Stealth is completly worthless. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Stealth is completly worthless.

Antycypator.9874Antycypator.9874 Member ✭✭✭

Stealth — thief's most important mechanic, totally broken because it does not BREAK ENEMY TARGETING.
What does it mean? Everything can continue attacking you (in range) and fully channel their skills even if you're "invisible".

Master of garbage builds and being useless.

Comments

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Stealth — thief's most important mechanic, totally broken because it does not BREAK ENEMY TARGETING.
    What does it mean? Everything can continue attacking you (in range) and fully channel their skills even if you're "invisible".

    It does break targetting. But any attacks underway will complete, and hit you. That does include channel attacks. And yeah, it sucks, its part of why you really dont use stealth in-combat very much. Its pretty much an out of combat tool exclusively.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Stealth — thief's most important mechanic, totally broken because it does not BREAK ENEMY TARGETING.
    What does it mean? Everything can continue attacking you (in range) and fully channel their skills even if you're "invisible".

    It does break targetting. But any attacks underway will complete, and hit you. That does include channel attacks.

    That's what I meant. + they hit you even if you dodge (rifle build, stealth on dodge).

    Master of garbage builds and being useless.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Ok, lets finally fix this horrible mechanic where attacks follow through stealth, I agree.

    Improvements

    • Stealth no longer works if observed by other players

    Oh my, Quantum Stealth? So what, if a theif is in a box, with a random wheel that decides whether he uses blinding powder or, idk, thieves guild, he will be both in stealth and not in stealth until observed?

  • @Antycypator.9874 said:
    Stealth — thief's most important mechanic, totally broken because it does not BREAK ENEMY TARGETING.
    What does it mean? Everything can continue attacking you (in range) and fully channel their skills even if you're "invisible".

    Channeled skills acts like a condition damage. Once the skill is applied, it will continue to deal damage for the duration, just like conditions, whether you're in stealth or not as long as you remain in range. There is no other solution to this other than to get out of range.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And yeah, it sucks, its part of why you really dont use stealth in-combat very much. Its pretty much an out of combat tool exclusively.

    ???????????????????????????????????????
    ....
    ???????!!!!!!!

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Certain skills will be interrupted by stealth. Many will not.

    But most stealth is for repositioning. Not for avoiding attacks the other player has already started.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Ok, lets finally fix this horrible mechanic where attacks follow through stealth, I agree.

    Improvements

    • Stealth no longer works if observed by other players

    Oh my, Quantum Stealth? So what, if a theif is in a box, with a random wheel that decides whether he uses blinding powder or, idk, thieves guild, he will be both in stealth and not in stealth until observed?

    Only if the char name is Shrödingcharr.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    It's fine. I only really see other thieves having trouble with it when they build for total glass with absolutely zero vitality (shoutout to those DEs I met in ranked these past couple hours who took zerker amulet and died to necro's axe#2, y'all were fantastic). But that's on them.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And yeah, it sucks, its part of why you really dont use stealth in-combat very much. Its pretty much an out of combat tool exclusively.

    ???????????????????????????????????????
    ....
    ???????!!!!!!!

    Yeeaaaah... lmao.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Ok, lets finally fix this horrible mechanic where attacks follow through stealth, I agree.

    Improvements

    • Stealth no longer works if observed by other players

    Like Invisible Boy from Mystery Men?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • pureskullz.7536pureskullz.7536 Member ✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    Honestly, I keep seeing this trend of players saying stealth is too powerful or far too weak for a mechanic. It takes some brains to use but yes it's a very dominate mechanic and one that can be countered. Either be prepared and learn to fight against it or learn to utilize it.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Ok, lets finally fix this horrible mechanic where attacks follow through stealth, I agree.

    Improvements

    • Stealth no longer works if observed by other players

    Like Invisible Boy from Mystery Men?

    "Learn to hide your strikes from your opponent and you'll more easily strike his hide." - The Sphinx.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Ok, lets finally fix this horrible mechanic where attacks follow through stealth, I agree.

    Improvements

    • Stealth no longer works if observed by other players

    Oh my, Quantum Stealth? So what, if a theif is in a box, with a random wheel that decides whether he uses blinding powder or, idk, thieves guild, he will be both in stealth and not in stealth until observed?

    Only if the char name is Shrödingcharr.

    I am reminded many years ago a client hauling in this old CRT screen and claiming there an issue with it. He indicated lines would appear on the screen randomly and the image would distort. We had in our shop for days and never had an issue with it. When asked if he could better describe when and how this occurred he said "Oh it never happens when you are looking at it".

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wish Thief had a real stealth mechanic.
    An F3 that put you in stealth. Make you invisible to any foe that is not close enough. Break if you attack or get attacked (even accidentally).
    Facing you : 1200 detection range
    On the side : 900 detection range
    From the back : 300 detection range

  • The Stealth is broken > @Antycypator.9874 said:

    Stealth — thief's most important mechanic, totally broken because it does not BREAK ENEMY TARGETING.
    What does it mean? Everything can continue attacking you (in range) and fully channel their skills even if you're "invisible".

    Stealth Mechanic, is broken because if you target a ranger and he stealth with his stealth it breaks target and you do not hit him, But like Antycypator stated is true. You should not be hit after going stealth. If a ranger is using rapid fire on a target that is a straight line of fire it should not follow the target to right or left, straight yes. At this time when you go stealth the ranger have a homing arrow the follows you which at the same also tell every other play on the field where to find you it is BROKEN.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nice necro.

    On a more serious note, I actually don't mind the tracking in stealth. With the way the skill queue works it makes it easier to land a rifle burst on stuff like holo and ranger as they do their Zoidburg impression, and I'll take being more vulnerable to channel skills myself over passively buffing other classes which arguably shouldn't have had stealth access to begin with.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • NorthernRedStar.3054NorthernRedStar.3054 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    With some skills, such as Rush (warrior GS 5) it can indeed feel very silly.

    It's warranted on Pew Pew and other projectile-based channels, though, because stealth could very easily break the game otherwise. Besides, it does raise the skill cap of timing and preparing, does it not? I thought we liked that?

    Also, I disagree on the argument of stealth being thief's most important mechanic. Game knowledge > creativity/thinking ahead > micro mechanics > the rest.

  • People don't like stealth cause you can die from it if you are caught out in the open but this is 1 target at a time even a really good thief gets his but hand to him every once in a while, but when you dodge and stealth you should be clear to get away that was the mechanic and reason behind stealth and they have broken that mechanic. Now if you stealth and right at the same they you dodge they throw a spell or shot at you it will follow the whole way as if you didn't even dodge. As it stands now i am in a fight with a ranger and he shoots rapid fire and i dodge it does matter that i dodge and went stealth the raid fire will kill me and will appear downed, not because i was poisoned or had conditions on me but because I can not dodge the rapid fire.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This really is beginning to feel like the necromancer forums.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • GWMO.4785GWMO.4785 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

  • @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

  • @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

  • @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Kneel should be an evade that puts you into kneel/out of kneel.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Kneel should be an evade that puts you into kneel/out of kneel.

    I uh. Like your enthusiasm here, but that would be ridiculously overpowered without extensive rebalancing of how kneel works xD

  • @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Kneel should be an evade that puts you into kneel/out of kneel.

    I uh. Like your enthusiasm here, but that would be ridiculously overpowered without extensive rebalancing of how kneel works xD

    Yeah I know. In a kind world things like Kneel would be an evade to make the transition seamless. I hate clunky mechanics. I can't stand Kill Shot and Flurry for the same reason.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

    In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

  • GWMO.4785GWMO.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    @jgeezz.7832 said:
    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Exactly! again rapid fire is a channeling skill (among many others). You can use your dodge to go into stealth. But remember you'll only avoid damage during that evade frame. The time of a ranger casting rapid fire is longer then your dodge moment. Which again is why you will continue getting damage after your dodge from that attack despite being in stealth. So essentially you want to double dodge to avoid this particular attack, or first bait/interrupt/reflect it BEFORE going into stealth.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

    In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

    Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

    In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

    Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

    4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop without quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

    In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

    Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

    4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop without quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

    I mean if youre not using Rifle there isnt much point to using DE alltogether. And for Rifle, even with quickness, its much too easy to stop. M7 is better because it lets you sustain your damage for longer while still having burst potential.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

    In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

    Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

    4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop without quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

    I mean if youre not using Rifle there isnt much point to using DE alltogether. And for Rifle, even with quickness, its much too easy to stop. M7 is better because it lets you sustain your damage for longer while still having burst potential.

    You vastly underestimate non-rifle burst. Infiltrator's Strike -> PW is vastly more reliable and to some extent more damage than spamming rifle#2. It's easy to hit max malice with quickness and still have enough left over for a quick weapon swap into a quickness boosted DJ. M7 doesn't help any issue you mentioned, either - it just serves to help where thief is bad, but you should be resetting during those moments anyway.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 12, 2020

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    I'd be happy just to have the jump key or a movement key take you out of Kneel instantly. I can't say how many times I get burst with a LOT of visual clutter when kneeling... I can't even see my Thief many times, so I can't even instantly tell if I got stunned and knocked out of Kneel. But I'm so used to tapping the Kneel key to exit, it's a crapshoot whether or not I'm taking myself out of Kneel or putting myself back into Kneel after I get burst.

    P.S. Couldn't Standing and Kneeling be F3 and F4 functions? That way, there would never be confusion about what you're trying to do.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    I'd be happy just to have the jump key or a movement key take you out of Kneel instantly. I can't say how many times I get burst with a LOT of visual clutter when kneeling... I can't even see my Thief many times, so I can't even instantly tell if I got stunned and knocked out of Kneel. But I'm so used to tapping the Kneel key to exit, it's a crapshoot whether or not I'm taking myself out of Kneel or putting myself back into Kneel after I get burst.

    P.S. Couldn't Standing and Kneeling be F3 and F4 functions? That way, there would never be confusion about what you're trying to do.

    They def could. It's kinda weird how anet has been about breaking class-design norms from the start (what with the health pools and armor types), and has designed super unique classes, but for unfathomable reasons is super duper unimaginative about a ton of other stuff. Like they manage to make things very different/unique but at the same time refuse to go outside narrowly defined, ridiculous boundaries at the same time.

  • Stealth is the single most broken mechanic in guild wars two.
    20k from stealth? Yep.
    Perma stealth? Yep
    Ability to exit combat whenever you want, yep
    Ability to camp invis near an Emmy in combat heal up and wait for initiative whilst enemy is still stuck in combat with long cooldowns, yep.
    Get lost and learn to play.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    @GWMO.4785 said:

    @jgeezz.7832 said:

    Some additional info: rapid fire (and many other skills) is a channeling skill. so If your foe casts this right BEFORE you go into stealth, he/she will continue hitting you during the period of the of the skill usage. Which is why you need to dodge despite going into stealth. (Although one will argue that it's an very telegraphic skill which is very easy to avoid. And in most cases you would bait it before engaging in the first place)

    Ok on my deadeye build i go stealth when i dodge, so when you say a channeling skill so if you are saying that i need to dodge to avoid damage when you are countering a channeling skill, this is what i am doing and the damage is following me when i stealth.

    Channeled skills used before you stealth will complete their cast on you, this includes Rapid Fire, Volley, Kill Shot, Bull's Charge, Rush, and any other skills that channel and track on the target. Stealthing after such a skill is cast is a waste of stealth, dodge first then stealth. For DE you're getting the stealth as you dodge, so it is what it is, you'd be better served with using Sniper's Cover or Smoke Screen to block channeled projectiles than using stealth.

    I know a lot of people don't like Kneeling but most of my DE game is working off of or around Snipers Cover but that has to be consistently maintained or has to be up also before the death rays connect.

    DE's issues could be fixed if Kneel was made instant. Why it has a 1/2 sec time, I cannot fathom. It's horrendously clunky to use and pretty impossible to use reactively - you'll either be dead or dying before you can cast Cover fast enough.

    Even then you have the issue that kneeling is actively bad. It takes your best skill, Skirmishers shot, and replaces it with the significantly worse Spotters shot, which takes 50% longer to cast, but does identical damage.

    And immobs, and gives much better boons. I find Spotter's Shot to be fine - the immob is very good. Unfortunately, your ways of making use of the immob are just terrible. Three Round Burst is just really bad. Sure the immob could be alittle longer or the damage could be a little higher, but I find it's mostly the clunkiness of Kneel that makes it just plain hard to use. Worth noting that the increased projectile speed is helpful in making up for the extra cast time.

    Edit: 2RB vs 3RB. 1400ish vs 1800ish, .75 sec vs 1 sec. 2rb does 1400/.75 = 1867 damage in a second cast compared to 1800, same amount of might, lower range. It's just...bad. If the immob was 1/4 a second longer and 3RB offerd 4 might/2k ish tooltip, I think things would be a lot better.

    Eh the boons dont particularly matter, youre getting all the boons from Maleficent Seven anyway. Immob barely makes up for the inability to move, the damage difference just kills it. And no, the increased projectile speed doesnt even come close to making up for the extra cast time.

    In pve you'll be spamming three round burst anyway and that's a pve thing (maybe they could add 5 vuln per shot to spotter's tho). In pvp you'll be taking be quick or be killed, so yes, it definitely does matter and it def helps.

    Tbh you shouldnt pick Be Quick or Be Killed in PvP. It would improve your burst by a bit but hurt your sustained damage by a lot. The problem is, your burst is so easy to stop, that once you miss your DJ/It gets blocked/It hits projectile destruction, youre basically just a sitting duck. Maleficent Seven is a lot better.

    4 sec of quickness, 200 power and precision is not 'a bit'. Your burst is easy to stop without quickness because it'll be so slow - especially if you use rifle. The best use of Be Quick or Be Killed is sword-pistol, as it really makes PW extra beefy. Mercy resets compound the amount of burst you can put out. M7 forces you to deal, even more, w/all the evades etc flying around, and requires you to land the stealth attack to reset malice so you can keep your sustained damage up - not very likely to consistently happen in this meta. Doable, but very, very clunky. As the reaction speed of your opponent gets better, the viability of M7 goes down.

    I mean if youre not using Rifle there isnt much point to using DE alltogether. And for Rifle, even with quickness, its much too easy to stop. M7 is better because it lets you sustain your damage for longer while still having burst potential.

    You vastly underestimate non-rifle burst. Infiltrator's Strike -> PW is vastly more reliable and to some extent more damage than spamming rifle#2. It's easy to hit max malice with quickness and still have enough left over for a quick weapon swap into a quickness boosted DJ. M7 doesn't help any issue you mentioned, either - it just serves to help where thief is bad, but you should be resetting during those moments anyway.

    But if you want to play Pistol Whip, then Daredevil is infinitely better than DE. Thats the issue. You only have reason to go for DE if you want to play exactly Rifle. Any other weaponset is better suited with Daredevil or no elite spec at all.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pistol/Dagger is better with Deadeye.

    Ranged builds in general are good with Deadeye.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator