Healing, and strange stat synergy. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Healing, and strange stat synergy.

I see a problem with gear sets containing the healing stat. I'm hoping we can discuss the nature of the problem, and if there are any possible solutions, other than the obvious solution of introducing new gear types.

When making a healer, you must ask yourself a couple of questions based on what your class can do.

  • what else to I bring other than healing? (boons? Unique buffs? Damage?)
  • how am I going to do damage? (and by this I mean, does my class synergize better with power or condition damage?
  • am I expected to tank?

This creates issues when choosing gear. Only tanks healers can make use of Cleric's, or Apothecary's gear. (the significant 'healing primary, damage secondary' stats) and considering that most healers do not tank (or have very specific builds to pull it off).... This means that some large percentage of gear capable of main healing, cannot be chosen due the the presence of toughness.

Second issue. Am I going to provide boons? If so, now the gear is limited yet again, as concentration comes on very limited stat sets. Those stat sets virtually all heavily favor power damage. Meaning that, even classes where conditions offer better synergy, or more interesting weapon and utility choices, you are often better off taking harrier's gear even if you insist on using the condi moves.

So, it seems to me, that the game is lacking gear sets that allow for conditions and healing to co-exist. Even Seraph's gear squarely misses the mark with its precision primary stat. With so many classes having traits to accommodate for low precision its easy to waste stats with full Seraph. Then what do you do when your boon duration isn't high enough? Wear a few pieces of diviner? Now you're into some bizarre hybrid damage land... Which, is obviously not the right direction.

It seems that because healers are expected to have rather specific stats, we've ended up with a repeat of the Berserker Meta, as it existed at launch. The reason why we have the Harrier Meta for healers... Because it's the obviously best choice.

I guess I just wish there was a similar, condi oriented stat set.

And more options that include healing power without defensive stats.

Healing builds should be at least as diverse as dps builds, considering that healers do some dps, and there's no reason beyond current gear limits that you shouldn't be able to make a direct damage/healer/support, and a condi damage/healer/support.

Is there something I'm missing?

Comments

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    Apathy is death.

  • @borgs.6103 said:
    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    That's a great point.

    The only counter argument to I that I can think of... Is that, currently power builds have ways to get back enough stats. First, Zealot and Diviner allow mixing with Harrier to get functionally mixable hybrid stats when no such option exists for condition damage while retaining healing power and/or concentration in the same way.

    So, while conditions penetrate toughness, they are countered by vitality, and take time to be effective, and can be cleansed.

    Are you implying that strong healing power, and conditions would be overpowered? I can see that in PvP and WvW to an extent, but direct damage can't be cleansed like condis can. And if you apply less, weaker stacks, due to an edited build, then they are easier to cleanse. (easier to wait out, heal through, and blow off at peak output)

    Because I think the reduced investment in damage stats equally effects either damage type in so far as output. Especially because healing builds will have to take weapons and utilities for healing expressly, and loose access to condi bombs, while having the traits and abilities to be effective healers. (usually. If not, then they don't have sustained applications , and end up all bombs...Like the poison on heal scrapper.)

    So, in short I think the current state of balance between condition damage and power is such that I don't think opening up the gear options would result in a direct meta shift to all condi healers, because for some classes, like druid, harrier's will still be the best option for them.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:
    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    That's a great point.

    The only counter argument to I that I can think of... Is that, currently power builds have ways to get back enough stats. First, Zealot and Diviner allow mixing with Harrier to get functionally mixable hybrid stats when no such option exists for condition damage while retaining healing power and/or concentration in the same way.

    When you build-up for hybrid Damage-Heal-Boon Duration stats, you will lose something. So you'll just be gimping your Healing or Concentration for the sake of doing mediocre damage. You can go Shaman+Plaguedoctor+Seraph Combo, It's like Zealot+Diviner+Harrier but you get HP as well. Just go all in full support stats without raising if you're building for raids. Honestly I'd rather have a Vitality-Healing-Concentration combo. But that would be too OP.

    So, while conditions penetrate toughness, they are countered by vitality, and take time to be effective, and can be cleansed.

    Power also still has to go through that Vitality that is further reduced by toughness. Aside from selected mechanic phases, AI don't really cleanse conditions.

    Are you implying that strong healing power, and conditions would be overpowered? I can see that in PvP and WvW to an extent, but direct damage can't be cleansed like condis can. And if you apply less, weaker stacks, due to an edited build, then they are easier to cleanse. (easier to wait out, heal through, and blow off at peak output)

    I honestly don't get where you're going with this. Open-World solo is so trivial you don't really need to think about it too much. If you're in end-game PvE, you have other people in your group to share the burden. Also AI's don't heal and condi clear like players do.

    Because I think the reduced investment in damage stats equally effects either damage type in so far as output. Especially because healing builds will have to take weapons and utilities for healing expressly, and loose access to condi bombs, while having the traits and abilities to be effective healers. (usually. If not, then they don't have sustained applications , and end up all bombs...Like the poison on heal scrapper.)

    So, in short I think the current state of balance between condition damage and power is such that I don't think opening up the gear options would result in a direct meta shift to all condi healers, because for some classes, like druid, harrier's will still be the best option for them.

    Can't really tell what Anet would add next. Diviner's was a surprise, and so does Minstrel during HoT. Maybe they will add the Condi version of Harrier's in the future.

    Apathy is death.

  • @borgs.6103 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:
    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    That's a great point.

    The only counter argument to I that I can think of... Is that, currently power builds have ways to get back enough stats. First, Zealot and Diviner allow mixing with Harrier to get functionally mixable hybrid stats when no such option exists for condition damage while retaining healing power and/or concentration in the same way.

    When you build-up for hybrid Damage-Heal-Boon Duration stats, you will lose something. So you'll just be gimping your Healing or Concentration for the sake of doing mediocre damage. You can go Shaman+Plaguedoctor+Seraph Combo, It's like Zealot+Diviner+Harrier but you get HP as well. Just go all in full support stats without raising if you're building for raids. Honestly I'd rather have a Vitality-Healing-Concentration combo. But that would be too OP.

    Currently, the condi/ support gear sets have defensive stats, where the power sets have offensive stats. Meaning that a power based support build can tune thier gear, by swapping a few pieces. Wearing full diviner's but overcapped boon duration through a triat? Still need precision? Swap your chest to assassin, check stats, tune to taste.

    Whith the condi stat spreads, you can't tune all of your offensive stats without making some sacrifice to defense. Some sacrifice to defense you don't need.

    Also, it's possible to tune your healing down the better your static group gets, allowing you to take more damage in the slots where you have too much.

    A support build in raids needs as much healing power as your group's skill level is low. If the group is good enough to not take damage... Then... What are you there for? The gear tuning let's you start on Harrier's Alacrigade, and end on Diviner's Alacrigade all without loosing boon duration as you transition piece by piece. (not that you'd transition all the way if you're still the healer.)

    Condi gear? Offers no such tuning possibilities. And basically never gives you expertise, condition damage, healing power, and concentration. Even getting 3 of the 4 in quantities that make any sense is difficult. The only Meta Condi build uses Marshall's and Shaman's mix. (heal scourge) and even there, they make a lot of consessions, and end up with tons of vitality the build doesn't need... But ends up with anyways.... Because of the gear avaliable. (if 4 stat gear, primary Healing, Condi, secondary expertise, concentration existed, they'd probably use it. And pump out tons of might while they do ther rest of thier kit.... Flat upgrade. But it doesn't exist.)

    So, while conditions penetrate toughness, they are countered by vitality, and take time to be effective, and can be cleansed.

    Power also still has to go through that Vitality that is further reduced by toughness. Aside from selected mechanic phases, AI don't really cleanse conditions.

    True didn't think of that.

    Are you implying that strong healing power, and conditions would be overpowered? I can see that in PvP and WvW to an extent, but direct damage can't be cleansed like condis can. And if you apply less, weaker stacks, due to an edited build, then they are easier to cleanse. (easier to wait out, heal through, and blow off at peak output)

    I honestly don't get where you're going with this. Open-World solo is so trivial you don't really need to think about it too much. If you're in end-game PvE, you have other people in your group to share the burden. Also AI's don't heal and condi clear like players do.

    I brought it up, because I don't believe that conditions and healing stats together in PvE would be overpowered. But in PvP I figured it could let a person have high sustain for themselves and a group, while providing condition pressure. But that the counter play of cleansing covers it.

    Because I think the reduced investment in damage stats equally effects either damage type in so far as output. Especially because healing builds will have to take weapons and utilities for healing expressly, and loose access to condi bombs, while having the traits and abilities to be effective healers. (usually. If not, then they don't have sustained applications , and end up all bombs...Like the poison on heal scrapper.)

    So, in short I think the current state of balance between condition damage and power is such that I don't think opening up the gear options would result in a direct meta shift to all condi healers, because for some classes, like druid, harrier's will still be the best option for them.

    Can't really tell what Anet would add next. Diviner's was a surprise, and so does Minstrel during HoT. Maybe they will add the Condi version of Harrier's in the future.

  • Well, there are 5 stat combos for healing + concentration. Harrier for power, seraph/plaguedoctor's for condi, and giver/minstrel for tanking. Since healer damage is pretty trivial, using condi should work perfectly fine. Im guessing people just want to be optimal and not waste major stats on vitality or precision.

  • @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Well, there are 5 stat combos for healing + concentration. Harrier for power, seraph/plaguedoctor's for condi, and giver/minstrel for tanking. Since healer damage is pretty trivial, using condi should work perfectly fine. Im guessing people just want to be optimal and not waste major stats on vitality or precision.

    That's exactly it. If you overcap a stat, it's completely wasted. (unless you have a % conversion trait) power gear is set up such that you can edit for overcaps. Condi gear isn't.
    Also, because the condi healing gear are both 4 stat, and healing and concentration are the low stat number... Meaning that, with how boons work and the need for 100% uptime... That condi builds cannot provide enough boon duration. In power builds, this can be edited with a few pieces of diviner gear. (as it is the only stat set in the game allowing for concentration primary stat) but no such gear set exists to allow condi healers to meet the basic needs of a raid healer. (like alacrity/quickness uptime, 25 might, 100% fury, ect)

    I propose 3 new gear sets, to cover the gaps.

    Antagonizer Stats (3 stat)

    • condition damage (high stat)
    • healing power (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the condi version of Harrier, and would allow for a pure condi Healer buffer build. No precision (condi on crit traits and sigils) no expertise... I would bet builds made this way, will output very close to harrier's.

    Soothsayer Stats (4 stat)

    • concentration (high stat)
    • condition damage (high stat)
    • precision (low stat)
    • expertise (low stat)

    The pure condi version of Diviner's, allowing a primary stat gear, to patch holes in the concentration stat, while not loosing too much dps from condis. And usable on a condi build that wants to output buffing conditions. Condi quickbrand, or potentially allacrigade would probably use it right away.

    Idolater Stats (4 stat)

    • healing power (high stat)
    • expertise (high stat)
    • condition damage (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the perfect gear, not because you'd want to stat into it fully... but because its the perfect thing for tuning. You can make up losses from using Seraph (low stat healing, and concentration.) or recover the missing expertise from Antagonizer... Or even wear it in a mix with Soothsayer to cover all your bases. (albeit with low precision, which a few pieces of Seraph could make up for.)

  • If only we were able to put stats wherever we pleased...

    I would have sooo much fun with that, it's not even funny.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Well, there are 5 stat combos for healing + concentration. Harrier for power, seraph/plaguedoctor's for condi, and giver/minstrel for tanking. Since healer damage is pretty trivial, using condi should work perfectly fine. Im guessing people just want to be optimal and not waste major stats on vitality or precision.

    That's exactly it. If you overcap a stat, it's completely wasted. (unless you have a % conversion trait) power gear is set up such that you can edit for overcaps. Condi gear isn't.
    Also, because the condi healing gear are both 4 stat, and healing and concentration are the low stat number... Meaning that, with how boons work and the need for 100% uptime... That condi builds cannot provide enough boon duration. In power builds, this can be edited with a few pieces of diviner gear. (as it is the only stat set in the game allowing for concentration primary stat) but no such gear set exists to allow condi healers to meet the basic needs of a raid healer. (like alacrity/quickness uptime, 25 might, 100% fury, ect)

    I propose 3 new gear sets, to cover the gaps.

    Antagonizer Stats (3 stat)

    • condition damage (high stat)
    • healing power (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the condi version of Harrier, and would allow for a pure condi Healer buffer build. No precision (condi on crit traits and sigils) no expertise... I would bet builds made this way, will output very close to harrier's.

    Soothsayer Stats (4 stat)

    • concentration (high stat)
    • condition damage (high stat)
    • precision (low stat)
    • expertise (low stat)

    The pure condi version of Diviner's, allowing a primary stat gear, to patch holes in the concentration stat, while not loosing too much dps from condis. And usable on a condi build that wants to output buffing conditions. Condi quickbrand, or potentially allacrigade would probably use it right away.

    Idolater Stats (4 stat)

    • healing power (high stat)
    • expertise (high stat)
    • condition damage (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the perfect gear, not because you'd want to stat into it fully... but because its the perfect thing for tuning. You can make up losses from using Seraph (low stat healing, and concentration.) or recover the missing expertise from Antagonizer... Or even wear it in a mix with Soothsayer to cover all your bases. (albeit with low precision, which a few pieces of Seraph could make up for.)

    And how would you balance that power damage have to battle both toughness and vitality and conditions only vitality in pve since monsters dont clense conditions like players do?

    This is way your it will do similar damage as harrier is wrong it would do more damage thne harrier.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:
    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    That's a great point.

    The only counter argument to I that I can think of... Is that, currently power builds have ways to get back enough stats. First, Zealot and Diviner allow mixing with Harrier to get functionally mixable hybrid stats when no such option exists for condition damage while retaining healing power and/or concentration in the same way.

    When you build-up for hybrid Damage-Heal-Boon Duration stats, you will lose something. So you'll just be gimping your Healing or Concentration for the sake of doing mediocre damage. You can go Shaman+Plaguedoctor+Seraph Combo, It's like Zealot+Diviner+Harrier but you get HP as well. Just go all in full support stats without raising if you're building for raids. Honestly I'd rather have a Vitality-Healing-Concentration combo. But that would be too OP.

    Currently, the condi/ support gear sets have defensive stats, where the power sets have offensive stats. Meaning that a power based support build can tune thier gear, by swapping a few pieces. Wearing full diviner's but overcapped boon duration through a triat? Still need precision? Swap your chest to assassin, check stats, tune to taste.

    Whith the condi stat spreads, you can't tune all of your offensive stats without making some sacrifice to defense. Some sacrifice to defense you don't need.

    Also, it's possible to tune your healing down the better your static group gets, allowing you to take more damage in the slots where you have too much.

    A support build in raids needs as much healing power as your group's skill level is low. If the group is good enough to not take damage... Then... What are you there for? The gear tuning let's you start on Harrier's Alacrigade, and end on Diviner's Alacrigade all without loosing boon duration as you transition piece by piece. (not that you'd transition all the way if you're still the healer.)

    Condi gear? Offers no such tuning possibilities. And basically never gives you expertise, condition damage, healing power, and concentration. Even getting 3 of the 4 in quantities that make any sense is difficult. The only Meta Condi build uses Marshall's and Shaman's mix. (heal scourge) and even there, they make a lot of consessions, and end up with tons of vitality the build doesn't need... But ends up with anyways.... Because of the gear avaliable. (if 4 stat gear, primary Healing, Condi, secondary expertise, concentration existed, they'd probably use it. And pump out tons of might while they do ther rest of thier kit.... Flat upgrade. But it doesn't exist.)

    So, while conditions penetrate toughness, they are countered by vitality, and take time to be effective, and can be cleansed.

    Power also still has to go through that Vitality that is further reduced by toughness. Aside from selected mechanic phases, AI don't really cleanse conditions.

    True didn't think of that.

    Are you implying that strong healing power, and conditions would be overpowered? I can see that in PvP and WvW to an extent, but direct damage can't be cleansed like condis can. And if you apply less, weaker stacks, due to an edited build, then they are easier to cleanse. (easier to wait out, heal through, and blow off at peak output)

    I honestly don't get where you're going with this. Open-World solo is so trivial you don't really need to think about it too much. If you're in end-game PvE, you have other people in your group to share the burden. Also AI's don't heal and condi clear like players do.

    I brought it up, because I don't believe that conditions and healing stats together in PvE would be overpowered. But in PvP I figured it could let a person have high sustain for themselves and a group, while providing condition pressure. But that the counter play of cleansing covers it.

    Because I think the reduced investment in damage stats equally effects either damage type in so far as output. Especially because healing builds will have to take weapons and utilities for healing expressly, and loose access to condi bombs, while having the traits and abilities to be effective healers. (usually. If not, then they don't have sustained applications , and end up all bombs...Like the poison on heal scrapper.)

    So, in short I think the current state of balance between condition damage and power is such that I don't think opening up the gear options would result in a direct meta shift to all condi healers, because for some classes, like druid, harrier's will still be the best option for them.

    Can't really tell what Anet would add next. Diviner's was a surprise, and so does Minstrel during HoT. Maybe they will add the Condi version of Harrier's in the future.

    Heal scourge actually needs that vitality as vitality increase yoyr life force.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Well, there are 5 stat combos for healing + concentration. Harrier for power, seraph/plaguedoctor's for condi, and giver/minstrel for tanking. Since healer damage is pretty trivial, using condi should work perfectly fine. Im guessing people just want to be optimal and not waste major stats on vitality or precision.

    That's exactly it. If you overcap a stat, it's completely wasted. (unless you have a % conversion trait) power gear is set up such that you can edit for overcaps. Condi gear isn't.
    Also, because the condi healing gear are both 4 stat, and healing and concentration are the low stat number... Meaning that, with how boons work and the need for 100% uptime... That condi builds cannot provide enough boon duration. In power builds, this can be edited with a few pieces of diviner gear. (as it is the only stat set in the game allowing for concentration primary stat) but no such gear set exists to allow condi healers to meet the basic needs of a raid healer. (like alacrity/quickness uptime, 25 might, 100% fury, ect)

    I propose 3 new gear sets, to cover the gaps.

    Antagonizer Stats (3 stat)

    • condition damage (high stat)
    • healing power (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the condi version of Harrier, and would allow for a pure condi Healer buffer build. No precision (condi on crit traits and sigils) no expertise... I would bet builds made this way, will output very close to harrier's.

    Soothsayer Stats (4 stat)

    • concentration (high stat)
    • condition damage (high stat)
    • precision (low stat)
    • expertise (low stat)

    The pure condi version of Diviner's, allowing a primary stat gear, to patch holes in the concentration stat, while not loosing too much dps from condis. And usable on a condi build that wants to output buffing conditions. Condi quickbrand, or potentially allacrigade would probably use it right away.

    Idolater Stats (4 stat)

    • healing power (high stat)
    • expertise (high stat)
    • condition damage (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the perfect gear, not because you'd want to stat into it fully... but because its the perfect thing for tuning. You can make up losses from using Seraph (low stat healing, and concentration.) or recover the missing expertise from Antagonizer... Or even wear it in a mix with Soothsayer to cover all your bases. (albeit with low precision, which a few pieces of Seraph could make up for.)

    And how would you balance that power damage have to battle both toughness and vitality and conditions only vitality in pve since monsters dont clense conditions like players do?

    This is way your it will do similar damage as harrier is wrong it would do more damage thne harrier.

    I disagree. Your assumption is completely ignoring a couple factors. 1) time. Direct is instant, condis aren't. 2) the size of direct damage, vs the quantity of condition stacks has already been balanced. Currently, direct damage and condition damage are in competition for 'best dps build' and, 3) situations. The graph for power damage looks very skpikey over the course of a fight, where as conditions are a long slow plateau. Short fights and phases favor power damage, as it happens more immediately... And long ones favor conditions... Because there's more time to apply more stacks. And bassicly every direct damage move hits for higher base damage than a single condition tick. But some classes can hit as fast as conditions can be applied.

    Bassicly, you are assuming that conditions are better than direct, which isn't true. They aren't magic. And a tiny investment into them, compared to a full stat set, is just as sad as power damage. Let's not forget the total lack of expertise we're talking about. (in this example) which nerfs condi down a lot. About 100% assuming no duration at all.... Vs direct, which with ferocity can explode over 200% extra damage. So condis ignore toughness? Yes, but also only ever amplify to 100% because of expertise cap. Good luck hitting the ferocity cap.

    So, even if the Agonizer set does slightly more on a golem... I can bet you the harrier Build does more damage on Samarog due to split phases, and no condi ramp up time. It's just going to depend on how that boss works, and whether or not they need condi dps or not for an optimal clear.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:
    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    That's a great point.

    The only counter argument to I that I can think of... Is that, currently power builds have ways to get back enough stats. First, Zealot and Diviner allow mixing with Harrier to get functionally mixable hybrid stats when no such option exists for condition damage while retaining healing power and/or concentration in the same way.

    When you build-up for hybrid Damage-Heal-Boon Duration stats, you will lose something. So you'll just be gimping your Healing or Concentration for the sake of doing mediocre damage. You can go Shaman+Plaguedoctor+Seraph Combo, It's like Zealot+Diviner+Harrier but you get HP as well. Just go all in full support stats without raising if you're building for raids. Honestly I'd rather have a Vitality-Healing-Concentration combo. But that would be too OP.

    Currently, the condi/ support gear sets have defensive stats, where the power sets have offensive stats. Meaning that a power based support build can tune thier gear, by swapping a few pieces. Wearing full diviner's but overcapped boon duration through a triat? Still need precision? Swap your chest to assassin, check stats, tune to taste.

    Whith the condi stat spreads, you can't tune all of your offensive stats without making some sacrifice to defense. Some sacrifice to defense you don't need.

    Also, it's possible to tune your healing down the better your static group gets, allowing you to take more damage in the slots where you have too much.

    A support build in raids needs as much healing power as your group's skill level is low. If the group is good enough to not take damage... Then... What are you there for? The gear tuning let's you start on Harrier's Alacrigade, and end on Diviner's Alacrigade all without loosing boon duration as you transition piece by piece. (not that you'd transition all the way if you're still the healer.)

    Condi gear? Offers no such tuning possibilities. And basically never gives you expertise, condition damage, healing power, and concentration. Even getting 3 of the 4 in quantities that make any sense is difficult. The only Meta Condi build uses Marshall's and Shaman's mix. (heal scourge) and even there, they make a lot of consessions, and end up with tons of vitality the build doesn't need... But ends up with anyways.... Because of the gear avaliable. (if 4 stat gear, primary Healing, Condi, secondary expertise, concentration existed, they'd probably use it. And pump out tons of might while they do ther rest of thier kit.... Flat upgrade. But it doesn't exist.)

    So, while conditions penetrate toughness, they are countered by vitality, and take time to be effective, and can be cleansed.

    Power also still has to go through that Vitality that is further reduced by toughness. Aside from selected mechanic phases, AI don't really cleanse conditions.

    True didn't think of that.

    Are you implying that strong healing power, and conditions would be overpowered? I can see that in PvP and WvW to an extent, but direct damage can't be cleansed like condis can. And if you apply less, weaker stacks, due to an edited build, then they are easier to cleanse. (easier to wait out, heal through, and blow off at peak output)

    I honestly don't get where you're going with this. Open-World solo is so trivial you don't really need to think about it too much. If you're in end-game PvE, you have other people in your group to share the burden. Also AI's don't heal and condi clear like players do.

    I brought it up, because I don't believe that conditions and healing stats together in PvE would be overpowered. But in PvP I figured it could let a person have high sustain for themselves and a group, while providing condition pressure. But that the counter play of cleansing covers it.

    Because I think the reduced investment in damage stats equally effects either damage type in so far as output. Especially because healing builds will have to take weapons and utilities for healing expressly, and loose access to condi bombs, while having the traits and abilities to be effective healers. (usually. If not, then they don't have sustained applications , and end up all bombs...Like the poison on heal scrapper.)

    So, in short I think the current state of balance between condition damage and power is such that I don't think opening up the gear options would result in a direct meta shift to all condi healers, because for some classes, like druid, harrier's will still be the best option for them.

    Can't really tell what Anet would add next. Diviner's was a surprise, and so does Minstrel during HoT. Maybe they will add the Condi version of Harrier's in the future.

    Heal scourge actually needs that vitality as vitality increase yoyr life force.

    This is true, but running soul reaping takes care of most of it, so long as you aren't hitting all your shade skills on CD you should be OK. When I ran Heal Scourge, it was right after PoF launch, and I geared mine in seraphs. Worked great. No lifeforce problems. Decent damage.

    Either way, just predicting a minor meta shift if these stats sets were available.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:
    Well, there are 5 stat combos for healing + concentration. Harrier for power, seraph/plaguedoctor's for condi, and giver/minstrel for tanking. Since healer damage is pretty trivial, using condi should work perfectly fine. Im guessing people just want to be optimal and not waste major stats on vitality or precision.

    That's exactly it. If you overcap a stat, it's completely wasted. (unless you have a % conversion trait) power gear is set up such that you can edit for overcaps. Condi gear isn't.
    Also, because the condi healing gear are both 4 stat, and healing and concentration are the low stat number... Meaning that, with how boons work and the need for 100% uptime... That condi builds cannot provide enough boon duration. In power builds, this can be edited with a few pieces of diviner gear. (as it is the only stat set in the game allowing for concentration primary stat) but no such gear set exists to allow condi healers to meet the basic needs of a raid healer. (like alacrity/quickness uptime, 25 might, 100% fury, ect)

    I propose 3 new gear sets, to cover the gaps.

    Antagonizer Stats (3 stat)

    • condition damage (high stat)
    • healing power (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the condi version of Harrier, and would allow for a pure condi Healer buffer build. No precision (condi on crit traits and sigils) no expertise... I would bet builds made this way, will output very close to harrier's.

    Soothsayer Stats (4 stat)

    • concentration (high stat)
    • condition damage (high stat)
    • precision (low stat)
    • expertise (low stat)

    The pure condi version of Diviner's, allowing a primary stat gear, to patch holes in the concentration stat, while not loosing too much dps from condis. And usable on a condi build that wants to output buffing conditions. Condi quickbrand, or potentially allacrigade would probably use it right away.

    Idolater Stats (4 stat)

    • healing power (high stat)
    • expertise (high stat)
    • condition damage (low stat)
    • concentration (low stat)

    This would be the perfect gear, not because you'd want to stat into it fully... but because its the perfect thing for tuning. You can make up losses from using Seraph (low stat healing, and concentration.) or recover the missing expertise from Antagonizer... Or even wear it in a mix with Soothsayer to cover all your bases. (albeit with low precision, which a few pieces of Seraph could make up for.)

    And how would you balance that power damage have to battle both toughness and vitality and conditions only vitality in pve since monsters dont clense conditions like players do?

    This is way your it will do similar damage as harrier is wrong it would do more damage thne harrier.

    I disagree. Your assumption is completely ignoring a couple factors. 1) time. Direct is instant, condis aren't. 2) the size of direct damage, vs the quantity of condition stacks has already been balanced. Currently, direct damage and condition damage are in competition for 'best dps build' and, 3) situations. The graph for power damage looks very skpikey over the course of a fight, where as conditions are a long slow plateau. Short fights and phases favor power damage, as it happens more immediately... And long ones favor conditions... Because there's more time to apply more stacks. And bassicly every direct damage move hits for higher base damage than a single condition tick. But some classes can hit as fast as conditions can be applied.

    Bassicly, you are assuming that conditions are better than direct, which isn't true. They aren't magic. And a tiny investment into them, compared to a full stat set, is just as sad as power damage. Let's not forget the total lack of expertise we're talking about. (in this example) which nerfs condi down a lot. About 100% assuming no duration at all.... Vs direct, which with ferocity can explode over 200% extra damage. So condis ignore toughness? Yes, but also only ever amplify to 100% because of expertise cap. Good luck hitting the ferocity cap.

    So, even if the Agonizer set does slightly more on a golem... I can bet you the harrier Build does more damage on Samarog due to split phases, and no condi ramp up time. It's just going to depend on how that boss works, and whether or not they need condi dps or not for an optimal clear.

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @borgs.6103 said:
    Yeah. What you're missing is that Power damage without precision and ferocity is wet noodle damage and has to go through the target's Toughness to reduce HP. Whereas condition damage would still do their full duration and damage even without expertise and ignores Tougness to reduce the target's HP.

    That's a great point.

    The only counter argument to I that I can think of... Is that, currently power builds have ways to get back enough stats. First, Zealot and Diviner allow mixing with Harrier to get functionally mixable hybrid stats when no such option exists for condition damage while retaining healing power and/or concentration in the same way.

    When you build-up for hybrid Damage-Heal-Boon Duration stats, you will lose something. So you'll just be gimping your Healing or Concentration for the sake of doing mediocre damage. You can go Shaman+Plaguedoctor+Seraph Combo, It's like Zealot+Diviner+Harrier but you get HP as well. Just go all in full support stats without raising if you're building for raids. Honestly I'd rather have a Vitality-Healing-Concentration combo. But that would be too OP.

    Currently, the condi/ support gear sets have defensive stats, where the power sets have offensive stats. Meaning that a power based support build can tune thier gear, by swapping a few pieces. Wearing full diviner's but overcapped boon duration through a triat? Still need precision? Swap your chest to assassin, check stats, tune to taste.

    Whith the condi stat spreads, you can't tune all of your offensive stats without making some sacrifice to defense. Some sacrifice to defense you don't need.

    Also, it's possible to tune your healing down the better your static group gets, allowing you to take more damage in the slots where you have too much.

    A support build in raids needs as much healing power as your group's skill level is low. If the group is good enough to not take damage... Then... What are you there for? The gear tuning let's you start on Harrier's Alacrigade, and end on Diviner's Alacrigade all without loosing boon duration as you transition piece by piece. (not that you'd transition all the way if you're still the healer.)

    Condi gear? Offers no such tuning possibilities. And basically never gives you expertise, condition damage, healing power, and concentration. Even getting 3 of the 4 in quantities that make any sense is difficult. The only Meta Condi build uses Marshall's and Shaman's mix. (heal scourge) and even there, they make a lot of consessions, and end up with tons of vitality the build doesn't need... But ends up with anyways.... Because of the gear avaliable. (if 4 stat gear, primary Healing, Condi, secondary expertise, concentration existed, they'd probably use it. And pump out tons of might while they do ther rest of thier kit.... Flat upgrade. But it doesn't exist.)

    So, while conditions penetrate toughness, they are countered by vitality, and take time to be effective, and can be cleansed.

    Power also still has to go through that Vitality that is further reduced by toughness. Aside from selected mechanic phases, AI don't really cleanse conditions.

    True didn't think of that.

    Are you implying that strong healing power, and conditions would be overpowered? I can see that in PvP and WvW to an extent, but direct damage can't be cleansed like condis can. And if you apply less, weaker stacks, due to an edited build, then they are easier to cleanse. (easier to wait out, heal through, and blow off at peak output)

    I honestly don't get where you're going with this. Open-World solo is so trivial you don't really need to think about it too much. If you're in end-game PvE, you have other people in your group to share the burden. Also AI's don't heal and condi clear like players do.

    I brought it up, because I don't believe that conditions and healing stats together in PvE would be overpowered. But in PvP I figured it could let a person have high sustain for themselves and a group, while providing condition pressure. But that the counter play of cleansing covers it.

    Because I think the reduced investment in damage stats equally effects either damage type in so far as output. Especially because healing builds will have to take weapons and utilities for healing expressly, and loose access to condi bombs, while having the traits and abilities to be effective healers. (usually. If not, then they don't have sustained applications , and end up all bombs...Like the poison on heal scrapper.)

    So, in short I think the current state of balance between condition damage and power is such that I don't think opening up the gear options would result in a direct meta shift to all condi healers, because for some classes, like druid, harrier's will still be the best option for them.

    Can't really tell what Anet would add next. Diviner's was a surprise, and so does Minstrel during HoT. Maybe they will add the Condi version of Harrier's in the future.

    Heal scourge actually needs that vitality as vitality increase yoyr life force.

    This is true, but running soul reaping takes care of most of it, so long as you aren't hitting all your shade skills on CD you should be OK. When I ran Heal Scourge, it was right after PoF launch, and I geared mine in seraphs. Worked great. No lifeforce problems. Decent damage.

    Either way, just predicting a minor meta shift if these stats sets were available.

    Yeah the funny thing about heal scourge is that it does its job even in full vipers if we are talking about bosses bosses where usually 1 healer is enough.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    If only we were able to put stats wherever we pleased...

    I would have sooo much fun with that, it's not even funny.

    And you'd probably break the game. Let's face it, many of GW2's underlying systems (here: stats, boons, traits) are a mess that's just a step away from total failure. Total stat freedom would instantly evaporate any pretence of balance.

    Praise delta!

  • @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @KidRoleplay.3615 said:
    If only we were able to put stats wherever we pleased...

    I would have sooo much fun with that, it's not even funny.

    And you'd probably break the game. Let's face it, many of GW2's underlying systems (here: stats, boons, traits) are a mess that's just a step away from total failure. Total stat freedom would instantly evaporate any pretence of balance.

    Mostly. Because stats have caps, the full stat freedom wouldn't necessarily break the game... It would shatter the meta. And everyone without the legendary armor would cry. But... It wouldn't cause a total meltdown.

    That being said. I would prefer restricted stat sets. There's just not enough of them to allow the build system to do everything it could do.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.