Suggestion: Basilisk Venom Buff

Flaws and op-ness aside with the suggestion, I would rather this be a civil discussion. Perhaps add your own, and say what you might rather see instead, or the weaknesses of the suggestion and how that might be resolved.

If you think basilisk is fine, I will tell you right now that I disagree.

Original

Basilisk Venom (30s): Your attacks turn foes to stone.

• Stone Duration: 1.5s
• Number of Targets: 5
• Venom Duration: 30 seconds
• Radius: 240
• Unblockable

Suggested:

Basilisk Venom (30s): Your attacks turn foes to stone. If you are struck while under this effect, your attacker is turned to stone, and you gain barrier. Venom is consumed.

• Stone Duration: 1s
• Number of Targets: 5
• Venom Duration: 30 seconds
• Radius: 360
• Removes a boon
• Unblockable

Cast time and recharge stay the same.

Any reasoning behind these changes?

@Sobx.1758 said:Any reasoning behind these changes?

Well.

I always thought the share radius was a bit small, and the increase in range was also to benefit the alternative effect without being a rediculous range.

If thieves are choosing daggerstorm still, perhaps it is more because of the evade? So defense.

If a little defense was built into this skill perhaps it would gain favor. (That's the alternative effect)

Decrease stun duration as a concession.

Remove boon because boon fiesta.

I feel it will still require timing for yourself at least if the intent is to be offensive otherwise you can burn it when you did t mean to.

You dont get all the benefits, it is either or.

I don't use BV much but I do like it on DE sometimes to be carried in by a ranged hit or a triggered hit like a Marked Stolen Item to pop stealth. I might be reading wrong but it looks like the suggested option leaves the effect up to my opponent as well and it could go off at entirely the wrong time when I'd need a deliberate attempt. I think the strength in BV right now is that it can be precise and timed just right which can be clutch if you just denied something big and also cause panic by flipping their rush into yours. I think it's alright at the moment, or maybe I don't use it enough to see what's wrong with it but even the cooldown is pretty fair.

Thing is this isnt an 1on1 game,from an 1on1 perspective i could say it could use a buff but i already think the share is quite strong if your teammates have a brain and not all attack at once after the first apply. Thief can also steal boons well enough on its own,adding 1 extra boon remove per ally seems a bit strong. I also don't really see a reason to give thief barrier. We need less carrying mechanics,not more.

We also need less boonspamm across all classes and less boon uptime with longer cd's on them,not more boon removal. It will be great against full boonspammers but destroys a spec with less boonuptime.

@Caedmon.6798 said:Thing is this isnt an 1on1 game,from an 1on1 perspective i could say it could use a buff but i already think the share is quite strong if your teammates have a brain and not all attack at once after the first apply. Thief can also steal boons well enough on its own,adding 1 extra boon remove per ally seems a bit strong. I also don't really see a reason to give thief barrier. We need less carrying mechanics,not more.

We also need less boonspamm across all classes and less boon uptime with longer cd's on them,not more boon removal. It will be great against full boonspammers but destroys a spec with less boonuptime.

90% of the time you are not sharing this with more than 1 person.

On the opening, yeah it can be strong, but even with the changes it still wouldn't be as strong as some of the other elites.

I bet only 1 out of 10 thieves used this skill anymore.

It's not because it got weaker, but everyone else and everything else got stronger... a lot stronger.

I dont see that any class needs barrier except maybe scourge, but here we are.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:Thing is this isnt an 1on1 game,from an 1on1 perspective i could say it could use a buff but i already think the share is quite strong if your teammates have a brain and not all attack at once after the first apply. Thief can also steal boons well enough on its own,adding 1 extra boon remove per ally seems a bit strong. I also don't really see a reason to give thief barrier. We need less carrying mechanics,not more.

We also need less boonspamm across all classes and less boon uptime with longer cd's on them,not more boon removal. It will be great against full boonspammers but destroys a spec with less boonuptime.

I don't think we see much melee thieves anymore because of all the crazy aoe spamm and how much damage it does and how random it is. Like on De you can sit pretty safely doing proper dmg from 1.5k range compared to being in there trying to stab while taking random dmg,why even bother with melee thief at this point. I don't think it's thieves that needs buffs though,i think were quite fine. Everything else is just pretty overtuned. Aoe's doing too much for how big the radius is and for how easy it is to land.

If they took the evade away from daggerstorm, I know "thief mains" would take a different perspective on the state of this skill.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:If they took the evade away from daggerstorm, I know "thief mains" would take a different perspective on the state of this skill.

Well daggerstorm is op i agree.

What instead of boonrips it would add fear ( which is an unblockable effect ) to people near your target in w/e radius for w/e seconds ?

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:snip

Keep Basilisk Venom as is but make the "turn to stone" a status effect called "Petrified". If you are petrified, you will receive no effect from your boons (i.e. Regen will not heal you, Protection will not grant dmg reduction, Aegis will not block, etc.) for the duration of the effect.

This will be the opposite of Resistance ignoring effect of conditions, which Petrified will ignore the effects from boons. This will make this skill very appealing and effective without stripping any boon from the target.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Suggested:

Basilisk Venom (30s): Your attacks turn foes to stone. If you are struck while under this effect, your attacker is turned to stone, and you gain barrier. Venom is consumed.

• Stone Duration: 1s
• Number of Targets: 5
• Venom Duration: 30 seconds
• Radius: 360
• Removes a boon
• Unblockable

Cast time and recharge stay the same.

Personally, I like Basilisk Venom. The problem is that it's not as effective/useful in today's game as it was before the expansions... especially compared to the other elite utilities.

I must confess that I don't like the idea of turning the opponent into stone if they hit you. It's just a consistency issue, because I never liked other similar functions such as Mesmer's Mirror of Anguish, Necro's Reaper's Protection, or even the boon Retaliation. I just don't agree with a successful attack damaging/harming the attacker.

With that said, I'm certainly not against defense itself. So perhaps reducing damage while the effect is active would be an alternative. By activating Basilisk Venom, the Thief would basically gain "Stoneskin." Perhaps, as the actual Stoneskin, incoming damage would be halved... but only until the Thief actually strikes the target, transferring the venom into the target, turning it into stone, and the Thief losing the defensive benefits.

That would give the Thief some tactical decisions to make. Should it play defensive to prolong an encounter, not being able to do attack without losing the Stoneskin, or simply use the defense to get close enough to disable the target as quickly as possible?

Then you have another issue. Should the defensive effect affect only the Thief? Or should it apply to everyone that it is shared with? I don't think that would work well. That's a potential 5 players taking half damage for 30 seconds... even if they can't attack without losing the Stoneskin. That seems to be way too extreme. So I'd suggest that only the Thief acquire Stoneskin.

The real question is... would it give a "bunker" Thief too much of an edge? Especially evasive Thieves such as Staff Daredevils? They would have to contend with having to deliberately NOT hit any enemies, though, so their evasive skills would be rather limited.

Whatever the case, I would argue for Basilisk Venom to be instant-cast just as the other venoms. Especially for its Unblockable effect to be much more useful. At least then, when a Thief sees a block, it can deal with it immediately instead of having to wait for the cast. And if it doesn't receive any other buff but becoming instant-cast, I wish it would become just a normal utility instead of an elite.

Basilisk Venom: Next attack is unblockable and turns foes to stone. Thief gains Stoneskin.Instant-cast, 40-second cooldown

• Basilisk Venom: Your attacks turn foes to stone.
• Stoneskin: While Basilisk Venom is active, reduce incoming damage 50%
• Stone Duration: 1.5s
• Number of Targets: 5
• Venom Duration: 30 seconds
• Radius: 360
• Unblockable

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:

snip

That sounds like a more interesting idea imo

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:

snip

Yeah, this is a good idea.

Better than mine lol.

I think this change would remove a skillful usage of the venom regarding the team mates you shared it with (because enemy in teamfight would just CC themselves so your team mates wouldn't even have to bother to use brain, and I dont like dumbing down on active gameplay) plus prevent the Thief from setting up his burst in case he got hit once by some random stuff flying around. (literally meaning, piercing projectiles, random reflects, magical AoEs that were not even pointed at the Thief, all the cluster fuck stuff you get hit from without even entering the fight or anyone noticing you)

I like the Boon removal buff, however generally I'd be just happy if it was reverted to the form when it used to grant two stacks of Basilisk venom or better yet make it 2 charge ammo system.

Sorry if some of this was brought up already, didn't really read anyones else's posts (sorry for that people :lol: )

@Alatar.7364 said:I think this change would remove a skillful usage of the venom regarding the team mates you shared it with (because enemy in teamfight would just CC themselves so your team mates wouldn't even have to bother to use brain, and I dont like dumbing down on active gameplay) plus prevent the Thief from setting up his burst in case he got hit once by some random stuff flying around. (literally meaning, piercing projectiles, random reflects, magical AoEs that were not even pointed at the Thief, all the cluster kitten stuff you get hit from without even entering the fight or anyone noticing you)

I like the Boon removal buff, however generally I'd be just happy if it was reverted to the form when it used to grant two stacks of Basilisk venom or better yet make it 2 charge ammo system.

Sorry if some of this was brought up already, didn't really read anyones else's posts (sorry for that people :lol: )

I like to crank out 100s of bad ideas, hoping to hit the 1 good one.

Often, when I share my bad ideas, people around me, or in the case of the forums, pipe up and have even better ones.

There are some good ones in this thread.

Having ammo would be cool - I've never really felt the second follow up charge was all that needed. I just want to land my burst and then get out.

I think making it ammo + adding a 'negates boons while applied' would be excellent. Still offensive, helps with boonspam while not making it OP against classes that haven't had their boon access creeped up.

Heck this might make that one boonsteal trait in Trickery less borderline required xD

Wtb some more elite options in general tho. It's weird how many classes have elite skills that are just hot garbage

@Alatar.7364 said:generally I'd be just happy if it was reverted to the form when it used to grant two stacks of Basilisk venom or better yet make it 2 charge ammo system.

Yes, I'd like the 2-charge ammo system much better... for some reason, Anet decided to not let the Petrified status stack in duration. So whether you have two stacks of venom and hit back to back or if you and an ally each have one stack and hit simultaneously, you're only going to get one application's worth of Petrified duration on the target.

At least if you had 2 charges, you could stagger the applications, and wail away at the target while they are actually stunned without worrying about wasting extra charges.

Venoms really need an overhaul. Basi venom kind of sucks, and the only venoms people take other than it are Spider for condi builds (and sometimes Skale with it). Nobody takes Ice Drake or Devourer. The heal venom was only passable when you could reduce the CD to 24s.