Save Ascalon! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Save Ascalon!

Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

You know, just have an area on the map that is old Ascalon and do events to fight off the charr and maybe get a new mount?

Comments

  • Weindrasi.3805Weindrasi.3805 Member ✭✭✭

    They could add a level like this to the Fractals--they have one where you go back in time as a Flame Legion soldier attacking a human city already.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    No, because time travel plots are very... iffy unless the setting is built with them in mind.

    While a fractal themed around An Ascalonian human point of view might be fun, time travel? Ehh...

    iffy? SOUNDS PERFECT FOR ASURANS

    we will bring the sky down yet!

  • MikeG.6389MikeG.6389 Member ✭✭✭

    Time travel is a lazy plot device because you can solve any problem with it. You have to make it plausible in the setting, too, and GW2 is not fit for it, I think. I only saw it working when the whole narrative was based around the idea of time travel (e.g. Back to the Future, The Time Machine) It would be a gimmick in this game and would only cause confusion.

  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭

    no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

    This is very true.

    Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I would say humans haven't been on the brink of extinction since core GW2, if even then. But aside from that, yes a fractal would be interesting.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

    This is very true.

    Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

    This is very true.

    Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

    I think he means "Ascalon is dead" as in the nation of Ascalon, not the region.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

    This is very true.

    Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    no Asclaon is dead, humans are on the brink of extinction (in lore) and the Asura have no motivation to rebuild a dead kingdom.

    This is very true.

    Also Ascalon is not dead, its healing, and if i may say so after what it looked like at the end of GW1 imma say its come a long way. Plus i love the colours of the region now.

    I think he means "Ascalon is dead" as in the nation of Ascalon, not the region.

    Ah, if thats the case then still true!

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Sir Arigius.6294 said:
    Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

    :thonk:

    :thonk 2: the thonkening:

    "Searing Day is inevitable."

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

    Though, who says "first there gets the rights". Charr were present for less than a generation, dwarves for an unclear amount of time and unclear amount of reign (they had a village in southeastern Ascalon, and a tomb in eastern Blood Legion Homelands, unclear how much, if any, more than that), while grawl were never civilized enough to be called a united people as far as history writes; meanwhile, humans had ruled over Ascalon for 1,190 years until a madman ruined it all.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Arigius.6294 said:
    Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

    :thonk:

    :thonk 2: the thonkening:

    "Searing Day is inevitable."

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

    Though, who says "first there gets the rights". Charr were present for less than a generation, dwarves for an unclear amount of time and unclear amount of reign (they had a village in southeastern Ascalon, and a tomb in eastern Blood Legion Homelands, unclear how much, if any, more than that), while grawl were never civilized enough to be called a united people as far as history writes; meanwhile, humans had ruled over Ascalon for 1,190 years until a madman ruined it all.

    Pretty much this. The only "right" the Charr have over Ascalon is that of conquerors, not some deep ancestral heritage.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

    Grawls... there weren't any organisation under a single banner like other more intelligent races

    pretty sure the Dwarves were in the Shiverpeaks, and the Forgotten were around Ascalon region if you go back in history to the time of Ancient races, Charr then kicked their butt out

    then humans came and kicked their butt out, which was probably the first time they lost a large territory and their mojo, hence their insistence on taking back Ascalon in GW1 and take down the humans

    they could have crossed the Shiverpeaks as the more direct route to seige Orr, taking Kryta along with it, but the dwarven strongholds were too much for them

    History is written by the victors ;)

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

    Grawls... there weren't any organisation under a single banner like other more intelligent races

    pretty sure the Dwarves were in the Shiverpeaks, and the Forgotten were around Ascalon region if you go back in history to the time of Ancient races, Charr then kicked their butt out

    then humans came and kicked their butt out, which was probably the first time they lost a large territory and their mojo, hence their insistence on taking back Ascalon in GW1 and take down the humans

    they could have crossed the Shiverpeaks as the more direct route to seige Orr, taking Kryta along with it, but the dwarven strongholds were too much for them

    History is written by the victors ;)

    Naw, Sancoth Valley and (Maybe?)Grothmars ruins point to Dwarves having setup in Ascalon at some point in time. As for the Grawl, sure they weren't organized but they were clearly sapient and still are, their focus on a animistic spiritual lifestyle doesn't strictly make them stupid. Their ability to resist the Flame Shaman castes influence well into the modern day indicates the probably could figure a more complex society out if they wanted to, but they seem fairly content with their tribal spiritualism.

    As for being written by the victors, the problem with the Ascalonian Insurrection/Ascalon War for Independence, as shown off by the fact those two different names even exist, is there isn't really a clear winner and loser. Sure the Charr broke Ascalon city and laid claim to large swaths of territory after the Searing, but it also became increasingly obvious their ability to sustain a protracted war was falting. The numerous micro and macro aggression's the Charr had made over the years, along with their consequences, resulted in their army grinding to a halt in front of Ebonhawke. They lacked the free manpower with the ghosts, the Flame, and the Brand, one could even argue that the Ascalonians had a real chance of securing a significant victory and more territory if they pushed the advantage in spite of the Dragons.

    That's not how it played out though. The Charr were, arguably, pushed into a position of having to accept unfavorable terms. The Fields of Ruin were no longer a contested warzone but now were mostly human owned from Ebonhawke to Twins River Crossing with every Charr force either preparing to head out, staying behind just long enough to clear the Ogres, or demilitarizing. It's rather clever really, the Grothmar dialogue gives the very real impression that the Charr felt like they lost, and Bangar tapped into that sensation.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

    TBH I find the "Charr are more invasive" to be an odd statement, give how humanity displaced natives from several regions, while we can only factually say "The charr came into Ascalon, and we know they fought the Forgotten at blazeridge some"

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    As for being written by the victors, the problem with the Ascalonian Insurrection/Ascalon War for Independence, as shown off by the fact those two different names even exist, is there isn't really a clear winner and loser. Sure the Charr broke Ascalon city and laid claim to large swaths of territory after the Searing, but it also became increasingly obvious their ability to sustain a protracted war was falting. The numerous micro and macro aggression's the Charr had made over the years, along with their consequences, resulted in their army grinding to a halt in front of Ebonhawke. They lacked the free manpower with the ghosts, the Flame, and the Brand, one could even argue that the Ascalonians had a real chance of securing a significant victory and more territory if they pushed the advantage in spite of the Dragons.

    As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

    I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

    That's not how it played out though. The Charr were, arguably, pushed into a position of having to accept unfavorable terms. The Fields of Ruin were no longer a contested warzone but now were mostly human owned from Ebonhawke to Twins River Crossing with every Charr force either preparing to head out, staying behind just long enough to clear the Ogres, or demilitarizing. It's rather clever really, the Grothmar dialogue gives the very real impression that the Charr felt like they lost, and Bangar tapped into that sensation.

    I think it's more of the Charr decided to cut the one warfront that was going nowhere, and with the brand became harder to maintain and supply. Iron Legion has previously been okay with seeking peace, and with the brand they had a good excuse to get Ash to agree. With Ash in agreement, they could push blood into accepting it as well.

    So they got the Claw back, got the peace talks underway, and as part of it gave humanity the Field of ruin again, keeping a force there to help control the brand and doing some joint operations against the ogres.

    Grothmar dialogue gives several viewpoints. There is even a blood legion Charr who views the war as over because of the treaty, and is openly dismissive of her companion's comments about "disappointing their ancestors" by declaring the war over. True though, is that Bangar is directly targeting unhappy elements of the various legions to get them onboard with his thinking. Though I personally believe since he's being extra sneaky about how he's moving stuff around, those views may not be the majority opinion, at least right now.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what the hell? Ascalon is already saved, from the humans, Ascalon had historically belonged to Charr, humans took the land away from them
    humans are extraterrestrial beings to world of Tyria

    Ascalon had historically belonged to the Dwarves and Grawl. The Charr are more invasive then most human empires and the fascism parading as a meritocracy over Ascalon is hardly good for it.

    TBH I find the "Charr are more invasive" to be an odd statement, give how humanity displaced natives from several regions, while we can only factually say "The charr came into Ascalon, and we know they fought the Forgotten at blazeridge some"

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    As for being written by the victors, the problem with the Ascalonian Insurrection/Ascalon War for Independence, as shown off by the fact those two different names even exist, is there isn't really a clear winner and loser. Sure the Charr broke Ascalon city and laid claim to large swaths of territory after the Searing, but it also became increasingly obvious their ability to sustain a protracted war was falting. The numerous micro and macro aggression's the Charr had made over the years, along with their consequences, resulted in their army grinding to a halt in front of Ebonhawke. They lacked the free manpower with the ghosts, the Flame, and the Brand, one could even argue that the Ascalonians had a real chance of securing a significant victory and more territory if they pushed the advantage in spite of the Dragons.

    As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

    I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

    That's not how it played out though. The Charr were, arguably, pushed into a position of having to accept unfavorable terms. The Fields of Ruin were no longer a contested warzone but now were mostly human owned from Ebonhawke to Twins River Crossing with every Charr force either preparing to head out, staying behind just long enough to clear the Ogres, or demilitarizing. It's rather clever really, the Grothmar dialogue gives the very real impression that the Charr felt like they lost, and Bangar tapped into that sensation.

    I think it's more of the Charr decided to cut the one warfront that was going nowhere, and with the brand became harder to maintain and supply. Iron Legion has previously been okay with seeking peace, and with the brand they had a good excuse to get Ash to agree. With Ash in agreement, they could push blood into accepting it as well.

    So they got the Claw back, got the peace talks underway, and as part of it gave humanity the Field of ruin again, keeping a force there to help control the brand and doing some joint operations against the ogres.

    Grothmar dialogue gives several viewpoints. There is even a blood legion Charr who views the war as over because of the treaty, and is openly dismissive of her companion's comments about "disappointing their ancestors" by declaring the war over. True though, is that Bangar is directly targeting unhappy elements of the various legions to get them onboard with his thinking. Though I personally believe since he's being extra sneaky about how he's moving stuff around, those views may not be the majority opinion, at least right now.

    I mean the Charr didn't really 'displace' natives so much as they 'killed and possibly/probably enslaved them'. Of those number we can also definitely say it wasn't just the Forgotten either, but again the Dwarves and Grawl. Like Charr society has been constructed around warfare and bloodshed for over a thousand years, where humans by mere virtue of actually communicating with the species they interact with are leagues better without a doubt. The only way they are comparable is how their expansions pushed pushed other people out of their homes, but how they went about that is radically different. By all indications, even their closest allies the Norn had extremely violent altercations with the Charr to the point where the former regarded them as little more then despoiling beasts two hundred years ago.

    When you name your heroes literally 'Vortari the Despoiler' it's not exactly hard to see where that assumption comes from.

    Generally speaking when it comes to treaties though, if your side has all the advantages and you know it you don't generally surrender land. Which is something that's even pointed out in the Fields of Ruin itself, to an extent the Legions tipped their hand to the difficulties they were enduring as a result of the Brand, Ghosts, and Flame Legion. Especially the Flame Legion, who seem to of had the lions share of the other Charr forces that were there. Not to say humans weren't desperate, the Centaur war was going on after all and humanity also had multiple fronts, they too were worried about losing Ebonhawke. But rather that the strain was far more pronounced in Charr society, and this would of likely been done sooner if there wasn't the older generation of Charr who were vocally against it.

    Agreements like this are a series of power plays. You get the power, you can call the play, and humanity got to call a lot of plays. The Charr know this, they feel like ever since the agreement they've had to roll over like they have loser branded on their stomach. The posture of their empire is weak, depending on how you interpret things it's even starting to dissolve. If you're an old kitten like Bangar who has been around for fifty years watching your friends and family fight and die for the sake of war, that's a tough pill to swallow.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    pretty sure the Dwarves were in the Shiverpeaks, and the Forgotten were around Ascalon region if you go back in history to the time of Ancient races, Charr then kicked their butt out

    In Edge of Destiny, Logan, Rytlock, and Caithe stumble across an ancient dwarven village just beneath the surface of the Blazeridge Gap area north of Ebonhawke. In GW1, we have the Catacombs of Kathandrax - Kathandrax Steelsoul was a dwarven hero who fought against charr invaders and was buried in what's now the Blood Legion Homelands.

    We don't know how strong a presence dwarves had, but they had a presence big enough to build a village and a highly complex tomb.

    Similarly, we don't know where Forgotten lived - they did confront charr, but this was after they conquered Ascalon and the lands north of it.

    they could have crossed the Shiverpeaks as the more direct route to seige Orr, taking Kryta along with it, but the dwarven strongholds were too much for them

    They did cross the Shiverpeaks to attack Kryta - they did so through norn territories to the north. They couldn't cross the Shiverpeaks to reach Orr because there's no suitable passageway from the Southern Shiverpeaks to Orr except via water; they'd need to cross through Kryta or Ascalon, so they did - they crossed Ascalon after causing the Searing.

    As far as we know, the charr never confronted the dwarves in the Shiverpeaks. They used other methods.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    TBH I find the "Charr are more invasive" to be an odd statement, give how humanity displaced natives from several regions, while we can only factually say "The charr came into Ascalon, and we know they fought the Forgotten at blazeridge some"

    While I agree on calling the charr "more invasive" is a bit of a stretch (I consider them equally invasive), the charr did displace the grawl, and did confront at least some dwarves when conquering Ascalon and the Blood Legion Homelands. We also know that had they not lost to humans, they would have continued invading into the Shiverpeaks until they met someone else they couldn't beat.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

    I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

    It was factually presented by devs that the reason for the truce was, ultimately, that the charr had too many enemies. They couldn't maintain a war on so many fronts - Foefire ghosts, humans, Flame Legion, ogres, and very recently Branded. While Sea of Sorrows did add a previous attempt to enter peace talks, this was towards Kryta and not necessarily Ebonhawke. We aren't sure how they would have handled since it never came to pass, unfortunately.

    As for humans having a chance - in all honesty, if Rianna's plan to give the Flame Legion the Claw of the Khan-Ur succeeded, it's possible. With the Dragonbrand becoming a huge buffer, I could see humans expanding out of Ebonhawke if the Flame Legion gave a stronger push than they could. With charr forces diverted by a renewed Flame and the Dragonbrand, humans would mainly have to deal with ogres. And a deal could be struck there with some kraals here and there - since the ogres were in need of land, and the humans wanted to take back their lands, an offer to give a portion of Ascalon to ogres should there be victory would garner alliance.

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I mean the Charr didn't really 'displace' natives so much as they 'killed and possibly/probably enslaved them'.

    No, they 100% displaced some grawl.

    The grawl are native to Tyria, and Ascalon in particular. The earliest mention of them is found in early charr military tributes that predate the arrival of humans in the area. In these annals, the charr are always portrayed as victors with the defeated grawl pulling the charr commanders in great chariots. The charr dominated the grawl, forcing them into the Shiverpeak and Blazeridge Mountains and beyond, where they lived at a subsistence level.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Grawl

    All grawl originate from Ascalon - that's their point of origin - and were forced into the neighboring regions by the charr's invasion a millennia ago.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    I think that was more to say that rather then push other species outward, the goal of Charr invasions was to kill and subjugate everyone on that piece of land such as the Grawl. Said Grawl likely moved, rather then die. Should of worded it in a way to say 'yes they displaced some species, but not for a lack of an attempt to kill or enslave them instead.' Where, at the very least with the Canthan Forgotten for example, humans didn't seem to attack if they weren't in a competition for resources. The Charr had a very 'You own everything the light touches' mentality, at least from how I read things.

    Humans clearly had a lot of that going on too, but it didn't seem as extreme.

  • To address the original topic: Yes that would be an excellent idea for a Fractal, since we already have a similar one with the Flame Legion attack on Ascalon.

    If the Asura, in the actual timeline, pulled something like this to undermind what would eventually lead to the Black Citadel, I don't know how it could not be seen as an act of war.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭

    it would be cool to have ascalon immediately after hte searing as a place for high and seek in halloween

  • An alternative would be a chernobyl like scenario:
    The land is deemed too inhospitable for settlement; as a result it is left as is.
    In the end, Nature takes its rights back and Ascalon becomes a "lush wasteland".
    The ghosts of ascalon somehow ends up as nature spirits (or alternative faery folks).
    They decide to hide the now mythical "lost kingdom of Ascalon" into a mist labyrinth.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Arigius.6294 said:
    Wouldn't it be cool if the Asura built a time machine and sent you and some other characters back through time to stop the Charr from burning down Ascalon?

    Technically time travel already exists in Guildwars lore.
    In Gw1 time traveling Commandos traveled back in time to stop Gwen's mother Sarah from being murdered by a time traveling Asura golem.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Annihilator

    :D

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Though, who says "first there gets the rights". Charr were present for less than a generation, dwarves for an unclear amount of time and unclear amount of reign (they had a village in southeastern Ascalon, and a tomb in eastern Blood Legion Homelands, unclear how much, if any, more than that), while grawl were never civilized enough to be called a united people as far as history writes; meanwhile, humans had ruled over Ascalon for 1,190 years until a madman ruined it all.

    This. Very much this.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    As far as I can see, the real issue was the Charr wanted to get out of an endless stalemate they were stuck in outside of Ebonhawke. I never really saw signs they were starting to lose ability to field forces there, but more of Iron Legion once again offering a peace to humanity, which was now accepted "Get me the Claw of the Khan-Ur from ascalon city, and I'll sign the cease fire, and we'll work on a treaty."

    I'd argue that Ascalonians never had a chance at a real victory or push, as the thing keeping them alive, just like in GW1, was the wall around Ebonhawke. Humanity, Ascalonian's in particular, excelled at defensive operations over offensive. And we've heard in the past that humanity made major pushes into the fields of ruin but never succeeded in more then making the fields bloody. At the time, with the centaur war going badly and Caudacus's constant sabotage of the Seraph forces would make it very hard to be able to push outward and hold land.

    It was factually presented by devs that the reason for the truce was, ultimately, that the charr had too many enemies. They couldn't maintain a war on so many fronts - Foefire ghosts, humans, Flame Legion, ogres, and very recently Branded. While Sea of Sorrows did add a previous attempt to enter peace talks, this was towards Kryta and not necessarily Ebonhawke. We aren't sure how they would have handled since it never came to pass, unfortunately.

    As for humans having a chance - in all honesty, if Rianna's plan to give the Flame Legion the Claw of the Khan-Ur succeeded, it's possible. With the Dragonbrand becoming a huge buffer, I could see humans expanding out of Ebonhawke if the Flame Legion gave a stronger push than they could. With charr forces diverted by a renewed Flame and the Dragonbrand, humans would mainly have to deal with ogres. And a deal could be struck there with some kraals here and there - since the ogres were in need of land, and the humans wanted to take back their lands, an offer to give a portion of Ascalon to ogres should there be victory would garner alliance.

    Well, too many enemies + them picking the one fight that's just a stalement involving sitting around a stationary foe who can't really push out. Not so much "The charr were losing/in a bad spot", but they had bigger enemies that wouldn't accept any treaty.

    I'll agree on the last part, but only with the addon of "And the constant sabotage/bickering of the ministry and crown stopped." If the Seraph were at full strength and able to redirect more forces to support Ebonhawke, Yeah they could possibly push outwards. I'd just be unsure how well they could hold the land taken in the inevitable counter-attack.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm doubtful to how stationary Ebonhawke was. They were, for the most part, unable to establish bases past the southern Fields of Ruin but they seemed capable of staging raids as far back as the Iron Marches, slipping saboteurs and soldiers pretty deep behind enemy lines. If the Flame Legion overwhelmed Iron Legions forces it stands to reason that the Vanguard could probably sweep through strained Charr forces and conquer a pretty significant amount of land. Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Ascalon ransacked Charr territory with bare minimum resources.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I'm doubtful to how stationary Ebonhawke was. They were, for the most part, unable to establish bases past the southern Fields of Ruin but they seemed capable of staging raids as far back as the Iron Marches, slipping saboteurs and soldiers pretty deep behind enemy lines. If the Flame Legion overwhelmed Iron Legions forces it stands to reason that the Vanguard could probably sweep through strained Charr forces and conquer a pretty significant amount of land. Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Ascalon ransacked Charr territory with bare minimum resources.

    Being able to strike isn't the same as holding ground. We saw something similar to the Ebon Vanguard, they did some damage in the far north, but weren't able to actually hold ground, instead attacking and retreating to the Tower where they could defend themselves.

    Another factor is that flame legion had (at the time) zero reason to actually help or ignore humanity, so they could easily turn and assault any human bases outside of Ebonhawke.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    I'm doubtful to how stationary Ebonhawke was. They were, for the most part, unable to establish bases past the southern Fields of Ruin but they seemed capable of staging raids as far back as the Iron Marches, slipping saboteurs and soldiers pretty deep behind enemy lines. If the Flame Legion overwhelmed Iron Legions forces it stands to reason that the Vanguard could probably sweep through strained Charr forces and conquer a pretty significant amount of land. Certainly wouldn't be the first time that Ascalon ransacked Charr territory with bare minimum resources.

    Being able to strike isn't the same as holding ground. We saw something similar to the Ebon Vanguard, they did some damage in the far north, but weren't able to actually hold ground, instead attacking and retreating to the Tower where they could defend themselves.

    Another factor is that flame legion had (at the time) zero reason to actually help or ignore humanity, so they could easily turn and assault any human bases outside of Ebonhawke.

    Anyone who has studied military tactics realizes that the ability to effectively lead hit and run inevitably leads to territory gains. The Charr legions advance stalled in large part to the Ebon Vanguards constant raiding, if allowed to continue unhampered inevitably the enemy force will break in a conventional battle where they are too disadvantaged to win. The Charr military is not that competent, especially while infighting.

    As for the Flame Legion, how would that even happen? Fireheart Rise is nowhere near Ebonhawke, the idea wasn't to have the Flame aid humanity directly, it's just letting the Flame run roughshod over Charr territory and in the process drastically weaken their military.. The Flame Legion never conducted Ops against humanity after their ousting because they'd have to cut through so much Legion land to get to humanity, so by the time Vanguard encountered the Flame the other Legions would effectively already be dead.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Please no time travel.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Anyone who has studied military tactics realizes that the ability to effectively lead hit and run inevitably leads to territory gains. The Charr legions advance stalled in large part to the Ebon Vanguards constant raiding, if allowed to continue unhampered inevitably the enemy force will break in a conventional battle where they are too disadvantaged to win. The Charr military is not that competent, especially while infighting.

    As for the Flame Legion, how would that even happen? Fireheart Rise is nowhere near Ebonhawke, the idea wasn't to have the Flame aid humanity directly, it's just letting the Flame run roughshod over Charr territory and in the process drastically weaken their military.. The Flame Legion never conducted Ops against humanity after their ousting because they'd have to cut through so much Legion land to get to humanity, so by the time Vanguard encountered the Flame the other Legions would effectively already be dead.

    And anybody who knows tactics also knows that Hit and run attacks are not meant to gain or hold ground, but inflict damage and retreat before a counter-attack can happen. Again, I think that Ebonhawke (with Seraph support, assuming no ministry sabotage and the centaur threat contained, and the flame legion being more of a pain to the other legions) could push out and take land. But could they hold it? I don't think so. Especially when they would have to start dealing with Charr counter attacks + all the threats the Charr have in Ascalon. Taking fields of ruin for example, causes them to have the brand on one side, and Ogre incursions on the other. Push too far, and you start having to deal with heavier charr presence and ghost attacks.

    For me, I'm considering a "win" by humanity/Ebonhawke to be taking, and holding land. Taking the land only to lose it in the counter-attack isn't a win.

    Well, her plan was questionable to begin with, as flame legion was already one of the strongest legions (able to hold off the other three legions at the same time). I'm unsure how she planned to "re-ignite" the civil war, as the legions constantly fought each other or were waiting for a weakness to strike at. We see in GW2 (only one year roughly after the cease fire is signed and the Claw was retrieved) that flame legion was in active, direct conflict with Iron Legion inside Ascalon borders. So she wanted to make Flame legion... more aggressive? Stronger somehow? But the Flame legion was already in open conflict or literally on the verge of it anyway.

    The other aspect is, IRL and fictional settings show us time and time again, never arm the enemy of your enemy that also kinda (or for sure) hates you. Flame Legion (at the time) was still very much anti-human. As soon as humans pushed out far enough, or they won enough of Ascalon from Iron Legion, they would turn toward Ebonhawke and humanity. And they could reactivate that one cauldron and bring it to bear against Ebonhawke's walls.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Anyone who has studied military tactics realizes that the ability to effectively lead hit and run inevitably leads to territory gains. The Charr legions advance stalled in large part to the Ebon Vanguards constant raiding, if allowed to continue unhampered inevitably the enemy force will break in a conventional battle where they are too disadvantaged to win. The Charr military is not that competent, especially while infighting.

    As for the Flame Legion, how would that even happen? Fireheart Rise is nowhere near Ebonhawke, the idea wasn't to have the Flame aid humanity directly, it's just letting the Flame run roughshod over Charr territory and in the process drastically weaken their military.. The Flame Legion never conducted Ops against humanity after their ousting because they'd have to cut through so much Legion land to get to humanity, so by the time Vanguard encountered the Flame the other Legions would effectively already be dead.

    And anybody who knows tactics also knows that Hit and run attacks are not meant to gain or hold ground, but inflict damage and retreat before a counter-attack can happen. Again, I think that Ebonhawke (with Seraph support, assuming no ministry sabotage and the centaur threat contained, and the flame legion being more of a pain to the other legions) could push out and take land. But could they hold it? I don't think so. Especially when they would have to start dealing with Charr counter attacks + all the threats the Charr have in Ascalon. Taking fields of ruin for example, causes them to have the brand on one side, and Ogre incursions on the other. Push too far, and you start having to deal with heavier charr presence and ghost attacks.

    For me, I'm considering a "win" by humanity/Ebonhawke to be taking, and holding land. Taking the land only to lose it in the counter-attack isn't a win.

    Well, her plan was questionable to begin with, as flame legion was already one of the strongest legions (able to hold off the other three legions at the same time). I'm unsure how she planned to "re-ignite" the civil war, as the legions constantly fought each other or were waiting for a weakness to strike at. We see in GW2 (only one year roughly after the cease fire is signed and the Claw was retrieved) that flame legion was in active, direct conflict with Iron Legion inside Ascalon borders. So she wanted to make Flame legion... more aggressive? Stronger somehow? But the Flame legion was already in open conflict or literally on the verge of it anyway.

    The other aspect is, IRL and fictional settings show us time and time again, never arm the enemy of your enemy that also kinda (or for sure) hates you. Flame Legion (at the time) was still very much anti-human. As soon as humans pushed out far enough, or they won enough of Ascalon from Iron Legion, they would turn toward Ebonhawke and humanity. And they could reactivate that one cauldron and bring it to bear against Ebonhawke's walls.

    This seems like a question of end goals versus short term goals, that's not really how hit and run attacks work in the most successful guerrilla groups. The idea is not to merely hit and run until the enemy starves and dies while letting them run roughshod over the rest of the territory but to gradually pull apart their resources and manpower until they can be broken in a decisive conventional battle with which they will then lose that land. Special operations are the prelude to advances, repeated breaches of security will eventually lead to an outpost becoming sacked and unusable before being swept aside by the bulk of the military force to secure that location. This is easily observable in Eye of the North, the Ebon Vanguard were yes attacking and running while they fought the Charr but they did this expressly for the purposes of territory gain by making the enemy pull back.

    Just because hit and run encourages you to think of territory as a box that can be flipped back and forth at a necessary time for a strategic advantage, does not mean the end goal isn't to inevitably control that box and all the resources it holds. Raiding supplies will only get you so far, soldiers need food and shelter, and you need more turf to set up Bivouacs and dig in tunnel networks. Further ideally the humans wouldn't need to deal with most of the Brand, Ghosts, and Flame Legion until the primary three were already starving barely functional wrecks. As soon as you push up and deprive them of resources you also make all their other fronts harder to hold as well, eventually leading to a situation where the Legions will simply bend and break under the strain of limited resources and demoralization while trying to take back territory on all sides. Sure humans would be dealing with more Ogre attacks and Brand on the other side, but by the time they reached the Iron Marches the culminative toll of a hundred micro-aggression's from multiple enemies, aggression's that they were only able to fix in part due to pact assistance, would wind up damaging the Charr more then it would Ebonhawke.

    Also you underestimate the Claw of the Khan Ur and what an apocalyptic curse it has been on Charr society for generations. In the hands of someone as violently aggressive as the Flame Legion Imperator other Charr Legions would begin flocking to the already powerful Flames ranks, the other Legions couldn't abide the Flame having that kind of symbolic power and would be forced to press them even as they grow stronger, ideally leading to a situation where Charr society collapses in on itself due to the claw for umpteenth time in the last thousand two hundred years.

    And really, by the time humanity is brushing up against Charr forces it would be already far too late for Flame to stop the advance. Most likely they wouldn't even be able to access the one cauldron in the iron marches, and even then it lacks the Searing power needed to reverse a human expansion, especially because they'll likely be as beaten and bloodied as Iron, Blood, and Ash by that point in time.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    This seems like a question of end goals versus short term goals, that's not really how hit and run attacks work in the most successful guerrilla groups. The idea is not to merely hit and run until the enemy starves and dies while letting them run roughshod over the rest of the territory but to gradually pull apart their resources and manpower until they can be broken in a decisive conventional battle with which they will then lose that land. Special operations are the prelude to advances, repeated breaches of security will eventually lead to an outpost becoming sacked and unusable before being swept aside by the bulk of the military force to secure that location. This is easily observable in Eye of the North, the Ebon Vanguard were yes attacking and running while they fought the Charr but they did this expressly for the purposes of territory gain by making the enemy pull back.

    The Ebon Vanguard in Eye of the North had zero territory gain in mind. Also, Territory gain requires garrisoning the land. The Vietnam war was filled with hit and run/guerrilla warfare, yet neither side could actually dislodge the other from secured territory.

    The Ebon Vanguard, like the Vanguard under Rurik had the goal of causing damage and slowing the advance, not "Taking land". They had no manpower to secure or garrison land against the vastly greater numbers of the Charr forces. Hell, we see basically the entire Vanguard cleanly defeated and captured in a single battle that went wrong.

    Also, Ash legion would be performing hit and run operations against the Vanguard just as much.

    Just because hit and run encourages you to think of territory as a box that can be flipped back and forth at a necessary time for a strategic advantage, does not mean the end goal isn't to inevitably control that box and all the resources it holds. Raiding supplies will only get you so far, soldiers need food and shelter, and you need more turf to set up Bivouacs and dig in tunnel networks. Further ideally the humans wouldn't need to deal with most of the Brand, Ghosts, and Flame Legion until the primary three were already starving barely functional wrecks. As soon as you push up and deprive them of resources you also make all their other fronts harder to hold as well, eventually leading to a situation where the Legions will simply bend and break under the strain of limited resources and demoralization while trying to take back territory on all sides. Sure humans would be dealing with more Ogre attacks and Brand on the other side, but by the time they reached the Iron Marches the culminative toll of a hundred micro-aggression's from multiple enemies, aggression's that they were only able to fix in part due to pact assistance, would wind up damaging the Charr more then it would Ebonhawke.

    IF all these other aggressions were pushing the Charr into such a bad place, then they wouldn't be so secure merely one year after the cease fire. It takes time to move forces (especially across the brand)

    Also, the Truce faction of the Charr? It was mostly about pulling forces from the stalemate at Ebonhawke, to fight the dragons. Not "Fight all these other battles." Imperator of the Ash legion was secretly part of this group, as was Almorra and even implied to be Smodur. The reason the Truce came about was because the brand and the dragons showing their danger to the Charr. Yes it allowed them to divert forces to fight the Flame Legion as well, but the goal was dragons. Hell, it's even mentioned in Grothmar about signing the treaty to "Fight the dragons".

    Also you underestimate the Claw of the Khan Ur and what an apocalyptic curse it has been on Charr society for generations. In the hands of someone as violently aggressive as the Flame Legion Imperator other Charr Legions would begin flocking to the already powerful Flames ranks, the other Legions couldn't abide the Flame having that kind of symbolic power and would be forced to press them even as they grow stronger, ideally leading to a situation where Charr society collapses in on itself due to the claw for umpteenth time in the last thousand two hundred years.

    It's a symbol yes, but the other legions are (mostly) tired of being lorded over by the Shamans of the Flame legion and would rather die then submit. To imply that Charr loyality to their legion is so low they'd abandon their oaths because the Flame imperator has the Claw is odd for me. Hell we know the Renegades were heavily influenced by Bangar, and pushed to attack and cause chaos.

    And really, by the time humanity is brushing up against Charr forces it would be already far too late for Flame to stop the advance. Most likely they wouldn't even be able to access the one cauldron in the iron marches, and even then it lacks the Searing power needed to reverse a human expansion, especially because they'll likely be as beaten and bloodied as Iron, Blood, and Ash by that point in time.

    Ebonhawke's manpower is far less then any single legion, and unless Kryta was instantly secured with the Centaurs totally being defeated and the ministry/white mantle stopping their sabotage, The Ebon Vanguard couldn't hope to actually hold the lands with attacks from branded, Ogres, ghosts, and Charr.

    This is assuming that the Flame Legion, while also "growing in power" would suddenly be weakened to the point of not being able to effectively wage attacks on the exposed human forces outside of Ebonhawke's protective walls. Another factor is that we know, with light vigil/pact help (their presence in Ascalon is not that big honestly) within a year or two the Flame legion imperator was dead and the majority of offensive actions got stalled. This doesn't paint the image of the Claw allowing them to become such a massive problem that humanity could easily push out and hold land.

    Also, it was a plan made by Riona Grady, who from what I've re-read/looked up, doesn't sound like a high level officer with detailed knowledge of Charr culture and legion interactions. It sounds more like a mad idea caused by somebody fantically opposed to peace with the Charr, knowing that this specific item was sought by Ash and Iron legion in exchanged for a truce.

    Ascalon was great as siege defense, not so great at open combat against the Charr. The vanguards were excellent hit and run warriors, but again, not open combat. We saw this in GW1.

    so, TL:DR

    For Riona's plan to work she had to not only kill or disable the entire team, but then escape from Ascalon city, cross long distances of Ascalon alone without being detected and killed or captured by any group (ghosts, Blood/iron/ash legion, ogres, harpies, etc) to hand the Claw to the flame legion or have them loot it off her corpse. (Also, given how Ash legion imperator was part of the truce faction, it's probably the party was being shadowed by Ash legion operatives anyway) THEN there is the hopes that it'd strengthen the Flame Legion by causing mass defections from the other three to increase the civil war to new levels. Meanwhile Ebon Vanguard push out of Ebonhawke alone (as Kryta is stuck with weakened Seraph trying to hold off the Centaurs and unable to devote any real aid to Ascalon) and push the Charr back and secure and hold lands, while also fighting off Charr counter-attacks, branded strikes and spread, Ogres, Ghosts, Harpies, and hostile wildlife.

    Then, they'd have to hope the flame legion doesn't turn south and attack them after pushing back Iron legion.

    Fact of the matter is, The plan is based on so many different events that are unlikely to happen, it's hard to believe it'd end up coming to pass.

    Especially with Kryta totally unable to provide any assistance, and the legions being evenly matched in that period It's hard to believe the Ebon Vanguard would have any real chance to push out the Charr and hold any land outside of Ebonhawke or the area directly around it. You list various things the Charr are fighting, which would be the Ebon Vanguard's problem as soon as they reached certain areas. We see Ascalon one year after the cease-fire, and it's hard to see the Vanguard easily pushing the Charr out of some areas. Given how the three legions feel about the Flame Legion shamans, I can't see many of them flocking to that banner, even with the Claw of the Khan Ur. We certainly don't see any flame legion suddenly joining the Iron Legion because Smodur has the Claw.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    This seems like a question of end goals versus short term goals, that's not really how hit and run attacks work in the most successful guerrilla groups. The idea is not to merely hit and run until the enemy starves and dies while letting them run roughshod over the rest of the territory but to gradually pull apart their resources and manpower until they can be broken in a decisive conventional battle with which they will then lose that land. Special operations are the prelude to advances, repeated breaches of security will eventually lead to an outpost becoming sacked and unusable before being swept aside by the bulk of the military force to secure that location. This is easily observable in Eye of the North, the Ebon Vanguard were yes attacking and running while they fought the Charr but they did this expressly for the purposes of territory gain by making the enemy pull back.

    The Ebon Vanguard in Eye of the North had zero territory gain in mind. Also, Territory gain requires garrisoning the land. The Vietnam war was filled with hit and run/guerrilla warfare, yet neither side could actually dislodge the other from secured territory.

    The Ebon Vanguard, like the Vanguard under Rurik had the goal of causing damage and slowing the advance, not "Taking land". They had no manpower to secure or garrison land against the vastly greater numbers of the Charr forces. Hell, we see basically the entire Vanguard cleanly defeated and captured in a single battle that went wrong.

    Also, Ash legion would be performing hit and run operations against the Vanguard just as much.

    Just because hit and run encourages you to think of territory as a box that can be flipped back and forth at a necessary time for a strategic advantage, does not mean the end goal isn't to inevitably control that box and all the resources it holds. Raiding supplies will only get you so far, soldiers need food and shelter, and you need more turf to set up Bivouacs and dig in tunnel networks. Further ideally the humans wouldn't need to deal with most of the Brand, Ghosts, and Flame Legion until the primary three were already starving barely functional wrecks. As soon as you push up and deprive them of resources you also make all their other fronts harder to hold as well, eventually leading to a situation where the Legions will simply bend and break under the strain of limited resources and demoralization while trying to take back territory on all sides. Sure humans would be dealing with more Ogre attacks and Brand on the other side, but by the time they reached the Iron Marches the culminative toll of a hundred micro-aggression's from multiple enemies, aggression's that they were only able to fix in part due to pact assistance, would wind up damaging the Charr more then it would Ebonhawke.

    IF all these other aggressions were pushing the Charr into such a bad place, then they wouldn't be so secure merely one year after the cease fire. It takes time to move forces (especially across the brand)

    Also, the Truce faction of the Charr? It was mostly about pulling forces from the stalemate at Ebonhawke, to fight the dragons. Not "Fight all these other battles." Imperator of the Ash legion was secretly part of this group, as was Almorra and even implied to be Smodur. The reason the Truce came about was because the brand and the dragons showing their danger to the Charr. Yes it allowed them to divert forces to fight the Flame Legion as well, but the goal was dragons. Hell, it's even mentioned in Grothmar about signing the treaty to "Fight the dragons".

    Also you underestimate the Claw of the Khan Ur and what an apocalyptic curse it has been on Charr society for generations. In the hands of someone as violently aggressive as the Flame Legion Imperator other Charr Legions would begin flocking to the already powerful Flames ranks, the other Legions couldn't abide the Flame having that kind of symbolic power and would be forced to press them even as they grow stronger, ideally leading to a situation where Charr society collapses in on itself due to the claw for umpteenth time in the last thousand two hundred years.

    It's a symbol yes, but the other legions are (mostly) tired of being lorded over by the Shamans of the Flame legion and would rather die then submit. To imply that Charr loyality to their legion is so low they'd abandon their oaths because the Flame imperator has the Claw is odd for me. Hell we know the Renegades were heavily influenced by Bangar, and pushed to attack and cause chaos.

    And really, by the time humanity is brushing up against Charr forces it would be already far too late for Flame to stop the advance. Most likely they wouldn't even be able to access the one cauldron in the iron marches, and even then it lacks the Searing power needed to reverse a human expansion, especially because they'll likely be as beaten and bloodied as Iron, Blood, and Ash by that point in time.

    Ebonhawke's manpower is far less then any single legion, and unless Kryta was instantly secured with the Centaurs totally being defeated and the ministry/white mantle stopping their sabotage, The Ebon Vanguard couldn't hope to actually hold the lands with attacks from branded, Ogres, ghosts, and Charr.

    This is assuming that the Flame Legion, while also "growing in power" would suddenly be weakened to the point of not being able to effectively wage attacks on the exposed human forces outside of Ebonhawke's protective walls. Another factor is that we know, with light vigil/pact help (their presence in Ascalon is not that big honestly) within a year or two the Flame legion imperator was dead and the majority of offensive actions got stalled. This doesn't paint the image of the Claw allowing them to become such a massive problem that humanity could easily push out and hold land.

    Also, it was a plan made by Riona Grady, who from what I've re-read/looked up, doesn't sound like a high level officer with detailed knowledge of Charr culture and legion interactions. It sounds more like a mad idea caused by somebody fantically opposed to peace with the Charr, knowing that this specific item was sought by Ash and Iron legion in exchanged for a truce.

    Ascalon was great as siege defense, not so great at open combat against the Charr. The vanguards were excellent hit and run warriors, but again, not open combat. We saw this in GW1.

    so, TL:DR

    For Riona's plan to work she had to not only kill or disable the entire team, but then escape from Ascalon city, cross long distances of Ascalon alone without being detected and killed or captured by any group (ghosts, Blood/iron/ash legion, ogres, harpies, etc) to hand the Claw to the flame legion or have them loot it off her corpse. (Also, given how Ash legion imperator was part of the truce faction, it's probably the party was being shadowed by Ash legion operatives anyway) THEN there is the hopes that it'd strengthen the Flame Legion by causing mass defections from the other three to increase the civil war to new levels. Meanwhile Ebon Vanguard push out of Ebonhawke alone (as Kryta is stuck with weakened Seraph trying to hold off the Centaurs and unable to devote any real aid to Ascalon) and push the Charr back and secure and hold lands, while also fighting off Charr counter-attacks, branded strikes and spread, Ogres, Ghosts, Harpies, and hostile wildlife.

    Then, they'd have to hope the flame legion doesn't turn south and attack them after pushing back Iron legion.

    Fact of the matter is, The plan is based on so many different events that are unlikely to happen, it's hard to believe it'd end up coming to pass.

    Especially with Kryta totally unable to provide any assistance, and the legions being evenly matched in that period It's hard to believe the Ebon Vanguard would have any real chance to push out the Charr and hold any land outside of Ebonhawke or the area directly around it. You list various things the Charr are fighting, which would be the Ebon Vanguard's problem as soon as they reached certain areas. We see Ascalon one year after the cease-fire, and it's hard to see the Vanguard easily pushing the Charr out of some areas. Given how the three legions feel about the Flame Legion shamans, I can't see many of them flocking to that banner, even with the Claw of the Khan Ur. We certainly don't see any flame legion suddenly joining the Iron Legion because Smodur has the Claw.

    The Ebon Vanguard absolutely had territory gain in mind, by advancing on the Charr military in the Blood Legion homelands they were causing the Charr enough trouble and giving enough breathing room at home to let the Ascalon military press an advantage, retaking territory and perhaps eventually pushing the Charr back north. Why would they see it any other way? they were in the war to win the war which would only be accomplished when the Charr military was broken in Ascalon. By forcing the Charr to surrender supplies and killing their troops in hit and run they were straining the Legions ability to occupy Ascalon itself. Given enough time perhaps, the end goal would of likely been to wipe the Charr out completely.

    I'm not sure why you think the conventional military and the guerrilla forces exist independent of one another, that wasn't even true in the Vietnam war which didn't exactly end with the South Vietnamese unanimously just deciding to be absorbed into the north. No, it ended with a massive disorganized retreat as their support collapsed and a tank being yeeted through the front door of the independence palace. What kind of strategy is always play defense while needling your enemy with no plan to advance and gain territory? unless the opposing army just THROWS everything into a death trap you designed for some mad reason, they will simply regain those resources and throw them at you harder later with a better idea of your defenses.

    While North Vietnamse Guerilla forces did not take secured territory, they did constantly undermine the enemies defenses, setup tunnel networks that ran through the south as much as the north, setup camps near to villages to siphon resources in enemy territory, and gradually work towards the collapse of their enemies. Hit and run is defense through offense that will inevitably turn into a massive offense in itself when the opponent is weak enough. After all the Vietnam War did not end with the south simply breaking its bodies on those to the North, it ended with the North staging a massive invasion with both conventional and hit and run forces that the south could not hope to repel.

    This is the apparent end goal for the Ebon Vanguard as well. They may not be able to fight the mass of the Charr army in a one on one battle, but they are pushing the Charr to the point where that will be a viable tactic. They don't say that they'll just keep attacking until the Charr leave and return to Grothmar after all, they are fixated on ensuring that by the end of this every Charr is dead, a mission that only transforms when Adelbern calls them to maintain Ebonhawke.

    As for the Charr pulling their forces to fight the Dragons, that's false. Vanguard Morrison tells you where the Charr forces are going: The soldiers in the Fields of Ruin aren't being sent to fight the Dragons, they are being picked up and moved to fight the Flame Legion. This is consistent from dialogue in the area, Elwin Fairchild points out the Charr cannot afford to keep attacking with a civil war going on and a nearby citizen wonders why they don't advance instead of negotiate for this very reason. Sure the basis of the treaty is to get everyone together to fight the Dragons, but the Charr's very reluctant agreement comes in part from knowing that while their empire is large it's beseiged by a dozen directions and threatened with collapse. When reasons for them moving out come up it's as often pointed to the Ghosts and the Flame Legion as often as the dragonsbrand, if not more so.

    Of course the reason for holding the truce together at Grothmar is the Dragons, the other threats have been defeated at this point. The Ghosts are contained, the Flame Legion has been losing since Citadel of Flame and has thrown their lot in with the other Legions. With Kralk dead the last primary threat to them internally has been dispelled, now they think they can win, just as long as they can deal with Aurene on their terms. There's a decade between Grothmar and the Fields of Ruin, a whole lot has changed since then.

    As for Riona's plan? Who knows, it's not like there aren't Separatists who haven't made it all the way up to Fireheart Rise, but more importantly then that the logical basis for victory is sound. If she throws the Claw to the Flame, however she gets it there, and the Charr massacre one another. Why would she care if the Flame turns south after the death of Iron? they would likely be so decimated in the infighting that they'd effectively be on life support, no matter who wins that fight, Ebonhawke wins. because the Flame getting to the point where they can attack Ebonhawke requires them hacking their way through every Charr between Ebonhawke and the Flame Citadel first.

  • Sorry for this little change in topic, but someone on this thread mentioned something about "Canthan Forgotten", when was that a thing and how did I miss it?

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  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Sorry for this little change in topic, but someone on this thread mentioned something about "Canthan Forgotten", when was that a thing and how did I miss it?

    It's an obscure bit of lore from one of GW1's many, many lore pieces. It's here in an Empire Divided: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

  • @Loesh.4697 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Sorry for this little change in topic, but someone on this thread mentioned something about "Canthan Forgotten", when was that a thing and how did I miss it?

    It's an obscure bit of lore from one of GW1's many, many lore pieces. It's here in an Empire Divided: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

    I see. Guess it'd just been so long since I'd read that lore document and I didn't remember that particular blurb.

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