Can we be met halfway on quality of life for Chrono? What playstyle/tradeoff do people want? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we be met halfway on quality of life for Chrono? What playstyle/tradeoff do people want?

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 12, 2019 in Mesmer

The biggest complaints for Chrono seem to be "where is IP?" and "wells don't function well outside of PvE." Unfortunately the changes to Lost Time and Seize the Moment do not fully address these major QoL issues. The former can give us some of the alacrity we would have had from dry shattering but none of the other benefits. And the latter allows us to drop Well of Action but does nothing for the other wells.

@Robert Gee.9246 is it possible to meet us halfway with QoL? For instance if Illusionary Persona replaced Lost Time (still max 3) and Seize the Moment simply made wells PBAoEs. Everyone would still have one or more quality of life issues to deal with and Chrono would still have four altered shatters. It doesn't have to be that. I'm sure you and this community could come up with better halfway approaches. Can there be an open discussion of what tradeoff and playstyle you want for Chrono?

Edit: I realise forum people aren't always nice. If you want to describe your vision in an announcement and not directly communicate with us that's cool too.

<13

Comments

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:
    I understand where you're coming from, but frankly I disagree entirely.

    Balancing a spec should never come at the expense of usability and fun, and by proposing that you're literally threading back into 2012, where we had to trait for IP. It's not "halfway", it's "back alley 6 years ago".

    Not only you're introducing significant gameplay difference within one spec of one class (and not by role- but by literally how it feels to play, which is entirely against their whole excuse of merging CS and Distortion - because "chrono shouldn't have five buttons, it's too different!"), but you're also inducting another round of mandatory, must-have traits like IH. In short, you're proposing an even greater mess and discord into already very clearly troubled class on an extremely troubled spec.

    Also, can we ask why Ranger's fine with getting an extra F5 button, but we're supposed to not have an extra one for some reason?

    Danger Time must go for DPS chrono to be a thing anywhere but in raid content. Where it's stacked with itself to provide Slow. Which is a completely baffling design in a game where every class is supposed to have a functional DPS spec, yet is not allowed in because that exists.
    IP must return. If you guys are removing us a shatter because "it's not four", and then you're making it so shatters are Meant to be used completely differently, you're kind of not following your own logic here at all, minus all of the ridiculousness of Distortion not Diversion being our strongest defense and sometimes offense tools, and most often (for Diversion) - most beneficial to use dry. Inability to CS prestack also severely hurt fractal chrono to a point where it's not worth picking. Removal of dry CS use made spec go from "unique and interesting" to "below mediocre" in an instant in a lot of it's QoL uses.
    There are a lot of your old nerfs that you need to revisit for PvP, as most of them were dealing with indirect symptoms of bigger issues. Now it just leaves a ton of things underpowered and borderline useless.

    Conclusion? Bargaining is a stage of grief. Don't settle for less than good, because it already was incredible once - and it can and should be good. There were a lot of ways to make the spec better without any of this IP nonsense 2012 timetravel (heh). Some of it is already implemented even - new Seize The Moment would've actually been great back when you made us run 2 wells+SoI at all times, because this would've meant that it grants us a utility slot back, yay. Now it kind of doesn't really help. We've got bigger fish to fry, like all of the mentioned above. Even if there are some halfway solutions, it's absolutely not what you're proposing, unfortunately.

    Then what would you propose if they absolutely did not want IP to come back to Chrono? Assuming that's their vision, but who knows. Radio silence does neither party any good.

  • I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

  • @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

    utter removal of elite spec and start over.
    chronophantasma is toxic.
    csplit is toxic, remove and start over.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

    utter removal of elite spec and start over.
    chronophantasma is toxic.
    csplit is toxic, remove and start over.

    So the topic is meeting them halfway. Not burn it all down.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

    utter removal of elite spec and start over.
    chronophantasma is toxic.
    csplit is toxic, remove and start over.

    So the topic is meeting them halfway. Not burn it all down.

    it kinda is meeting half way.
    becouse of chronophantasma and csplit, every single mesmer phantasm is bad.
    we have 0 utility phantasms that provide any sort of damage. why? becouse with csplit and chronophantsma you can make them hit 2-4times so they have to be made kitten.
    rework csplit, rework chronophantasma. give us something else, buff back phantasms/mesmer skills, nerf clone damage. yeeeet fixed.

    PS people use phantasmal defender for damage ( it hits for like 2k LUL, but there is nothing better to take )
    inb4 they overnerf chronophantasma, csplit and give us " new chaotic interuption " level of trait.

  • Complete redesign of it's core aspects. If it isn't supposed to grant the same degree of illusion control, then what is it that we're supposed to turn to? It used to be the insanely deep mechanical complexity and how Chronomancer pulls about third of mesmer kit out of garbage bin, the unique party enhancements that were never seen before from a support (quickness/alacrity being permanent, mainly). Did they want it to be a support? It could do more with that by giving it something better to heal and maybe stack some defensive boons better, especially since current competitors for Chrono generally do exactly that. Did they want it to have DPS? Make it good without relying on DT, then. Even after that "tradeoff rework" nothing about it's identity crisis was addressed or improved to a positive degree much.

    Let's look at where we at right now and make an easy overview because I'm actively procrastinating from my work, so I'm gonna write a thinkpiece about "how do I want to see chrono improved". Yes, I am productive. Hire me.

    Let's also preface it by saying that I'm by no means an expert, and I'm not pining to be one, either. If anyone reading this has better ideas or improvement suggestions, please be my guest and build upon any of that, or disagree with it freely. Opinions are exactly that, opinions. I'm just sharing mine in a bigger text this time.


    Class weapon is shield, and overall it's pretty good. I wouldn't mind seeing the return of Alacrity on shield phantasm attacks, as it COULD allow us to drop the Recall well - if it's balanced right. Before I hear a complaint about "it'll make alacrity too easy", I'll humbly remind you about rev literally pressing 1 button for 100% uptime on CD. Clearly, in current design providing boons isn't supposed to be that challenging. Opening options about your choices (do I want to rely on wells for my alacrity, or weapon skills) could be a beneficial move for build diversity within a spec.

    Delayed Reactions

    Why's it not minor? You literally baked slow damage bonus into new and shiny Split Second™, and the "alacrity on shatter" and "movement speed boost" minors are both mediocre and provide lip service to a bygone era of classes actually needing those 25% movement traits. It could easily be a part of Flow of Time and open us up for a new trait entirely.

    Trait rating: Bad.

    Time Catches Up

    It's supposed to be a damage boost trait, but it directly competes with Delayed Reactions, which you need to abuse Danger Time in case there's no 6 more Chronos around, throwing timewarps. Flawed design just because it's synergy with Chrono's own kit is... eh? Again, do something about Delayed Reactions. Let's call this one a DPS build trait for now, as it provides a flat bonus.

    Something also needs to be said about the fact that it is, in fact, just a meh damage bonus and it's "meat" of the trait is that superspeed, which is super useful in PvP, actually. Perhaps the damage bonus could be shifted into this new theoretical trait in place of Delayed Reactions and this trait can become a "shatter utility one"?

    All's Well That Ends Well

    Too meh to really bother building for a healer chrono, which is evidently intended, yet underused. It still locks you into as many wells as possible, and we all know that wells in current age ain't that good for most of the content, to be honest. It's a trait that could be reworked to allow Healer true-support chrono to happen. Or if it's not what's intended, then why does it exist?

    Danger Time

    The root of all DPS Chrono problems. Kill it, give it something that can be used much easier in 5-man or solo as well as in raids. Preferably something engaging too, not just flat number inflation - make me press my shatters differently, make me avoid getting 3 clones up at all times or whatever, changes Split Second functionality or even CS itself, anything fun, really.

    Illusionary Reversion

    It's a sad and underused trait. Help it by changing it's functionality, because the way chrono designed right now - it craves additional clonegen without Scepter at all times, and this one ain't cutting it very well most of the time.

    Improved Alacrity

    Is a bandaid trait to fix the fact that they removed CD reduction for wells out of AWTEW and to still allow 100% uptimes. How about we just reduce well CDs by default, and free us up a slot for a new support-oriented trait? Or a defensive one? Both this and Reversion also just feel so... underwhelming compared to a gigantic damage bonus Danger Time provides. It's only picked out of necessity, not because anyone really wants it in their life. And that''s not fun.

    Time Marches On

    In current day and age, this trait is "meh". Mounts exist. Also, it's mesmer. We blink through everything when mounts are being all lazy.

    Maybe give us a strong movement speed bonus after breaking stuns or something, or when using CS. Like, to really sell the whole "time marches on" pun, if Chrono gets somehow slowed down - they just speed up and march on?

    ** Lost Time**

    Self-alacrity trait that only really works if you got Delayed Reactions, otherwise by default you have minimal access to Slow to really capitalize on that.
    Why? I dunno. It exists, though.

    Make it into something useful.

    Seize the Moment

    Is currently good and could open interesting things, if other aspects of the spec were brought up to speed.

    Chronophantasma

    Kinda super-duper dominant, but also dead in PvP because that 50% damage reduction is steep and it also significantly slows down time before your clones actually become usable for shattering. It's a... "fine"?.. grandmaster DPS trait with it's own payoff, but please revisit it's plethora of PvP nerfs. Right now, picking it is actively detrimental, because they're dazed for too long and can easily die while standing still being useless, and it slows your clone generation time for no real reason - those 2.5k extra damage on giant delay which will probably be dodged/blocked if my berserkers ain't dead before a second whirl are seriously not worth the hassle at this point, yet no good alternative to run is provided. Lost Time was that, but it's gone.


    So, yeah, that's the issues I'd wanna see addressed. It doesn't even have a lot to do with the IP thing, but IP was definitely a last straw on top of all of that.

  • IP

    If they wanna keep the ‘shatters require clones to activate’ then chrono definitely needs a way to retain their profession resource (either clones or clone shatter level).

    Otherwise, IP or riot.

    Chrono shatters

    Currently inferior copies of core shatters with slapped-on effects to make them seem more powerful. Where is the chrono theme? What makes these worth losing IP and Distortion?

    • There is no ‘split second’ in Split Second.
    • Rewinder makes sense.
    • Time Sink should focus on making the opponent waste time, rather than just only making them slower (which can be passively/easily cleansed anyway).
    • Csplit also fits but still needs some serious QoL, for both the chrono and the opponent.

    There’s definitely other areas for complaint, but IMO these two strike as the most obvious when discussing chrono + trade offs.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Yeah, hard agree.

    You know, with a name "Split Second™" they could literally give us a second of splitting which only works for weapons skills that does PBAOE damage equal to like 1.5 clone shatter and minus the "revert HP/endurance/position" at the end, which only uses one clone per activation. Like, you warp time to deal more damage by pouring out more phantasms or using high-damage skills (I know, we have grand total of 1 and it's only that in PvE), but you give up that one-shot bomb combowombo that was so "problematic" in the process and kinda leave the whole "Core mesmer but with slight improvements" niche to Mirage. This way we get to actually use our profession mechanic more than once in forever, at least. Rewinder could give you more self-alacrity built in, because, like, it rewinds (which will make it of more use for power oriented builds too from utility standpoint), and Time Sink could pulse chill and slow around you for 2/3/4 pulses (+ initial Diversion CC, but that could actually be toned down to a static second of daze/stun if traited for that as the focus will go into exactly sinking time). It could reward you for staying close by pulsing you a second of quickness each time you slow down something in pulses, act as a good "cover condition source" and will slow enemy cooldowns and movement. Oh, and we could get our CS down to normal distortion CD if we gave up weapon skills duping to Split Second, maybe - CS now doesn't reset weapon skill CDs, but has normal cooldown and still does the rest of potentially-defensive stuff you can do with it (even though we all know that once you're focused - you're dead, so the whole "revert your HP" thing very rarely saves your hide).

    So your critique got me thinking about how could shatters be made truly different and embrace the theme more now and it took me about 10 minutes to awkwardly come up with that. Yet we get a "Mind Wrack but worse 90% of the time".

  • My oppinion. I dont play pvp or wvw. In any part of pve,chrono is great.not overpowerd as before but still ok.

  • kraai.7265kraai.7265 Member ✭✭✭

    guys forget it, as if anet even cares, they screwed up, but they are so pride they won't admit it in a hundred years, either that or they did it to push hot players to buy pof if they havn't already, they won't answer you, or bring chrono back, or make anything usefull on regard of pvp and wvw, don't even waste your time

    right now to me we who love pvp have 2 paths
    1. if we are lucky enough to have 1 of our builds in meta, and still like the game, play that, enjoy it as long as you can, shut up and take it as a man
    2. go and look for other game

    and i'm not beeing mean to you guys, it's just i spent so much time doing post after post giving feedback demanding changes, asking for insights etc, yet all i got as a customer is silent treatment and the infamous "coming soon" indirect response, they don't care about us anymore, or about quality of product, all they want is to cash in all they can and put gw2 into maintenance mode

    think about it, wvw and pvp subsections have no respones whatsoever from devs, yet when someone asks something about the gem store, devs fight for beeing the first ones to answer, official forums on regard of pvp an wvw are completely silent from anet side, yet you go into reddit and in the pve and gem store related section they have tons of respones...

  • Vincenzo.3145Vincenzo.3145 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

    utter removal of elite spec and start over.
    chronophantasma is toxic.
    csplit is toxic, remove and start over.

    How about the utter removal of every skill in the game so everything can be replaced with a stick? Because it seems like all people can do is complain about things they can't deal with and call them "toxic" which is how we and some other specs got neutered so unnecessarily in the first place.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vincenzo.3145 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

    utter removal of elite spec and start over.
    chronophantasma is toxic.
    csplit is toxic, remove and start over.

    How about the utter removal of every skill in the game so everything can be replaced with a stick? Because it seems like all people can do is complain about things they can't deal with and call them "toxic" which is how we and some other specs got neutered so unnecessarily in the first place.

    im preety sure neutering chrono over the years was 100% needed, you simply cant introduce trait that makes some abilities twice as strong ( chronophantasma ) then add another that resets all cooldowns, making you use your abilities again. then phantasms hit 4 times, instead of one. Partly becouse of that, we can NOT have good phantasms, ever. if you add good damage dealing phantasm that would be fair and balanced for mirage/mesmer, it would be utterly broken for chrono that gets to use it 4 times over.

  • Ansau.7326Ansau.7326 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Gogdarth.6741 said:

    I mean, exactly. It'll be easier to answer if we'll hear something at all.

    Well yes. But as yelling into the void seems to be the only solution. What would you propose for Chrono if IP could not return?

    utter removal of elite spec and start over.
    chronophantasma is toxic.
    csplit is toxic, remove and start over.

    So the topic is meeting them halfway. Not burn it all down.

    The problem is the halfway meeting doesn't solve anything. IP not being base for Chrono is a core design flaw, and any discussion with such a bad design as a base will be futile.
    As an example, it doesn't matter how many sides you want your wheels to have. As long as they are not circle, they will be bad wheels.

    RIP Chrono 10/2015-7/2019

  • @Ansau.7326 said:
    ... IP not being base for Chrono is a core design flaw, and any discussion with such a bad design as a base will be futile.....

    I'm fairly new to mesmer and am enjoying Mirage, but I wanted to play around w/chrono too. I'm confused about the discussions re Illusionary Persona. The wiki says "This trait is now baseline and has been removed from the game", but the above quote and other posts seem to indicate that it is in fact not baseline (i.e., included by default), but instead removed entirely. Can someone clarify for me?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    ... IP not being base for Chrono is a core design flaw, and any discussion with such a bad design as a base will be futile.....

    I'm fairly new to mesmer and am enjoying Mirage, but I wanted to play around w/chrono too. I'm confused about the discussions re Illusionary Persona. The wiki says "This trait is now baseline and has been removed from the game", but the above quote and other posts seem to indicate that it is in fact not baseline (i.e., included by default), but instead removed entirely. Can someone clarify for me?

    it was made baseline for every type of mesmer becouse playing without it was clunky and unfun. then they forgot why it was baseline and removed it from chrono.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    ... IP not being base for Chrono is a core design flaw, and any discussion with such a bad design as a base will be futile.....

    I'm fairly new to mesmer and am enjoying Mirage, but I wanted to play around w/chrono too. I'm confused about the discussions re Illusionary Persona. The wiki says "This trait is now baseline and has been removed from the game", but the above quote and other posts seem to indicate that it is in fact not baseline (i.e., included by default), but instead removed entirely. Can someone clarify for me?

    im fairly new too to Mesmer not sure if core Mesmer is the go to or chrono for open world pve.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Axl.8924 said:

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    ... IP not being base for Chrono is a core design flaw, and any discussion with such a bad design as a base will be futile.....

    I'm fairly new to mesmer and am enjoying Mirage, but I wanted to play around w/chrono too. I'm confused about the discussions re Illusionary Persona. The wiki says "This trait is now baseline and has been removed from the game", but the above quote and other posts seem to indicate that it is in fact not baseline (i.e., included by default), but instead removed entirely. Can someone clarify for me?

    im fairly new too to Mesmer not sure if core Mesmer is the go to or chrono for open world pve.

    For OWPVE I'm really happy with Lord Hizen's condi mirage:
    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJAWWn0nBtph1oBGpBMMjFcjqMAatfxcBChRyf9j/6H-jxxHABmpLAgLBAtPBAX2f4JlgDq+DRK/CAcAs7up7uB2d3d3d3dru7u7u7u7u7u7ulCoK9WA-e
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI7z8e92kLI

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't playing with worse shatters trade-off enough?
    Just give back IP.

    The degenerate

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    ... IP not being base for Chrono is a core design flaw, and any discussion with such a bad design as a base will be futile.....

    I'm fairly new to mesmer and am enjoying Mirage, but I wanted to play around w/chrono too. I'm confused about the discussions re Illusionary Persona. The wiki says "This trait is now baseline and has been removed from the game", but the above quote and other posts seem to indicate that it is in fact not baseline (i.e., included by default), but instead removed entirely. Can someone clarify for me?

    im fairly new too to Mesmer not sure if core Mesmer is the go to or chrono for open world pve.

    For OWPVE I'm really happy with Lord Hizen's condi mirage:
    http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJAWWn0nBtph1oBGpBMMjFcjqMAatfxcBChRyf9j/6H-jxxHABmpLAgLBAtPBAX2f4JlgDq+DRK/CAcAs7up7uB2d3d3d3dru7u7u7u7u7u7ulCoK9WA-e
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI7z8e92kLI

    I don-t have mirage I don-t have pof yet I can only access either hot or core for Mesmer.

    I really hope that core is viable.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • @Axl.8924 said:
    I don-t have mirage I don-t have pof yet I can only access either hot or core for Mesmer.

    I really hope that core is viable.

    Seems to be viable :)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiYTP2zsDZA

  • I mained chrono. After the latest change I will never play it again. It’s dead. Useless.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I don-t have mirage I don-t have pof yet I can only access either hot or core for Mesmer.

    I really hope that core is viable.

    Seems to be viable :)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiYTP2zsDZA

    its like deadeye but less tanky, less stealth, less mobility, and less damage, less range.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ok thank you il have to try that out in pve.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

    I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
    f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

    also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

    I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
    f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

    also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

    Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

    To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

    The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
    Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

    That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

    Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
    if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

    I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
    f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

    also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

    Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

    To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

    The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
    Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

    That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

    Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
    if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

    f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?
    and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

    I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
    f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

    also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

    Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

    To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

    The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
    Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

    That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

    Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
    if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

    f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?
    and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

    LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.

    People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

    People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    • mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
    • You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.

    Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.

    I really dont know what else to tell you.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

    I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
    f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

    also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

    Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

    To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

    The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
    Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

    That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

    Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
    if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

    f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?
    and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

    LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.

    People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

    People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    • mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
    • You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.

    Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.

    I really dont know what else to tell you.

    Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.
    You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses".
    SPB that loses 1 adrenaline bar but in return he only uses 1 bar for skills always making spaming burst easy, on top of boonrip,sustain, extra evade/block, cc, and immense damage buffs.

    and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

    guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.
    since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this

    "anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec" -> your words.
    give me trade off for every single elite spec.
    start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    What it should have as trade offs.

    • no distortion
    • no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones

    What should be returned

    • power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones

    done.
    mirage should have a similar ^ to this also

    I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
    f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.

    also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp

    Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.

    To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.

    The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
    Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4

    That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.

    Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
    if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.

    f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?
    and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.

    LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.

    People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

    People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    • mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
    • You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.

    Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.

    I really dont know what else to tell you.

    Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.

    This is being passive agressive.

    You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses".

    This is not eve related trade offs deal with the profession mechanic not specificly key traits you thoughts are miss placed here

    SPB that loses 1 adrenaline bar but in return he only uses 1 bar for skills always making spaming burst easy, on top of boonrip,sustain, extra evade/block, cc, and immense damage buffs.

    Here you actually get it right to an extent
    This makes a difference when trying to trigger other traits Berserker power, Adrenal heal, Cleansing IRE, that you could generally get max stacks for using all three bars it now limits you to gaining 1 stack at a time
    This is kind of a big deal.

    As far as using burst you call it spammy but rally that changes nothing the cooldowns dont change on burst from core to spell breaker.
    I dont see how boon strip is relevant here

    and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

    Guardian at its core is fine
    Only firebrand is over-performing and thats the only point where I will some what agree with you.

    Everyone else has had far more nerfs trust me.
    Most of mesmers nerfs are also often targeted in wrong areas on sometimes what seems to be on purpose. Such as nerfing the power strike damage on a weapon where its power strikes are already weak because its a condition weapon instead of balancing its condition. This is not a nerf when you use that weapon for condition anyways. It sounds like a nerf on paper when it realistically makes no difference.

    An example of mesmer being late to balance.
    Scepter on mesmer got nerfed "its trash now" is what everyone said when confusing images got balanced (Despite people still using it heavily to this day lol)
    Lets not forget necro secepter was similar in regards to having high power striking damage on a condition weapon which was promptly nerfed loooooong ago. (As i said mesmer is late to the party)

    guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

    First of all trade offs are never related to the traitlines like that they are related to generally the profession mechanic aka the f1 -f5 buttons.
    Mesmer f1 -f4 > Chrono pre patch same f1 - f4 + f5 with literally no changes
    In other words there is no trade off

    As i said before i can agree that the removal of some shatters requiring clones such as the f1 -f3 those should not require you to have clones to use imo (you will prob skip right over this in your reply)

    since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this

    alright

    "anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec" -> your words.
    give me trade off for every single elite spec.
    start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

    Warrior

    Spellbreaker - You are locked to lvl 1 burst meaning all of your burst are permanently weaker and you cannot stack burst traits as rapidly
    Berserker - You can no longer use burst outside of berserker rage Berserker rage requires you to store 30 points or full adrenaline . All burst in berserker rage are level 1 burst

    Guardian

    Firebrand - Your instant cast virtues are replaced with tomes that hold powerful skills You no longer have the ability to use weapon skills while using tomes and all skills have cast times (this is a bit over tuned though as i said i agree that firebrand is currently over tuned and can be toned down a good bit.)
    Dragon Hunter - Your instant cast virtues are replaced with new skills. They are more powerful but do have activation times and depending on the situation less effective than the core virtues. Spear of justice for example is often dodged due to its cast time and obvious tell animation.

    Do note as a mesmer player (i assume) who loves the idea of instant cast shatters with 0 clones you should under stand the value of how strong the "F skills" can be when they are able to be used as instant cast.

    Necromancer

    Reaper - Shroud is now locked to melee range and life force cost is increased lowering the defense of the shroud mechanic while increasing its offensive power in melee only.
    Scourge - You no longer have a shroud at all and shade skills consume life force directly. If a shade is summoned skills do not work around you.

    Ranger

    Druid - You pet has decreased stats compared to normal (this one is a bit boring to me.) I would have rather seen them lose the pet all together for more supportive nature / celestial skills on the profession bar.
    Soul Beast - Like mirage lacks a real trade off imo. I would like to see them locked to 1 pet at any given time which allows them to focus the bond with that pet that they merge with.

    Mesmer

    Chronomancer - Distortion becomes Continuum split. Your shatters are now unique and require clones to activate (i feel this was too much.) Just the replacement of distortion and making it so that it alone only would require a clone would have been enough.
    Mirage - You no longer roll when you dodge??? (see how this gose off the "f skill path" unlike everyone else) As far as F skills nothing changes. Aside from not being interrupted and rolling when you dodge its pure gain and no loss. when it comes to the profession mechanic (similar to soul beast)

    Revenant

    Herald - Ancient Echo is replaced with Facet of Chaos (this was not always the case though) Granted rev was released as a partly unfinished class and has slowly been getting fixed up to standard it still has a long way to go. Still the trade off is there.
    Renegade - Ancient Eco is replaced with "Citadel Orders" granting new skills

    In other words they give up the option for instant bonus effects and energy restoration for new skills that dont produce any energy restoration if anything it simply increases the energy drain for using them.

    Elementalist

    Tempest - is still more of a free upgrade at the moment but if you are really going to complain about it be my guest. Its trade offs really don't show until after they have already used the benefit which is their overloads being locked out of that element for some time should they switch from it. Unlike the other classes there is no upfront trade off.
    Weaver - Any time you change attuenments all elements receive a short cooldown period meaning you can no longer rapidly switch between elements. You can no longer attune to a single element without attuning twice.

    Engineer

    Scrapper - Function Gyro now always replaces your elite tool-belt skill which can no longer be changed based on your elite utility.
    Holosmith - Photon forge now always replaces your elite tool-belt skill which can no longer be changed based on your elite utility. (holo could have a bit more of a trade off in my personal opinion but still its a change on the f skill bar so its technically correct when it comes to the standard.)

    Thief

    Daredevil - Steal is replaced with swipe which has half the range of steal but is unblockable. This forces the theif to get closer before initiating steal. 600 range is very short compared to 1200. The unblockable bonus does not matter for most pve content and does not apply to roughly over half the professions in the game its not often specifically saved just to get past a block.
    Deadeye - Instant Steal is replaced with deadeye's mark which has a cast time. You also can not steal the same common skills that you normally would steal under base thief and daredevil.

    Closing

    Notice how almost every single profession mechanic when it comes to trade offs are tied to the F skill bar and the skills on it.
    The only current classes that totally ignore a loss for pure gain right now are Mirage which has literally 0 change from core to the elite and Soul Beast which has all gain. Firebrand does make a trade off but the values are not balanced properly with whats traded for whats which is a fair argument.

    I dont hate mesmer as a class but i do hate how its often over looked for proper balance. Its unique (i actually love the idea of chronomancer personally granted it could be better than what it is now) how ever i dont like ignorance and pretending something is fine when there are plenty of arguments that suggest the opposite from a vast number of people.

    I dont think you understand trade offs so i have done as you have asked of me and labeled each profession and its elites with trade offs and how they are targeted.
    Do i think all trade offs are balanced and justified? No i dont, currently i think some of them are too harsh (scourge/ chronomancer) while others are far too light (firebrand / Holo). So i hope you can understand why i said the things I did and that you can possibly speak with less passive aggressive/frustrated tone so that we can have a conversation.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 first of all, no matter what you nerf and why, but nerf is a nerf.
    if you take FULL condi attack that deals 20% power, and 80% condi, and nerf power damage of the attack by 50%, it still makes the weapon deal 10% damage. Mesmer gets bad nerfs, time and time again, it constantly chips at EVERY build you would like to make.
    food for thought, full power chrono deals about 5% of its damage with bleed on crit trait, so if you nerf that one you punish power builds too, what a suprise.

    as for tradeoffs, they should be balanced around what you gain.
    since i also play warrior ill compare spellbreaker to mirage.

    Mirage gains ( in pvp )
    -20% condi duration. ( survi )
    ¬¬5 -10% vigor uptime ( useless )
    4s reg on dodge. ( survi )
    ambush for mesmer and clones ( damage )
    capibility to use axe. ( ?? )
    using falso oasis ( OP healing skill in my opinion ) ( survi )
    dodging while CC, or during casting. ( survi )

    what spb gets.
    better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)
    full counter -> extra evade/block with 1,5s daze, low cd, 12s. ( survi,damage,cc )
    7% crit damage, 14 on boonless ( 14 never happens ) (damage)
    boon remove on CC ( utility )
    damage on boon removal ( damage )
    magebane teather ( might,reveal,heal,CC,damage bonus )
    burst refersh on fullcounter, it plays into 1 bar usage. 45 power/fero per stack. due to this trait you can dagger f1 -> remove boons, fullcounter dagger f1 again.
    ( this gives damage,utility,sustain,mobility )

    you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.
    example is tethers pulsing might is fine, but due to other traits pulsing might heals.
    extra bursts from spb are fine, but due to other traints it also heals and removes boons. END RESULT is what matters.

    clear bias has been show in your post, like deardevil ( -600 steal range ) big tradeoff, when i Play thief i dont even notice it.
    meanwhile you want to remove the only defensive cooldown. and you know whats scary? that I see developers actually going along with it.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    Not wrong.

    • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)
      > People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    Also not wrong.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.
    You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses"

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake?
    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake?
    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst.
    -Daredevil cant 1200 range steal you anymore, which means they have to be closer to you constantly to do damage. Why is that fake?
    -Druid loses pet damage for its healing factor. Why is that fake?
    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake?

    Most of the other classes so far have been given clear balances so there are detriments to playing them. Chrono is not the only class suffering this. Chronomancer and Mirage are close to last to the party regarding this tradeoff approach. You can argue that the tradeoff is too much for Chrono if you want; that is up for debate, but if anything Mesmer and its derivatives have escaped any kind of meaningful balancing that affects their rotational dominance for a very long time.

    and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

    Firebrand is overperforming. So is condi mirage. So is holosmith. So is spellbreaker, especially with the new tactics rework. Those are problems that need to be fixed. That doesnt mean chronomancer, or mesmer in general, for that matter, should escape the same kind of balancing mindset.

    guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

    Every profession has already argued this before, and yet when this was piloted we saw soulbeasts, berserkers, scrappers, firebrands, etc overperforming without that "necessary" third traitline. This arguing point isnt real.

    since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this
    start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

    Again, Mesmer is late to the party concerning nerfs. Ever since Mirage has been implemented into the game, the condition oriented version of it has been absolutely nightmarish for anything that is not able to stealth or churn out perpetual cleansing (never minding the fact that, while this was happening, mirage mains were trying to call for nerfs to cleanse and consume plasma, the only things that were not being steamrolled by them.)

    I understand your frustration with chronomancer, but mesmer mains aren't the only classes suffering, and implying that you are is shortsighted, because Chronobunker was omegabusted just this year and doing so much it was causing video culling issues on its own, Condi Mirage remains omegabusted, and as was shown above in the youtube video core Mesmer still can perform very well in pvp.

    Some of these classes have core professions that cant even step into PVP without being deleted.
    And again, there sure are other problems in PVP. Condi mirage is the most oppressive of those problems right now though.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    Not wrong.

    • anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)
      > People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

    Also not wrong.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.
    You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses"

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake?
    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake?
    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst.
    -Daredevil cant 1200 range steal you anymore, which means they have to be closer to you constantly to do damage. Why is that fake?
    -Druid loses pet damage for its healing factor. Why is that fake?
    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake?

    Most of the other classes so far have been given clear balances so there are detriments to playing them. Chrono is not the only class suffering this. Chronomancer and Mirage are close to last to the party regarding this tradeoff approach. You can argue that the tradeoff is too much for Chrono if you want; that is up for debate, but if anything Mesmer and its derivatives have escaped any kind of meaningful balancing that affects their rotational dominance for a very long time.

    and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

    Firebrand is overperforming. So is condi mirage. So is spellbreaker, especially with the new tactics rework. Those are problems that need to be fixed.

    guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

    Every profession has already argued this before, and yet when this was piloted we saw soulbeasts, berserkers, scrappers, firebrands, etc overperforming without that "necessary" third traitline. This arguing point isnt real.

    since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this
    start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

    Again, Mesmer is late to the party concerning nerfs. Ever since Mirage has been implemented into the game, the condition oriented version of it has been absolutely nightmarish for anything that is not able to stealth or churn out perpetual cleansing (never minding the fact that, while this was happening, mirage mains were trying to call for nerfs to cleanse and consume plasma, the only things that were not being steamrolled by them.)

    I understand your frustration with chronomancer, but mesmer mains aren't the only classes suffering, and implying that you are is shortsighted, because Chronobunker was omegabusted just this year and doing so much it was causing video culling issues on its own, Condi Mirage **remains ** omegabusted, and as was shown above in the youtube video core Mesmer still can perform very well in pvp.

    Some of these classes have core professions that cant even step into PVP without being deleted.

    im not sure if you are trolling or not. its mindboggling actually.
    allof these "traidoffs" dont remove ANYTHING.
    the only onse that matter are druids damage reduction on pet
    and chrono losing its most important cooldown.
    some of the things you wrote.

    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.
    THE ONLY TIME its disadvantage is when you DIE before you generate missing hp throught barrier. meaning you need to be 1shot. people dont play scrapper beccouse holo is stronger.

    people on the forum remind me of the ranger I fought not too long ago, had to whack him nonstop for 60s, landing everything throught condiclears and signets, tracking him in stealth with seeking axes, evading his attack. when I kill him, OMG broken yadda yadda.

    then next fight, pet hits me twicce, he hits me with worldly impact, and im dead. its fine for his pet to take 60% of my hp when he hided behind wall and then take 40% of my hp with 4s cd ability, but if I hit him 50 times in a row and down him its worong.

    most core is just plain bad, and mesmer is no different, the only core i have seen in plat was me ( trolling with 1shot build to test it out )
    some brave core engi much respect to you dude p2w sorry for focusing you, dont hate me :/ <-- i see him alot
    and core thief.
    core warrior.
    core guard.
    thats it.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    im allergic to kitten is what i am.
    I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.
    as it stands its utterly unplayable in pvp and wvw, i REALLY tried, trust me

    what I think ( personally ) and most people wont agree. is that chrono should be scrapped.
    chronophantasma ruins balance, I really like f5 but its a toxic ability, saw it in pvp where i could compleatly swing 1v2 fight where

    at this point returning dry f1,f2,f3 doesnt change how pvp/wvw works. its just a buff for raids. where chrono is good anyways.
    it makes it stronger in a place it doesnt need to be any stronger, and doesnt change its weakness in a place its weak.
    the ONLY thing that I can see coming out of this change is some gimmicky 1shot chrono, ( i actually managed to land 24k burst combo with it in pvp ) I actually dont want to see this cancer ever.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

    ? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

    The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

    ? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

    ? see below for my response to that.

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

    ? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    what spb gets.
    better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)
    you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

    Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits. Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
    I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

    Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    im allergic to kitten is what i am.
    I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.

    Thats why there needs to be well structured conversation.
    Devs dont pay attention to the cat comments. My guess would be that they are also allergic to it. ;)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

    ? Spinal shivers?

    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

    ? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal.

    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

    ? see below for my response to that.

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

    ? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    what spb gets.
    better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)
    you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

    Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits.
    I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

    Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

    REAPER -> Ghastly claws 8s cd, hits for 5-10k
    Spinal shivers 20s cd, hits for 5-8k
    executioners scythe -> record hit i recived was 19,2k, I would say the average is about 10k? against mesmer at least.
    I am not saying reaper stays at range and booms people, but standing behind wall, peaking for 1/4s to deal 5-10k dmg is a thing they do.

    BERSERKER
    head butt.

    SCRAPPER
    its not about playing passively, its about the fact that the only time its a tradeoff, is when scraper is 1shot/bursted down from full HP. I bet it doesnt feel good does it ?
    think about how much hp you lose due to that vitality, and then think how much damage you need to deal to gain it as barrier. and consider how hard/easy it is to do.
    if you can throw 1 aoe into the bunch of clones and get 5k barrier then its not much of a tradeoff is it ?

    SPB
    you get extra sustain.
    core warrior uses all bars to use burst skill. spb can sit on 2, use arcing slice -> fullcounter -> gain adrenaline passively from traits -> arcing slice ( recharged from FC ).
    core cant do that. core doesnt recharge bursts and core doesnt get to have 2 of them on one weapon set. if as SPB you use that trait tht gives adrenaline and resistance, i had games where i legit dager f1 -> FC -> dagger f1 -> shield 4 -> gs f1.
    burst burst burst, stun, burst.

    I have played mesmer ( core, chrono,mirage ) both sustained power/condi/bunkers/1shot of any kind.
    I have played core warrior/spb/berserker, both anticondi,full berk meme and meta spb.
    I have played thief ( hybrid and condi ) and some staff/staff monkey trolling builds.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    im allergic to kitten is what i am.
    I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.

    Thats why there needs to be well structured conversation.
    Devs dont pay attention to the cat comments. My guess would be that they are also allergic to it. ;)

    its literarly their job to read throught our stupid comments, mould it with their ideas and give us something acceptable.
    so far they gutted chrono, and next patch instead of trying to fix it they just kicked it some more.
    they even gave us party quickness of shatter -> i wouldnt be suprised if that made some sort of full dps power chrono cancer perma quickness for entire party build that makes firebrand not welcome into raids, so all they did is kept it bad in pvp/wvw and made some changes for raids where its used anyways.
    wasted developement time.

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

    ? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

    The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

    ? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

    ? see below for my response to that.

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

    ? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    what spb gets.
    better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)
    you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

    Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits. Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
    I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

    Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

    When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

    ? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

    The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

    ? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

    ? see below for my response to that.

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

    ? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    what spb gets.
    better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)
    you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

    Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits. Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
    I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

    Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

    When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range? while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

    ? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

    The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

    -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and gains LOW cooldown nuke that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

    ? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

    -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

    ? see below for my response to that.

    -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

    ? That is what I said. You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    what spb gets.
    better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)
    you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

    Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits. Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.
    I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

    Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

    When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

    And its toolbelt being replaced by function gyro. Let's not forget that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    REAPER -> Ghastly claws 8s cd, hits for 5-10k
    Spinal shivers 20s cd, hits for 5-8k
    executioners scythe -> record hit i recived was 19,2k, I would say the average is about 10k? against mesmer at least.
    I am not saying reaper stays at range and booms people, but standing behind wall, peaking for 1/4s to deal 5-10k dmg is a thing they do.

    I will note your last comment. I'm not going to argue about the damage factors of Ghastly, spinal and Exec Scythe because those skills have incredibly long cast times and telegraphs. They can be easily interrupted or avoided and the fact that they do high damage if they complete over their 1-1.25 second cast times doesnt offset:

    *The reaper is close range.
    *The reaper is vulnerable to cc.

    The reaper standing behind a wall to make sure those attacks hit are cleverly compensating for that drawback by using the terrain, which is skillful. I have no issue with that.

    BERSERKER
    head butt.

    Same for this. 400 range and high visibility.
    I'm not going to argue about the damage factors of Headbutt because the skill has an incredibly long cast time and telegraph. It can be easily interrupted or avoided and the fact that it does high damage if it connects doesnt offset the added fragility in berserk mode or the fact that its bursts still count as level 1 internally.
    And if it doesnt connect the warrior has no adrenaline and wont have an elite for 25 seconds.

    SCRAPPER
    its not about playing passively, its about the fact that the only time its a tradeoff, is when scraper is 1shot/bursted down from full HP. I bet it doesnt feel good does it ?
    think about how much hp you lose due to that vitality, and then think how much damage you need to deal to gain it as barrier. and consider how hard/easy it is to do.
    if you can throw 1 aoe into the bunch of clones and get 5k barrier then its not much of a tradeoff is it ?

    If the barrier gain or vitality deficit needs to be adjusted, fine; but I am not agreeing that the situation of throwing an AOE into a bunch of clones and getting 5k barrier immediately is not its gain surpassing its deficit. That is a unique interaction with mesmer and classes that spawn lots of adds.

    Also as above keep in mind their toolbelt is also hard replaced.

    SPB
    you get extra sustain.
    core warrior uses all bars to use burst skill. spb can sit on 2, use arcing slice -> fullcounter -> gain adrenaline passively from traits -> arcing slice ( recharged from FC ).
    core cant do that. core doesnt recharge bursts and core doesnt get to have 2 of them on one weapon set. if as SPB you use that trait tht gives adrenaline and resistance, i had games where i legit dager f1 -> FC -> dagger f1 -> shield 4 -> gs f1.
    burst burst burst, stun, burst.

    You have to hit full counter for that chain to work.

    There are drawbacks to each of those classes that lead them to underperform in specific avenues in exchange for performing well if specific, high telegraphed skills hit or certain conditions are met. Chrono isn't the only one being held to that standard. Whether you want to argue whether that is more, or less than it should is up to you.

    Some classes are still overperforming, though, especially Condition Mirage, since in exchange for a different dodge animation they get more damage output, less damage vulnerability, The ability to evade whenever they want as long as they have endurance, and target shuffling on top of their access to their core utilities. Before the patch that made mirage cloak last as long as a regular dodge animation, mirage cloak actually lasted longer. It was even more of a direct upgrade than it is now.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.

    I am in agreement with this. I would go so far as to say that altering playstyle means, Ideally, that the user is benefited in exchange for exposing exploitable weaknesses and managing to cover them with their own play, rather than traits or synergies covering that weakness on their own.

    There are a few classes that need to be held to that razor yet. some more than once. I am in no way claiming that spellbreaker, firebrand, holo are as yet balanced. I am just concerned when classes that should be balanced -do- get balanced, and people suddenly appear to think that only their main is prey to the error of the balancing team ad infinitum.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

    And its toolbelt being replaced by function gyro. Let's not forget that.

    And they gain function gyro. It's not like Holo vs Firebrand where the former's kit is not only replacing a skill, it is also restricting access to the other F skills.

    ...
    Some classes are still overperforming, though, especially Condition Mirage, since in exchange for a different dodge animation they get more damage output, less damage vulnerability, The ability to evade whenever they want as long as they have endurance, and target shuffling on top of their access to their core utilities.

    Compare the effect of chill on a mirage to chrono or core and you'll find its not just a different dodge animation. Your argument is no different than people who want Daredevil to only have two bars of endurance. I don't think you are considering different game modes. And that is what got us in this mess to begin with.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    We cant really argue the loss of one traitline or another because this is something that all elite specs are subject to should to take any one of them on any profession.
    Thats the standard that makes the trait portion balanced ever profession and elite spec is held to the rule of only 2 core lines should you take an elite one.

    This leaves play styles which comes down to personal taste and should not be a factor in this and the profession mechanic itself which has already been listed by factual evidence as of the game to this day proving that mirage for example has no loss there compared to its core variation that is base mesmer.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    • For tempest, mirage and soulbeast where the benefit and drawback happen simultaneously there is no required change to f skills. They can play identically to core if they wish.
    • For daredevil and druid where something is always in addition to core they have their core mechanic (steal and pet) reduced while retaining its functionally (shadowstep and AI)
    • For holosmith the drawback is dependent on how much you abuse the fact you gained 5 skills for 1 while retaining all your other f skills
    • For scrapper, who got to keep the majority of their skills at all times, the drawback is changing how they approach survivability.

    Chrono got the scrapper treatment. Swapping only one f skill wasn't enough. Both also had more defensive abilities, and the latter had significantly higher power damage than core. So instead of losing vitality and gaining conditional barrier, chrono lost self-shatter/power damage and kept conditional reduced cooldown/high power traits. Survivability/power damage was replaced with survivability/power damage.

    The problem is in the execution. A scrapper doesn't have to constantly use its f-skills, or specific utilities/traits. It simply attacks through whatever method it sees fit and reduces its tradeoff.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Some of those being a trade off are a huge stretch.
    Still you is chrono the only one with triple trade off? You lose IP, you lose distortion, your shatters become garbage.

    As for mirage, you no longer dodge, your dodge movement even forwards is less than a normal dodge. Your auto-attack is replaced by a longer, easier to interrupt, trash skill that is solely carried by IH.
    All your traitline is trash except for IH.

    See I can invent trade-offs too!

    The degenerate

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    No i dont agree that everything needs to be crippling but thats where difference of opinions comes into play. I if you think the temporary loss of the pet AI is the loss soul beast takes then i would say the trade off is far too light when weighed against many other professions. Tempest is also one of the rare examples that does not follow the flow of everyone else and its not without saying that there is a possibility that it could get changed too.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill
    Daredevil loses steal for swipe
    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)
    Druids pets lose some stats (which honestly just seems like a lazy quick change i hope they revisit it with a real mechanic at some point)
    Soul beast by your personal opinion loses the pet AI but only when merged for a short period of time so im not so sure it really is weighted properly just like firebrand and holo are likely not weighted heavy enough in terms of the trade for the gain.

    • For tempest, mirage and soulbeast where the benefit and drawback happen simultaneously there is no required change to f skills. They can play identically to core if they wish.

    Incorrect tempest technically still has a core mechanic that effects the f skill bar if its not up front
    Soul beast is debatable based on what you said earlier
    Mirage gets no pass sorry. Facts are facts nothing on the profession bar changes in anyway.

    • For daredevil and druid where something is always in addition to core they have their core mechanic (steal and pet) reduced while retaining its functionally (shadowstep and AI)

    This makes a major difference having 1200 range initiation tool and a 600 range one is massive. Many classes cannot hit a target beyond 600-900 range.

    • For holosmith the drawback is dependent on how much you abuse the fact you gained 5 skills for 1 while retaining all your other f skills

    Once again i said i think this is too light of a trade off i never said all of them were balanced but all professions should have one.

    • For scrapper, who got to keep the majority of their skills at all times, the drawback is changing how they approach survivability.

    This is not true.

    Chrono got the scrapper treatment. Swapping only one f skill wasn't enough. Both also had more defensive abilities, and the latter had significantly higher power damage than core. So instead of losing vitality and gaining conditional barrier, chrono lost self-shatter/power damage and kept conditional reduced cooldown/high power traits. Survivability/power damage was replaced with survivability/power damage.

    The problem is in the execution. A scrapper doesn't have to constantly use its f-skills, or specific utilities/traits. It simply attacks through whatever method it sees fit and reduces its tradeoff.

    What kind of nonsense is this? Ive never not seen a engi of any kind thats not using its F-skills.

    Also why do we keep comparing one of the weakest specs in the entire game to what ideally was one of the strongest?
    That seems a bit improper to me that you roughly going "well scrapper this and that" when scrapper has been pretty invalid for the longest time when compared to chrono was has been relevant up till its recent change.
    Even now chrono still has a high place in pve vs scrapper which is still not viable for most situations. It has no identity.

    Ill move back to the main topic which was chrono trade offs and meeting in the middle keep in mind when anet thinks trade offs they think profession bar those f skills.
    you can talk about all the gains in other areas you like but something on that bar still needs to change thats the standard by general means.