Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dealing damage is not a raid mechanic

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Funny thing talking about "maxing DPS" is that very few players actually reach that max dps. On average, across all raid bosses, the lowest possible squad dps recorded on gw2raidar is 55k. What's the "max DPS"? 118k, which is more than double the lowest, so I don't get this argument about players needing to play "optimally" to get into Raids. You do not need to do "max DPS" to play Raids, they are perfectly doable with much lower numbers. The only time DPS becomes a problem is if a player using only auto-attacks does more dps than a player that supposedly uses all their skills, or a purely support build dealing more damage than a full dps build

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    If person has 30kp but group wants 70kp they have accessed the content and will be turned down without knowing what their skill level is i should have been more clear so it was not to be assumed that person trying to join group would have 0kp. In alot of cases some raid bosses are easy enough where a person can pick up on mehcanics on the first or 2nd run through. Depends on the role they are playing. In the case of a dps role which is generally the easiest role to take i think that immidately turning some one down just because of a lower or lesser kp value than requested makes the whole system a bit stupid. Considering ive had people with 200+ kp stepping in oils on demios. >_>

    Of course, but where do you set the limit. My former raid squad could easily carry 3-4 players at Cairn although we weren't a high skilled speed run group just a static with routine experience. Sometimes we took players with us for free and I'm sure we weren't the only one so other players can profit although most lfgs want to have a certain amount of KPs/LIs.
    In pugs it's harder to set a limit and with only letting people participate that have KPs you lower the probability of a failure. I mean I had enough low + high KPs runs where the squad disbanded because we couldn't get sh_t done. And all of these runs are very frustrating - for everyone tryharding - because you as an individual know that you are not responsible for the consistent failure. And since one isn't the only one it is just logical that you try to use a measurement of experience as entry barrier to ensure that no failure will occur. Seriously, I even hated it in my static to wipe more than 2 times on mediocre bosses and even worse wiping on easy bosses - wiping on Cairn, MO or Samarog is a shame! High KP groups are not for learning or training. They are built to achieve a smooth and quick run a.k.a. "Hello! Ready? Go! Bye bye!" To teach someone even if it is one single person does not belong into those groups - every minute lost is wasted time because every single member of the group usually guarantees the kill in one go.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Funny thing talking about "maxing DPS" is that very few players actually reach that max dps. On average, across all raid bosses, the lowest possible squad dps recorded on gw2raidar is 55k. What's the "max DPS"? 118k, which is more than double the lowest, so I don't get this argument about players needing to play "optimally" to get into Raids. You do not need to do "max DPS" to play Raids, they are perfectly doable with much lower numbers. The only time DPS becomes a problem is if a player using only auto-attacks does more dps than a player that supposedly uses all their skills, or a purely support build dealing more damage than a full dps build

    Some bosses are impossible to do with low dps, some you can ofc cheese even with 10 healers. For example twin largos is something that just insta kill every1 if dps is not high enough.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    And that's why you don't start with those bosses. A full wing 1 training with new players is not smart. It's rather stupid. Get Vale Guard done and then head to W4 or something related like Escort or CA. Gorseval is one of the easier bosses, yes but as you already stated you need a certain dps threshold. Therefore it makes more sense to acclimatize players to raiding first which is showing bosses where mechanics are more important. Once people get used to the overall raid feeling and the awareness for mechanics they'll have no problem to assure DPS for stricter situations.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

    Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    And that's why you don't start with those bosses. A full wing 1 training with new players is not smart. It's rather stupid. Get Vale Guard done and then head to W4 or something related like Escort or CA. Gorseval is one of the easier bosses, yes but as you already stated you need a certain dps threshold. Therefore it makes more sense to acclimatize players to raiding first which is showing bosses where mechanics are more important. Once people get used to the overall raid feeling and the awareness for mechanics they'll have no problem to assure DPS for stricter situations.

    But it would make it alot easier for those players to learn raiding if they would use like 1 hour of their time to study their own class/build/rotation before the actual raid.

    Same thing with irl hobbies aswell, if you start boxing you will first train all kind of basics like how to stand, how to move, basic of punches etc. You dont start boxing by entering in ring and fight against some1.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

    Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

    So for gorseval, if every support does 2k dps, you would need 13.5k from every dps player. Ppl already said that its wrong to expect 10k dps from a trainee ^^

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    Which prove my point, raids are badly designed and push players to look for more dps in order to reduce the impact of the encounter mechanisms. Ideally, players shouldn't be able to go throught raid content via DPS, but it end up being just what they do. Which ensnare us in a meta fully oriented toward dps, leaving close to no room for build diversity.

    "Phasing" some boss through sheer dps should be considered an exploit, because it is an exploit, by doing this you do exploit a hole making the encounter "easier" by reducing the mechanism you should have to face. I don't even understand why the raid developpement team even allowed such thing to happen. DPS should never be the deciding factor to win an encounter, never. When it does, it just mean that the design of the encounter is flawed and need to be looked at.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

    Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

    So for gorseval, if every support does 2k dps, you would need 13.5k from every dps player. Ppl already said that its wrong to expect 10k dps from a trainee ^^

    That assumes the supports do a good job at... supporting. But in any case the damage depends on the build used, different builds have different damage potentials, if I cared about dps of others (I only care about mine and try to personally improve) I'd make sure the "trainees" reach the 30% of gw2raidar damage for their respective builds (again assuming the supports are doing a good job) for Gorseval only Condi Weaver and Power Daredevil do more than 13.5k, so I think it's unreasonable to ask for that of anyone that doesn't play those builds. 10k dps is a good number for Gorseval

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    And that's why you don't start with those bosses. A full wing 1 training with new players is not smart. It's rather stupid. Get Vale Guard done and then head to W4 or something related like Escort or CA. Gorseval is one of the easier bosses, yes but as you already stated you need a certain dps threshold. Therefore it makes more sense to acclimatize players to raiding first which is showing bosses where mechanics are more important. Once people get used to the overall raid feeling and the awareness for mechanics they'll have no problem to assure DPS for stricter situations.

    But it would make it alot easier for those players to learn raiding if they would use like 1 hour of their time to study their own class/build/rotation before the actual raid.

    Same thing with irl hobbies aswell, if you start boxing you will first train all kind of basics like how to stand, how to move, basic of punches etc. You dont start boxing by entering in ring and fight against some1.

    Wrong -while learning something like boxing (or any other "1v1" or "team v team" sport), you're still looking for sparrings to participate in.
    Also just like in real life, people learn on their own pace and screaming at them that they need to 'git better' gives no positive results by itself.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    There is a difference in maxing dps and deal enough dps to kill a boss. Some bosses like twin largos or gorseval are impossible to do with bad dps. If your every dps players would deal 10k dps it would be impossible to get nikare at 50% for example.

    Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason.... In general you don't need insanely high dps to succeed in Raids and gw2raidar is nice proof of that, if "max dps" was even required to beat Raids then we wouldn't see such difference between high and low.

    Twin Largos dps numbers are 101k low and 148k high, quite a bit of variance. As for Gorseval, it's 89k low and 124k high, also nice variance. Other bosses are even more forgiving, Cairn has 104k low and 200k high and Vale Guardian is 78k low and 130k high

    So for gorseval, if every support does 2k dps, you would need 13.5k from every dps player. Ppl already said that its wrong to expect 10k dps from a trainee ^^

    That assumes the supports do a good job at... supporting. But in any case the damage depends on the build used, different builds have different damage potentials, if I cared about dps of others (I only care about mine and try to personally improve) I'd make sure the "trainees" reach the 30% of gw2raidar damage for their respective builds (again assuming the supports are doing a good job) for Gorseval only Condi Weaver and Power Daredevil do more than 13.5k, so I think it's unreasonable to ask for that of anyone that doesn't play those builds. 10k dps is a good number for Gorseval

    Dude what! Only weaver and DD can do more than that? Wut?

    Edit: Its totally normal and not tryhard at all to have 15-20k total dps and 27k-30k phase dps at gorseval.
    And again that 10k dps that i was talking earlier was a phase dps.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Dude what! Only weaver and DD can do more than that? Wut?

    https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429
    Power Daredevil does 13590 and Condi Weaver 15070, all others are under 13500. Again, talking about the lowest tier on raidar (30%) which shows the bottom players in dps. The top players (99%) obviously do way more than 13.5k on any build chosen. We are talking about the minimum, which should also be the number for trainees to aim for. They won't reach it, they are new after all, but should be close enough. If some trainee joins as Power Daredevil and only does 9k then there is a problem, because that build can do 9k just by auto-attacking. Anything close to 12k is fine by me for a Power Daredevil that has a low minimum of 13.5k.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Dude what! Only weaver and DD can do more than that? Wut?

    https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-15429
    Power Daredevil does 13590 and Condi Weaver 15070, all others are under 13500. Again, talking about the lowest tier on raidar (30%) which shows the bottom players in dps. The top players (99%) obviously do way more than 13.5k on any build chosen. We are talking about the minimum, which should also be the number for trainees to aim for. They won't reach it, they are new after all, but should be close enough. If some trainee joins as Power Daredevil and only does 9k then there is a problem, because that build can do 9k just by auto-attacking. Anything close to 12k is fine by me for a Power Daredevil that has a low minimum of 13.5k.

    Yes. I was talking about phase dps. 10k phase dps is low. If players phase dps is 10k, his total dps would be close to 4k

    That 13.5k that you mentioned would be around 20-22k phase deeps i guess which is perfectly fine from a trainee.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Yes. I was talking about phase dps. 10k phase dps is low. If players phase dps is 10k, his total dps would be close to 4k

    That 13.5k that you mentioned would be around 20-22k phase deeps i guess which is perfectly fine from a trainee.

    Such players are not ready for both - mechanics & dps and therefore it is better to learn mechanics and to avoid/follow them first on bosses where dps really doesn't matter and when they are adjusted to what it's meant to raid they should take the next hurdle which is decent dps + mechanics. To focus on dps first will lead to nothing because people will constantly kiss the earth which equals to 0 dps anyways. But I understand you, we had a guild mate in our static who - although he was friendly - complained about the dps of the others (he was way over 90% benchmark) while 1-3 people dying to Sabetha's flame wall without having to deal with the platform mechanic neither throwing to late nor being the chosen ones to jump. Dps was increasing when everyone was familiar with the encounter and very fast we skipped the 75% flame wall etc. and very soon we did her with the achievement. Same for Dhuum when W5 came out many months later.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    zerker or kick and max out your dps or kick is the same tho so I dont see a change from vanilla to now.
    People just have a easier time to messure dps now so dont kick without reason.

    Were as before if you werent a warrior dungeon or elementalist raids you would get kicked as dps.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    Which prove my point, raids are badly designed and push players to look for more dps in order to reduce the impact of the encounter mechanisms. Ideally, players shouldn't be able to go throught raid content via DPS, but it end up being just what they do. Which ensnare us in a meta fully oriented toward dps, leaving close to no room for build diversity.

    You are right. Perfect mechanics + dps should be required. Currently only mechanics + garbage dps is required which results in decent players facerolling the content since bosses just die before they do something.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Gorseval is perfectly doable without high dps you just have to do the encounter "properly", you know those walls around the arena exist for a reason....

    That reason, as far as i know, is "make players kill themselves by attempting this mechanic". Honestly, in my experience, it's much easier to teach players to increase their dps enough so they can do no updrafts, than teach them how to do updrafts properly and without messing up on 3rd updraft.
    Which, by the way, makes that one mechanic a failure of design.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    If person has 30kp but group wants 70kp they have accessed the content and will be turned down without knowing what their skill level is i should have been more clear so it was not to be assumed that person trying to join group would have 0kp. In alot of cases some raid bosses are easy enough where a person can pick up on mehcanics on the first or 2nd run through. Depends on the role they are playing. In the case of a dps role which is generally the easiest role to take i think that immidately turning some one down just because of a lower or lesser kp value than requested makes the whole system a bit stupid. Considering ive had people with 200+ kp stepping in oils on demios. >_>

    Of course, but where do you set the limit. My former raid squad could easily carry 3-4 players at Cairn although we weren't a high skilled speed run group just a static with routine experience. Sometimes we took players with us for free and I'm sure we weren't the only one so other players can profit although most lfgs want to have a certain amount of KPs/LIs.
    In pugs it's harder to set a limit and with only letting people participate that have KPs you lower the probability of a failure. I mean I had enough low + high KPs runs where the squad disbanded because we couldn't get sh_t done. And all of these runs are very frustrating - for everyone tryharding - because you as an individual know that you are not responsible for the consistent failure. And since one isn't the only one it is just logical that you try to use a measurement of experience as entry barrier to ensure that no failure will occur. Seriously, I even hated it in my static to wipe more than 2 times on mediocre bosses and even worse wiping on easy bosses - wiping on Cairn, MO or Samarog is a shame! High KP groups are not for learning or training. They are built to achieve a smooth and quick run a.k.a. "Hello! Ready? Go! Bye bye!" To teach someone even if it is one single person does not belong into those groups - every minute lost is wasted time because every single member of the group usually guarantees the kill in one go.

    Yes thought based on my experience or maybe i just look at all the wrong times i often see more high kp requirement groups than i see normal pug runs or training runs like alot more.

    Like i said dont think its the entire problem its just something that has happened as a result of people striving to achieve that success its kind of a loop thing that circles back around.

    At this point i only do runs with a group of friends not because i dont know the content just because i know at least ill be able to play the content as im some one who does not have high kp on some of these bosses yet despite knowing how the mechanics work on them having cleared them multiple times. We are not the best group and some of the people in the group are very much still at the training level but in any case its just like "oh well" either you

    • Know people who will get you in
    • Hope you can find trainings for the things you want to do or clear around the times you can play
    • Or just dont play the content

    This is my end game experience of gw2 and i was it was a bit more open just within the game itself but that cant be helped.
    Like ive said there have also been instances where people show up with 200kp legendary armor etc etc and still make mistakes as if they have never played the content before.

    • Why are you getting knocked off demios's lower play form
    • Why are you stepping in oil
    • Did you just stand on spikes at MO????LOL

    Im pretty casual so it takes a while for me to get frustrated usually the first several times things like this happen its pretty funny to me at least.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Basically this.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.

    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you dont learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    ...so I guess it's good I asked if you understand what I'm writing, because apparently you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.
    https://i.imgur.com/DwUtS5L.jpg

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.
    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

    If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change🤷‍♀️

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

    If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change🤷‍♀️

    Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.
    Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.
    I guess at this point that's just mandatory in this thead :p

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

    If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change🤷‍♀️

    Again, you're trying to make up some ridiculous strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.
    Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.
    I guess at this point that's just mandatory in this thead :p

    Meh, ppl should git gud before they waste other players time in raid trainings ^^

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

    If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change🤷‍♀️

    Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.
    Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.
    I guess at this point that's just mandatory in this thead :p

    No but the opposite happens the one that got kicked come to the forums complaining that raiders are toxic kittens so raids should be easier so there is less toxic kittens.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

    If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change🤷‍♀️

    Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.
    Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.
    I guess at this point that's just mandatory in this thead :p

    No but the opposite happens the one that got kicked come to the forums complaining that raiders are toxic kittens so raids should be easier so there is less toxic kittens.

    ok, but this is relevant in this thread (or even just to my post) how exactly? :D

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?

    They should definitely expect players that would need to be trained. Not necessarily only about boss mechanics.
    If it's some kind of advanced training and some basics are required, it is definitely better to mention it in lfg.

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    I helped in some training runs and most people spend 5h+ wiping when the issue after initial wipes wasnt really mechanics but deeps. It would be more time efficient to spend 1h on the golem than to wipe over and over on bosses like gorseval for most of the trainees.

    Ty! It really makes me feel better when i see that atleast one player agrees with my point and uderstands that there is a difference between perfect, ok and bad dps.

    Sadly my question about why you keep joining pug training groups just so you can complain about them later remains unanswered.

    To fill harder roles from trainings so players can actually start training said boss, roles like deimos handkiter etc.

    Oh, so it's you being helpful to new players! Then I don't understand the complaints when you intentionally put yourself in this situation. If you can't stand potentially bad players, then just stop. You don't need it and actually they probably don't need it either.

    Yes i like to help new raiders. However i still have right to think that raid trainings should start from the golem instead if the actual raids, thats how many guilds does trainings aswell.
    Im not asking a godlike dps from new or even old raiders. However i dont want to see potential good new raiders to be held back by players who are using totally wrong gear and dont give kitten about their performance.

    If it was a designated raiding/training guild, they wouldn't need you to fill the key positions for them, because that's what the guild would provide.
    It really doesn't matter if some guilds do that or not -you're joining randoms because you choose to and you should lower your expectations literally to nearly none, because when there's no 'entry limit' (and there's none unless stated otherwise), then you have no reason to expect anything other than completely new players. Do you understand that? Because I think that's not the first time I write something like that here and it seems to me you have some troubles with accepting simple facts here. If you want meta deeps and experienced players, stop joining randoms. That's literally all there is to this thread.

    Why should i need to understand that player who is training hardest endgame content and cant play his class? That doesn't make any sense, you font learn to play in raids, instead you train the mechanics of what ever boss you are training there.

    Holy kitten, you're like a wall of bricks. That's just some backwards logic, but keep joining randoms that are potentially completely new to the content and then create angry threads on the forum that you have an issue with new/casual players being new/casual. People can and will play this game as they want to, there are KPs available for a reason, there are relevant squad titles in the lfg system to distinct between squads "requiring anything" and those that "don't care". You join the ones that "don't care" and then complain about them... not caring. Good job with that logic.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    My position is that players doing raids training should be as prepared as they can realistically be prior to doing the raid training. This includes having the proper build/gear, looked over the mechanics/guide, and a decent understanding of their role and rotation.

    ^This is how it should be.

    Nope, people can play the game as they want to, meta existing doesn't automatically make it mandatory for a every player and squad, even moreso when there is a system in place that can easly help you -at least to some degree- weed out the squads with new players. It's your choice and you're the only one to blame here, not those new/bad players.

    So if a commander will post an training raid and asking 1 chrono, 1 fb, 1 ala rene, 1 bs, 1 druid and 5 dps he should not expect the dps players to know anything about their role or gear coz its a raid training?
    So without an extra info from the commander its fine to join to that group with 2k toughness as a dps and mess the tanking mechanics?

    What do you mean "if it's ok"? Sure it is, nothing stops such player from joining in and then getting kicked, what's the problem here? Nobody should come to the forum and cry about it though, even forgetting that I've never seen anything like that happening, not to mention it's pretty hard to even imagine something like that happening, but keep comming up with -pretty stupid tbh- fully fictional situations because you need to play a victim after you join a bunch of potentially new players on your own wish. :+1:

    Also you avoided anything I wrote in my post again and I can only assume it's because you understand you're at fault in that situation. If you join a training squad and expect everything being fine, then stop prettending you're helping anyone, because you're not. Start joining squads with high KP reqs or -better yet- just find a constant raiding squad. You create your own problem and expect others to pay for it. Meanwhile, those casual/new/whatever players don't owe you anything.

    What make you think that i join in squads that dont care? Ill join a squad which goal is to train a boss, those few players who are actually motivated to learn something wont learn anything and suffer coz of those players who dont even take 15 minutes to prepare them self for the high end pve content.

    No kp training squads are literally the only way new players enter raiding unless they join a specific raiding/training guilds, at which point they're no longer in the roster of those 'not caring randoms'. Which part of this is hard to understand for you? I'm not saying every random taining squad is pure trash, I'm saying if those players are somewhere, they are exactly there. You have ways to pretty much eliminate (or at least minimaze) them from your squads, but you make a conscious (or apparently not so conscious?) choice to join them and then complain about their existance.

    Yes every1 can collect a group of 10 players amd go just "check out" raid boss X, its fine no matter what build or class you are using but when players actually wants to learn there should be even minor "to do checks" before joining.

    ok, but if the squad recruitment message doesn't mention any "to do checks", then it's safe for anyone to assume there are none. You pick groups with no reqs and then complain about no reqs.
    It. Is. On. You.

    It doesn't bother me personally, i have my own static for raids. Also im not showing any kind of toxic behavior or tilting ingame towards those players who are totally lost with their builds. Its just hard to actually train raiding if ur every dps player is using a wrong gear and cant deal any damage to boss.

    Based on the existance of this thead, I'd say it kind of bothers you though :p

    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly? If a squad is asking a dps player, thats the req already ^^ they are looking for a dps , not a random filler who does less damage than their support classes.

    If there is something that bothers me, its the fact that overall skill lvl in this game is very low, but thats something that i cant change🤷‍♀️

    Again, you're trying to make up some silly strictly fictional scenario for the sake of pretending you have an argument. Show me raiding players with high amount of KPs that don't have the knowledge about the existance of the meta. Even people that got carried for 50 raid encounters would actually understand that some kind of meta exists, while you can't say the same about totally new players, who -again- are free to join 'unrestricted training runs'.
    Also if you join a high KP squads and perform badly, you'll get kicked and that's all there is to it. Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad, lmao. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here, but it doesn't change the fact that you're putting yourself between potential newbs and then try to complain about them, which is ridiculous.
    I guess at this point that's just mandatory in this thead :p

    No but the opposite happens the one that got kicked come to the forums complaining that raiders are toxic kittens so raids should be easier so there is less toxic kittens.

    ok, but this is relevant in this thread (or even just to my post) how exactly? :D

    Well trying poke fun at sokeenoppa.5384 with a throw away line that

    Nobody will come crying to the forum complaining that some random tried to slack his way in my raiding squad.

    When that do infact happens in reverse is a bad way to make your point imo

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    High LI groups are also often without any other reqs than LIs or KPs. If that kind of high LI group is asking a dps is it ok for me to join with a class that i have never used before and performe badly?

    Depends. Is it a training group (unlikely with high LI requirements, but theoretically possible)? Yes? Then it is okay. If it's not a training group, though, then it should be assumed that players joining should have some basic competence level.

    Your assumption so far seems to be: "you need to train first before even thinking of joining a training group". That's a weird assumption to have. It's like expecting someone to get well before they'll come to the hospital.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Your assumption so far seems to be: "you need to train first before even thinking of joining a training group". That's a weird assumption to have. It's like expecting someone to get well before they'll come to the hospital.

    I would rather compare it to expecting people to learn how to ride a bike in uneven terrain before they tackle a tricky off-the-road course. It is not strictly a requirement and does not guarantee success but it provides a basic level to work with and thus increases their chance to succeed.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Your assumption so far seems to be: "you need to train first before even thinking of joining a training group". That's a weird assumption to have. It's like expecting someone to get well before they'll come to the hospital.

    I would rather compare it to expecting people to learn how to ride a bike in uneven terrain before they tackle a tricky off-the-road course. It is not strictly a requirement and does not guarantee success but it provides a basic level to work with and thus increases their chance to succeed.

    Oh, right. But then again, anyone can come to the biking training/workout where they'll be directed at learning it more efficiently and at the worst case they'll be told they're not good enough so "cya nerd". So I still don't completely see how your comparison makes much sense in the light of what you're trying to say (if I understood your position in this thread correctly).

    On the other hand you acknoiwledge that "It is not strictly a requirement", so I'm not sure what you're trying to say anymore. Nobody ever argued (at least from what I saw in this thread) that being a clueless newb is an optimal scenario.

  • Reverielle.3972Reverielle.3972 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    It may be different for others, but personally every well organised training raid I was ever a part of - both learning and helping others - our first stop was The Special Forces Training Area. If the raid leader/s are taking their trainees straight into an actual raid first up I believe the leadership is more than likely poor.

    Any leadership that is even mildly competent I believe knows that the initial raid training runs have one point: To make it enjoyable for their group. It's not to beat content it's not to berate others for poor dps, it's not to yell at them for not learning mechanics or not knowing their rotations perfectly beforehand; it's about group enjoyment. It's about outlining clear goals, and values that the training/session hopes to achieve and highlighting realistic expectations for the group so they don't become disillusioned with defeat. That way they'll come back next time, that way they'll WANT to improve because it was enjoyable and they'll want to take part again.

    This actually touches on a wider issue; why there are relatively few players that take part/enjoy raids in the game. The answer to that is not the way the content is developed, or the mechanics commonly used, or the dps checks, or the equipment or time requirements, or something else put in place by development. It's due to other players: Offensive or impolite, abrupt, bad-mannered, selfish or impatient players are the only real reason why there are relatively so few that partake in raiding.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

    You could down yourself to retaliation, or get important casts interrupted by the knockdown, or get egged, or get the debuff and not know how to get rid of it.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    Lets take gorseval for example, it has a minor dps check. Is there really any mechanics that could hold your damage back, other than not knowing your own class.

    You could down yourself to retaliation, or get important casts interrupted by the knockdown, or get egged, or get the debuff and not know how to get rid of it.

    Play meta class, know ur rotation and stand on the tag. Solves everything.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

    Because, if maxing out dps is necessary then it mean it is a raid mechanism. And ultimately it is a flawed path which can only lead to seeking more and more dps, making players discriminate professions which have inately less dps than other. It's a vicious circle that enforce a pure dps meta, brushing off other options.

    It's ok in the case of other traditionnal mmo that follow the old trinity standard, but ANet chose to give it's professions the ability to fullfill all roles with less opening for traditionnal support and tanks, making PvE encounters oriented toward dps a design opening holes for profession/build's discrimination. It was the main reason players complained in the vanilla game and it's still for this reason that players continue to complain.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

    Because, if maxing out dps is necessary then it mean it is a raid mechanism. And ultimately it is a flawed path which can only lead to seeking more and more dps, making players discriminate professions which have inately less dps than other. It's a vicious circle that enforce a pure dps meta, brushing off other options.

    It's ok in the case of other traditionnal mmo that follow the old trinity standard, but ANet chose to give it's professions the ability to fullfill all roles with less opening for traditionnal support and tanks, making PvE encounters oriented toward dps a design opening holes for profession/build's discrimination. It was the main reason players complained in the vanilla game and it's still for this reason that players continue to complain.

    It is not nececary to max dps. But why wouldnt you if you can?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, maxing out DPS shouldn't be the optimal way to go through a raid encounter in the first place.
    Seeing players complains about other players not maxing out their own DPS feel awkward. When the players answer is more DPS, it just prove that the encounter is badly designed.

    Am I really the only one that think PvE end game became even worse than in the vanilla game? In the vanilla game it was "zerker or kick", now it's "max out your DPS or kick"... So disappointing... And what's even more disappointing is that players open threads to justify this mentality saying that "DPS isn't a raid mechanism".

    Explain to me why maxing dps shouldnt be done. Every mmo raid ever is about maxing dps. If you can do 10 dps but you only do 5 you are doing less then you could.

    Because, if maxing out dps is necessary then it mean it is a raid mechanism. And ultimately it is a flawed path which can only lead to seeking more and more dps, making players discriminate professions which have inately less dps than other. It's a vicious circle that enforce a pure dps meta, brushing off other options.

    It's ok in the case of other traditionnal mmo that follow the old trinity standard, but ANet chose to give it's professions the ability to fullfill all roles with less opening for traditionnal support and tanks, making PvE encounters oriented toward dps a design opening holes for profession/build's discrimination. It was the main reason players complained in the vanilla game and it's still for this reason that players continue to complain.

    The main flaw here is in your point though is:
    People are not talking about performing in the top 1% bracket, or even the top 20%. It's about decent dps to complete encounters. EVERY class on nearly EVERY specialization is capable of doing sufficient and decent dps to make any raid boss easy.

    The problem is: many poor performing players are no where near the bare minimum of what their class could do.

    Which leads me again to the recurring point and continous missunderstanding on the forums:
    When experienced raiders talk about meta classes, top performance dps or optimization of meta setups, then that is something completely different than when the argument is about required or necessary dps. 95% of all GW2 players can only dream about getting near snowcrows benchmarks, even if they are active raiders and practice. Those meta and performance setups are basically a different galaxy for most players.

    When we talk about required dps or good dps for raids (or on the flip side, bad dps), then this is in general aimed at the 60-70% benchmark or absolute bottom tier dps players (which do 2-4k or so). It makes literally NO difference which class you play if you are so bad that you do 2-4k dps. In that situation the player could roll any other class and underperform because with those values, it's not a class issue, it's a player issue. So any class argument is null and void at that level. People with this performance NEED to get a basic understanding of the game first, and that's somethign which requires work. Work some are not willing to put in or do not require they have to put in.

    TL;DR:
    There is a vast difference between underperforming in an experienced raid group which demands a top tier performance (and might want meta classes) and a training group which demands bare minimum for success. Unfortunately both complaints (bad dps) get mixed up way to often.

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