Mesmer clone/phantasm balance — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mesmer clone/phantasm balance

Mesmers lose 3% of t heir hp for every clone or phantasm they create. That's even lore wise reasonable, since they lose a part of their essence doing this.
This would force them to think a bit longer about just spawning all clones phantasm and then go invisi. It would make up for them being practically unhittable a big part of the fight.

Comments

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    1) Source

    2) They're not practically unhittable except when using F4, and that's only for a couple seconds. So no.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    only 3%? what about 33% them we can delete mesmer after 3 clones

  • @Alatar.7364 said:
    Look, I hate Mesmer just as much as the next guy but this here is kitten.
    Mesmer can think all he wants but his gameplay simply revolves around spawning clones, it is in their weapon skills, in their traits and in their utillity skills, perhaps it is a spam but that said spam is a side-effect of a normal/proper usage of their skills. If you want adress the spam adress the skills and how they function, don't come up with this profession-nuking.

    What exactly is nuking there? You have to generate 34 clones/phantasm to die, and that's without even heling which will certainl yhappen before.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 9, 2019

    @EthanLightheart.9168 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    Look, I hate Mesmer just as much as the next guy but this here is kitten.
    Mesmer can think all he wants but his gameplay simply revolves around spawning clones, it is in their weapon skills, in their traits and in their utillity skills, perhaps it is a spam but that said spam is a side-effect of a normal/proper usage of their skills. If you want adress the spam adress the skills and how they function, don't come up with this profession-nuking.

    What exactly is nuking there? You have to generate 34 clones/phantasm to die, and that's without even heling which will certainl yhappen before.

    Ye and obviously without taking any dmg from enemy huh?
    Your "proposal" is not "34 clones to die" (lol) its 10 clones to die because you are light armor target that is taking kitten ton of dmg from enemy. Mesmer spawns clones almost every single moment of its combat time, he will lose absurd amount of HP in no time and not because of some mindless spam but because that's how the profession works in order to even function, that's why I said that if you really wanna adress that then you need to adjust/change how its skills function, not come up with this self-cripling idea that punishes you for using your absolute basic resource. That's like giving Thief a HP loss if he evades.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • @Alatar.7364 said:

    @EthanLightheart.9168 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    Look, I hate Mesmer just as much as the next guy but this here is kitten.
    Mesmer can think all he wants but his gameplay simply revolves around spawning clones, it is in their weapon skills, in their traits and in their utillity skills, perhaps it is a spam but that said spam is a side-effect of a normal/proper usage of their skills. If you want adress the spam adress the skills and how they function, don't come up with this profession-nuking.

    What exactly is nuking there? You have to generate 34 clones/phantasm to die, and that's without even heling which will certainl yhappen before.

    Ye and obviously without taking any dmg from enemy huh?
    Your "proposal" is not "34 clones to die" (lol) its 10 clones to die because you are light armor target that is taking kitten ton of dmg from enemy. Mesmer spawns clones almost every single moment of its combat time, he will lose absurd amount of HP in no time and not because of some mindless spam but because that's how the profession works in order to even function, that's why I said that if you really wanna adress that then you need to adjust/change how its skills function, not come up with this self-cripling idea that punishes you for using your absolute basic resource. That's like giving Thief a HP loss if he evades.

    Yeah right, because mesmer have almost no access to target break, blink, distortion invisibility and blocks.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EthanLightheart.9168 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @EthanLightheart.9168 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    Look, I hate Mesmer just as much as the next guy but this here is kitten.
    Mesmer can think all he wants but his gameplay simply revolves around spawning clones, it is in their weapon skills, in their traits and in their utillity skills, perhaps it is a spam but that said spam is a side-effect of a normal/proper usage of their skills. If you want adress the spam adress the skills and how they function, don't come up with this profession-nuking.

    What exactly is nuking there? You have to generate 34 clones/phantasm to die, and that's without even heling which will certainl yhappen before.

    Ye and obviously without taking any dmg from enemy huh?
    Your "proposal" is not "34 clones to die" (lol) its 10 clones to die because you are light armor target that is taking kitten ton of dmg from enemy. Mesmer spawns clones almost every single moment of its combat time, he will lose absurd amount of HP in no time and not because of some mindless spam but because that's how the profession works in order to even function, that's why I said that if you really wanna adress that then you need to adjust/change how its skills function, not come up with this self-cripling idea that punishes you for using your absolute basic resource. That's like giving Thief a HP loss if he evades.

    Yeah right, because mesmer have almost no access to target break, blink, distortion invisibility and blocks.

    I usually don't agree with anything people say about nerfing Mirage as most people have no clue how to properly balance them...including you with this suggestion which would be a useless way of killing the spec all together, and may open a bigger can of worms. Alatar however, as much as they dislike them, I can agree with as well as their examples.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Just make clones not apply conditions. Problem solved.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @warherox.7943 said:
    Just make clones not apply conditions. Problem solved.

    Then we're does the lost damage go? The mesmer. People will still die so they will still complain.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    Nice Bias.
    Every medium armor class has more on demand flat damage mitigation options (block/evade/invuln) some with quicker returns, with DD thief being the king. Why are they not losing any HP when they use their resource mechanics?

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @warherox.7943 said:
    Just make clones not apply conditions. Problem solved.

    Then we're does the lost damage go? The mesmer. People will still die so they will still complain.

    Although the bold will always be true, when it comes to mesmer (Even if it was the objectively worst class in the game, or something stupid like being completely replaced in slot for years outside of one utility for the sake of team... Oh wait.) I would have no issue if it returned to being primarily shatter based, much like how power is.
    Yes power shatter mirage could use a buff, but power shatter damage is probably the most fair burst in the game.
    -Good tells when unstealthed.
    -Stealthed longer cooldowns ans shorter durations than thief.
    -burst is more fickle than a backstab usually requiring long cooldowns to land it.
    -'Push off point'-able or punishable on whiffs.
    -less than average on point sustain.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lol, brilliant. Anet approves.

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 11, 2019

    Inb4:

    “You defend Mesmer, you must be a Mesmer main, no one should support such a class, Mesmer do not deserve to be in the game!”

    “Yes my nerf is intended to make it useless, in fact I made this thread because I hate Mesmer so much I confuse anecdotal experience with general consensus. Everyone obviously agrees with me and should pitch in to support my claim!”

    I’ve had my fair share of problems fighting them, but after trying Mesmer out for around 300 games I can at least predict some of their burst and stall out fights on owned node, long enough to make an impact on the game.

    They definitely don’t have a lot of evade uptime nor permanent Vigor. If you can force 2 dodges early (their dodge buff is visible, time attacks after) and watch out for the block on Sceptre (try not to hit it, double clone spawn + Sceptre Ambush = Torment with cover conditions, and actually is the main burst of the current meta build), they should use CDs more quickly than they’d like and you’re fine if you can force a Blink while saving some CDs.

    As a Mesmer, generally if Blink is not up, unless you’re sure you’re going to get the kill shortly, you don’t attempt to engage again and will play passive for a bit. (If the Mesmer stands off-node and just autos you, while the node is neutral/you’re very pressured on an owned node, just leave and LoS. They have no chase unless they burn mobility into a Magic Bullet stun; which you should look behind to dodge with good distance prediction. Don’t die on node - surviving is always better in terms of team-play, with very niche exceptions like a few ticks away from winning the game.)

    If you know an Infinite Horizon ambush fest is coming, know that all their stuff are projectiles, and those including the clones require line-of-sight, so if you’re low on dodges or don’t want to use defensive, try to project block/LoS, clean clones up/juke them with run-behind-wall port-ins and pressure the Mesmer.

    If the Mesmer is good and outplays you on these basic strategies, as you lay dying try to recall what they did that let them win the fight. Not “I can’t see kitten, everything kills me, Mesmer is the reason, I hate Mesmer” kind of dismissal, but “I burst right into their distort and didn’t dodge/react/position to LoS Staff/Sceptre ambush so I died, watch out next time” kind of useful critique of your play.

    Also inb4:

    “I shouldn’t have to learn to fight them, I deserve a game without them!”

    Well the beauty of humanity is being able to adapt, so if you do get your wish granted, obviously the context in which my comment is valid disappears, and you can enjoy the game without changing your playstyle. Otherwise I hope some of the stuff I say helps the current situation.

    Player of distinguishing mediocrity, carrying enemy team since 2012
    Seasons at Plat 1: 7, 17, 18
    Seasons hardstuck in Gold: 5
    "Multiclass implies you can actually play the class" - A Certain Twitch Royalty, addressing a stream title

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nerf. Clone. Condidamage.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ralkuth.1456 said:
    Inb4:

    “You defend Mesmer, you must be a Mesmer main, no one should support such a class, Mesmer do not deserve to be in the game!”

    “Yes my nerf is intended to make it useless, in fact I made this thread because I hate Mesmer so much I confuse anecdotal experience with general consensus. Everyone obviously agrees with me and should pitch in to support my claim!”

    I’ve had my fair share of problems fighting them, but after trying Mesmer out for around 300 games I can at least predict some of their burst and stall out fights on owned node, long enough to make an impact on the game.

    They definitely don’t have a lot of evade uptime nor permanent Vigor. If you can force 2 dodges early (their dodge buff is visible, time attacks after) and watch out for the block on Sceptre (try not to hit it, double clone spawn + Sceptre Ambush = Torment with cover conditions, and actually is the main burst of the current meta build), they should use CDs more quickly than they’d like and you’re fine if you can force a Blink while saving some CDs.

    As a Mesmer, generally if Blink is not up, unless you’re sure you’re going to get the kill shortly, you don’t attempt to engage again and will play passive for a bit. (If the Mesmer stands off-node and just autos you, while the node is neutral/you’re very pressured on an owned node, just leave and LoS. They have no chase unless they burn mobility into a Magic Bullet stun; which you should look behind to dodge with good distance prediction. Don’t die on node - surviving is always better in terms of team-play, with very niche exceptions like a few ticks away from winning the game.)

    If you know an Infinite Horizon ambush fest is coming, know that all their stuff are projectiles, and those including the clones require line-of-sight, so if you’re low on dodges or don’t want to use defensive, try to project block/LoS, clean clones up/juke them with run-behind-wall port-ins and pressure the Mesmer.

    If the Mesmer is good and outplays you on these basic strategies, as you lay dying try to recall what they did that let them win the fight. Not “I can’t see kitten, everything kills me, Mesmer is the reason, I hate Mesmer” kind of dismissal, but “I burst right into their distort and didn’t dodge/react/position to LoS Staff/Sceptre ambush so I died, watch out next time” kind of useful critique of your play.

    Also inb4:

    “I shouldn’t have to learn to fight them, I deserve a game without them!”

    Well the beauty of humanity is being able to adapt, so if you do get your wish granted, obviously the context in which my comment is valid disappears, and you can enjoy the game without changing your playstyle. Otherwise I hope some of the stuff I say helps the current situation.

    This is why I play non meta DPS mezzy. They never expect the unexpected.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • azza.1906azza.1906 Member

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    only 3%? what about 33% them we can delete mesmer after 3 clones

    yikes

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    Just curious, what was wrong with the illusions before it changed.
    Before illusions would stay illusions and not turn to clones.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:
    Just curious, what was wrong with the illusions before it changed.
    Before illusions would stay illusions and not turn to clones.

    It created this really bizarre PvP/PvE dynamic with mesmer.

    In PvE the most effective thing you could do was summon 3 phantasms then sit back and auto attack while chowing down on some Doritos and never shatter.
    In PvP the most effective thing you could do with phantasms was ignore their damage completely because it was generally low and treat them as shatter fodder.

    Neither situation was something the devs wanted. I made the argument before the change and after the change that phantasms should be gone entirely and mesmer simplified to clone generators and clone spenders however ANet went with the current iteration which has lead to numerous problems already with entity spam especially with chrono before it was nuked.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    In PvP the most effective thing you could do with phantasms was ignore their damage completely because it was generally low and treat them as shatter fodder.

    Considering that the phantasm rework nerfed their damage by a ton (except phantasmal berserker) and you still treat them as shatter fooder, you just have to wait a kitten of time before they change to clones now, I would say the pvp balance was a fail of epic proportions.

    The degenerate

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.