Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds

Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.

Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Many of those ‘one shot builds’ are developed that way because of their damage traits and buffs to allow them to provide DPS in raids. Many of us have asked for skill splits on a higher magnitude than what is currently in play, and the general sense from the Devs has been that the skills can only be split so much.

Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.

No, they wouldn’t impact those who Zerg. But again, it would impact the people who raid and do higher level fractals..

Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

Wow... way to set the conditions so that anyone who disagrees only plays those builds and essentially should be disregarded..

???????

All I hear are your tears dripping to the ground. I think there is a general consensus over that damage (and healing) is overtuned relative damage mitigation, however, you are providing nothing that could create a constructive discussion of that. You are just complaining about people who kill you because you are unable to counterplay them. There's a huge difference between whining about getting killed and making sensible and factual arguments that could further the balance of the mode. So I agree that there is an underlying discussion to be had about balance but you are just going boohoo classes, that's not helpful.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:All I hear are your tears dripping to the ground. I think there is a general consensus over that damage (and healing) is overtuned relative damage mitigation, however, you are providing nothing that could create a sensible discussion of that. You are just complaining about people who kill you because you are unable to counterplay them. There's a huge difference between whining about getting killed and making sensible and factual arguments that could further the balance of the mode. So I agree that there is an underlying discussion to be had about balance but you are just going boohoo classes, that's not helpful.

I am one of those peoples that use one shot builds, but i did not start playing the game as one of those classes, I was forced by the lack of balance in wvw.

If you jump to conclusions that a person is crying at least make sure that they do not speak the truth.

I have tried and asked many other better players than me for ex to use a necro against a thief/mesmer,warrior,ranger, using the most broken builds and not the best necro player i could find would win at all unless one of the others made a huge mistake.

Kindly reply with useful feedback now if you please and maybe point out what could be done to fix the matter and i will continue to discuss it further with you or just ignore me and write another joyful comment and I will ignore it.

Thank you

Posts like yours are invariably a l2p issue.

posts like this just show how much raids have actually hurt the game.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:posts like this just show how much raids have actually hurt the game.Quoted for truth.

@Mikhael.2391 said:Kindly reply with useful feedback now if you please and maybe point out what could be done to fix the matter and i will continue to discuss it further with you or just ignore me and write another joyful comment and I will ignore it.

Thank youI think you are missing my point. In the OP you are only saying that there is a problem, you do not properly identify what the problem is, why it is a problem or how to adress it in a way that would create a better situation.

These days these forums are full of complaints about whatever the current flavour of the month is and balance is just adressed by putting out fires and recycling into new flavours of the month. None of those threads talk about what the actual problems are (just the symptoms) and no one creates any form of constructive discussion on how to create a more stable system with less volatility and fluxuation.

We simply go from one broken thing to the next because people have lost focus on what balance actually is (tolerable differences), how to create better balance (smaller frequence differentials) and they are dragging ArenaNet down with them. People are making the actual balance worse with their actions.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:posts like this just show how much raids have actually hurt the game.

I don't think many people realize this, but this is exactly why balance has gone the way of the dodo bird. Raids and dps meters; they're the issue. Then the honorable mention goes to the fact MMORPG's can't focus their end game on PvE content.

Balance needs to be addressed in competitive mode's only, PvE should be an afterthought. Any class can take any build and pretty much run through 99.9% of the PvE content in this game, so why decisions made to address "balance" around a fractionally small raid community is beyond me.

In PoF, damage was buffed way too much and it's messed up and already messy mess. Damage needs to be reduced across the board, but there are problems with boon spamming, too, because PoF wrecked that as well. It's obvious that the xpac put the last nail in the coffin of an already awful combat system. I gave WvW another try this evening and the damage numbers are just bonkers - and all just to help PvE players take down super-tough PoF mobs.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:Kindly reply with useful feedback now if you please and maybe point out what could be done to fix the matter and i will continue to discuss it further with you or just ignore me and write another joyful comment and I will ignore it.

Thank youI think you are missing my point. In the OP you are only saying that there is a problem, you do not properly identify what the problem is, why it is a problem or how to adress it in a way that would create a better situation.

Thank you, i think the problem is that wvw should have dedicated balance and Arenanet should look into what the players complain about.

I find it amuzing one shotting people and escaping huge groups as a mesmer or thief or ranger or warrior, but I was forced to leave my favorite characters because of the lack of balance.

And when im the other end im just thinking that when attacked by surporise by ONE player only its not a l2p issue if all it took was one shot so i wont reply to comments regarding l2p issues.

This game was supposed to end the whole holy trinity of mmos, that each person could have all the tools they need for most parts necesssary and means to escape/fight back, necros are free loot bags in WvW without babysitters and any outnumbered fight a necro wins is due to the others being below the player skill level.

the same does not apply the other way around. A mesmer or thief or warrior or ranger can kill 2 necros of the same skill level just because the clas mechanics utilities allows that to happen.

An idea if ANET would ever care would be to just try and do group fights or just a few 2vs2 or 3vs3 or 1vs1 (lol) against known youtubers that are actually quite good on those builds and then see how they think its fair or fun for both players.

@"Mikhael.2391" said:This game was supposed to end the whole holy trinity of mmos, that each person could have all the tools they need for most parts necesssary and means to escape/fight back, necros are free loot bags in WvW without babysitters and any outnumbered fight a necro wins is due to the others being below the player skill level.

the same does not apply the other way around. A mesmer or thief or warrior or ranger can kill 2 necros of the same skill level just because the clas mechanics utilities allows that to happen.

An idea if ANET would ever care would be to just try and do group fights /.../ known youtubers that are actually quite good on those builds and then see how they think its fair or fun for both players.

(ed. timer: 00:49)

B)You can check out videos from Sind or someone for Necro representation in both 2v2 and 5v5 endgame sPvP.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.

Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

A)Yes Arena.NET looking mostly on Raids but there were options e.g they could have reduced the dmg in pvp and wvw around 33-40%. This would have made the dps flat with what I believe was max in core game. With the start of PoF they decided to go into another way basically supplying in wvw the -33% with protection or the other way around they decided to create classes which helps with the problem instead to go to the roots of it(FB). On top of that they created another class to bring the poison in again with Scourge making the previous solution nearly voided.

I don't think this is solvable without redesign multiply classes at once at this point.

B) Also PvE has also a problem with the that everyone is staring on the DPS I wouldn't say Arc DPS but the DPS benchmarks which the top guilds brings out. What most people don't know is they are focused around big hitboxes which are common in raids. Fractals and pvp have small hitboxes . The dmg you do with the built which are common for raids are very different from the one done in most of the Fractals(not all are small hitboxes but e.g ARC is). The power scale is like this :

Swordweaver(35K) > Berserker Warrior > Reaper(30-31k) > DH > Staff Weaver (25-26k) > S/W Tempest(not viable)

(DH vs Reaper I'm not sure but this is my impression from the standard pugs in fractals)

The spread is much bigger for the the benchmarks of the big hitboxes e.g staff weaver has 30K while the strongest build Swordweaver has 37k

C) I also have the impression Arena.NEt likes the idea of oneshot builts or ons which can kill you with 2 hits basically inspiring to play on a super high level . The problem is not many in this game can play at this level but many can use the skills to oneshot someone (or in 2). In general Arena.NET balancing team seems very opportunistic if I may say that.

D) Which brings me to my final point what I really don't like the last 12 months are the push for 'forcing' players into new built . I mean when you make the builds kinda equal but giving the new a tick more is okay but we have seen it with the whole fractal meta and then making chrono hardly usable in wvw and replacing it with scrapper and now Shout Warrior which is ....not balanced. From a player perspective this is toxic.

What also a problem for pvp is that the burst is too high I mean in general super fast spamming of boons , power dps but also instant spamming of condis = Mirage , Scourge, the new condi Tempest

@Mikhael.2391 said:Why Balancing the game in WvW from broken extreme annoying builds more used for ROAMING and small scale (one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage) would be bad ?

Looking for honest answer since in my opinion making these builds disappear or nerfed severely would have no affect on the zerg brainlesss fights anyway and would make the small ( because people still think its small when its not) groups / players more interested in playing in less numbers having a more satisfied experience.

Ofc the classes mentioned above will be the first ones disagreeing with this but it is to be expected on these posts.

Classes that can kill you in less than 3 seconds, yet get away from 5-10 players are over-powered in WvW. No class should have such mobility, range and damage. You should only be able to utilize 2 of the 3. For example, mobility + damage or range + mobility. If one class can utilize all three, it is unfair to classes which can only utilize two.

Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:

Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp which means that 2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.

If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:

Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp which means that 2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.

If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

This thing about bringing a friend is the one thing I struggle with in Gw2 WvW , leading to me getting way to salty :(Been solo roaming many years now and the mentality some have with no they dont get one friend when you beat them they often get a whole gank squad.If you outnumber the enemy in this mode I personally feel like a cheater. ( not 45 vs 50 more like 1 vs 2, 25 vs 50 etc)I belive it is caused by too many different motivations to play the mode.

Would removing gift of battle from WvW and all other rewards make the mode more about fighting ? (could it also make WvW draw in more income as more gold would be neede from gemstore to not run low if you dont PvE )

@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:

Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp which means that 2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.

If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

This isn't true. Numbers are the primary driver of success in wvw but builds and matchups matter too. There is also the very occasional fight where player skill can become involved, but I agree those are so rare as to be unworthy of mention . . .

Anet and Community please comment this..

:joy:

I think builds that can down a person in a second are overtuned and need to be nerfed. I don't understand why people would defend this. The whole part of wvw is to fight other players, and how is one shotting, or almost one shotting, fighting? Not saying all fights should take minutes, but if I am honest the fights I had that were longer were in the end way more fun that insta dowing someone or vice versa.

@Gop.8713 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:

Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp

which means that

2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.

If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:

Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp

which means that

2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.

If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

Despite builds having more success against other certain builds none of them despite having the upper hand should be completely OP

@Gop.8713 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Here is the super secret truth of class balance that everybody knows but no one will admit:

Any class can bring any other class down at least 50% hp

which means that

2 vs 1 is always a winnable scenario and the core of what drives WvW as a game mode - if you cant beat them, bring a friend.

If you fail at any part of this scenario, you got outplayed.

Yeah don't worry about class balance or team balance just be on the most stacked server guys EZ.. Worked great for NA...

Maybe I'm an anomaly but, If I get killed by one of the aforementioned 'one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage', my first thought is what can I do differently? It's extremely rare that I will rage. I will rez, track down the same opponent, and try again. It's very possible I die over and over again, have my dead body jumped on while I check the dmg logs, and become a bag vending machine. However, I will not be discouraged. At no point will I analyze the situation in a way that the game has pigeon-holed me with an inherent disadvantage and the only solution is to handicap everything else so that I gain the upper hand. Instead, I welcome the challenge, analyze my own performance, and make some changes. Some encounters are more difficult and tedious than others but, I feel that is to be expected and there is no problem with this - some classes, mechanically, will counter others.

Long story short, the rift between class balance might not be as big as you think.

@Aspen Tie.5084 said:Maybe I'm an anomaly but, If I get killed by one of the aforementioned 'one shot mesmers, unkilable rangers, runaway warriors, one shot thiefs or dodging forever ones while dealling damage', my first thought is what can I do differently? It's extremely rare that I will rage. I will rez, track down the same opponent, and try again. It's very possible I die over and over again, have my dead body jumped on while I check the dmg logs, and become a bag vending machine. However, I will not be discouraged. At no point will I analyze the situation in a way that the game has pigeon-holed me with an inherent disadvantage and the only solution is to handicap everything else so that I gain the upper hand. Instead, I welcome the challenge, analyze my own performance, and make some changes. Some encounters are more difficult and tedious than others but, I feel that is to be expected and there is no problem with this - some classes, mechanically, will counter others.

Long story short, the rift between class balance might not be as big as you think.

You can change all you want and be encouraged to do better, i commend you for it and I try to do the same untill after spending x amount on different gears try new specs and rotations end up in the same result. I give the necro and guardian example (not fb elite) same skill lvl players will need that one build to demy these 2 anything you bring against them.

Also notice that not seeing them coming and get one shoted will have nothing to do with your skill or resolve.

Thanks

@Mikhael.2391 said:

I give the necro and guardian example (not fb elite) same skill lvl players will need that one build to demy these 2 anything you bring against them.

I see some previous posts how you think necros get the short end of the stick and I really can't comment in regards to that. Guardian, however, regardless of elite, is not a victim to this. Unless I am misunderstanding you, and your saying guardian/ necro burst is undeniable?

edit: grammar