Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic

sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

<13

Comments

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

    Couldn't tell you. Have you asked them?

    Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight.

    Well that's how it goes sometimes. It's just the nature of training.

    I always hear that damage is low because players arw new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter?

    ... Y... Yes.

    Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

    Off the top of my head, three. 1) If you keep getting CC'd by his slam, that's a DPS loss which leads to 2) The more Updrafts you have to take, the less you're hitting the boss. And 3) If you step in an orb's puddle, it snowballs from there. Knowledge of mechanics trumps everything.

    But these are things I'm sure you know already. This post seems to come from a place of frustration, so all I can say is just hang in there and find the group which is right for you. Be patient, mate (or form a static).

    I have a static already, its not about that. I have just spent a bit more time in LFG groups lately, mostly trainings(25-100LI.) And it just feels weird when you see ~10k phase dps from dps player. And thats low, no matter how many slams you eat during gorseval first phase :D

    edit: im not frustrated just suprised. I also think that that you dont realise how low amount of dps im talking about, like i said its a one thing to deal lower dmg than others, but there is a proplem if your damage is less than it would be with auto attacks only.. even in trainings.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To all the questions there is 1 simple answer:
    People assume they are fine because what they have been doing so far has worked. Open world content requires no build, no rotations, no class undetstanding. Now add in the lack of in game data on performance (not advocating for an ingame damage meter, but it sure would be useful) and overall human lazyness and you get poor performance in more challenging content.

    To most players credit though, unless one specifically decides to prepare and read up on HOW to get batter at the game, there is very little ingame incentive or handholding to teach players how to play. One of the downsides to such an open and preformance rewarding combat system (which is it's main boon and curse at the same time).

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I once had a mother in a raid training on VG having her child moaning in the background. She didn't care about it and only threw out some sentences here there trying to calm it down. It was disgusting to hear a parent behaving like this and I politely asked if it wouldn't be better to do something with her child but she refused.
    On the other hand she was obviously not focussing on playing neither and her performance was worse than just autoattacking. Not to mention that as an ele she was downstate every other second and got ported way too often.
    Being in the game since 2013 and a frequent dungeon runner it wasn't my first and not my last meeting with a very underperforming player but one i'll barely forget.
    People are just...people.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I once had a mother in a raid training on VG having her child moaning in the background. She didn't care about it and only threw out some sentences here there trying to calm it down. It was disgusting to hear a parent behaving like this and I politely asked if it wouldn't be better to do something with her child but she refused.
    On the other hand she was obviously not focussing on playing neither and her performance was worse than just autoattacking. Not to mention that as an ele she was downstate every other second and got ported way too often.
    Being in the game since 2013 and a frequent dungeon runner it wasn't my first and not my last meeting with a very underperforming player but one i'll barely forget.
    People are just...people.

    Kind of reminds me of my favorite "pug experience" which involved us inviting a lady who thought it would be okey for our entire training squad to witness a big family argument in the background between her, her husband and their teenage daughter with lots of rage and melodrama. She kept talking to us and calling out things calmly while yelling back at them. I even asked if she needed a break but "No, I am good". This went on for like ten minutes with everyone present being quite unsure how to react.
    One of the weirdest experiences I have had on voice. And yeah, her performance was about as far from terrific as it gets. Including pretending she had any experience on Sloth or any clue about how to play Soulbeast or gearing or anything really...

    Anyways, if anyone wants an indication on what they may expect out of quite a few of these raiding newbies they should just go and do the Strike Mission with a public squad. You will see people who would swear they are a DPS with major damage and good gear and all that while they actuall fall into the 1/10-of-the-DPS-of-a-hardcore-player roster ArenaNet was talking about. The game simply does not require you to get anywhere close to min-maxing any part of your build until you try to get into raiding. There they experience the harsh difference between their terribly inefficient level builds and actual META builds as well as the dfference in play between someone who has mostly only used one or two skills on Open World monsters and someone who actually reached a decent level of play.
    Players think you need to start raiding as soon as you hit max level like in other games. It is hard to blame them as dungeons are dead, Open World got nerfed to oblivion as far as difficulty is concerned and Fractals (at least the lower tiers) just don't seem as flashy as raids.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    But these are things I'm sure you know already. This post seems to come from a place of frustration, so all I can say is just hang in there and find the group which is right for you. Be patient, mate (or form a static).

    I have a static already, its not about that. I have just spent a bit more time in LFG groups lately, mostly trainings(25-100LI.) And it just feels weird when you see ~10k phase dps from dps player. And thats low, no matter how many slams you eat during gorseval first phase :D

    edit: im not frustrated just suprised. I also think that that you dont realise how low amount of dps im talking about, like i said its a one thing to deal lower dmg than others, but there is a proplem if your damage is less than it would be with auto attacks only.. even in trainings.

    That's completely normal in training. My initial group started this low. Even people that do fine on golem can easily go below 10k on their first raid bosses. Not knowing the mechanics (no, just watching the YT vid is not enough to really know them) introduces chaos. People panic, and any mechanic they have to deal with is going to disrupt the rotation. It takes many, many attempts, or a very special emotional state, to get past that. It's only when the mechanics become something players react to on instinct that things become better.

    I was talking about gorseval first phase dps, dont mix total dps and phase dps here now :) and its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66% sure if you go down during CC phase and no1 rez you. But when i check logs and see that dps players stayed alive the whole phase and all/most slams were blocked it isn't a normal thing anymore.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66%

    It is normal if you have people with almost 0 raid experience and have died thousand times before getting VG down with their group just before. 25-100 LI isn't training btw. so yeah. In such groups one should expect at least 10k DPS but again everything aforementioned things can be applied here as well.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    I was talking about gorseval first phase dps, dont mix total dps and phase dps here now :) and its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66% sure if you go down during CC phase and no1 rez you. But when i check logs and see that dps players stayed alive the whole phase and all/most slams were blocked it isn't a normal thing anymore.

    For "normal" players that are just training on gorse and do not have experience with that fight it is already good if they don't go down due to retal. Notice though, that those "normal" players usually achieve that by stopping attacking completely during that phase. Or by going back to avoid standing in black area...and realizing they have only melee option available, and now they are too far from boss to use it. I have seen staff daredevils (at the time when just autoattacking alone dealt massive damage output, and for most people was a dps increase over standard rota) go below 10k due to that, for example.

    It's probably very long time since you had anything to do with players that were truly new to the content, and you might have forgotten how bad might that be. Either that, or you already started with a group of more experienced and more hardcore players, and never even saw what average raiders need to get through first before they get good.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66%

    It is normal if you have people with almost 0 raid experience and have died thousand times before getting VG down with their group just before. 25-100 LI isn't training btw. so yeah. In such groups one should expect at least 10k DPS but again everything aforementioned things can be applied here as well.

    Lets be real here, even 250LI runs feels like trainings every now and then. And lack of dps is the thing that makes many fights harder. Take some1 who have never done raids but does t4s+CMs daily, you think they will underperform that much aswell coz they are new to raids?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    I was talking about gorseval first phase dps, dont mix total dps and phase dps here now :) and its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66% sure if you go down during CC phase and no1 rez you. But when i check logs and see that dps players stayed alive the whole phase and all/most slams were blocked it isn't a normal thing anymore.

    For "normal" players that are just training on gorse and do not have experience with that fight it is already good if they don't go down due to retal. Notice though, that those "normal" players usually achieve that by stopping attacking completely during that phase. Or by going back to avoid standing in black area...and realizing they have only melee option available, and now they are too far from boss to use it. I have seen staff daredevils (at the time when just autoattacking alone dealt massive damage output, and for most people was a dps increase over standard rota) go below 10k due to that, for example.

    It's probably very long time since you had anything to do with players that were truly new to the content, and you might have forgotten how bad might that be. Either that, or you already started with a group of more experienced and more hardcore players, and never even saw what average raiders need to get through first before they get good.

    Actually no its not. Im leading few raid guilds and one of them is a raid training guild. Our trainees are able to do good amount of dps even tho they are new, thats the main reason why i was so shocked about those low LI lfg groups. Sometimes it feels that some newer raiders haven't even checked their rotations. Ofc i dont expect a perfect rotation from trainee, but atleast i expect trainees to understand basics of their class and not use skills that are not part of their rotations etc.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    its not normal to deal less than 10k between 100%-66%

    It is normal if you have people with almost 0 raid experience and have died thousand times before getting VG down with their group just before. 25-100 LI isn't training btw. so yeah. In such groups one should expect at least 10k DPS but again everything aforementioned things can be applied here as well.

    Lets be real here, even 250LI runs feels like trainings every now and then. And lack of dps is the thing that makes many fights harder. Take some1 who have never done raids but does t4s+CMs daily, you think they will underperform that much aswell coz they are new to raids?

    But that's due to the overall decrease in raid population. There's a massive efflux of players after the release of wing 7 (and before as well). This will be reinforced over the next months because there's no wing 8 on the horizon, neither addition for fractals (as well as no new CM) and the latest announcements of templates and MO leaving the company will add the rest to it.

    Additionally you must not forget not everyone starts raiding after fractal cms, some of them don't even do T4s on a regular basis. And for T4s you don't need a dps meter or anything else. People with knowledge of the mechanics and a decent sustain level (druid, healtempest, healbrand, healscourge or healrene) will pass them without problems. Before I stopped doing fractals completely firstly I stepped down from CMs and the difference between CM groups doing T4s and usual T4 groups with player experience is just that the latter needs more time (additional 10-15 min.) to get through. Players from this category don't use dps meters and don't know that they're dealing below 10k. 5-9k is enough to have a very very very easy life in fractals.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    The tier system for pve skill goes as follows (with some outliers, but in general this will hold true for most players) off the top of my head and experience:

    Low Skill/Performance
    1.) Open World
    2.) challenging story missions
    3.) T1-2 fractals
    4.) challenging world bosses which can't be overstacked (Tripple Trouble, pre nerf Tequatle, Dragon Stand sub bosses, etc.)
    5.) T3-4 fractals
    6.) PUBLIC raids on easy raid bosses
    7.) T4 CM fractals
    8.) ORGANIZED raid training on easy bosses (aka guilds, discord, semi static training group core)
    9.) PUBLIC raids on hard raid bosses
    10.) ORGANIZED raids on hard raid bosses
    11.) Top tier raid guilds
    High Skill/Performance

    Basically if you are running in an organized guild training group or discord, you will improve your performance past T4 fractals and easy raid bosses quite fast if you are an adept player. The overall performance in public raids is terrible, even worse on trainings, always has been. It's one of the main reasons why I always encourage players to find a raid guild. Public trainings are just painful (still cudos to all commanders who give it a shot and keep trying to get people into raiding this way).

    As such, having players do around 10k damage on something like Gorseval first phase (which is basically a damage golem scenario) is absolutely possible. Most of these players have probably not passed anything harder than fractal T2 or similar content if at all.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids have a catch 22
    Most groups want people to present kill proof
    New players wont have kill proof

    How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.
    Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

    People cant learn to get better if others wont help them
    Even if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.
    Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

    The issue is that people dont give that hand.

    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    on the flip side im a pretty casual player ive had 250 kp players go down on and or cause wipes in groups making mistakes i didnt or rarely make. But they present themselves like they are gods. overall the kp system the raid community has made has a fair share of problems.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Raids have a catch 22
    Most groups want people to present kill proof
    New players wont have kill proof

    How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.
    Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

    I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

    No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    People cant learn to get better if others wont help them
    Even if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.
    Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

    The issue is that people dont give that hand.

    You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

    Net result: skilled players go in organized and as semi statics low manning the content. Random low skill players are auto paired with other low skill players. Everyone inbetween stops doing strikes.

    All of that with decent strike rewards mind you, which are currently not present. That's pretty much where the current strike is headed right now, even at its very low difficulty.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

    With gorseval yes actually a lot of players dont know that some players dont know that some classes can get away with hitting him while he is pounding while some dont.
    Having passive retaliation some professions can actually get away with hitting him and out healing it guardians and sometimes berserkers being prime examples with their heals which will out heal the passive retaliation damage and the burst of damage from the ground.
    Then you have weavers who dont know that they cannot touch him at all because their skills hit way too many times per second so the retaliation instantly kills them.
    You can know your rotation and not think about things like this and still cause massive problems.

    As a necro on gorseval i generally dont stop slapping him during the pound phase because of my high hp pool and our healers generally keep me topped off standing in his corrosive ground burst dont ever get close to killing me (it would take about 3 of them to down me) in some cases there is more to knowing your own class. Practicing your rotations on a golem and fighting a raid boss itself is not the same thing. You have to be adaptable (and not in the sense that you play alot of classes) but in the sense that you have to know what you can and cant get away with based on what you are playing.

    Should you clear the orbs for the group because no one else is doing it or not?
    Should you dps a bit harder during the pound phase because you know you can get away with it or not?
    Should the commander of the raid make changes to do something out of the norm if an issue keeps happening that prevents the group from clearing.
    Maybe after the 33% we should just use an updraft to confirm the kill because our dps is a tiny bit low and the group has wiped 3 times at this point.
    The solution is not always insta kick.

    Knowing your class is one thing knowing how to make the most of your class on a given situation is another.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Raids have a catch 22
    Most groups want people to present kill proof
    New players wont have kill proof

    How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.
    Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

    I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

    You didnt read what i wrote properly try again.
    I said that groups often require kp

    I never wrote training groups required kp you didnt read properly dont insert words in my mouth

    No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).

    This is obvious but regardless how can you get a not new raid player into these raids if they always require kp being new or not new does not change anything. A person can be experienced in every wing except wing 5 and and possibly still wont be able to get in because he has no kp from that wing despite his experience.
    As i said catch 22

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    People cant learn to get better if others wont help them
    Even if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.
    Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

    The issue is that people dont give that hand.

    You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

    As i said catch 22 prime example right here.
    Trainings dont happen as often as you think. Even when they do it does not mean they are always successful either.
    If a person can only do trainings all the way up to 50-75kp do you know the ridiculous amount of time this would require some bosses dont even get training runs commonly.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

    If anet does it properly that wont happen
    The issue is that right now as easy as the current strike is a 3-5 exp man can do it with plenty of time to spare a pug of 5-7 can do it with plenty of time to spare 10 is not even a challenge. So while you are doing it with your friend there wont ever be a situation where a player is instantly kicked for something like kp.

    Raids do not work like strikes there is no public join with pugs because pug groups still ask for kp.

    Net result: skilled players go in organized and as semi statics low manning the content. Random low skill players are auto paired with other low skill players. Everyone inbetween stops doing strikes.

    Strikes wont be as hard as raids as anet has said so i dont think pugs will have an issue clearing them.

    All of that with decent strike rewards mind you, which are currently not present. That's pretty much where the current strike is headed right now, even at its very low difficulty.

    The current strike was 100% meant to be low difficulty. Its meant to introduce players who possibly have never done fractals or raids to an instanced boss. They did say that difficulty will be increasing in episode 1 and 2.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I personally consider raid trainings a success if it results in players gaining more familiarity with that raid’s mechanics along with improving their DPS rotation towards that raid. Getting a kill is simply a bonus.

    I personally wouldn’t rely on raid trainings alone to obtain KP or even to get raid experience as they don’t occur often. Some Twitch streamers do offer training but it’s only advertised on their channel/discord so many who don’t follow them would know nothing about it.

    If someone is looking to get into raids, the best way is to simply join a guild that is willing to train. There are many that still do that. In the meantime, just pick a power DPS and condi DPS build and practice the rotations. The more familiar you get with them, the more focus can be spent on learning a particular raid’s mechanics without sacrificing too much DPS.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Raids have a catch 22
    Most groups want people to present kill proof
    New players wont have kill proof

    How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.
    Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

    I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

    You didnt read what i wrote properly try again.
    I said that groups often require kp

    I never wrote training groups required kp you didnt read properly dont insert words in my mouth

    Yes, I corrected your comment since you made a general argument which is faulty in multiple places. New players should not be joining non trainng runs to begin with. As such your complaint that groups require KP is of no consequence to new players since they shouln't be running in KP groups to begin with.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).

    This is obvious but regardless how can you get a not new raid player into these raids if they always require kp being new or not new does not change anything. A person can be experienced in every wing except wing 5 and and possibly still wont be able to get in because he has no kp from that wing despite his experience.
    As i said catch 22

    There is training runs and kill with less KP or no KP trainings for more difficult bosses. These are more seldom in PUG and LFG and more common in raid guilds and discords. Getting experience on difficult raids via LFG is a lot more diificult than it has to be. Which makes sense for content which was designed for organized groups.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    People cant learn to get better if others wont help them
    Even if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.
    Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

    The issue is that people dont give that hand.

    You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

    As i said catch 22 prime example right here.
    Trainings dont happen as often as you think. Even when they do it does not mean they are always successful either.
    If a person can only do trainings all the way up to 50-75kp do you know the ridiculous amount of time this would require some bosses dont even get training runs commonly.

    Trainings are regular and daily, by the dozens and more groups. There is trainings discords with thousands of players. Yes, if you limit yourself to the ingame LFG only you will not have access to all training runs.

    If people want to LFG and public all their raids, then their path will be more difficult. There is tons of guilds recruiting all the time, and most do not care about KP. On the contrary, most raid guilds would love to take in semi experienced players who already know the basics.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

    If anet does it properly that wont happen
    The issue is that right now as easy as the current strike is a 3-5 exp man can do it with plenty of time to spare a pug of 5-7 can do it with plenty of time to spare 10 is not even a challenge. So while you are doing it with your friend there wont ever be a situation where a player is instantly kicked for something like kp.

    Raids do not work like strikes there is no public join with pugs because pug groups still ask for kp.

    No, you are associating KP with access. KP is a poor method of measuring a players experience. Experience will ALWAYS get measured with more difficult content in some way or another, or more experienced players will start running in closed groups because the risk becomes to high of taking in terrible players.

    People really need to stop talking about the method of gate keeping as the reason for the gate keeping. Those 2 are not the same and never will be. There will always be some kind of gatekeeping if content is difficult enough. Worst form would be guild only runs because access to those would be completely closed to public players.

    As far as your exmaples, we are currently for the first strike at:

    • it can be soloed by 1 very experienced person
    • it can get failed by 10 gimps

    The saving grace is that it's so easy and does not scale, that experienced players might not care if they have to carry 4-8 bad players. Suffice to say, this would change with better rewards and higher challenge. Or put differently: at this level of difficulty rewards for strikes will no increase.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Net result: skilled players go in organized and as semi statics low manning the content. Random low skill players are auto paired with other low skill players. Everyone inbetween stops doing strikes.

    Strikes wont be as hard as raids as anet has said so i dont think pugs will have an issue clearing them.

    Some PUGs have an issue now...

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    All of that with decent strike rewards mind you, which are currently not present. That's pretty much where the current strike is headed right now, even at its very low difficulty.

    The current strike was 100% meant to be low difficulty. Its meant to introduce players who possibly have never done fractals or raids to an instanced boss. They did say that difficulty will be increasing in episode 1 and 2.

    and we will see what happens then.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    Maybe we won't see KPs for strikes but it has already begun: Today someone didn't port to the shrine within 1 minute after the commander said all should port. The player was instantly kicked by him.
    So, in the future I expect to see more of such stuff and players that are not heavily interested in this content and/or the rewards will avoid it. You need to have a special mindset and to not be discouraged by such a__holes and a lot of the GW2 players are just not into that kind of stuff.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 8, 2019

    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

    Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

    Posts like these do wonders to attract new players to raids.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Why does players asume that its ok to pull bad dps numbers and still be accepted into groups without any proplem? When i say bad i dont mean a bit lower numbers than some1 who has killed boss multiple times already but just simply really low amount of dps.

    Same thing with training raids, players asume that they dont need to know their class or rotation because its a training. However they will make said training alot harder for others to train when they simply cant pull their own weight. I always hear that damage is low because players are new to encounter, and that makes me think.. does that really matter? Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

    Posts like these do wonders to attract new players to raids.

    Meh, raids are not a place to learn what gear you should use or what skills you should use and what skills not to use🤷‍♀️

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • When it comes to new players I don't think that doing bad DPS is something to be ashamed of, as it's likely they're unaware of resources out there. I did kick a guy in a raid training once, after numerous covert requests from fellow squad members because of his DPS. I suppose people are not "required" to do good damage to complete the encounter. I'd say roughly 90-95% of players in general lfg raids don't pull their own weight when it comes to damage. The disparity between good players and average players is considerable. Unless someone is doing terrible damage I don't consider it an issue. And I don't expect much from average players to begin with

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    Depends on group. T4+CM groups? Yes, definitely. Just T4 groups? Not really.
    Before raids happened, a huge majority of players didn't even know what "rotation" meant (or thought you were talking about SPvP). Even though the word and its meaning has become more popular since then, i'm sure that still quite a number of players will have no idea what you;re talking about.
    Remember, most players do not watch YT guides, do not read reddit or forums, and do not check stuff outside game in general. They are there to play the game, not read stuff. I'm surprised you haven't noticed that in the past 7 years.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    Depends on group. T4+CM groups? Yes, definitely. Just T4 groups? Not really.
    Before raids happened, a huge majority of players didn't even know what "rotation" meant (or thought you were talking about SPvP). Even though the word and its meaning has become more popular since then, i'm sure that still quite a number of players will have no idea what you;re talking about.
    Remember, most players do not watch YT guides, do not read reddit or forums, and do not check stuff outside game in general. They are there to play the game, not read stuff. I'm surprised you haven't noticed that in the past 7 years.

    Thats true, gw2 doesn't really teach stuff to players. But still, for raids i dont expect to get warriors in full soldier gear to fill the dps spot.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Painbow.6059 said:
    When it comes to new players I don't think that doing bad DPS is something to be ashamed of, as it's likely they're unaware of resources out there. I did kick a guy in a raid training once, after numerous covert requests from fellow squad members because of his DPS. I suppose people are not "required" to do good damage to complete the encounter. I'd say roughly 90-95% of players in general lfg raids don't pull their own weight when it comes to damage. The disparity between good players and average players is considerable. Unless someone is doing terrible damage I don't consider it an issue. And I don't expect much from average players to begin with

    Yes, there is a difderence between lowish and terrible damage. Atm im talking about that terrible damage. I dont expect to see players in soldier gear in raids, or p/p daredevils stuff like that. Damage is a proplem when you do lower amount of dps than your supports.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    Maybe we won't see KPs for strikes but it has already begun: Today someone didn't port to the shrine within 1 minute after the commander said all should port. The player was instantly kicked by him.
    So, in the future I expect to see more of such stuff and players that are not heavily interested in this content and/or the rewards will avoid it. You need to have a special mindset and to not be discouraged by such a__holes and a lot of the GW2 players are just not into that kind of stuff.

    There is a fine line between ignorance and lack of skill/experince your example just shows ignorance which is 100% something someone should be kicked for.
    He was asked and did not comply for a simple task.
    With raids simply saying "Do mechanic right 100% or kick" is not the same thing even more so if some one has only done the encounter a few times. RNG factor comes into play and something might happen in a way they did not expect resulting in them failing said mechanic in which case i dont think the person should be kicked.
    KC, Slothasur, and Souless Horror are good bosses that have a great rng factors that can 100% screw a person up.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Raids have a catch 22
    Most groups want people to present kill proof
    New players wont have kill proof

    How can a new player present kill proof if they never get to play the content.
    Overall unless you know some one who is going to lead and organize the raid itself you dont get to go. Every once in a while a kind stranger will offer trainings but still thats not enough.

    I have yet to see a trainig raid for new players which demands kill proof.

    You didnt read what i wrote properly try again.
    I said that groups often require kp

    I never wrote training groups required kp you didnt read properly dont insert words in my mouth

    Yes, I corrected your comment since you made a general argument which is faulty in multiple places. New players should not be joining non trainng runs to begin with. As such your complaint that groups require KP is of no consequence to new players since they shouln't be running in KP groups to begin with.

    No thanks
    I appreciate your attempts but you didn't read properly or you chose to purposely respond improperly.
    There was no need to correct something that was not incorrect lets have a serious conversation and stop beating around the bush. IF you are going to take everything with this kind of mind set and approach i wont bother talking to you because in the end it wont matter what i say you will just "correct me" as you see fit.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, Dhuum or other more difficult bosses are not new raid player material. Yet even those have trainings which often state no KP but only knowledge of the mechanics (from sources like videos or guides).

    This is obvious but regardless how can you get a not new raid player into these raids if they always require kp being new or not new does not change anything. A person can be experienced in every wing except wing 5 and and possibly still wont be able to get in because he has no kp from that wing despite his experience.
    As i said catch 22

    There is training runs and kill with less KP or no KP trainings for more difficult bosses. These are more seldom in PUG and LFG and more common in raid guilds and discords. Getting experience on difficult raids via LFG is a lot more diificult than it has to be. Which makes sense for content which was designed for organized groups.

    I already know this which is why i said most groups (didnt include the word training) require kp. THIS means that im speaking about non training runs.
    And then there are training runs which generally dont require kp but they are far and few. Say some one wants to learn wing 4 there might not be an open training run for wing 4 for hours, days, weeks, on a persons time frame in which they can play. This is way vet or average raiders saying oh people should just do training if they want to join is not feasible. If some one can only play weekends for a few hours and no training runs pop up for the wings they are looking for in that time frame they cannot get kp.

    I play daily and when i was looking for training runs they were very few in number. Even if a training run pops up if there are no spot for the role you are trying to take you cannot get in.

    My point is that your faith in training runs is just a bit too high then farther down in this you say KP is a poor measure of skill.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    People cant learn to get better if others wont help them
    Even if some one is pulling bad dps numbers there are raids were one if not several players can be slacking and the raid still be cleared with relative ease.
    Suggest them to practice their builds and give them resources but dont just insta kick them. Most players if they really want to learn and get better will do so very quickly if you give them a hand.

    The issue is that people dont give that hand.

    You give that hand in trainings, not during clears.

    As i said catch 22 prime example right here.
    Trainings dont happen as often as you think. Even when they do it does not mean they are always successful either.
    If a person can only do trainings all the way up to 50-75kp do you know the ridiculous amount of time this would require some bosses dont even get training runs commonly.

    Trainings are regular and daily, by the dozens and more groups. There is trainings discords with thousands of players. Yes, if you limit yourself to the ingame LFG only you will not have access to all training runs.

    How will an average player know this?
    You know this
    I know this
    How will someone who just mastered t4 fractals know this and he is looking to get into raids for the first time?

    If people want to LFG and public all their raids, then their path will be more difficult. There is tons of guilds recruiting all the time, and most do not care about KP. On the contrary, most raid guilds would love to take in semi experienced players who already know the basics.

    This is the only sensible thing you have said so far. And this maybe true with the exception of the word "tons" That might be going a bit over the top and it still does not mean that a player will have the time or option to join that guilds training run if the runs occur at a time where the player is unable to access the game.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    Thats why strikes are going to become a thing. Hopefully without generating kill proof as thats one of the biggest things that splits raid vets, average players who just want to enjoy end game, and new players looking to experience end game. ITs hard to join a raid when the squad leader wants 50+ or 80 kp and you are pretty new to raiding as a whole.

    and strikes will result in the same scenario as raids, just with an automated system in place which will eventually drain the skilled players out if the average performance drops to low. If it's faster to simply get 2-3 friends/guild mates/etc. to fast clear a strike for maximum reward, that's what experienced players will do if the average squad of 10 randoms has issue clearing the strike.

    If anet does it properly that wont happen
    The issue is that right now as easy as the current strike is a 3-5 exp man can do it with plenty of time to spare a pug of 5-7 can do it with plenty of time to spare 10 is not even a challenge. So while you are doing it with your friend there wont ever be a situation where a player is instantly kicked for something like kp.

    Raids do not work like strikes there is no public join with pugs because pug groups still ask for kp.

    No, you are associating KP with access. KP is a poor method of measuring a players experience. Experience will ALWAYS get measured with more difficult content in some way or another, or more experienced players will start running in closed groups because the risk becomes to high of taking in terrible players.

    So let me ask you this
    If kp is needed with access but you are not telling me that i should not be accosiating with that very thing but thats the very thing its used for.
    You also say its a poor method of measuring exp.
    But how can you measure a persons exp if they do not have access to even join that content.

    Even if what you say is true then the result is the same people who cant pug or easily have access to trainings will not grow very fast at all. Yet people come here asking why others are bad. Well there is a link somewhere.

    People really need to stop talking about the method of gate keeping as the reason for the gate keeping. Those 2 are not the same and never will be. There will always be some kind of gatekeeping if content is difficult enough. Worst form would be guild only runs because access to those would be completely closed to public players.

    sorry to say i don't agree and you can take that how you will. Gate keeping should always be considered.
    I agree that there will always be some kind of gate keeping my argument is not that gate keeping should vanish completely just that it slows people from being able to expand their skills and knowledge by a great deal.
    Its harder possibly you might know for new players to get involved, Even with this swell of info you have provided which some of is true it does not mean its dead obvious for new players looking to get into end game. I know for me it was not the case. ;)

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In the next LS map, they should add an adventure which is just beating down a training golem as fast as possible. Maybe that would push people to learn to max out their DPS.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Just throwing this out there, I did Raids, got pretty good at them, static group and all, got what I needed... and for this thread up to where I am responding now, reading all of it.... is EXACTLY why I stay the kitten away from raids now. "2 cents"

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    So let me ask you this
    If kp is needed with access but you are not telling me that i should not be accosiating with that very thing but thats the very thing its used for.
    You also say its a poor method of measuring exp.
    But how can you measure a persons exp if they do not have access to even join that content.

    Obviously, someone that has never accessed the content, has zero (or near zero) experience with that content.

    Even if what you say is true then the result is the same people who cant pug or easily have access to trainings will not grow very fast at all. Yet people come here asking why others are bad. Well there is a link somewhere.

    Indeed. And the link is, that this content is difficult.

    People really need to stop talking about the method of gate keeping as the reason for the gate keeping. Those 2 are not the same and never will be. There will always be some kind of gatekeeping if content is difficult enough. Worst form would be guild only runs because access to those would be completely closed to public players.

    sorry to say i don't agree and you can take that how you will. Gate keeping should always be considered.
    I agree that there will always be some kind of gate keeping my argument is not that gate keeping should vanish completely just that it slows people from being able to expand their skills and knowledge by a great deal.

    You're right. But the reason, again, is not gatekeeping by itself. The reason for that lies in why people gatekeep the content. Hint: no matter how badly you might think about raiders, for the most part they aren;t doing it to limit players' access to the content. They are only doing it to increase their own chances of succes when running it. In order to do something about that gatekeeping, you first need to do something about the reason for it.
    Talking about gatekeeping and how it is a problem without doing anything to address the original reason for it accomplishes exactly nothing.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

    Its hard to train raiding if players dont know how to play their class. Raids are not the place to learn your class or rotation.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

    Its hard to train raiding if players dont know how to play their class. Raids are not the place to learn your class or rotation.

    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads. If you join random training squads because you chose to, don't play surprised it's full of random casual players. You make the choice here and then you play around your choice. Pretty easy.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

    Its hard to train raiding if players dont know how to play their class. Raids are not the place to learn your class or rotation.

    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads.

    Yes, i do expect experienced players in raid trainings. Players who understand what their role is as an dps player, know their class and their skills. Ofc they dont know the fights yet as it might be their first time, but they should know their class.

    What if support players were without any class knowledge aswell in raids? Healers who dont know how to heal, banner slaves who dont know which banners to pick, chronos who dont know how to share quickness.. why dps trainee is somehow special?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

    Its hard to train raiding if players dont know how to play their class. Raids are not the place to learn your class or rotation.

    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads.

    Yes, i do expect experienced players in raid trainings. Players who understand what their role is as an dps player, know their class and their skills. Ofc they dont know the fights yet as it might be their first time, but they should know their class.

    What if support players were without any class knowledge aswell in raids? Healers who dont know how to heal, banner slaves who dont know which banners to pick, chronos who dont know how to share quickness.. why dps trainee is somehow special?

    From what I've seen players that don't know about meta (in this case raiding meta) usually don't play support builds in the first place. People that don't know what "banner slave" is supposed to do won't join raiding squad claiming they are bs. You're tryring to stretch your argument pretty thin here, but it still goes right back to:
    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads. If you join random training squads because you chose to, don't play surprised it's full of random casual players. You make the choice here and then you play around your choice. Pretty easy.
    You want a solid training run? Join the appropriate guild and train with them, you won't have clueless people that don't know what meta is. You have no power over casual player, but you can decide what squad you join. And agian, you choose to join casuals and then complain that they're casuals. It's on you.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

    Its hard to train raiding if players dont know how to play their class. Raids are not the place to learn your class or rotation.

    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads.

    Yes, i do expect experienced players in raid trainings. Players who understand what their role is as an dps player, know their class and their skills. Ofc they dont know the fights yet as it might be their first time, but they should know their class.

    What if support players were without any class knowledge aswell in raids? Healers who dont know how to heal, banner slaves who dont know which banners to pick, chronos who dont know how to share quickness.. why dps trainee is somehow special?

    From what I've seen players that don't know about meta (in this case raiding meta) usually don't play support builds in the first place. People that don't know what "banner slave" is supposed to do won't join raiding squad claiming they are bs. You're tryring to stretch your argument pretty thin here, but it still goes right back to:
    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads. If you join random training squads because you chose to, don't play surprised it's full of random casual players. You make the choice here and then you play around your choice. Pretty easy.
    You want a solid training run? Join the appropriate guild and train with them, you won't have clueless people that don't know what meta is. You have no power over casual player, but you can decide what squad you join. And agian, you choose to join casuals and then complain that they're casuals. It's on you.

    So only dps players are allowed to be scrubs and supports needs to carry them in trainings? Alright then, that explains thing or two about overall skill lvl in raiding.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Whats the point for those players even take part in raid trainings if they aren't going to take any effort to clear said raid encounters? Players like that are the reason why LFG is mostly filled with high KP groups.

    Checking out new (for them) type of content? Seeing if they like it before they sink time into crafting items and learning rotations? And that's considering they even know about their existance btw, because until now they could easly roll through open world/world bosses/dungeons/fractals/wvw with whatever they wanted while pressing any skill off cd they could see (or just "1" :D ) and be completely fine. You actually should consider that people can be new to the content and literally whole meta surrounding it.
    I'm also fairly sure players like that are not the sole or even main reason for people demanding KPs. And we're talking about training runs here, right?

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Breaking news -if you join training squads, you'll encounter players that are new/bad at raiding. Who would have expected, complaining about it on the boards will 100% change anything about that. :D
    Also it's almost certain that people new to this kind of content won't spend hours practicing their 'rotatos' before ever enteing raids in the first place. Not to mention that hitting a golem isn't an actual boss encounter. I'm not sure how you're surprised by any of that.

    Why? Isn't it normal to learn your class and skill rotation even if you dont raid? Like atleast if you do fractals it is normal.

    You're assuming every player enjoys the same type of content and depth of the game. If someone stays in open world, wvw or low fractals, there's pretty much no reason for them to spam their raid rotation, let alone spend time practicing it on a golem. For me the question is why would you join casual groups and then complain that they're casual?

    Is it casual these days to not use right gear or know ur rotation at raids?

    Is it not? Not sure what your point is, but yeah, that sounds pretty casual. It really doesn't matter if you, me or anyone else look up the meta builds/rotations or not, it doesn't change the fact that not everyone does that and if you join casual/training runs, you shouldn't really be surprised when you meet players like that.

    Well be as casual as you like just dont complain if other groups dont want to be as casual as you and you dont find any group to join.
    Start your own.

    I'll go ahead and assume it's the "generic you" and not a literal one :D

    Ok, good -so reread the first post and see who's complaining.
    I also don't think any reasonable person would have a huge problem with getting kicked as long as you state the reason. Which btw could also put said casual/newb/call-him-how-you-want on the right track of impovement. But complaining about people that join training raids being new or bad? Oof. If you don't want to deal with that, don't join random training raids.

    Its hard to train raiding if players dont know how to play their class. Raids are not the place to learn your class or rotation.

    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads.

    Yes, i do expect experienced players in raid trainings. Players who understand what their role is as an dps player, know their class and their skills. Ofc they dont know the fights yet as it might be their first time, but they should know their class.

    What if support players were without any class knowledge aswell in raids? Healers who dont know how to heal, banner slaves who dont know which banners to pick, chronos who dont know how to share quickness.. why dps trainee is somehow special?

    From what I've seen players that don't know about meta (in this case raiding meta) usually don't play support builds in the first place. People that don't know what "banner slave" is supposed to do won't join raiding squad claiming they are bs. You're tryring to stretch your argument pretty thin here, but it still goes right back to:
    If you expect experienced players, stop joining random training squads. If you join random training squads because you chose to, don't play surprised it's full of random casual players. You make the choice here and then you play around your choice. Pretty easy.
    You want a solid training run? Join the appropriate guild and train with them, you won't have clueless people that don't know what meta is. You have no power over casual player, but you can decide what squad you join. And agian, you choose to join casuals and then complain that they're casuals. It's on you.

    So only dps players are allowed to be scrubs and supports needs to carry them in trainings? Alright then, that explains thing or two about overall skill lvl in raiding.

    I don't know where exactly I wrote anything like that, but maybe reread with understanding.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Yes, i do expect experienced players in raid trainings. Players who understand what their role is as an dps player, know their class and their skills. Ofc they dont know the fights yet as it might be their first time, but they should know their class.

    Then it is possible you have too high expectations of training groups.

    What if support players were without any class knowledge aswell in raids? Healers who dont know how to heal, banner slaves who dont know which banners to pick, chronos who dont know how to share quickness.. why dps trainee is somehow special?

    That happens too, you know. Especially in training groups that do not have too many (or any) veteran raiders to help them out. Yes, it makes training much harder than it might have been otherwise. No, it's not very surprising or unexpected.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So only dps players are allowed to be scrubs and supports needs to carry them in trainings? Alright then, that explains thing or two about overall skill lvl in raiding.

    You're saying that you haven't seen 30% upkeep chronos (not current ones: the old chaos build from before nerfs), or ~<10might upkeep druids that can't heal? And them being not even in training, but in normal pug clears? Because i sure have seen those.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    The first time i encountered a boss i rarely did more than auto attack, depending on how easy it is to pick up. Xera has a lot of visual clutter, for example, and that was definitely a case of not doing rotation until the second pull. Sabetha on the other hand isn't overly hard to understand and until the flame wall i was ...not the most efficient at rotation for sure, but definitely getting most of it at least on my first ever pull.

    Boss mechanics absolutely do get in the way of dps, this applies doubly so for any classes with 1. animation lock, 2. skills you must stand in place to use, 3. skills that teleport you (mirage), 4. builds that have reflects tied to weapon skills, 5. skills that move your character when using them. Which is a fairly large amount of builds. All of these things are risky to use in unfamiliar fights, and make it easy to accidentally move/remain in danger (or fail to avoid in the case of animation lock). Some fights are also terrible for cetain builds due to any of these reasons- like DD and power slb on cairn, which can't use the things which provide a huge portion of their dps due to reflects, mirages in particular have a tendenacy to axe 3 into death and may avoid pressing axe 2 or 3 in new encounters until more comfortable (and yes theres jaunt out of danger but so few are able to pull that off even on bosses theyre exp on).

    That said, the one time i personally hosted a training and let someone in who i didn't check out their build before hand (a lot of newbie raiders), i out dpsed them as a full giver's chrono when i wasn't even doing the dps part of rotation. That's just a case of plain not having a build. And it's fairly easy to get the minimum required dps for the sheer majority of encounters just by face rolling ones keybaord with the appropriate gear- i personally don't care if someone is doing 10k dps as long as it isn't one of the very few encounters where, if 6 people did 10k dps it'd enrage. Which is like, largos.... xera is a small touch above that number, i think. I haven't calculated it for every boss. 20k on gorseval is nice, but i wouldn't expect that until players have some experience on gorseval- he isn't a dps golem due to slam and rampage. Also mind that recovering from a rotation interruption is a skill only developed while raiding, and how much you're gonna see that skill depends on whether people are new to raids entirley or just new to a given encounter.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You should be able to push out quite a chunk of the DPS of an experienced player if you actually practised the rotation beforehand and of course acquired the right build. It should be even better if you bothered to read guides and watched certain videos to slightly prepare you for the fight. I mean, nobody is asking for you to equal a great damage dealer on your first try but half of their damage or slightly less is not too much to ask for if you run the same build and came prepared.

    But then this is not a perfect world. Not surprised to hear about DPS players being out performed by their tanks in Minstrel gear. Have had my own experiences while running training raids which made me feel that my pet was more useful than some players.
    Many do not come prepared no matter how many times you asked everyone to take the steps mentioned above or how often they actually promised they would do so. Some of them do not bother with any of this after their first run when they were clearly shown how much of a difference the right gear and build would make. It becomes a bit hard to justify keeping them around once their fellow "trainees" improved to the degree where they are able to tackle harder bosses but find themselves being held back by that one person.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    So let me ask you this
    If kp is needed with access but you are not telling me that i should not be accosiating with that very thing but thats the very thing its used for.
    You also say its a poor method of measuring exp.
    But how can you measure a persons exp if they do not have access to even join that content.

    Obviously, someone that has never accessed the content, has zero (or near zero) experience with that content.

    If person has 30kp but group wants 70kp they have accessed the content and will be turned down without knowing what their skill level is i should have been more clear so it was not to be assumed that person trying to join group would have 0kp. In alot of cases some raid bosses are easy enough where a person can pick up on mehcanics on the first or 2nd run through. Depends on the role they are playing. In the case of a dps role which is generally the easiest role to take i think that immidately turning some one down just because of a lower or lesser kp value than requested makes the whole system a bit stupid. Considering ive had people with 200+ kp stepping in oils on demios. >_>

    Even if what you say is true then the result is the same people who cant pug or easily have access to trainings will not grow very fast at all. Yet people come here asking why others are bad. Well there is a link somewhere.

    Indeed. And the link is, that this content is difficult.

    People really need to stop talking about the method of gate keeping as the reason for the gate keeping. Those 2 are not the same and never will be. There will always be some kind of gatekeeping if content is difficult enough. Worst form would be guild only runs because access to those would be completely closed to public players.

    sorry to say i don't agree and you can take that how you will. Gate keeping should always be considered.
    I agree that there will always be some kind of gate keeping my argument is not that gate keeping should vanish completely just that it slows people from being able to expand their skills and knowledge by a great deal.

    You're right. But the reason, again, is not gatekeeping by itself. The reason for that lies in why people gatekeep the content. Hint: no matter how badly you might think about raiders, for the most part they aren;t doing it to limit players' access to the content. They are only doing it to increase their own chances of succes when running it. In order to do something about that gatekeeping, you first need to do something about the reason for it.

    This is understandable and this is not what i have the problem with. Although this process in itself to some one looking to get into end game is sort of the problem as i said new players wont be obviously pointed in the right directions in alot of cases (i was not) the only reason i got involved with raids after so long was because a friend asked me if i wanted to try them out.

    Talking about gatekeeping and how it is a problem without doing anything to address the original reason for it accomplishes exactly nothing.

    Well my issue was not specifically gatekeeping its how the gatekeeping slows and prevents the learning progress of newer players. If players are not given enough time to learn and experiment be it with trainings or normal group runs you can expect them to maximize the potential of their class in a raid boss encounter.
    Should i bring extra pulls?
    Should i bring a projectile block or reflect?
    Should i bring more CC?
    Should i change my rotation slightly in exchange for x skill that will benefit the group.

    A persons dps could change greatly if they know how to maximize their play style at the appropriate time and to bring different tools and not whats just considered to be the standard while some dps roles do not have tools that change much others do.

    Especially the case with dps role players you need to know when you should make changes on do odd ball things on the fly. Healers are expected to know what tools to bring thats why their roles are harder, tanks know what tools to bring, Dps is pretty much standard what fits into your base rotation unless some one tells you otherwise or you figure it out on your own.

    As i said as I would expect not many new players will grasp this easily or quickly with trainings alone and some people may not get to run trainings as much as people think they do. Even if you have a lot of training exp in a certain raid wing you cant not apply this experience to all other wings as different mechanics require different tools and play styles.

    In short gatekeeping is not the direct issue but it certainly is smaller part of it i like to think.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

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