balance.

    Not sure what you mean sorry. From what i know IH doesn't change ambushes, it just makes clones use ambushes too (or am i wrong in that?), which are for Powermes clearly weaker than the Mesmers own ambush (for example even 3 gs clones together do less dmg than the Engi dodge trait what is range too and way less dmg than the warrior dodge trait), what is good, but on condi the clones ambushes are way too strong, that strong that a Condimesmer can more or less only clones let do the dmg and be defensive most of the fight. The problem starts with core clone normal autoattack already, condi clone autoattacks are way stronger than power dmg clone autoattack (what is like zero, they only do 1 dmg for reveal and proc reasons).
    No opinion about making IH baseline. Could be a good idea, depends on what Anet is doing to balance around that and what new major trait Mesmer gets for IH instead. But giving IH a cooldown or delete it, or give clones no ambush attacks at all or whatever balance suggestions i read until now would just lower the skillceiling for Powermirage and kill an intersting part of active gameplay. And why remove a trait when in the end only some ambushes are the problem and not all?

    He mean that most ambush are only efficient with clones.
    Basically burning an evade to staff or scepter ambush for only the mesmer don't worth it because nobody care about 2k telegraphied/ong casting condi.

    Ok understand.
    Yes i mean why not make it baseline, can't imagine anything speak against that atm.
    Still in general i think Condimes needs less passive clone dmg and more active ways of condi application. It also would be more fun to play, atm it might be effective but kind of boring or not? That is how i feel when playing it at least and i am not even that good on it.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    I only semi-agree with you.
    Ambushes without IH are on the bad side. With IH some of them are good while others are still meh.
    That's why some of us were telling ANerf to make IH a minor, so ambushes become easier to balance.

    Not sure what you mean sorry. From what i know IH doesn't change ambushes, it just makes clones use ambushes too (or am i wrong in that?), which are for Powermes clearly weaker than the Mesmers own ambush (for example even 3 gs clones together do less dmg than the Engi dodge trait what is range too and way less dmg than the warrior dodge trait), what is good, but on condi the clones ambushes are way too strong, that strong that a Condimesmer can more or less only clones let do the dmg and be defensive most of the fight. The problem starts with core clone normal autoattack already, condi clone autoattacks are way stronger than power dmg clone autoattack (what is like zero, they only do 1 dmg for reveal and proc reasons).
    No opinion about making IH baseline. Could be a good idea, depends on what Anet is doing to balance around that and what new major trait Mesmer gets for IH instead. But giving IH a cooldown or delete it, or give clones no ambush attacks at all or whatever balance suggestions i read until now would just lower the skillceiling for Powermirage and kill an intersting part of active gameplay. And why remove a trait when in the end only some ambushes are the problem and not all?

    the reason why IH is a thing is becouse ambushes suck.
    why would I lockmyself on 1s animation to deal AT BEST 4k dmg ( staff ) that can be sidestepped, reflected,cleansed.
    warrior gets to do it without worrying abot reflect or clenses, cant be sidestepped, it also generates might and thus also heals. and its just a minor trait not the elite spec identity.

    thing with ambushes are, they are different.
    IH absolutely changes the ambushes.
    Mesmers sword ambush does some damage and dazes, clone just dazes.
    GS ambush does good damage, clone ambush does low damage but not 0. about 600-800?
    Scepter applies half the duration for clones and full for mesmer. ( damage comes from bleed on crit since confusion is useless )
    Axe clones get reduced damage too.

    As you can see, every single ambush clone attack was specifically nerfed to not be as good as the one mesmer has.
    exept staff. when you think about it clone ambush is better then mesmers ambush since it can apply bleed on crit, lul.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I will find it hilarious if Any listen to this. Then they will move the damage to the player character , because clones shouldn't be doing damage /s, and people will complain because they are still dying.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I will find it hilarious if Any listen to this. Then they will move the damage to the player character , because clones shouldn't be doing damage /s, and people will complain because they are still dying.

    tell us how removing clone ambush will move the damage to player character, waiting forever for your response

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I will find it hilarious if Any listen to this. Then they will move the damage to the player character , because clones shouldn't be doing damage /s, and people will complain because they are still dying.

    tell us how removing clone ambush will move the damage to player character, waiting forever for your response

    Because it's what Anet would do. The complaint is that the clones are doing damage and not the mesmer. Plus it is the offensive grandmaster.

    They could, and likely would increase the amount of damage the players ambush does as a base or increase it based on the number of clones so the trait isn't a) trash and b) the spec isn't lacking damage as the more damage focused of the two elite specs mesmer has.

    Even if they didn't move it to the trait the damage would end up somewhere else on the spec. People would still die and they would still complain because they are dying to mirage.

    Most of the time when people complain about something and suggest ways to make it balance, very seldom is that the case. More often than not it's people suggesting some change to make the class a non-issue to them and their preferred playstyle or perceived level of skill or effectively completely remove the spec from the competitive PvP scene.

    Literally even if mirage was made effectively dumpster tier as long as someone somewhere is losing to the spec, "mirage has never been nerfed", "anets favourite class" etc etc.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm lazy and already made a poignant post about it before so will just quote that:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The problem with mirage is mirage cloak and it's existence, it nullifies balancing by cast time as you can effectively use your defence without interrupting it.

    One of the problems with Chrono was always continuum split, likewise it in many ways nullified balance by cool down.

    Are we seeing a pattern here? When you implement mechanics that circumvent balancing principles you create really obnoxious elite specs and they tend to be on mesmer because....who knows.

    What mirage needs is taking back to the drawing board entirely. Wait not quite, mesmer as a concept needs taking back to the drawing board entirely, clones die to stray farts unless spammed in enough quantity that they and phantasms become a massive visual clutter making the whole thing annoying for people to fight in this low effort, low skill floor spam fiesta that the game has become. It's not a tenable class in it's current iteration, don't get me wrong I like the idea but it doesn't feel fun to play with (certainly without IP) or against for most people.

    Core principles of mesmer identity:
    Boon manipulation - removal, giving, stealing.
    Trickster - Stealth/detarget.
    Budget Guardian in support - smaller area usually, stability, no aegis, good reflect and cleanses.
    Confusion damage - punishes skill spam but torment should be removed almost entirely.
    Interrupts - Always had a large amount of interrupt traits and CC for interrupting.

    The problem with chrono was the idea of doubling up, through chrono phantasma and more importantly continuum split. They removed baseline IP as a nerf around the problem when the reality is they should have reworked the above 2 aspects.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I will find it hilarious if Any listen to this. Then they will move the damage to the player character , because clones shouldn't be doing damage /s, and people will complain because they are still dying.

    tell us how removing clone ambush will move the damage to player character, waiting forever for your response

    Because it's what Anet would do. The complaint is that the clones are doing damage and not the mesmer. Plus it is the offensive grandmaster.

    They could, and likely would increase the amount of damage the players ambush does as a base or increase it based on the number of clones so the trait isn't a) trash and b) the spec isn't lacking damage as the more damage focused of the two elite specs mesmer has.

    Even if they didn't move it to the trait the damage would end up somewhere else on the spec. People would still die and they would still complain because they are dying to mirage.

    Most of the time when people complain about something and suggest ways to make it balance, very seldom is that the case. More often than not it's people suggesting some change to make the class a non-issue to them and their preferred playstyle or perceived level of skill or effectively completely remove the spec from the competitive PvP scene.

    Literally even if mirage was made effectively dumpster tier as long as someone somewhere is losing to the spec, "mirage has never been nerfed", "anets favourite class" etc etc.

    that's what you are saying lol, they only need to remove clone ambush, the clone can still have the evasion for more durability, they can still stack condi dmg, they just need to remove the out of limit condi stacking from ambush, the trait will still be useful since the clones will not die that easily, also mirage is not only infinite horizon, dune cloak is a very good trait but no one use its since IH make mirage op

    The strength of mirage is the mirage cloak plus ambush but should be the strenght only of the character not the clones

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    I will find it hilarious if Any listen to this. Then they will move the damage to the player character , because clones shouldn't be doing damage /s, and people will complain because they are still dying.

    tell us how removing clone ambush will move the damage to player character, waiting forever for your response

    Because it's what Anet would do. The complaint is that the clones are doing damage and not the mesmer. Plus it is the offensive grandmaster.

    They could, and likely would increase the amount of damage the players ambush does as a base or increase it based on the number of clones so the trait isn't a) trash and b) the spec isn't lacking damage as the more damage focused of the two elite specs mesmer has.

    Even if they didn't move it to the trait the damage would end up somewhere else on the spec. People would still die and they would still complain because they are dying to mirage.

    Most of the time when people complain about something and suggest ways to make it balance, very seldom is that the case. More often than not it's people suggesting some change to make the class a non-issue to them and their preferred playstyle or perceived level of skill or effectively completely remove the spec from the competitive PvP scene.

    Literally even if mirage was made effectively dumpster tier as long as someone somewhere is losing to the spec, "mirage has never been nerfed", "anets favourite class" etc etc.

    that's what you are saying lol, they only need to remove clone ambush, the clone can still have the evasion for more durability, they can still stack condi dmg, they just need to remove the out of limit condi stacking from ambush, the trait will still be useful since the clones will not die that easily, also mirage is not only infinite horizon, dune cloak is a very good trait but no one use its since IH make mirage op

    The strength of mirage is the mirage cloak plus ambush but should be the strenght only of the character not the clones

    you realize that removing IH nerfs condimes damage form ambushes by at least 50% and sometiles by 75% or more?
    do you realize that you propose a GRANDMASTER TRAIT to only make clones die less, right?

    immagine same bias for other classes.
    go on warrior forum and propose 75% damage nerf to every single burst skill and see their reaction.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I'm lazy and already made a poignant post about it before so will just quote that:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    The problem with mirage is mirage cloak and it's existence, it nullifies balancing by cast time as you can effectively use your defence without interrupting it.

    One of the problems with Chrono was always continuum split, likewise it in many ways nullified balance by cool down.

    Are we seeing a pattern here? When you implement mechanics that circumvent balancing principles you create really obnoxious elite specs and they tend to be on mesmer because....who knows.

    What mirage needs is taking back to the drawing board entirely. Wait not quite, mesmer as a concept needs taking back to the drawing board entirely, clones die to stray farts unless spammed in enough quantity that they and phantasms become a massive visual clutter making the whole thing annoying for people to fight in this low effort, low skill floor spam fiesta that the game has become. It's not a tenable class in it's current iteration, don't get me wrong I like the idea but it doesn't feel fun to play with (certainly without IP) or against for most people.

    Core principles of mesmer identity:
    Boon manipulation - removal, giving, stealing.
    Trickster - Stealth/detarget.
    Budget Guardian in support - smaller area usually, stability, no aegis, good reflect and cleanses.
    Confusion damage - punishes skill spam but torment should be removed almost entirely.
    Interrupts - Always had a large amount of interrupt traits and CC for interrupting.

    The problem with chrono was the idea of doubling up, through chrono phantasma and more importantly continuum split. They removed baseline IP as a nerf around the problem when the reality is they should have reworked the above 2 aspects.

    yep, when i first saw chrono, looked at contin split and chronophantasma, I already knew why every single phantasm has to be kitten.
    the fact that someone went with it is just hilarious.
    they could make csplit last like 3s, have 60s cd and reset only first 2 abilities you cast, instead of current clown fiesta where you throw every single long important cooldown like its nothing becouse CSPLIT makes it nothing. And becouse this is possible every 105s, chrono has to be utter kitten for the remainder of csplit cd.

  • Don Vega Van Kain.9842Don Vega Van Kain.9842 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    I remember when anet had nerf "Elusive Mind" someone says here "now, ppl have just 1 choice, to play with "Infinite Horizon" and ppl will cry more and u'll regret.

    You know what happen.....

    But i have to admit that if i"m not concentrate, mirage gimme a headache in a fight, other wise, i just follow the clone who run and try to kill him asap before condi kills me.

    Troll since 1982.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

    None of those are weaknesses. 3 out of 4 can be applied to all classes. The 3rd which is destroy the clones is no longer a weakness due to the rate at which mesmer can just summon new clones.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

    None of those are weaknesses. 3 out of 4 can be applied to all classes. The 3rd which is destroy the clones is no longer a weakness due to the rate at which mesmer can just summon new clones.

    "'all class" can pop 4 to 6k damage instantly with no prerequise while mesmer had to rely on kitten clones to do something but yeah it ins't a weakness at all.
    "all class" have more temporisation uptime for most of them by yeah again everyone look what he want to look at.
    "many class" have condiclear in their build by not even specing into it.
    Having a way longer animation cast time than other isn't a weakness ofc. A 1 sec cast staff ambush is as strong as thief/rev 0.25 or 0.5 cast under quickness.
    As far as I know, mirage is the only spec who have to choose between burning a dodge to survive or damage but it's not a weakness at all...

  • Cyric.7813Cyric.7813 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    nerf aegis from chaos field , take out distortion ez

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

    None of those are weaknesses. 3 out of 4 can be applied to all classes. The 3rd which is destroy the clones is no longer a weakness due to the rate at which mesmer can just summon new clones.

    "'all class" can pop 4 to 6k damage instantly with no prerequise while mesmer had to rely on kitten clones to do something but yeah it ins't a weakness at all.
    "all class" have more temporisation uptime for most of them by yeah again everyone look what he want to look at.
    "many class" have condiclear in their build by not even specing into it.
    Having a way longer animation cast time than other isn't a weakness ofc. A 1 sec cast staff ambush is as strong as thief/rev 0.25 or 0.5 cast under quickness.
    As far as I know, mirage is the only spec who have to choose between burning a dodge to survive or damage but it's not a weakness at all...

    There is nothing you have said that illustrates mirage weakness. You continue to name the same thing each other class has. I don't know how long you've been playing this game but everyone has to choose between dodging to survive or doing damage. Maybe you should try playing other classes to broaden your perspective of the game.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

    None of those are weaknesses. 3 out of 4 can be applied to all classes. The 3rd which is destroy the clones is no longer a weakness due to the rate at which mesmer can just summon new clones.

    "'all class" can pop 4 to 6k damage instantly with no prerequise while mesmer had to rely on kitten clones to do something but yeah it ins't a weakness at all.
    "all class" have more temporisation uptime for most of them by yeah again everyone look what he want to look at.
    "many class" have condiclear in their build by not even specing into it.
    Having a way longer animation cast time than other isn't a weakness ofc. A 1 sec cast staff ambush is as strong as thief/rev 0.25 or 0.5 cast under quickness.
    As far as I know, mirage is the only spec who have to choose between burning a dodge to survive or damage but it's not a weakness at all...

    There is nothing you have said that illustrates mirage weakness. You continue to name the same thing each other class has. I don't know how long you've been playing this game but everyone has to choose between dodging to survive or doing damage. Maybe you should try playing other classes to broaden your perspective of the game.

    or mb you should be more specific with your question. you asked MIRAGE,
    so I ask WHAT MIRAGE, condi? hybrid? mantra? janky wonky tank? then I will give you an answear.

  • Infinite Horizon should just be either that your clones can evade, or they can do the ambush, not both. I'd prefer the clones still doing the ambush ability, but they just never evade so you can always cleave them.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Kumouta.4985 said:
    i mean, it isn't very fun to have to dodge everything or get 9 stacks of every damaging condition on me from like 2 button presses by the mirage, so i'm personally all for it getting every nerf possible. I don't have any problems with fighting the class in particular, but from what dmg it does with such ease and its stupid evade/invuln uptime it still seems way overtuned compared to, say, an ele who can only stack like 11 burns in a second but has to use pretty much all their skills for it and barely has a cover condi. I do think that actually being able to kill the clones like i would be able to against a normal non-broken mesmer would remedy its imbalancedness pretty well.

    Your complaint is you have to dodge? How do you deal with other professions?
    Also, ele hasn't had a meta build in what feels like years. You seem to want something easy to deal with, rather than competitive.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

    None of those are weaknesses. 3 out of 4 can be applied to all classes. The 3rd which is destroy the clones is no longer a weakness due to the rate at which mesmer can just summon new clones.

    "'all class" can pop 4 to 6k damage instantly with no prerequise while mesmer had to rely on kitten clones to do something but yeah it ins't a weakness at all.
    "all class" have more temporisation uptime for most of them by yeah again everyone look what he want to look at.
    "many class" have condiclear in their build by not even specing into it.
    Having a way longer animation cast time than other isn't a weakness ofc. A 1 sec cast staff ambush is as strong as thief/rev 0.25 or 0.5 cast under quickness.
    As far as I know, mirage is the only spec who have to choose between burning a dodge to survive or damage but it's not a weakness at all...

    There is nothing you have said that illustrates mirage weakness. You continue to name the same thing each other class has. I don't know how long you've been playing this game but everyone has to choose between dodging to survive or doing damage. Maybe you should try playing other classes to broaden your perspective of the game.

    ?? Maybe play the game ? it's been a long time now that metaclass can do damage and survive.
    Now I open metabattle, for curiosity, what are the weakness of :

    • thief
    • fb
    • rev
    • holo
    • sb

    Describe me please because if you want to feed me with no content you can but I will never ending post asking more details.
    What I wrote are mesmer weakness in general, mirage included. And no other class hasn't the same. But you can continue dreaming about the mirage op spec with no weakness if you want.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:
    A class can be fixed to not overperform when you can identify their weakness. What is Mirages weakness??

    -

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Now the downside :
    1) Easy to LOS.
    2) Obvious animation.
    3) Clones destroyables.
    4) Using evade to attack and defense.

    • Only one breakstunt in a world where other class has minimum one or more 3 sec CC.
    • Weak condiclear if not taking mantra of resolution.
    • An obvious no def CD window. <= that's basically how I win my duel versus other mirages, you just have to count the two evade, then burst ; the first time he will scepter block, the second time he will get hit if he isn't doing op kitting.

    Now I can ask you the same question, what is Mirages strengh ??

    None of those are weaknesses. 3 out of 4 can be applied to all classes. The 3rd which is destroy the clones is no longer a weakness due to the rate at which mesmer can just summon new clones.

    "'all class" can pop 4 to 6k damage instantly with no prerequise while mesmer had to rely on kitten clones to do something but yeah it ins't a weakness at all.
    "all class" have more temporisation uptime for most of them by yeah again everyone look what he want to look at.
    "many class" have condiclear in their build by not even specing into it.
    Having a way longer animation cast time than other isn't a weakness ofc. A 1 sec cast staff ambush is as strong as thief/rev 0.25 or 0.5 cast under quickness.
    As far as I know, mirage is the only spec who have to choose between burning a dodge to survive or damage but it's not a weakness at all...

    There is nothing you have said that illustrates mirage weakness. You continue to name the same thing each other class has. I don't know how long you've been playing this game but everyone has to choose between dodging to survive or doing damage. Maybe you should try playing other classes to broaden your perspective of the game.

    ?? Maybe play the game ? it's been a long time now that metaclass can do damage and survive.
    Now I open metabattle, for curiosity, what are the weakness of :

    • thief
    • fb
    • rev
    • holo
    • sb

    Describe me please because if you want to feed me with no content you can but I will never ending post asking more details.
    What I wrote are mesmer weakness in general, mirage included. And no other class hasn't the same. But you can continue dreaming about the mirage op spec with no weakness if you want.

    With the exception of REV, none of those elite specs really have a weakness. Which is why there are constant complaints about them. The specs that you hear people ask for buffs, are the ones that generally have a apparent weakness. Unfortunately due to how Anet has handled pvp balance, a weakness in a build makes them unfavorable.

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