Can we be met halfway on quality of life for Chrono? What playstyle/tradeoff do people want? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we be met halfway on quality of life for Chrono? What playstyle/tradeoff do people want?

2

Comments

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    I got a question for you: How is having that damage bonus for warriors to enemy players with barriers good for the game? this just makes them even more overpowered no? so instead of doing whatever they were doing before they would be doing 50% more damage.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    I got a question for you: How is having that damage bonus for warriors to enemy players with barriers good for the game? this just makes them even more overpowered no? so instead of doing whatever they were doing before they would be doing 50% more damage.

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    I got a question for you: How is having that damage bonus for warriors to enemy players with barriers good for the game? this just makes them even more overpowered no? so instead of doing whatever they were doing before they would be doing 50% more damage.

    Considering Barrier is a new mechanic and there is currently nothing to counter it i think its good for the game. The issue that i have is that trait is that its overkill.
    25% against targets over 90% when a critical single axe 2 causes your hp to tank massively. That part of the trait alone another player is massive. As a damage mod its just a bit too high if you ask me. Especially on core warrior which hits the hardest most constantly more so than the elites.
    As far as bonus damage against foes with barrier goes I was playing with it as tactics, strength, berserker last night in free arena just being silly. quite a few times I downed weavers by throwing an axe which hits them for 8-9k because they have a few hundred points of barrier. I get what anet is trying to do with it and the idea is good the percentage values are just a bit high. Keep in mind this is also on a patch that was focused mainly on wvw changes and combating scourges which a warrior will want to do from ranged with say rifle or bow which generally wont hit as hard. So i cant kinda see why they are so high... but its still a bit "too high"

    Edit: "I have a bad habit of getting off topic but this is for chrono has nothing to do with warrior or any barrier. If you want to talk warrior or barrier we can have the conversation in a proper thread or in pm. But we should focus on the aspects of chrono here."

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    Druids pets lose some stats (which honestly just seems like a lazy quick change i hope they revisit it with a real mechanic at some point)

    Terrible idea. They don't have the technology to fix mechanics.

    Soul beast by your personal opinion loses the pet AI but only when merged for a short period of time so im not so sure it really is weighted properly just like firebrand and holo are likely not weighted heavy enough in terms of the trade for the gain.

    Again. Soulbeast does not always have access to its new skills. And it when it does it loses access to its old.

    • For tempest, mirage and soulbeast where the benefit and drawback happen simultaneously there is no required change to f skills. They can play identically to core if they wish.

    Incorrect tempest technically still has a core mechanic that effects the f skill bar if its not up front

    You don't have to ever overload on tempest.

    Mirage gets no pass sorry. Facts are facts nothing on the profession bar changes in anyway.

    See scrapper below.

    • For daredevil and druid where something is always in addition to core they have their core mechanic (steal and pet) reduced while retaining its functionally (shadowstep and AI)

    This makes a major difference having 1200 range initiation tool and a 600 range one is massive. Many classes cannot hit a target beyond 600-900 range.

    They have other sources of shadowstep. Under your logic it should be replaced entirely. Scourge doesn't get to keep any of the functions of reaper or core.

    • For holosmith the drawback is dependent on how much you abuse the fact you gained 5 skills for 1 while retaining all your other f skills

    Once again i said i think this is too light of a trade off i never said all of them were balanced but all professions should have one.

    They either have 1 less f skill vs Scrapper/core. 1 less and 5 different weapon skills with kit usage impacted. Or no f skills at all. It is perfectly fine.

    • For scrapper, who got to keep the majority of their skills at all times, the drawback is changing how they approach survivability.

    This is not true.

    You said their "f skills" are replaced or affected. Plural. Having only one f skill change means nothing vs necromancer. Either advocate Scrapper get none of its old f skills or admit this standard doesn't exist.

    Chrono got the scrapper treatment. Swapping only one f skill wasn't enough. Both also had more defensive abilities, and the latter had significantly higher power damage than core. So instead of losing vitality and gaining conditional barrier, chrono lost self-shatter/power damage and kept conditional reduced cooldown/high power traits. Survivability/power damage was replaced with survivability/power damage.

    The problem is in the execution. A scrapper doesn't have to constantly use its f-skills, or specific utilities/traits. It simply attacks through whatever method it sees fit and reduces its tradeoff.

    What kind of nonsense is this? Ive never not seen a engi of any kind thats not using its F-skills.

    The scrappers only tradeoff is having to attack. It does not have to use its f skills to attack. It doesn't even have to have f skills that can attack.

    Also why do we keep comparing one of the weakest specs in the entire game to what ideally was one of the strongest?

    Your don't get to proclaim a standard and then say things like scrapper or tempest are fine keeping some of the old but mirage and soulbeast aren't. That isn't what a standard is.

    That seems a bit improper to me that you roughly going "well scrapper this and that" when scrapper has been pretty invalid for the longest time when compared to chrono was has been relevant up till its recent change.
    Even now chrono still has a high place in pve vs scrapper which is still not viable for most situations. It has no identity.

    Either you want all professions to have none of their previous f skills different or you don't. Don't make rules for everyone and then say only some people have to follow them. Or some people only have to follow them partially.

    Ill move back to the main topic which was chrono trade offs and meeting in the middle keep in mind when anet thinks trade offs they think profession bar those f skills.
    you can talk about all the gains in other areas you like but something on that bar still needs to change thats the standard by general means.

    No. Otherwise all profession would get the scourge, deadeye, berserker etc treatment to be fair.

    You wouldn't get to keep old f skills, or have their functionally reduced. Everyone would be different.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.
    you are comparing tradeoff of losing half the range on 1instant teleport to losing the only defensive cooldown on mirage, that compleatly guts several synergies and builds, removes only form of counterplay against several builds, for the sake of it I actually tried to play Mirage without using disort whatsoever, lost 5/6 games, where 1 was a game that was impossible to lose. Autolose every fight against almost any build out there.

    And coming back to chrono topic, I srsl hope wells at the very least will be reworked, having to rely on fractal pugs to stand in them is just not feasible.
    Quickness on shatter for party is somewhat a step in the right direction.

    and as always, expect the worst, and you will NEVER be dissapointed.
    rip chrono

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649
    You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
    The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
    Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones

    Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.

    Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post

    We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
    Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.

    I got a question for you: How is having that damage bonus for warriors to enemy players with barriers good for the game? this just makes them even more overpowered no? so instead of doing whatever they were doing before they would be doing 50% more damage.

    its in a tactics line, so you have to consider what they lose to get it, this trait honestly feels dissapointing and simply made to 1shot from full hp ( if it is even possible, dunno ) and bully scrappers :/

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.

    Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    They lost range and then gained unblockable and endurance. They are still down one by your standards. Please stop.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    What? And if I said even though swipe does not go as far it is just fine? Stop making a double standard.

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    And no person with any mindset takes mirage and doesn't dodge? If the tradeoff for overload is that elementalist has to take a different traitline then that can also be the tradeoff for mirage.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    :# And mirage dodge is less range on a class that has less toughness than thief.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    I'm not blaming other profession. No profession needs more tradeoffs. Stop trying to speak for Anet as what the standard for trade offs are when you are not an employee and mirage is not the only class that keeps most or all its previous f skills. They have never said the change has to come from the f skills. It was you and others that brought other elite specs into this discussion.

    And I'm not calling professions out. I'm pointing our your argument about every profession getting X is incorrect. Scrapper and tempest tradeoffs are fine. So are mirage and soulbeast. I would be pissed as someone who plays necromancer if scrapper didn't have -180 vitality, since they kept 4/5 f skills. Technically 24/27 when you consider how toolbelt works.

    You cannot easily remove 180 vit from Chrono when their toughness is already low. So I am also fine with the shatters being changed. The problem is how they were changed.

    We want to be more like scrapper. Let Chrono just attack to deal with it's tradeoff. Don't destroy its quality of life and force it run slow builds.

  • @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.

    Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.

    But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie?

    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.

    Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.

    But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie?

    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

    hacing disort always last 2,5s instead of 1s-4s depending on clones is a tradeoff, ( nerf to condi buff to power ).
    removing disort is just a nerf, not a tradeoff.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.

    Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.

    But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie?

    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

    hacing disort always last 2,5s instead of 1s-4s depending on clones is a tradeoff, ( nerf to condi buff to power ).
    removing disort is just a nerf, not a tradeoff.

    But is it a midway one? The one that comes up a lot is Chrono should have two max illusions but retain IP. But I don't think they have the technology to do that.

    Maybe just return IP to chrono and work on traits and numerical changes.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @Azure The Heartless.3261 just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
    What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

    You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
    What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

    Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

    Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

    If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

    And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

    So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

    Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

    Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

    A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

    Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

    Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

    the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

    Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

    You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

    Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

    I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
    Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

    In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

    It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

    Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

    By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

    Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

    Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
    Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
    Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

    That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

    I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

    Daredevil loses steal for swipe

    No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

    🤨🤔🧐 With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

    Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

    Go play wvw.

    🤔🤔🤔
    Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
    Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
    The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

    You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

    In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

    Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

    I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

    TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

    if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.

    Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.

    But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie?

    Yes because i never stressed those words. I do think the shatter skills should be changed.
    It would make sense for mirage to have its own unique shatter skills that are different from base mesmer would it not? This does not mean "nerf OP mirage." If you took it that way then it's saying something about how strong you think the spec is self consciously.

    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

    Well i already said the first thing they should do is restore the power to shatter the f1-f3 without clones. That would be a massive step back in the right direction imo.
    There is only 1 reason why i dont think the f4 shatter should be usable without clones and thats due to how strong it is.
    or
    Allow it to be used but reduce its cd for each clone that you shatter with the split shatter skill (not including yourself) For each clone shattered toward it its cd is reduced. This makes it more rewarding to use with clones vs without.
    To be honest this could probably be the case for all chrono shatters but then you have to start looking at cooldown adjustments overall.

    But when i think trade off i think the f skill bar and nothing more. Everything outside of that is pretty much the same case for "almost" every other class.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

    I'm fine with this, but just for closure:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Compare the effect of chill on a mirage to chrono or core and you'll find its not just a different dodge animation. Your argument is no different than people who want Daredevil to only have two bars of endurance. I don't think you are considering different game modes. And that is what got us in this mess to begin with.

    I'm aware of its interaction with chill. The point I am trying to make, however, is that even that interaction is vastly outweighed by the return in damage and sustainability on condition-oriented builds. I don't understand your assertion that it is no different from people requesting Daredevil have an endurance nerf, if you can explain what you meant by that I'd appreciate it.

    If you were implying that I thought Mirage cloak as it stands should be gutted, that is not my opinion. I just think its functionality of "you can dodge while stunned" should be moved to Elusive Mind (and the exhaustion from EM removed or shaved down significantly) to force mirage players to choose between having all of the condi dot damage given by IH also a more brittle stun reaction behavior, and having that transcendent priority dodge in exchange for a damage loss.

    And you're right. I only care about PVP, and to a smaller extent WvW, so I am focused on how class interactions with mirage should be balanced. of course, if a solution can be reached with a skill split, fair enough.

    feel free to reply to this or not. The topic is about Chrono ofc.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

    I'm fine with this, but just for closure:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Compare the effect of chill on a mirage to chrono or core and you'll find its not just a different dodge animation. Your argument is no different than people who want Daredevil to only have two bars of endurance. I don't think you are considering different game modes. And that is what got us in this mess to begin with.

    I'm aware of its interaction with chill. The point I am trying to make, however, is that even that interaction is vastly outweighed by the return in damage and sustainability on condition-oriented builds. I don't understand your assertion that it is no different from people requesting Daredevil have an endurance nerf, if you can explain what you meant by that I'd appreciate it.

    If you were implying that I thought Mirage cloak as it stands should be gutted, that is not my opinion. I just think its functionality of "you can dodge while stunned" should be moved to Elusive Mind (and the exhaustion from EM removed or shaved down significantly) to force mirage players to choose between having all of the condi dot damage given by IH also a more brittle stun reaction behavior, and having that transcendent priority dodge in exchange for a damage loss.

    And you're right. I only care about PVP, and to a smaller extent WvW, so I am focused on how class interactions with mirage should be balanced. of course, if a solution can be reached with a skill split, fair enough.

    feel free to reply to this or not. The topic is about Chrono ofc.

    people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.
    Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.
    keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

    I'm fine with this, but just for closure:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Compare the effect of chill on a mirage to chrono or core and you'll find its not just a different dodge animation. Your argument is no different than people who want Daredevil to only have two bars of endurance. I don't think you are considering different game modes. And that is what got us in this mess to begin with.

    I'm aware of its interaction with chill. The point I am trying to make, however, is that even that interaction is vastly outweighed by the return in damage and sustainability on condition-oriented builds. I don't understand your assertion that it is no different from people requesting Daredevil have an endurance nerf, if you can explain what you meant by that I'd appreciate it.

    If you were implying that I thought Mirage cloak as it stands should be gutted, that is not my opinion. I just think its functionality of "you can dodge while stunned" should be moved to Elusive Mind (and the exhaustion from EM removed or shaved down significantly) to force mirage players to choose between having all of the condi dot damage given by IH also a more brittle stun reaction behavior, and having that transcendent priority dodge in exchange for a damage loss.

    And you're right. I only care about PVP, and to a smaller extent WvW, so I am focused on how class interactions with mirage should be balanced. of course, if a solution can be reached with a skill split, fair enough.

    feel free to reply to this or not. The topic is about Chrono ofc.

    If a Daredevil not being able to move 1200 feet with swipe matters, then so does a Mirage not being able to move 300-600 with 1-2 dodges. If you want to nerf ambushes so their damage is comparable to thief dodges that is one thing. But your current idea is like if Daredevil only got an extra dodge if they took unhindered combatant. Because apparently your dodge has to do non-damage and give you exhaustion to be balanced.

    In PvP no one is telling you to dodge with a group of allies and yelling at you if you don't. And you aren't being bombed with cripple and torment from more than 5 scourges who have shades larger than you can move out of with a single cloak. And regardless of game mode conditions don't stop ticking.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    My oppinion. I dont play pvp or wvw. In any part of pve,chrono is great.not overpowerd as before but still ok.

    Well, that's your lack of understanding then from lack of experience.

    Without IP, a Mesmer in a PvP mode is dead.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20.

    I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20.

    I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports.

    I get what you mean, but mirage, in pve has no place as a power. its just under other specs, thats why its played as a condi. If you use bad build and complain its bad, then its on you. Axe 2 and Axe 3 covers mirage cloak weakness somewhat.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20.

    I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports.

    I get what you mean, but mirage, in pve has no place as a power. its just under other specs, thats why its played as a condi. If you use bad build and complain its bad, then its on you. Axe 2 and Axe 3 covers mirage cloak weakness somewhat.

    That is a terrible argument. If not taking axe is using a bad build they shouldn't have put ambushes on seven weapons. And demeaning people who don't give up an elite to take jaunt is ridiculous. How many other professions, even in raids, give up their core elites? Not to mention not everything in PvE is a raid. You might as well say Chrono and Reaper should lose rewinder and deathly chill since they are obviously power specs.

    If you have to take axe and jaunt to cover the weakness "somewhat" then it is a massive drawback.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20.

    I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports.

    I get what you mean, but mirage, in pve has no place as a power. its just under other specs, thats why its played as a condi. If you use bad build and complain its bad, then its on you. Axe 2 and Axe 3 covers mirage cloak weakness somewhat.

    That is a terrible argument. If not taking axe is using a bad build they shouldn't have put ambushes on seven weapons. And demeaning people who don't give up an elite to take jaunt is ridiculous. How many other professions, even in raids, give up their core elites? Not to mention not everything in PvE is a raid. You might as well say Chrono and Reaper should lose rewinder and deathly chill since they are obviously power specs.

    If you have to take axe and jaunt to cover the weakness "somewhat" then it is a massive drawback.

    yes it is, as It should be, nothing should be given freely right?
    also not saying other weapons are bad, just bad for mirage, and PvE in specific.
    for example in Open world, there isnt much aoe that needs to be dodged so there it doesnt matter all that much, in fractal/raids you play power/support chrono or cmirage. chrono has normal dodge, and cmirage takes axe.
    I do think that every weapon set should have its use, just not for everything, its like making power build with condi weapons and wondering why the damage isnt so good.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    not really, in pve if you are mirage you play axe, so you have axe 3, axe2 ( you can cloak during it and it doesnt get affected by slows ), then you have 3 stacks of jaunt and lower cd on it. its not bad at all in pve. in fact, during a raid boss I evaded 150 times, compared to the next person with 20.

    I think you misunderstand their point if you are responding with take this weapon, this elite, and play condi. Especially when you bring up raids which have dedicated supports.

    I get what you mean, but mirage, in pve has no place as a power. its just under other specs, thats why its played as a condi. If you use bad build and complain its bad, then its on you. Axe 2 and Axe 3 covers mirage cloak weakness somewhat.

    That is a terrible argument. If not taking axe is using a bad build they shouldn't have put ambushes on seven weapons. And demeaning people who don't give up an elite to take jaunt is ridiculous. How many other professions, even in raids, give up their core elites? Not to mention not everything in PvE is a raid. You might as well say Chrono and Reaper should lose rewinder and deathly chill since they are obviously power specs.

    If you have to take axe and jaunt to cover the weakness "somewhat" then it is a massive drawback.

    yes it is, as It should be, nothing should be given freely right?
    also not saying other weapons are bad, just bad for mirage, and PvE in specific.
    for example in Open world, there isnt much aoe that needs to be dodged so there it doesnt matter all that much, in fractal/raids you play power/support chrono or cmirage. chrono has normal dodge, and cmirage takes axe.
    I do think that every weapon set should have its use, just not for everything, its like making power build with condi weapons and wondering why the damage isnt so good.

    I have no idea what you are arguing at this point. Whether you want mirage to be nerfed further or not. But you clearly don't understand what @Hyper Cutter.9376 meant by massive drawback. Every weapon set having a use in every situation has nothing to do their point. A Scrapper can take any power weapon, and soonish any condi weapon, to completely cover their weakness. They can take any elite.

    Bringing back this discussion to Chrono. The dependency on slow needs to be addressed. Yes people should be traiting for slow on a power build. But when they can't maintain dps even when playing a good build outside of raids it is a problem.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2019

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

    in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

    Mesmers have several utilities that can break stuns, and one that grants specifically stability. They just dont take them because mirage cloak, mirage mirrors, and distortion remove the need to slot utilities defensively, with the exception of blink.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.

    Not being able to attack while stunned, even though it uses endurance, isn't a tradeoff for being able to evade while stunned. That argument isn't real. No class can attack while stunned. not having access to an attack because you got cced isn't a drawback particular to any class.

    Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.

    Dont agree with you, regarding pvp. If EM allows you to dodge and break stuns in exchange for damage, that opens up builds for sidenode stalling. They may not be able to kill certain builds, but they also wont be able to die from being pinned down. If IH doesnt allow dodges while stunned, mirages have to slot utilities more defensively or predict attacks to do heavy damage. the damage afforded by IH in its current state should not come with no penalty to an opponent managing to nail you with a cc in the midst of all of the target dropping, while dots are ticking on them.

    This may have implications in pve, but pvp as it stands right now is kittened because condi oriented mirages running IH have very little counterplay.

    I'm going to stop responding to this line because I keep taking Daniel's thread off course and he has a point regarding pve implications, and I am still considering what can be done to chrono that wont make them nightmarish to MU competitively.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

    in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

    Mesmers have several utilities that can break stuns, and one that grants specifically stability. They just dont take them because mirage cloak, mirage mirrors, and distortion remove the need to slot utilities defensively, with the exception of blink.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.

    Not being able to attack while stunned, even though it uses endurance, isn't a tradeoff for being able to evade while stunned. That argument isn't real. No class can attack while stunned. not having access to an attack because you got cced isn't a drawback particular to any class.

    Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.

    Dont agree with you, regarding pvp. If EM allows you to dodge and break stuns in exchange for damage, that opens up builds for sidenode stalling. If IH doesnt allow dodges while stunned, mirages have to slot utilities more defensively or predict attacks to do heavy damage.

    This may have implications in pve, but pvp as it stands right now is kittened because condi oriented mirages running IH have very little counterplay.

    you dont get what I mean, mirage cloak is both defensive AND offensive tool. If you use it while stunnes, you give up offensive part ( ambush )
    Sure I could take stun removing mantra, i wouldnt fear any stuns!, exept that I would die without even eating a stun, wouldnt survive past 1 condi bomb, what other classes have is abilities that do several things, Rampage is insane pressure, mobility and CC immunity. Shake it off covers both CC removeal AND condi cleanse.
    mesmer has to take 2 utilities to do the same thing.

    srsl you remind me of that video Happy something posted, called mirage cancer, while playing warrior, throwing rock that deals 11,1k dmg.
    while dueling this "cancer mirage" he could afford to afk while being whittled down for 13 sec. didnt die, didnt even take any damage. becouse guess what, condi damage sucks.
    when i play thief/warr and decide utilities I dont sacrafice ANYTHING, i have everything I need and pick a cherry on top. mirage is the only one of those 3 that has to sacrifice things.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

    in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

    Mesmers have several utilities that can break stuns, and one that grants specifically stability. They just dont take them because mirage cloak, mirage mirrors, and distortion remove the need to slot utilities defensively, with the exception of blink.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.

    Not being able to attack while stunned, even though it uses endurance, isn't a tradeoff for being able to evade while stunned. That argument isn't real. No class can attack while stunned. not having access to an attack because you got cced isn't a drawback particular to any class.

    Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.

    Dont agree with you, regarding pvp. If EM allows you to dodge and break stuns in exchange for damage, that opens up builds for sidenode stalling. If IH doesnt allow dodges while stunned, mirages have to slot utilities more defensively or predict attacks to do heavy damage.

    This may have implications in pve, but pvp as it stands right now is kittened because condi oriented mirages running IH have very little counterplay.

    you dont get what I mean, mirage cloak is both defensive AND offensive tool. If you use it while stunnes, you give up offensive part ( ambush )
    srsl you remind me of that video Happy something posted, called mirage cancer, while playing warrior, throwing rock that deals 11,1k dmg.
    while dueling this "cancer mirage" he could afford to afk while being whittled down for 13 sec. didnt die, didnt even take any damage. becouse guess what, condi damage sucks.

    I really want to just be misunderstanding the plight of mirage mains, but the matchups I've seen and experienced wouldn't exactly be considered a plight to me.

    Shake it off covers both CC removeal AND condi cleanse.
    mesmer has to take 2 utilities to do the same thing.

    It became that way -because- of mirage. It wasn't like that before.
    Look, I'm pretty tired about yelling into the void about how this is unbalanced. Clearly it will take some careful consideration to fix even if you assume it is such. Tell you what though; add me if you're in NA, lets do a mock fight and then argue further about what is broken and what isn't on the actual game.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2019

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

    in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

    No apologies needed. I would note the person was probably talking about solo open world and not raids. In raids you have people tanking/healing for you. And other classes don't dodge often anyway because of the dps loss. Its more of a concern in solo open world PvE. And majorly a concern in WvW. The problem in in PvE can be addressed using the right skills and weapons. But in WvW you are still beholden to stacking on allies and dodging with them to avoid being covered in condis.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I feel like people massively underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

    I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

    in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

    Mesmers have several utilities that can break stuns, and one that grants specifically stability. They just dont take them because mirage cloak, mirage mirrors, and distortion remove the need to slot utilities defensively, with the exception of blink.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.

    Not being able to attack while stunned, even though it uses endurance, isn't a tradeoff for being able to evade while stunned. That argument isn't real. No class can attack while stunned. not having access to an attack because you got cced isn't a drawback particular to any class.

    Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.

    Dont agree with you, regarding pvp. If EM allows you to dodge and break stuns in exchange for damage, that opens up builds for sidenode stalling. If IH doesnt allow dodges while stunned, mirages have to slot utilities more defensively or predict attacks to do heavy damage.

    This may have implications in pve, but pvp as it stands right now is kittened because condi oriented mirages running IH have very little counterplay.

    you dont get what I mean, mirage cloak is both defensive AND offensive tool. If you use it while stunnes, you give up offensive part ( ambush )
    srsl you remind me of that video Happy something posted, called mirage cancer, while playing warrior, throwing rock that deals 11,1k dmg.
    while dueling this "cancer mirage" he could afford to afk while being whittled down for 13 sec. didnt die, didnt even take any damage. becouse guess what, condi damage sucks.

    I really want to just be misunderstanding the plight of mirage mains, but the matchups I've seen and experienced wouldn't exactly be considered a plight to me.

    I don't consider it a plight in PvP. When you are dueling on a side node I don't see the issue. Especially because Mesmers already excel in 1v1 player and 3 illusions situations. I could see how it might seem like they have no tradeoff. Perhaps more PvP split traits need to occur. But altering the mechanic gamewide is a bad idea.

    Also back to the topic, the effect Mirage's tradeoff has on build diversity is fine-ish in comparison to other classes. Chrono is at a loss. Where a mirage could simply grimace and play condi with staff or axe and Jaunt while spamming evades, a chrono struggles to cover for no IP and poor slow uptime outside of raids.

    They seem to be pushing Chrono as a ranged combo caster, versus Mirage as a more melee and reactionary. Like an ele vs thief. That is fine. But needs more support.

    edit: for example if you want to discourage melee you could keep IP off of F1/F2/F3, but restore it to F4.

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    pre-shatter!

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • I like the new 'seize the moment' trait, was hoping to see another grandmaster trait that gives alacrity.
    This will give us a trade-off playing choice on alacrity or quickness, but not both at same time.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    I actually feel like reading the elementalist forums after the big staff nerfs, no matter what people say, ANet will balance in a way they see it good, listening to the community would show that someone knows more about the game and they dont want this, they like to live in their own little dream of knowing everything. If ANet would just once listen to people, and by this I mean, listen to people who are saying normal things and not just crying cough3 mirage being OP threads per day cough chrono would be still viable together with other killed/dead specs
    They think they can balance something they dont know, its like that I could repair a mechanical clock without knowing how it works.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I actually feel like reading the elementalist forums after the big staff nerfs, no matter what people say, ANet will balance in a way they see it good, listening to the community would show that someone knows more about the game and they dont want this, they like to live in their own little dream of knowing everything. If ANet would just once listen to people, and by this I mean, listen to people who are saying normal things and not just crying cough3 mirage being OP threads per day cough chrono would be still viable together with other killed/dead specs
    They think they can balance something they dont know, its like that I could repair a mechanical clock without knowing how it works.

    Funny thing is their nerfs are actually recommended by the community, "the knowledgeable community" that is, not the mesmer one.

    The degenerate

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I actually feel like reading the elementalist forums after the big staff nerfs, no matter what people say, ANet will balance in a way they see it good, listening to the community would show that someone knows more about the game and they dont want this, they like to live in their own little dream of knowing everything. If ANet would just once listen to people, and by this I mean, listen to people who are saying normal things and not just crying cough3 mirage being OP threads per day cough chrono would be still viable together with other killed/dead specs
    They think they can balance something they dont know, its like that I could repair a mechanical clock without knowing how it works.

    Funny thing is their nerfs are actually recommended by the community, "the knowledgeable community" that is, not the mesmer one.

    the hash trust is that most people are dumb, really really dumb. so if you listen to majority, you are listening to alot of dumb people.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy? chrono have a good initial burst but can't maintain the dps

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    Edit: even with no slow uptime and Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma I am unable to reproduce your situation on scepter/pistol + GS

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    chrono is on diviner
    fb is on harrier with mix of giver

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    chrono is on diviner
    fb is on harrier with mix of giver

    Try with full berserkers with assassins legs and trinkets. You don't need boon duration or TW.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    chrono is on diviner
    fb is on harrier with mix of giver

    Try with full berserkers with assassins legs and trinkets. You don't need boon duration or TW.

    well that's only 22% increase of crit damage, but you don't have 25might uptime + perma quickness and perma alacracy, i don't think 22% of crit damage can overdps it

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    chrono is on diviner
    fb is on harrier with mix of giver

    Try with full berserkers with assassins legs and trinkets. You don't need boon duration or TW.

    well that's only 22% increase of crit damage, but you don't have 25might uptime + perma quickness and perma alacracy, i don't think 22% of crit damage can overdps it

    Except you do have perma aoe quickness. And 25 might uptime and perma alacrity would come from your renegade regardless of whether you were a firebrand or mesmer. Adjust the console.

    Edit: It is not 50% less dps than heal firebrand. You would have to be comparing it vs a quickness firebrand to get that kind of difference.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526
    Btw fencer's finesse currently procs on scepter/sword clones. Regardless power quickness chrono is not going to be better than a power quickness firebrand (instead of heal firebrand) in dps if that's what you are going for. There are a number of things having to do with that. Chrono has 4k more health. Danger Time is too situational. "Feel My Wrath" is too good...

    Edit: Power chrono can do it's stuff from 900 range, etc.

    condi boon chrono will exceed heal firebrand and supply perma alacrity/quickness. You can also play normal condi chrono and just swap Chronophantasma with StM to exceed power quickness chrono in several situations.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, you dont even need to go that deep into this to tell the difference, full DPS chrono with chronophantasma+mantra of pain + disenchanter with 100% slow/quickness/alac uptime is doing 37k, from that 3.3k is disenchanter and 1.1 is mantra, so if we mirror this on a chrono with wells, we can safely say it does around 4.5k dps less. Lets take out chronophantasma too so that means halved damage on phantasm´s overal DPS, thats 7.4k for sw5 with chronphantasma, so without its 3.7k, gs4 is 4.3k with chronophantasma so 2.2k without it
    37k full dps - 3.3(disenchanter) - 1.1(mantra) - 3.7(sw5) - 2.2(gs4) = 26.7k
    even if we round everything up and such lets say it does 28k(based on my calculation wich is probably not usable), 28k with full DPS traits and the 2 wells + SoI + GW
    also since less phantasm you have less clones so less shater, but just lets pretent that my calculations are somewhat accurate, a condi quickbrand with quickness focused traits + quickness mantra does 28.6k SOLO(since the Ashes of something counts to your dps from others). I mean there is a big difference between the 2, and this is if we take that chrono is using full DPS gear+weapon-set without shield or focus, with shield it would be 3.7k less again so now i ask, what is OP?

    (the calculations were based on a power chrono benchmark log uploaded 7hrs ago,the fb number is from SC , even tho my calculations are wrong for sure, i cant be far away if i say that SUPPORT fb is atleast doing the same if not better dps than a full dps chrono without disenchanter and mantra and chronophantasma, and we didnt even talked about that fb has fury upkeep+aegis on demand...)
    A full support oriented chrono who is capable of upkeeping quickness and alac on 5 people is more or less comparable to a full harrier FB who can only upkeep quickness but heals for a ton + gives other useful boons like might, the two specs can not even be compared

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    condi boon chrono will exceed heal firebrand and supply perma alacrity/quickness. You can also play normal condi chrono and just swap Chronophantasma with StM to exceed power quickness chrono in several situations.

    So you are saying that a full support dps oriented chrono can exceed a full heal oriented support? Well, yeah thats true(on 3 bosses but even there I doubt it), but its like comparing condi druid and power berserker. Also, that chrono build does 7.5k damage, and uses confusion even tho thats broken on some bosses, outside from those you can not count confusion, and on how many bosses can you count burning/bleeding as normal damaging conditions?

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Nepster.4275 said:
    I mean, you dont even need to go that deep into this to tell the difference, full DPS chrono with chronophantasma+mantra of pain + disenchanter with 100% slow/quickness/alac uptime is doing 37k, from that 3.3k is disenchanter and 1.1 is mantra, so if we mirror this on a chrono with wells, we can safely say it does around 4.5k dps less. Lets take out chronophantasma too so that means halved damage on phantasm´s overal DPS, thats 7.4k for sw5 with chronphantasma, so without its 3.7k, gs4 is 4.3k with chronophantasma so 2.2k without it
    37k full dps - 3.3(disenchanter) - 1.1(mantra) - 3.7(sw5) - 2.2(gs4) = 26.7k
    even if we round everything up and such lets say it does 28k(based on my calculation wich is probably not usable), 28k with full DPS traits and the 2 wells + SoI + GW
    also since less phantasm you have less clones so less shater, but just lets pretent that my calculations are somewhat accurate, a condi quickbrand with quickness focused traits + quickness mantra does 28.6k SOLO(since the Ashes of something counts to your dps from others). I mean there is a big difference between the 2, and this is if we take that chrono is using full DPS gear+weapon-set without shield or focus, with shield it would be 3.7k less again so now i ask, what is OP?

    (the calculations were based on a power chrono benchmark log uploaded 7hrs ago,the fb number is from SC , even tho my calculations are wrong for sure, i cant be far away if i say that SUPPORT fb is atleast doing the same if not better dps than a full dps chrono without disenchanter and mantra and chronophantasma, and we didnt even talked about that fb has fury upkeep+aegis on demand...)
    A full support oriented chrono who is capable of upkeeping quickness and alac on 5 people is more or less comparable to a full harrier FB who can only upkeep quickness but heals for a ton + gives other useful boons like might, the two specs can not even be compared

    Of the numbers we have, condi support chrono benches higher than condi or power quickbrand. It brings slightly lower personal DPS but more than makes up for that with perma alacrity for the party.

    In this situation someone is taking a power chrono and only swapping Chronophantasma for Seize the Moment and reporting 50% less damage than heal firebrand. Heal firebrand has no benchmark, but that seems highly unlikely. Power quickbrand does 10k less than power chrono. Even with no slow uptime you will not be drastically behind a heal firebrand in harriers gear.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Nepster.4275 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    condi boon chrono will exceed heal firebrand and supply perma alacrity/quickness. You can also play normal condi chrono and just swap Chronophantasma with StM to exceed power quickness chrono in several situations.

    So you are saying that a full support dps oriented chrono can exceed a full heal oriented support? Well, yeah thats true(on 3 bosses but even there I doubt it), but its like comparing condi druid and power berserker. Also, that chrono build does 7.5k damage, and uses confusion even tho thats broken on some bosses, outside from those you can not count confusion, and on how many bosses can you count burning/bleeding as normal damaging conditions?

    In no situation should a power chrono that has only swapped Chronophantasma with Seize the Moment be doing 50% less damage than a heal brand. Unless for some reason you are deciding to run scepter/pistol and diviners.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    @SeikeNz.3526

    Btw fencer's finesse currently procs on scepter/sword clones. Regardless power quickness chrono is not going to be better than a power quickness firebrand (instead of heal firebrand) in dps if that's what you are going for. There are a number of things having to do with that. Chrono has 4k more health. Danger Time is too situational. "Feel My Wrath" is too good...

    Edit: Chrono can do it's stuff from 900 range. etc.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    chrono is on diviner
    fb is on harrier with mix of giver

    Try with full berserkers with assassins legs and trinkets. You don't need boon duration or TW.

    well that's only 22% increase of crit damage, but you don't have 25might uptime + perma quickness and perma alacracy, i don't think 22% of crit damage can overdps it

    Except you do have perma aoe quickness. And 25 might uptime and perma alacrity would come from your renegade regardless of whether you were a firebrand or mesmer. Adjust the console.

    Edit: It is not 50% less dps than heal firebrand. You would have to be comparing it vs a quickness firebrand to get that kind of difference.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    today i was checking my dps and god my heal brand was doing more dmg than him

    power chrono gs+scpeter/pistol with diviner killed the vet golem at fractal in +-3min
    healbrand axe/shield with harrier killed the vet golem at fractal in +-1s 30min
    condi shortbow ranger with trailblazer killed vet golem at fractal in 30s

    so my healbrand can dps better than a chrono with diviner something is very wrong with chronos, maybe they are supposed to be alacracy+quickness bot?

    That is not a fair comparison. You should have tested with sword/sword + x, where x is either sword/focus, or traited greatsword. YMMV with slow uptime but 3 minutes is too long.

    its a very fair, im traited to gs also perma quickness+ perma 50% alacracy + 25 might, the dmg is low even with all those boons, if i give all those boons to my ranger it would explode the golem, maybe i just made a boon bot

    Scepter/pistol vs axe/shield doesn't prove much.

    it proves because im traited to heal/support on the fb the axe shield is to do some dmg also it's not the best dmg out there
    while chrono gs is supposed to do damage also it's traited to do damage and it's doing lower damage, also the scepcter/pistol is not that bad as you are trying to say, pistol 4 do a very good burst plus the 5 stun when needed, also scepter 3 do another good damage, then i just change back to gs for damage

    Then you are doing something very wrong. Perhaps not shattering? Even with harriers, a chono with sword/shield + MW will not be twice as long.

    yeah im shattering how im supposed to have perma quickness and alacracy?

    Then I have no idea how it is taking you twice as long. Are you not running full berserker on the Chrono?

    chrono is on diviner
    fb is on harrier with mix of giver

    Try with full berserkers with assassins legs and trinkets. You don't need boon duration or TW.

    well that's only 22% increase of crit damage, but you don't have 25might uptime + perma quickness and perma alacracy, i don't think 22% of crit damage can overdps it

    Except you do have perma aoe quickness. And 25 might uptime and perma alacrity would come from your renegade regardless of whether you were a firebrand or mesmer. Adjust the console.

    Edit: It is not 50% less dps than heal firebrand. You would have to be comparing it vs a quickness firebrand to get that kind of difference.

    well you can't compare in a party situation, you have to compare the class alone and what it can do alone, of course in a perfect party your assassin + zerk chrono will do more dmg than a diviner chrno but the game is more than only raids, theres wvw, theres fractal, theres open world, theres pvp and most of the time chrono is alone without the perfect raid/party, also even with the gears that you said to me my healfb would do more dmg, it does both condi and power damage with fast hits because of the perma 25 might + perma quickness , while chrno has some spike burst dmg. after shatter and the phantasm he is useless.

    i like chrono play style way more than any class but it's a sad truth even a healfb has more dmg than it and stop saying about the scepter/pistol it's a secondary weapon << the main is gs also diviner is not that bad as you keep implying without a perfect party a berserker will do way less dmg