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How to Nerf Tools Holo

shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 12, 2019 in PVP
Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
  1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
  2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
  3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
  4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
    • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
    • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
    • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
  5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
  6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
  7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
  8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
Photon Forge
  1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
  2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
  3. Healing, utility, toolbelt, and elite skills should be disabled when the Holo enters Photon Forge. This is the only transformation skill in the game that allows the player full access to the rest of their non-weapon abilities.
Weapons
  1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
  2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
  3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
  4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.
<1

Comments

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    Tools holo has permanent quickness, near permanent stability, near permanent superspeed, can out-trade everything in melee range with it's auto attacks, has extremely strong passive sustain with 0 investment into healing power, has one of the strongest healing skills (arguably the strongest) in the game, high single target/AoE damage in both melee and ranged, a long duration, low cooldown stealth, high mobility, frequent, long duration CCs, and several high-impact skills with nearly unrecognizable/very short animations.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Tycura.1982 said:
    Targeting core lines and abilities hurts the class as a whole which is unjustified if you consider the state of the other engie specs.

    That's a pretty one-dimensional way to approach this problem.

    It is 100% possible to nerf core traits/abilities to reduce the effectiveness of expansion specs whilst simultaneously providing buffs to the core skills that will not buff/break/affect the latter in any way, shape, or form.

    For example, Invigorating Speed could get nerfed to 3s vigor every 10s (from the current 6s vigor every 5s) and Health Insurance could get buffed to make Med Kit viable. In this case, you'd nerf a trait that was making Holosmith too strong (and bringing it in-line with other, similarly functioning skills) while buffing non-meta/core/etc. etc. builds at the same time.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Tycura.1982 said:
    Targeting core lines and abilities hurts the class as a whole which is unjustified if you consider the state of the other engie specs.

    That's a pretty one-dimensional way to approach this problem.

    It is 100% possible to nerf core traits/abilities to reduce the effectiveness of expansion specs whilst simultaneously providing buffs to the core skills that will not buff/break/affect the latter in any way, shape, or form.

    For example, Invigorating Speed could get nerfed to 3s vigor every 10s (from the current 6s vigor every 5s) and Health Insurance could get buffed to make Med Kit viable. In this case, you'd nerf a trait that was making Holosmith too strong (and bringing it in-line with other, similarly functioning skills) while buffing non-meta/core/etc. etc. builds at the same time.

    A lot of core traits and skills across the game need to be nerfed because so many things became overloaded and overpowered since the specialization patch.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why are you nerfing rifle?????

    I get that hitting traits to prevent it from being too strong but HIP SHOT??? NET SHOT????? BLUNDERBUSS???

    You DO know that engie has NO solid weapons that do damage ATM but rifle right?????? You are literally nerfing their only damage weapon out of existence and making it MORE CLUNKY. How do you already make a clunky weapon more clunky????

    Rifle is not the problem and you can't sit there, honestly telling me that it is. You literally can't. Everyone has been complaining about photon forge and heat therapy along with ICD to certain traits. No one and their money complained about rifle except for the people who literally never touched engie in their life.

    Usually, I'm in agreement, but those rifle changes are wrong and you should know better than to target that. ESPECIALLY when you were raising absolute nonense when they nerfed not only druid staff and greatswords. Ranger still has SOLID weapons to rely on, Engie has nothing but crappy utility weapons because of kits.

  • asterix.9614asterix.9614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    Kitten kitten kitten you kitten spewing kitten.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    LOl, nerf core traits and core weapon on one of the weakest core classes. A fine example of why the devs should ignore the forum.

  • Part 1

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Tycura.1982 said:
    Targeting core lines and abilities hurts the class as a whole which is unjustified if you consider the state of the other engie specs.

    That's a pretty one-dimensional way to approach this problem.

    The only one thinking one-dimensional is you, in this case. I don't mind if you want to nerf other Elite specs in order to continue steamrolling on your cheesy soulbeast builds, but if you want to nerf Holo (which, by all means, please do!), then please keep your hands off the core abilities. If you would at least try to learn how other classes work, you would know that there is pretty much no place for Core Engineer anywhere already, except for a few lackluster, spam-based condition builds, which - quite frankly - are still worse than the vast majority of condition based builds that other classes run around with.

    To address your points:

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites

    1] Healing Turret is (or was) an above average Healing skill - and for a good reason. All the other Heals utterly suck in terms of self-healing, and it is Engineers only way to reliably clear conditions without being pigeonholed into Alchemy or Inventions. Back then, before a-net somehow managed to destroy the balance more and more through the introduction of elite specs, it was among the best, but now? It's core Engineers only way of staying alive. And while it is in the upper range of healing skills, it's still not "the best" - here a quick overview of similarly powerful heals:

    Healing Turret: [6360|7400 (with regen)] [20] . . . . . . [ 318|370]
    Signet of Resolve: [8150] [30|24] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [ 272|340]
    "To the Limit!": [9100|10100] [30|24] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [303|421]
    Mending: [6520] [15|12] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [435|543]
    "We Heal As One!":[6520] [20|16] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [326|407] (this one is for you)
    Troll Urgent: [8496][25|20] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[340|425] (this one, too)
    Withdraw: [4766][18|14.4] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[264|331]
    Glyph o. E. Har.: [6494][20|16] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [325|406]
    Ether Feast: [5560+X*650][20] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [278|310|_342_|374]

    Your Problem doesn't stem from the Heal, it stems from a combination of quickness and stability. You would have three options:
    a) tone down the holo spec itself. This would be the best option, as this is where the basic problem lies
    b) tone down Elixir U. The reason why Elixir U is as "strong" as it is, is because Core Engineers do not possess a second weaponset, meaning that they usually have to choose at least one Kit, all of which are somewhat lackluster in the damage department, compared to actual Weaponsets on other classes. This means the core engineer is left with two (often only one) utility slot, hence the relatively strong effect on that elixir. Nerfing it would hit the core engineer harder, but would still be a localized "solution" to your problem
    c) nerf the one viable heal for the Engineer profession in general. While the Holo would probably still get away with using medkit instead, you would hit core engineers across the board, regardless of how they trait. It's probably the most stupid way to go about it, unless your intend is to ruin all the specs other than Holo first, before killing off Holo later.
    The fact that you go for Solution c) shows just how one dimensional your thinking is.

    2] I like passive procs about as much as I like Soulbeast players who somehow still fail at playing the game despite playing what they play. Do with it whatever you want.

    3] Kinetic Battery is a dumb idea in general. It's not reliable (holding back Toolbelt skills to wait for the right moment would kitten you up in the meantime), and for anything but random bursts of superspeed and quickness. I'm also pretty sure that it is bugged right now, so if it makes space for another, more useful trait, then so be it.

    4] Apart from Rugged Growth being part of the WS Traitline (which already allows you to kitten out Fury and Condition removal in the first place), this is the only sensible suggestion you have done up to this point (especially since it nerfs only the holo). I don't mind leaving the faceroll to soulbeasts, mirages, and co, so a-net can nerf this regeneration for all I care. Of course the comparison to that ranger trait is still kitten. To get "perma vigor", the core engineer is forced to go into alchemy, slot Elixir U (there it is again), and other elixirs granting swiftness, alongside the Tool-Trait Streamlined Kits. That means one or no Kits, making the engi harmless. Of course Holos can abuse Holo Leap for it, but then again, you should be going after these skills in the first place. Your typical Holo builds also doesn't use Kits, and without the Holomode, their greatest source of damage is gone during the healing phase.

    5] One-Dimensional global nerf again, instead of getting to the root.

    6] The stealth is fine, considering the 6 seconds force you to go into alchemy. 3 Seconds of stealth is nothing on a profession fighting in melee-to-midrange, especially if it lacks any sort of gapopeners or teleports to get away from the engagement (Rifle #5 and Rocket Boots will expose you due to the AoE). It's not like a LB Ranger, who can keep a stealth uptime of 25% (~43% when traited) with Hunters Shot while already outside the foes range, especially if there are clones, minions, npcs or other pets running around. Again, what makes this so strong is not it's uptime, but the fact that a Holo will use it during the Cooloff period. See the problem?

    7] Elixir U is as strong as it is right now for a reason. Again, Holo is the problem, not a Core Engi with Elixir U.

    8] By all means.

  • phirefox.2568phirefox.2568 Member ✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    Part 2

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    That's a pretty one-dimensional way to approach this problem.

    Photon Forge

    1] Yes, Holo Leap should be nerfed in terms of Damage, Cooldown, and probably also if it comes to superspeed. But if you think Engineers are getting "near perma-superspeed" with Kinetic Battery, I can't help but laugh. Even if you chose to play SD Holo with PBR, Rifle Turret and PW (which, thanks to the lack of elixirs, dies quickly to pretty much everything despite the OP regeneration trait), you will have a hard time getting anywhere near "perma-superspeed" with that trait. Also, if you intend to look at 10 second cycles, look no further than the two Swoops that you have. Soulbeasts in WvW can basically run into a group, down some players (or even finish one) while being invulnerable, and flee just as quickly as they arrived by doubleswooping. If you wanted to catch them, you would need a nikey warrior or a thief with a bunch of teleports - neither of which will have an easy time facing the monstrosity that is a soulbeast.

    2] Wouldn't mind nerfing CB either.

    3] This is probably one of the dumbest ideas I've read on this forum yet - and I look up the warrior forum sometimes, so that means a lot. Photon Forge is not a transformation; it's supposed to work like a special form of Kit or an alternate Weaponset (because unlike your soulbeast, engineers do not have two weaponsets). That it allows "Full Access" to Utility Skills is also blatantly false, and i'm kind of surprised how someone could miss something that basic. Activating PF deactivates your all of the Engineers Kits for 6 seconds, if you have any. Switching to a kit will rip you out of PF, so you cannot just switch between PF and your Kits as you would do with your Weaponset, which limits their use, since you usually use "a bit of everything" in kit-based builds. If you do not use a kit, the Photon Forge gets reduced to simply being a second weaponset (as all other clases save for the elementalist have), which by itself isn't a bad thing, and certainly doesn't require stupid changes to the mechanic itself rooted in a misunderstanding of what it is.

    Weapons

    1] Apart from you suddenly caring about stealth tracking, you can at most track someone two times - once if the target stealths during your channel, and twice (for some skills) if a second skill is "queued" behind that first one. The exception are continuous leap chains, if you count that - but that got nothing to do with Hip Shot. Yet again you intend to introduce a global nerf, this time to the only viable Power Weapon engineers have left, due to some PvP build utilizing Elixir U. Hip Shot has 1200 range, takes ¾ seconds (or rather 0.84s, according to the wiki) to execute, and got a (0.65) modifier on it. Long Range Shot got something between 1800 and 2000 range on even terrain (just compare your actual range with the one of Barrage - and this is the case for all Longbow Attacks), takes ¾ seconds (or rather a second, according to wiki) to execute, and got damage ranging from (0.7) to (0.9). Since a-net at some point removed the threshold system, I can only suspect that they went with linear scaling now (easiest to calculate), which would mean the damage would increase by (0.02) for every 100 units of distance, granting the shot at1800/1900/2000 range (0.96/0.98/1.0) respectively (though i'm still not sure if it reaches beyond the 1800 mark). Considering the gigantic range, I would say this point goes to the longbow. Even if you take the WvW nerf into account (14% for the lower limit), it would start off at (~0.6), and reach the Damage of Hip Shot at about 250 distance to the target. Taking (in addition to that) the difference in execution time into account, Long Range Shot would overtake Hip Shot at about 850 range, which is worse, but not enough for me to consider it as "weaker" than Hip Shot. You might as well nerf Longbow again - but you probably don't want that.

    2] While i'm not a fan of frequent immo, the fact that we are still talking about the one viable powerweapon makes me hesistant to change it in any way

    3] Blunderbuss is a maximum (1.76) attack with a 9 second Cooldown and half a second windup. While it is one of the stronger attacks for the engineer (since kit skills tend to be laughably weak), it's nothing to write home about compared to the vast majority of nonauto-weaponskills the other classes have - and that on a class which can only take one weaponset by default. In practice it will always be weaker than Ranger's Maul - a skill that has less than half the CD (and even less depending on the situation) doing basically the same damage (1.75), which you would probably be reluctant to nerf.

    4] Unlike Overcharged Shot, Point Blank Shot can be traited to a 12 second CD, and does not affect the User with a self-knockback. And similarly to all the other Longbow Skills, Point Blank Shot's range reaches beyond the official 1200 units - it's range is slightly above that of barrage, putting it about 300 units further than Overcharged Shot. The projectile fired by Overcharged Shot also travels slower than the Ranger's version - at maximum range you may still evade it (though it's hard), while Point Blank Shot is more difficult to evade even at 1500 range.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    Be careful to not overnerf Healturret. 3/4 sec cast time for a heal is already one of the highest when you compare it to most other healskills in gw2 (only heals with additional mechanics like the block on guard heal, signets with passive effect and channel heals have higher activation time). At least when you kill most sources of quickness i would be careful with higher the heal cast time in addition. Also that will not help vs the ability to cover the heal with stealth or stabi. I also would not kill too many combofinisher since comboing is a skillfull mechanic and basic nature for Engis. Some higher cds on turret and few combofinisher (in particular the Holo leap), p.r.n. less base heal on turret activation and way less quickness as a first step would be enough i think. I am also fine with reducing boonuptime including regeneration. Head Thereapy maybe even can stay at it is then, if still too much sustain it can be looked at in a second step. Even though i agree to @mortrialus.3062 that Head Therapie is stupid design. Still less boonuptime is more important and removing everything maybe too much of a nerf.

    Holoform needs more cds to get back into it and some Holoskills also need higher cds, there is no need to make it clunky by restricting it any further.

    For the rifle skills i only agree to the last point.

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    LOl, nerf core traits and core weapon on one of the weakest core classes. A fine example of why the devs should ignore the forum.

    You have to nerf overperforming traitlines, no matter if core or not. And often the defensive core traitlines are the ones causing the problems and often are too passively designed. Nerf or at least rework is needed in these core traitlines on most classes.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phirefox.2568 said:

    Part 1

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Tycura.1982 said:
    Targeting core lines and abilities hurts the class as a whole which is unjustified if you consider the state of the other engie specs.

    That's a pretty one-dimensional way to approach this problem.

    The only one thinking one-dimensional is you, in this case. I don't mind if you want to nerf other Elite specs in order to continue steamrolling on your cheesy soulbeast builds, but if you want to nerf Holo (which, by all means, please do!), then please keep your hands off the core abilities. If you would at least try to learn how other classes work, you would know that there is pretty much no place for Core Engineer anywhere already, except for a few lackluster, spam-based condition builds, which - quite frankly - are still worse than the vast majority of condition based builds that other classes run around with.

    To address your points:

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites

    1] Healing Turret is (or was) an above average Healing skill - and for a good reason. All the other Heals utterly suck in terms of self-healing, and it is Engineers only way to reliably clear conditions without being pigeonholed into Alchemy or Inventions. Back then, before a-net somehow managed to destroy the balance more and more through the introduction of elite specs, it was among the best, but now? It's core Engineers only way of staying alive. And while it is in the upper range of healing skills, it's still not "the best" - here a quick overview of similarly powerful heals:

    Healing Turret: [6360|7400 (with regen)] [20] . . . . . . [ 318|370]
    Signet of Resolve: [8150] [30|24] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [ 272|340]
    "To the Limit!": [9100|10100] [30|24] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [303|421]
    Mending: [6520] [15|12] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [435|543]
    "We Heal As One!":[6520] [20|16] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [326|407] (this one is for you)
    Troll Urgent: [8496][25|20] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[340|425] (this one, too)
    Withdraw: [4766][18|14.4] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[264|331]
    Glyph o. E. Har.: [6494][20|16] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [325|406]
    Ether Feast: [5560+X*650][20] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [278|310|_342_|374]

    You aren't even taking into account the field. That 370 HPS is Healing Turret's power _before _you start comboing it with other skills. This isn't a healing skill that justifies it's higher HPS with a long cast time like Mantra of Resolve or because the healing it provides is gradual like Troll Unguent, or because there are genuine restrictions on effectiveness like Ether Feast. With just two finishers and zero healing power and no synergistic traits Healing Turret is already breaking 500 HPS. Better than all those healing skills that theoretically out perform it if they're specifically running the trait for it except Warrior's Mending. And Engineer can do that, get all that healing FAST. A core engineer can both cast Healing Turret and toss two combos into it in under 1.5 seconds with just core traits capabilities alone. That's effectively a complete reset of the fight with that level of healing on a 20s cooldown. That has nothing to do with Photon Forge or Holosmith.

    Healing skills tend to come in a handful of basic models. In intense fights you can expect to have to be activating your healing skill close to on cooldown depending on the situation, so you look at the healing the skill provides divided by the cooldown to determine the Healing Per Second. You can also expect heals to provide less self healing in exchange for splashing heals out to your allies as a general principal. If you know the game you can skip the next section down to where I start dissecting Healing Turret itself.

    • On the bottom tend to be heals that also do damage in and of themselves or heavily facilitate damage through something like reducing cooldowns, or some other extremely obvious combat utility like Block. These include Arcane Brilliance, Enchanted Daggers, Signet of Vampirism, Signet of the Ether, Bloodfiend, Shelter. They' provide deliberately under tuned healing per second as a result of them being balanced with their theoretical damage utility in mind. They tend to range between 120-200 healing per second.
    • Next up tend to be general purpose healing skills that are good in nearly every situation and are instant active heals with minimal requirements. These include Withdraw, To The Limit, Signet of Mercy, Glyph of Elemental Harmony, Mirror, Hide in Shadows. They're very pop and forget, very forgiving to use. They tend to range between 200-280 Healing Per Second. Healing Turret actually falls into this category, but we'll get back to that.
    • Next up tend to be heals that happen over longer periods of time, gradually. These include Troll Unguent(339 hps), False Oasis(324 hps), Healing Signet(344 hps), Medic Gyro (281 hps but also heals team), Well of Blood (282 hps but also heals team). They're tuned to have higher healing per second as a result of being gradual healing over time. These tend to range between 280 and peak out at 344 with warrior's Healing Signet.
    • And finally you have healing skills with very specific requirements or costs to getting the most out of them. These are typically the most powerful heals when used correctly by a serious margin, as their costs or requirements can be considerably more tricky and costly in the context of a fight. These include A.E.D., Defiant Stance and Infuse the Light, Natural Healing, Litany of Wrath and Blood Reckoning, Ether Feast, Skelk Venom, Mantra of Restoration if you include the full channel. The Healing Per Second is very high, the best in the game usually, often reaching 400-500 HPS or more, even incalculable levels of healing per second in theory.

    Healing Turret plays like a Tier 2 healing skill, gives fast restriction free, instantaneous results on par with T3 healing skills. And with combos which can be done very quickly it gives fast results on par with T4 healing skills. That's the problem.

    Your Problem doesn't stem from the Heal, it stems from a combination of quickness and stability. You would have three options:
    a) tone down the holo spec itself. This would be the best option, as this is where the basic problem lies
    b) tone down Elixir U. The reason why Elixir U is as "strong" as it is, is because Core Engineers do not possess a second weaponset, meaning that they usually have to choose at least one Kit, all of which are somewhat lackluster in the damage department, compared to actual Weaponsets on other classes. This means the core engineer is left with two (often only one) utility slot, hence the relatively strong effect on that elixir. Nerfing it would hit the core engineer harder, but would still be a localized "solution" to your problem
    c) nerf the one viable heal for the Engineer profession in general. While the Holo would probably still get away with using medkit instead, you would hit core engineers across the board, regardless of how they trait. It's probably the most stupid way to go about it, unless your intend is to ruin all the specs other than Holo first, before killing off Holo later.

    Elixir H is a rock solid heal. And genuinely excellent traited. A.E.D. is also amazing with just a little bit of a skill cap in using it and it has seen a decent amount of usage in Path of Fire. The only reason you think Healing Turret the only viable healing skill is because you live in a world where Healing Turret is outrageously over tuned and that seems "normal" to you.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

    It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

    Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

    Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    LOl, nerf core traits and core weapon on one of the weakest core classes. A fine example of why the devs should ignore the forum.

    You have to nerf overperforming traitlines, no matter if core or not. And often the defensive core traitlines are the ones causing the problems and often are too passively designed. Nerf or at least rework is needed in these core traitlines on most classes.

    The crying about "passive" in this game always makes me laugh, for two reasons. Firstly because generally it demonstrates a level of hypocrisy, when the most passive thing by far and the thing that lowers the skill cap by far more than anything else in this game is that the game aims for you, but that rarely gets mentioned, apparently the playerbase is so bad in this game it thinks tab targetting instant blinks is mucho, mucho skill... /facepalm

    Secondly it shows zero understanding of game design, take a class like engy as we are on that, it needs some passive traits, because it has more pressure and more opportunity cost on its utilities than other classes (which makes things like stun breaks an issue), because it only has one weapon so has to fit more into it's utilities/tool skills to make up for that. (which is of course part of the problem with holo in that it sort of gives engy two weapons). Then beyond that we are not playing an e-sport, it is a casual MMORPG with a largely dead PvP/WvW palybase, which has a large mixture of players, so guess what, they have to design for that also.

    And no those traitlines are not overperforming, those same traitlines on core leave you with one of the weakest core classes.

    The only overhaul the traits in this game need it the system itself, the elite spec system is badly designed and impossible to balance (even more when you consider other game modes on top), because two of your trait lines will be shared by core and the other elite. But that isn't going happen to the game will continue to die off and only the handful of addicts remain.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    LOl, nerf core traits and core weapon on one of the weakest core classes. A fine example of why the devs should ignore the forum.

    You have to nerf overperforming traitlines, no matter if core or not. And often the defensive core traitlines are the ones causing the problems and often are too passively designed. Nerf or at least rework is needed in these core traitlines on most classes.

    The crying about "passive" in this game always makes me laugh, for two reasons. Firstly because generally it demonstrates a level of hypocrisy, when the most passive thing by far and the thing that lowers the skill cap by far more than anything else this game is that the game aims for you, but that rarely gets mentioned, apparently the playerbase is so bad in this game it thinks tab targetting instant blinks is mucho, mucho skill... /facepalm

    Secondly it shows zero understanding of game design, take a class like engy as we are on that, it needs some passive traits, because it has more pressure and more opportunity cost on its utilities than other classes (which makes things like stun breaks an issue), because it only has one weapon so has to fit more into it's utilities/tool skills to make up for that. (which is of course part of the problem with holo in that it sort of gives engy two weapons). Then beyond that we are not playing an e-sport, it is a casual MMORPG with a largely dead PvP/WvW palybase, which has a large mixture of players, so guess what, they have to design for that also.

    And no those traitlines are not overperforming, those same traitlines on core leave you with one of the weakest core classes.

    The only overhaul the traits in this game need it the system itself, the elite spec system is badly designed and impossible to balance (even more when you consider other game modes on top), because two of your trait lines will be shared by core and the other elite. But that isn't going happen to the game will continue to die off and only the handful of addicts remain.

    That the game is dead and casual and all that blah blah is not an argument. We are all here to try to make this game better and more fun what maybe even leads in it being less dead and less casual in competitive gamemodes. That you don't need to aim is not a passive effect it is just a different playstyle. The skill in GW2 doesn't lie in aiming it lies in mindful use of cds, comboing and reaction time in an action combat system. Aiming games are not the only type of games need skill, it is just a different type of required skill. So no i don't agree to you at all.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    LOl, nerf core traits and core weapon on one of the weakest core classes. A fine example of why the devs should ignore the forum.

    You have to nerf overperforming traitlines, no matter if core or not. And often the defensive core traitlines are the ones causing the problems and often are too passively designed. Nerf or at least rework is needed in these core traitlines on most classes.

    The crying about "passive" in this game always makes me laugh, for two reasons. Firstly because generally it demonstrates a level of hypocrisy, when the most passive thing by far and the thing that lowers the skill cap by far more than anything else this game is that the game aims for you, but that rarely gets mentioned, apparently the playerbase is so bad in this game it thinks tab targetting instant blinks is mucho, mucho skill... /facepalm

    Secondly it shows zero understanding of game design, take a class like engy as we are on that, it needs some passive traits, because it has more pressure and more opportunity cost on its utilities than other classes (which makes things like stun breaks an issue), because it only has one weapon so has to fit more into it's utilities/tool skills to make up for that. (which is of course part of the problem with holo in that it sort of gives engy two weapons). Then beyond that we are not playing an e-sport, it is a casual MMORPG with a largely dead PvP/WvW palybase, which has a large mixture of players, so guess what, they have to design for that also.

    And no those traitlines are not overperforming, those same traitlines on core leave you with one of the weakest core classes.

    The only overhaul the traits in this game need it the system itself, the elite spec system is badly designed and impossible to balance (even more when you consider other game modes on top), because two of your trait lines will be shared by core and the other elite. But that isn't going happen to the game will continue to die off and only the handful of addicts remain.

    all that blah blah is not an argument...

    Irony... (and no casual is an argument, because that is a factor in game design, just as the design of engy is in regard to passive traits, but that requires you to actually think and look outside your narrow focus)

    That you don't need to aim is not a passive effect it is just a different playstyle...

    LOL, it is the most passive, most skill lowering thing in the game, the game actually aims for you, a glorified tab targeted game that pretends to be "action" designed for players with limited mechanical ability. (which given GW2's playerbase is a good thing, but it just becomes hilarious when people bang on about passive traits whilst the game aims for them in an "action" game.)

    The skill in GW2 doesn't lie in aiming it lies in mindful use of cds,...

    Pls stop making me laugh. Maybe I should I go find the video of Helseth having to quit one of his last few streams of this game, basically saying I can't play this any more, I am just spamming skills (mirage) and killing people (platinum much skill, LOL).

  • That's more like how to make holo useless like other engi specs topic.
    how about pick one of your points? Cause that would be more reasonable.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

    It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

    Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

    Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

    all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.
    but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.
    giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.
    could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.
    some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

    PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

    It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

    Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

    Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

    all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.
    but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.
    giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.
    could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.
    some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

    PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

    You can bake self reveals into Holo skills & photon forge because you can't take away Toss Elixir S / smoke fields from Engi, which are core to the class.

    It's vent exhaust that allows PF to be online more often. Without that trait the Photon Forge really is on around a 20s cooldown heat cycle, which is still really fun, (try using Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit GM major trait.)

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:
    LOl, nerf core traits and core weapon on one of the weakest core classes. A fine example of why the devs should ignore the forum.

    You have to nerf overperforming traitlines, no matter if core or not. And often the defensive core traitlines are the ones causing the problems and often are too passively designed. Nerf or at least rework is needed in these core traitlines on most classes.

    The crying about "passive" in this game always makes me laugh, for two reasons. Firstly because generally it demonstrates a level of hypocrisy, when the most passive thing by far and the thing that lowers the skill cap by far more than anything else this game is that the game aims for you, but that rarely gets mentioned, apparently the playerbase is so bad in this game it thinks tab targetting instant blinks is mucho, mucho skill... /facepalm

    Secondly it shows zero understanding of game design, take a class like engy as we are on that, it needs some passive traits, because it has more pressure and more opportunity cost on its utilities than other classes (which makes things like stun breaks an issue), because it only has one weapon so has to fit more into it's utilities/tool skills to make up for that. (which is of course part of the problem with holo in that it sort of gives engy two weapons). Then beyond that we are not playing an e-sport, it is a casual MMORPG with a largely dead PvP/WvW palybase, which has a large mixture of players, so guess what, they have to design for that also.

    And no those traitlines are not overperforming, those same traitlines on core leave you with one of the weakest core classes.

    The only overhaul the traits in this game need it the system itself, the elite spec system is badly designed and impossible to balance (even more when you consider other game modes on top), because two of your trait lines will be shared by core and the other elite. But that isn't going happen to the game will continue to die off and only the handful of addicts remain.

    all that blah blah is not an argument...

    Irony... (and no casual is an argument, because that is a factor in game design, just as the design of engy is in regard to passive traits, but that requires you to actually think and look outside your narrow focus)

    That you don't need to aim is not a passive effect it is just a different playstyle...

    LOL, it is the most passive, most skill lowering thing in the game, the game actually aims for you, a glorified tab targeted game that pretends to be "action" designed for players with limited mechanical ability. (which given GW2's playerbase is a good thing, but it just becomes hilarious when people bang on about passive traits whilst the game aims for them in an "action" game.)

    The skill in GW2 doesn't lie in aiming it lies in mindful use of cds,...

    Pls stop making me laugh. Maybe I should I go find the video of Helseth having to quit one of his last few streams of this game, basically saying I can't play this any more, I am just spamming skills (mirage) and killing people (platinum much skill, LOL).

    Ok in your view only aim games are skillful. Not narrowed at all...
    Games without aiming have other types of skill need. Denying that is objectively wrong but whatever.
    And yes Helseth just proves my point, he can't play ANYMORE because the game became so braindead and spammy and casual. That is exactly why most ppl are here ( at least why i am here), to give balance suggestions make this game more skillbased again and more fun and less casual, give classes more skillneed so you can see the difference between a bad and a good player but without nerfing the class into the ground just because ppl are too lazy to improve and learn how to counter stuff (aka Mesmer as best example) or ppl are too afraid that they don't have enough skill anymore when their class finally will get some more skill ceiling again (aka a lot of mains of their classes).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

    It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

    Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

    Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

    all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.
    but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.
    giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.
    could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.
    some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

    PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

    You can bake self reveals into Holo skills & photon forge because you can't take away Toss Elixir S / smoke fields from Engi, which are core to the class.

    It's vent exhaust that allows PF to be online more often. Without that trait the Photon Forge really is on around a 20s cooldown heat cycle, which is still really fun, (try using Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit GM major trait.)

    in general, stealth is give to light classes as devensive/offensive tool. defensively to disengaging and offensively to setting up combo/bursts.
    more often then not light classes have fast cast, low impact abilites that when combined provide decent outcome, while heavy classes have long casttime, big effect attacks.
    hiding 1/4s casttime in stealth is not a big deal, hiding over 1s casttime ability with stealth, on a class that can sustain in a fight ( thus dont need stealth for defence ) means that they can use it more towards offence/utility.

    I want you to play mesmer with mass invis and holo with elixir stealth.
    and just count how often you can freely use one of those stealths for offence/utility ( rez/stop ) and how ofte you HAVE TO use it to disengage.

    adding self reveal to the spec would have to be placed in sooo many places. holo->stealth is not fine. steath->plb is not fine.
    stealth-> healing turret combos is questionable.
    I dont wanna make over the top suggestions for holo beccouse i dont play/know much abbout the class to make assumptions.
    but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

  • phirefox.2568phirefox.2568 Member ✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    You aren't even taking into account the field. That 370 HPS is Healing Turret's power _before _you start comboing it with other skills. This isn't a healing skill that justifies it's higher HPS with a long cast time like Mantra of Resolve or because the healing it provides is gradual like Troll Unguent, or because there are genuine restrictions on effectiveness like Ether Feast. With just two finishers and zero healing power and no synergistic traits Healing Turret is already breaking 500 HPS. Better than all those healing skills that theoretically out perform it if they're specifically running the trait for it except Warrior's Mending. And Engineer can do that, get all that healing FAST. A core engineer can both cast Healing Turret and toss two combos into it in under 1.5 seconds with just core traits capabilities alone. That's effectively a complete reset of the fight with that level of healing on a 20s cooldown. That has nothing to do with Photon Forge or Holosmith.

    The 6360 (or 318 hp/s) stem from the Healing Turret + it's self-finisher. The additional 1040 hp (the boost to 370hp/s) come from the 8 seconds of regeneration caused by that chain (so that part at least is not instant, just like Troll Unguent). Of course you can combine it with other skills (traited mines, for example), but when you take these combos into consideration, you might as well take a look at every utility and combo field based heal across all classes.

    On the bottom tend to be heals that also do damage in and of themselves or heavily facilitate damage through something like reducing cooldowns, or some other extremely obvious combat utility like Block. These include Arcane Brilliance, Enchanted Daggers, Signet of Vampirism, Signet of the Ether, Bloodfiend, Shelter. They' provide deliberately under tuned healing per second as a result of them being balanced with their theoretical damage utility in mind. They tend to range between 120-200 healing per second.

    I did not touch any of those since their healing output is far too situation dependent, though you likely already guessed that.

    Next up tend to be general purpose healing skills that are good in nearly every situation and are instant active heals with minimal requirements. These include Withdraw, To The Limit, Signet of Mercy, Glyph of Elemental Harmony, Mirror, Hide in Shadows. They're very pop and forget, very forgiving to use. They tend to range between 200-280 Healing Per Second. Healing Turret actually falls into this category, but we'll get back to that.

    Apart from Troll Uguent and Ether Feast, the other heals on my list fall into that category. And even though Ether Feast does have a condition in terms of clones on the field, I still included it due to personal experience. Before I took a break from Guild Wars, I used to main Mesmer for years (playing other classes to get behind the mechanics and builds) as a duelist, and not with the cheesy tanky condition builds, elite specs or the (for dueling purposes overbuffed) power interrupt spec pre HoT, either. I think I can count the situations in which I was able to pull Ether Feast off without at least two Clones on one Hand, and that as someone who mainly played old-school powershatter builds. I did notice that Healing Turret was pretty strong (even more so due to the tanky nature of condibunker engis - think of burn bunkers or, even older, perplexity engis), but it never appeared overwhelming to me.

    Sure, it would make the tanky, spammy condibunker specs even more annoying, but engi powerbunkers were at least lacking in stopping power, and glassy engineers did not have enough defense to safe themselves with that Turret. Aside from that, 4 of the 6 other T1 heals I listed are above that 280er mark, 6 if you count their traited Variants, so there are quite a few outliners.

    Next up tend to be heals that happen over longer periods of time, gradually. These include Troll Unguent(339 hps), False Oasis(324 hps), Healing Signet(344 hps), Medic Gyro (281 hps but also heals team), Well of Blood (282 hps but also heals team). They're tuned to have higher healing per second as a result of being gradual healing over time. These tend to range between 280 and peak out at 344 with warrior's Healing Signet.

    In case of Rangers, they have good access to blocks, evades and gap openers, not mentioning the pressure they can use to force their opponents to take defensive actions during the duration of Troll Unguent. Of course this doesn't apply to every Ranger build out there, but for the other's there is still Heal As One. It's similar for Warriors and their healing signet - if you go condibunker with the appropriate build (there was a horrible dueling build based on perplexity, with so much active and passive defense that it was hard to die on it even when leaving the keyboard for 8 seconds mid fight), it almost completely negates the time-induced disadvantage. False Oasis is made viable through the Mirages frequent shadow steps and the possibility of stealth (before using it), making it possible to take the "risk" at least against melee-ranged foes (ranged ones care less about that).

    The other two on your list are kind of bad for self-healing, but that's probably due to their (as you mentioned) support aspect. Point being: they are really only inferior to T2 skills if they are used with the wrong build, or (in case of support) the wrong context. Which in their case isn't much of a problem, since "Heal As One", the-two-warrior-T2-skills and Ether Feast are generally quite good on their respective classes.

    -T4 Stuff-

    True, and they are situational enough to be unreliable.

    Healing Turret plays like a Tier 2 healing skill, gives fast restriction free, instantaneous results on par with T3 healing skills. And with combos which can be done very quickly it gives fast results on par with T4 healing skills. That's the problem.

    With combos you are thinking of using 2 or more skills already, which makes them situational. True, you could synch up Jump Shot with HT, which may come back to bite you later on. You can use the BOB and time it with HT, with the restriction that it must not have been in use for at least one 20s cycle beforehand (removing it from play, so to speak), even if it was situationally required. You could blow a kit-skill to do it (flamethrower or elixir gun), but chances are that you are using a scrapper-flamethrower build (more of a meme than something useful) or got pigeonholed into traiting alchemy (a common problem with core engi) again. Or you blow one of the two Utility slots left after choosing a kit.

    In the first place, to reach the same result as, let's say, Natural Healing, you would need 4 blast finishers (not counting the one that's already included in the chain) if you do not care for the 8 seconds of regeneration, and 3 if you do. With the Heal taking 0.75s to execute, and the time spent on BOB (3+s), Throw mine (0.5s), Jump Shot (1s) or maybe Flameblast (another 0.5 seconds) the combo of several skills would be less strong at the cost of longer total castting time. Of course you could prepare a Turret (another 0.5 seconds, and joke by itself), and use use Rocket Boots or Acid Bomb instead. Unfortunately, Turret-Utilities are kinda bad outside of SD-Builds, using Rocket Boots would mean sacrificing a Stunbreak for a Heal, and both Rocket Boots and Acid Bomb throw you right out of that Waterfield.

    Under realistic conditions you are not going to take that many blast finishers with you, let alone waste enough of them (keep in mind that the skills they are associated with have uses aside from blasting). The most you will expect are 3 additional finishers, if the user traited and conserved the "Throw mines" skill as well as Jump Shot (instead of using these to create gaps / increase pressure with one of the few strong hitting core engineer abilities).

    Elixir H is a rock solid heal. And genuinely excellent traited. A.E.D. is also amazing with just a little bit of a skill cap in using it and it has seen a decent amount of usage in Path of Fire.

    Elixir H is a solid heal if you trait the alchemy line (again, a common problem with core). A.E.D is extremely Situational, and mostly depends on dumb luck and the stupidity of foes rather than a high skill level on the user's side. Sure, PVE Mobs and Bosses will just keep hitting you, and the situationally unaware player might continue bursting you down despite the effect, but good players will call their shots when they see you using that skill. Using it reactively (the only way to use this with some skill involved), while feasible against low-crit builds, becomes grossly unreliable when critical hits are involved at certain thresholds.

    The only reason you think Healing Turret the only viable healing skill is because you live in a world where Healing Turret is outrageously over tuned and that seems "normal" to you.

    As I said, I think it is okay because I dueled against it a lot on my Mesmer, and less frequently on my thief and my ranger. I would probably be at least slightly miffed about it, if it weren't for the ridiculous Powercreep since the introduction of HoT years.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
    2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
    3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
    4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
      • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
      • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
      • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
    5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
    6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
    7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
    8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
    Photon Forge
    1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
    2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
    3. Healing, utility, toolbelt, and elite skills should be disabled when the Holo enters Photon Forge. This is the only transformation skill in the game that allows the player full access to the rest of their non-weapon abilities.
    Weapons
    1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
    2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
    3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
    4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.

    While I don't PvP anymore - I do WvW and I completely agree with everything you said here EXCEPT the nerfs to rifle. It seems your suggestions for nerfs were well thought out and I like certain things which don't only apply to holo, like the healing turret cast time increase, elixir S, weren't so harsh that it would crush core builds. I think the stealth duration is too long as well. I also like that you didn't want to crush prime light beam, but rather fix it's animation to be more obvious - a lot of people complain about this elite but it really is only strong if used from stealth.. it's animation is very obvious and if it doesn't hit, all it's done is left the player susceptible to damage and cc - at best forces a dodge.

    Rifle nerfs are not the way to go about toning down holo as it would affect core too greatly and also render ALL core weapons near garbage. If they fixed and updated kits this however wouldn't be as big of an issue.

  • Imo you hit alot of stuff that doesnt really matter.
    The problem isn't that holoforge is really good.
    The problem is that the mechanic to counterbalance how good holosmith is doesn't work as a counter balance.

    Increase heat generation and nerf ways to deal with heat and that will hit the the actual problem.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    Rifle has always been a very strong weapon.

    1. The auto attacks hit hard and frequently with quickness meaning you're going to get lasered for around 1-2k every .56 seconds if the Holo is just sitting there spamming 1.
    2. Net Shot is a 2 second duration base immobilize on a 9 second cooldown. It's literally a 22% uptime on immobilize that can be comboed into numerous other CCs/damage abilities and can be used basically every time the Holo swaps back into rifle. 2 second base is insanely high for a skill that does NOT have a cast time, windup, or animation to look out for (in melee range).
      • This skill can singlehandedly guarantee the cast on Prime Light Beam and every other attack the Holo has access to on a 9 second cooldown.
    3. Blunderbuss can hit upwards of 5-6k with a 1/2 second base cast time every 9 seconds. This gets reduced to .375s with quickness and provides the Holo with an extremely hard hitting, low/fast animation attack that can chunk most classes for 1/4 of their HP. It NEEDS a longer windup and a more obvious animation to look out for.
    4. Overcharged Shot is impossible to dodge in melee range (on point). It has no cast time (similar to Net Shot and to a lesser extent, Blunderbuss) and can easily guarantee decaps and knock downed bodies away from rezzes. It's also a long duration CC and can be comboed into many other skills as well.

    My suggestions are the increase the cast times and the animations so that people fighting against Holos can actually see what skills they should look out for rather than fighting against a neverending spam of massive damage, CC, and when they see an opportunity to pressure back they get met with a high damage block, then if the Holo is pressured, they can enter a 6 second, low/fast animation stealth and disengage every 30 seconds into a full heal.

    These rifle changes I proposed wouldn't kill the weapon lmao. If you guys think that it's only viable because it has 0 tells for the enemy to look out for in melee range, you're sorely mistaken.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Rifle has always been a very strong weapon.
    4. Overcharged Shot is impossible to dodge in melee range (on point). It has no cast time (similar to Net Shot and to a lesser extent, Blunderbuss) and can easily guarantee decaps and knock downed bodies away from rezzes. It's also a long duration CC and can be comboed into many other skills as well.

    This is THE big one for rifle in my opinion. It needs a wind up like Warrior Longbow's Pin Down where you see the charge and know it's coming.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This spec has seen nerfs, but just not the ones it needs.

    Players don't want you to go after core traits, but sometimes those are problematic.

    Players don't want you to go after core skills, but sometimes those are problematic.

    Holo is very mobile, really sturdy, has great sustain, stealth, cc, unblockables, blocks, big damage, and cranks out boons; they get in trouble and can reset the fight with s.

    Low cooldowns on everything too.

    Master of everything and jack of none.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Rifle has always been a very strong weapon.

    1. The auto attacks hit hard and frequently with quickness meaning you're going to get lasered for around 1-2k every .56 seconds if the Holo is just sitting there spamming 1.
    2. Net Shot is a 2 second duration base immobilize on a 9 second cooldown. It's literally a 22% uptime on immobilize that can be comboed into numerous other CCs/damage abilities and can be used basically every time the Holo swaps back into rifle. 2 second base is insanely high for a skill that does NOT have a cast time, windup, or animation to look out for (in melee range).
      • This skill can singlehandedly guarantee the cast on Prime Light Beam and every other attack the Holo has access to on a 9 second cooldown.
    3. Blunderbuss can hit upwards of 5-6k with a 1/2 second base cast time every 9 seconds. This gets reduced to .375s with quickness and provides the Holo with an extremely hard hitting, low/fast animation attack that can chunk most classes for 1/4 of their HP. It NEEDS a longer windup and a more obvious animation to look out for.
    4. Overcharged Shot is impossible to dodge in melee range (on point). It has no cast time (similar to Net Shot and to a lesser extent, Blunderbuss) and can easily guarantee decaps and knock downed bodies away from rezzes. It's also a long duration CC and can be comboed into many other skills as well.

    My suggestions are the increase the cast times and the animations so that people fighting against Holos can actually see what skills they should look out for rather than fighting against a neverending spam of massive damage, CC, and when they see an opportunity to pressure back they get met with a high damage block, then if the Holo is pressured, they can enter a 6 second, low/fast animation stealth and disengage every 30 seconds into a full heal.

    These rifle changes I proposed wouldn't kill the weapon lmao. If you guys think that it's only viable because it has 0 tells for the enemy to look out for in melee range, you're sorely mistaken.

    most of those can be fixed by removing quickness, and slightly changing how the animations are played out, I do agree that mouse1 on holo is overtuned in its CURRENT state.
    been shot for 2,2k with quickness, just pew pew pew kinda like rapid fire but as autoattack.

  • terrible suggestions

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    terrible suggestions

    I disagree.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    terrible suggestions

    propose something better, or do we keep holo utterly broken for longer? along with warrior and fb

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    terrible suggestions

    propose something better, or do we keep holo utterly broken for longer? along with warrior and fb

    He's not wrong though, most of these "suggestions" seem to be made out of spite.

    You want suggestions that won't utterly mangle the entire class all the way through? Simple, target the actual problem and what turns reasonable skills on core to OMFGWTFLMAO faceroll on holo.

    Photon Forge abilities: If they're "melee range" abilities make them actually melee range or close to (150) instead of 240.
    Holo Leap: With it's 2s cool down you can use it every single time with your water field. Up the cool down to 6-8s but also make it actually travel 600 units.
    Heat Therapy: I've already pointed this out months ago but the heal per second un-invested needs reducing by about 50% and increase healing power contribution.
    Flash Cutter: Reduce the damage by 12% (Yes exactly that amount go look up what it would do)
    Power Wrench: Turn it into a flat 20% CD reduction to elites. Some issues might present themselves with Elixir X but see how it goes.

    Doing these 5 to begin with would massively tone down Holosmith in it's ease of use and put you in a better position to explore other options like:

    Cool down on photon forge.
    Elixir U being a little too good atm, not sure what I would change though, would need to think it through.
    Prime Light Beam being a little too strong.
    Edit: Increase cool downs slightly on photon forge abilities, many are fairly low for a free secondary weapon. Some heat generation adjustment might be needed.

    The goal should never be to utterly gut a class but to reduce it's dominance of play. The real problem is power creep and without a concerted effort across all classes to strip down function and return classes to their core identities you can't really "fix" anything as it's all kinda busted and all kind of OK in relation to each other....unless you like to play the elite spec that got shafted.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    You guys are being overly dramatic. These nerf suggestions are very minor.

    I proposed:

    • 1/4 cast time increase on Healing Turret
    • Lock On double reveal proc turned into single proc (on-hit proc removed)
    • 7 second downtime on Kinetic Battery uptime (from 100% to 50%)
    • Reducing healing from Heat Therapy/Vent Exhaust from 650 hps/800 health per dodge to 216 hps/266 per dodge (without any healing power investment)
    • Reducing the 6 seconds of vigor every 5 seconds from Invigorating Speed down to 3 seconds every 10 (50% uptime on meta build with boon duration instead of the current 120% current uptime, 9000 healing/10 seconds to 3000 healing/10s)
    • Toss Elixir S stealth duration reduced by 3 seconds
    • 8 second cooldown increase on traited Elixir U
    • Louder sound cue on Prime Light Beam channel
    • 2 second cooldown increase on Holo Leap
    • Moving the stability stacks from both pulses of Corona Burst to the first pulse to enable more counterplay (stronger upfront for the Holo but no longer requires enemies to use more than one defensive cooldown to avoid)
    • Photon Forge doesn't have any tradeoffs. Managing heat is already extremely easy. Good holosmiths rarely overheat and reap ALL of the benefits of Photon Forge without any of the downsides. Removing access to skills outside of PF when they enter it would be a good change.
    • Longer cast times and better animations on Rifle skills

    NONE of these save for the utility/heal/elite/toolbelt skills tradeoff are harsh (this one can be optional). The overall playstyle remains the same with slight increases to cast times/animations/decreased boon uptime. Base damage and survivability remain the SAME.

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    Even with these hypothetical changes we will still dominate.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
    If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
    Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.
    They're far from useless...you just got used to busted levels of dmg...welcome back to planet earth
    The first time someone sees you, they're already thinking about kicking you out of the party..........

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @knite.1542 said:
    Even with these hypothetical changes we will still dominate.

    Okay. That's fine lol

    My suggestions are a slight shaves to Holo and will enable more options to counterplay. Like I said, Holo will still be perfectly viable with these adjustments.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

    Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @alain.1659 said:
    Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

    Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

    These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

    If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

    Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

    These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

    If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

    You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

    For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

    Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2019

    @alain.1659 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

    Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

    These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

    If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

    You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

    For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

    Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

    This discussion is about holosmith, not core engi. I do not have to suggest buffs to core engi simultaneously in order to justify my suggestions.

    The adjustments I proposed are very mild and reasonable. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @Tycura.1982 said:
    Targeting core lines and abilities hurts the class as a whole which is unjustified if you consider the state of the other engie specs.

    Ding ding ding.

    I'm going to highlight the actually reasonable nerfs:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
    2. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
    3. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
    4. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
    5. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
    Photon Forge
    1. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.

    The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:

    • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
    • THIS WAS WRONG, DISREGARD
    • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range for a marauder ammy. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
    • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
    • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
    • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
    • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

    But that stealth is also the only stealth that core engi has access to on-demand.

    If your problem is holo you'll need to consider that nerfing it impacts core engi pretty hard.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:

    • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
    • Holo leap is not a 450-range leap. The attack itself is 450 range. The leap is only 300.
    • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
    • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
    • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
    • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
    • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.
    1. Kinetic Battery still gives 5s of super speed and quickness every time it procs with no ICD. With boon duration, Holos can get permanent quickness with this trait and 5/7 uptime on super speed. If removing the Engage/Leave Photon Forge functionality helps solve this issue, that's fine by me.
    2. Why does the range on Holo leap get shorter and shorter every single time someone defends it. The tooltip on the skill says the range is 600. Someone else told me that the attack itself is 600 range but the leap portion only moves them 450 range. Now you're telling me the attack is 450 range but the movement is 300?? LOL
    3. Yes and the meta Tools Holo build has 57% base crit chance which gets bumped up to 77% crit chance with fury. Apparently all of the tooltips on engineer are wrong! Anet should fix them.
    4. A 1s immobilize is more than enough time to set up other combos. A 2 second base duration, 22% uptime on immobilize with no cast time is too strong. The immobilize on Muddy Terrain for rangers got nerfed to 1s and it had a 20s cooldown. In comparison, Net Shot is objectively stronger and more frequent.
    5. Blunderbuss needs an animation. 5-6k on a skill with an almost nonexistent tell is OP.
    6. Overcharged Shot is impossible to react to in melee range. It doesn't have a cast time and you won't have enough time to see and react to the projectile. Elixir U can also be used right after using R4 to stunbreak the knockback. In team fights, Corona Burst gives a massive amount of stability so Overcharged Shot won't self-CC anyways.
    7. I want better animations and cast times on rifle. Adding short cast time increases and clearer tells will not kill the weapon.

    Again, this is another case of someone being overly dramatic about these changes. The base damage and survivability of Holos will remain almost entirely the same. I'm mainly proposing slight increases to cast times/animations and decreases in boon uptimes. Traits like Heat Therapy and Lock On are deserving heavier nerfs though.

  • Rico.6873Rico.6873 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

    Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

    These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

    If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

    You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

    For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

    Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

    This discussion is about holosmith, not core engi. I do not have to suggest buffs to core engi simultaneously in order to justify my suggestions.

    The adjustments I proposed are very mild and reasonable. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

    When you talk about someone else (core engineer) it will be included in your discussion even if it isn't the main course
    Your nerfs affect core engineer with minimal effect to holo, which will make the chances you propose less likely to happen cause
    Anets stance is to make core and other professions viable , each with their own drawbacks

    I myself think holo should get pay for their forge mode
    Where instead of losing health when your forge mode is full you would pay health to enter forge mode

    I do think some abilities would need some changing not nerfed but changed
    putting the stealth part on another potion or replacing it would help for starters

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rico.6873 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @alain.1659 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Well all these arguments are nice and dandy but please find a solution without destroying the core engi. Delete holo I dont care. But nerfing core utilities without giving proper buffs would destroy the profession altogether.

    Please play core engi for a month in this meta with success. Then talk again. You can barely compete with core power yet you offer several nerfs claiming them to be small. If you had proposed buffs for core with the nerfs that would be something to think about.

    These changes can be made in conjunction with buffs to core kits. However, balance has to start somewhere.

    If core engi is already unviable, these changes wouldn't make a difference in terms of how much it's played in ranked. You can't justify Holo being overtuned because core engi is underpowered. That's horrible reasoning lol

    You are seeing what you want to see there. I do not justify holo. As I told you you can delete the friggin spec altogether, hell if I care. But it is wrong to nerf the core profession without giving it a chance to be valid. As you are the one that offered the nerfs, you can also state some possible buffs to make it up for the core.

    For example just like elite specs I always thought that core should have a unique set of utility/heal/elite set that elitrs cannot use. Heck even a traitline that is not usable by elite specs would be better to balance the game. I know that this is not a good one but still it is an idea to make core specs viable.

    Balance should start with balance. Not with overnerfing.

    This discussion is about holosmith, not core engi. I do not have to suggest buffs to core engi simultaneously in order to justify my suggestions.

    The adjustments I proposed are very mild and reasonable. If you disagree, feel free to explain why.

    When you talk about someone else (core engineer) it will be included in your discussion even if it isn't the main course
    Your nerfs affect core engineer with minimal effect to holo, which will make the chances you propose less likely to happen cause
    Anets stance is to make core and other professions viable , each with their own drawbacks

    I myself think holo should get pay for their forge mode
    Where instead of losing health when your forge mode is full you would pay health to enter forge mode

    I do think some abilities would need some changing not nerfed but changed
    putting the stealth part on another potion or replacing it would help for starters

    Which is fine. But I'm not the right person to suggest buffs to core engi. The skills I've talked about in this thread make Holosmith very strong. I've suggested ways to reduce some of the spam and make it easier to see/avoid certain skills.

    Core engi is kit heavy iirc so underused traitlines and the kits themselves could probably use some buffs. However, that's not what this thread is about.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:

    • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
    • Holo leap is not a 450-range leap. The attack itself is 450 range. The leap is only 300.
    • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
    • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
    • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
    • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
    • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.
    1. Kinetic Battery still gives 5s of super speed and quickness every time it procs with no ICD. With boon duration, Holos can get permanent quickness with this trait and 5/7 uptime on super speed. If removing the Engage/Leave Photon Forge functionality helps solve this issue, that's fine by me.
    2. Why does the range on Holo leap get shorter and shorter every single time someone defends it. The tooltip on the skill says the range is 600. Someone else told me that the attack itself is 600 range but the leap portion only moves them 450 range. Now you're telling me the attack is 450 range but the movement is 300?? LOL
    3. Yes and the meta Tools Holo build has 57% base crit chance which gets bumped up to 77% crit chance with fury. Apparently all of the tooltips on engineer are wrong! Anet should fix them.
    4. A 1s immobilize is more than enough time to set up other combos. A 2 second base duration, 22% uptime on immobilize with no cast time is too strong. The immobilize on Muddy Terrain for rangers got nerfed to 1s and it had a 20s cooldown. In comparison, Net Shot is objectively stronger and more frequent.
    5. Blunderbuss needs an animation. 5-6k on a skill with an almost nonexistent tell is OP.
    6. Overcharged Shot is impossible to react to in melee range. It doesn't have a cast time and you won't have enough time to see and react to the projectile. Elixir U can also be used right after using R4 to stunbreak the knockback. In team fights, Corona Burst gives a massive amount of stability so Overcharged Shot won't self-CC anyways.
    7. I want better animations and cast times on rifle. Adding short cast time increases and clearer tells will not kill the weapon.

    Again, this is another case of someone being overly dramatic about these changes. The base damage and survivability of Holos will remain almost entirely the same. I'm mainly proposing slight increases to cast times/animations and decreases in boon uptimes. Traits like Heat Therapy and Lock On are deserving heavier nerfs though.

    1. The ICD is the toolbelt skills themselves. Seriously, read the text for the trait. There are two "fast" cooldown toolbelt skills measuring at 8s. They are Surprise Shot and Particle Accelerator. You can also hit every skill on your toolbelt to activate it quickly, but then you have to wait for each to cool down, and you burned defensive skills for offense. The problem is that photon forge counts as a toolbelt skill for kinetic battery. It shouldn't. If you want to nerf kinetic battery, nerf that interaction.
    2. Oh, nevermind. You were right on the original statement. My bad.
    3. So you're complaining about chip damage getting crits... so it's stronger chip damage? I'm still confused on this one.
    4. Consider the ramifications of what you're saying. One sec immob is a decent setup time for holo, but not core engineer. Rifle is a core engi weapon, and nerfing immob shot would hurt core way harder.
    5. It does have an animation. Also, Blunderbuss only does that that kind of damage point blank on a crit.
    6. You can pretend it doesn't have a drawback all you like, but it does. If you want to throw on an additional animation for no reason, now you're just being biased.
    7. Uhhhhh you act like rifle's the problem with holo. It's not. Again -- core engineer has only 3 weapons. Pistol is outright trash, shield is niche (for prot holo mainly), and rifle is the most viable weapon.

    Nerfing healing turret AND heat therapy together would be more than enough to send holo to the B or C tier. Not that I agree with your idea for healing turret, but all you have to do is ding the sustain to keep the spec unique without rendering it useless (and core with it).

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    The rest of the nerfs are either based on a misunderstanding of the spec, or the core class. For example:

    • Kinetic Battery is actually not that strong on the core class. It's strong only in conjunction with holo because activating and exiting photon forge adds a stack. Remove that functionality, and kinetic battery is back to a relatively normal state.
    • Holo leap is not a 450-range leap. The attack itself is 450 range. The leap is only 300.
    • Hip shot is chip damage. Why you think it's a laser gun is beyond me. Unless you get a crit on it, its damage is usually in the 800-1000 range. Also, please note that the actual cast time is 0.84 seconds, not the tooltip time of 3/4s.
    • Net shot reduced to 1 second... this is a joke, right? The skill is verging on bad as it is for core engineer.
    • Blunderbuss is fine as is.
    • Overcharged shot currently knocks engineer back or eats a stack of stability as a drawback. Additionally, the projectile is actually pretty slow and easy to dodge if you're over 600 range away. If you want a windup, then don't let it knock us back/eat stability.
    • As far as weapons go, engineer only has 3 core weapons. One is completely in the gutter, one is niche, and you want to nerf the most viable option.
    1. Kinetic Battery still gives 5s of super speed and quickness every time it procs with no ICD. With boon duration, Holos can get permanent quickness with this trait and 5/7 uptime on super speed. If removing the Engage/Leave Photon Forge functionality helps solve this issue, that's fine by me.
    2. Why does the range on Holo leap get shorter and shorter every single time someone defends it. The tooltip on the skill says the range is 600. Someone else told me that the attack itself is 600 range but the leap portion only moves them 450 range. Now you're telling me the attack is 450 range but the movement is 300?? LOL
    3. Yes and the meta Tools Holo build has 57% base crit chance which gets bumped up to 77% crit chance with fury. Apparently all of the tooltips on engineer are wrong! Anet should fix them.
    4. A 1s immobilize is more than enough time to set up other combos. A 2 second base duration, 22% uptime on immobilize with no cast time is too strong. The immobilize on Muddy Terrain for rangers got nerfed to 1s and it had a 20s cooldown. In comparison, Net Shot is objectively stronger and more frequent.
    5. Blunderbuss needs an animation. 5-6k on a skill with an almost nonexistent tell is OP.
    6. Overcharged Shot is impossible to react to in melee range. It doesn't have a cast time and you won't have enough time to see and react to the projectile. Elixir U can also be used right after using R4 to stunbreak the knockback. In team fights, Corona Burst gives a massive amount of stability so Overcharged Shot won't self-CC anyways.
    7. I want better animations and cast times on rifle. Adding short cast time increases and clearer tells will not kill the weapon.

    Again, this is another case of someone being overly dramatic about these changes. The base damage and survivability of Holos will remain almost entirely the same. I'm mainly proposing slight increases to cast times/animations and decreases in boon uptimes. Traits like Heat Therapy and Lock On are deserving heavier nerfs though.

    1. The ICD is the toolbelt skills themselves. Seriously, read the text for the trait. There are two "fast" cooldown toolbelt skills measuring at 8s. They are Surprise Shot and Particle Accelerator. You can also hit every skill on your toolbelt to activate it quickly, but then you have to wait for each to cool down, and you burned defensive skills for offense. The problem is that photon forge counts as a toolbelt skill for kinetic battery. It shouldn't. If you want to nerf kinetic battery, nerf that interaction.
    2. Oh, nevermind. You were right on the original statement. My bad.
    3. So you're complaining about chip damage getting crits... so it's stronger chip damage? I'm still confused on this one.
    4. Consider the ramifications of what you're saying. One sec immob is a decent setup time for holo, but not core engineer. Rifle is a core engi weapon, and nerfing immob shot would hurt core way harder.
    5. It does have an animation. Also, Blunderbuss only does that that kind of damage point blank on a crit.
    6. You can pretend it doesn't have a drawback all you like, but it does. If you want to throw on an additional animation for no reason, now you're just being biased.
    7. Uhhhhh you act like rifle's the problem with holo. It's not. Again -- core engineer has only 3 weapons. Pistol is outright trash, shield is niche (for prot holo mainly), and rifle is the most viable weapon.

    Nerfing healing turret AND heat therapy together would be more than enough to send holo to the B or C tier. Not that I agree with your idea for healing turret, but all you have to do is ding the sustain to keep the spec unique without rendering it useless (and core with it).

    1. Mechanized Deployment reduces the cycle time on Kinetic Battery to 7 second on meta Tools Holo. If you don't want to increase the maximum stacks required to 10, placing an ICD of 20 seconds on the trait would suffice.
    2. Np.
    3. Even if the base cast time on Hip Shot is .84s instead of .75s, quickness reduces that to .63s. In other words, the Holo can laser you for up to 2k damage just over every half a second.
    4. Muddy Terrain's immobilize from Soften the Fall got reduced to 1s and it has a 20s cooldown. One second is more than enough time for core engi to setup a followup skill.
    5. It's a very minor animation even without quickness. Quickness makes the .5s base cast time into .375 which is just over the average human's reaction time to visual stimuli.
    6. You can pretend like it's not easy to cover the drawback all you like, but it is. You think I'm biased for wanting a clear animation on a short cooldown, long duration CC skill? LOL
    7. Uhhhhh you act like I only suggested changes to rifle. There are a multitude of overtuned things that make Holo OP.
    8. An increase of a quarter of a second to the cast time on Healing Turret is a very, very minor change.
  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

    It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

    Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

    Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

    all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.
    but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.
    giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.
    could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.
    some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

    PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

    You can bake self reveals into Holo skills & photon forge because you can't take away Toss Elixir S / smoke fields from Engi, which are core to the class.

    It's vent exhaust that allows PF to be online more often. Without that trait the Photon Forge really is on around a 20s cooldown heat cycle, which is still really fun, (try using Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit GM major trait.)

    in general, stealth is give to light classes as devensive/offensive tool. defensively to disengaging and offensively to setting up combo/bursts.
    more often then not light classes have fast cast, low impact abilites that when combined provide decent outcome, while heavy classes have long casttime, big effect attacks.
    hiding 1/4s casttime in stealth is not a big deal, hiding over 1s casttime ability with stealth, on a class that can sustain in a fight ( thus dont need stealth for defence ) means that they can use it more towards offence/utility.

    I want you to play mesmer with mass invis and holo with elixir stealth.
    and just count how often you can freely use one of those stealths for offence/utility ( rez/stop ) and how ofte you HAVE TO use it to disengage.

    adding self reveal to the spec would have to be placed in sooo many places. holo->stealth is not fine. steath->plb is not fine.
    stealth-> healing turret combos is questionable.
    I dont wanna make over the top suggestions for holo beccouse i dont play/know much abbout the class to make assumptions.
    but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

    All they have to do is make it so if you use a skill while stealth, you get revealed. Problem solved.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @gdubze.6015 said:
    he doesnt care, his spec got nerfed so now hes on the warpath to kill every spec in the game.

    These changes wouldn't kill holo.

    You can try to prove me wrong if you'd like.

    It would kill Holo, and core, Hammer Scrapper would be the scuffed best engi spec in PvP lol.

    Think you're underestimating how screwed you are when you have a transformation with a 6s exit prevention, that also prevents your heal, stunbreaks, defensive skills. Entering photon forge would be instant death without the stability trait and landing corona burst. All you'd have to do is immediately pop stability & target the Holo when he transforms - very often it wouldn't be at full health too.

    Combine that with all the other substantial nerfs, Holosmith would be worse than Spellbreaker on duels, teamfights, 1vX. It'd join Core add Scrapper in the obsolete but cool tier. Scrapper would be all around better.

    all those nerfs would screw over holo for sure.
    but seriously I always thought photon forge had a large cooldown, and then I saw guy just pop in and out like its nothing.
    giving it something like 20s CD after exiting forge as a cooldown would be a good start.
    could make the cooldown lower/higher depending on heat or make you unable to holo untill you have 0 heat.
    some slight nerfs here and there and we could see how it goes.

    PS bruiser like holo should never have access to stealth. EVER.

    You can bake self reveals into Holo skills & photon forge because you can't take away Toss Elixir S / smoke fields from Engi, which are core to the class.

    It's vent exhaust that allows PF to be online more often. Without that trait the Photon Forge really is on around a 20s cooldown heat cycle, which is still really fun, (try using Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit GM major trait.)

    in general, stealth is give to light classes as devensive/offensive tool. defensively to disengaging and offensively to setting up combo/bursts.
    more often then not light classes have fast cast, low impact abilites that when combined provide decent outcome, while heavy classes have long casttime, big effect attacks.
    hiding 1/4s casttime in stealth is not a big deal, hiding over 1s casttime ability with stealth, on a class that can sustain in a fight ( thus dont need stealth for defence ) means that they can use it more towards offence/utility.

    I want you to play mesmer with mass invis and holo with elixir stealth.
    and just count how often you can freely use one of those stealths for offence/utility ( rez/stop ) and how ofte you HAVE TO use it to disengage.

    adding self reveal to the spec would have to be placed in sooo many places. holo->stealth is not fine. steath->plb is not fine.
    stealth-> healing turret combos is questionable.
    I dont wanna make over the top suggestions for holo beccouse i dont play/know much abbout the class to make assumptions.
    but I do know as someone who pays attention to what my allies/opponents do, that stealth is part of the holo problem.

    I think extensive stealth is absolutely a big part of the problem with Holo's over the top sustain/re-sustain and damage. The 6 seconds of stealth every 30 seconds afforded by traited Toss Elixir S enables those nearly full heals anytime the Holo actually gets in trouble. On top of that, the re-sustain gets followed up by a CC plus burst from stealth. Literally top-tier defense plus offense in one virtually uninterruptible mechanic.

    I had the joy of dueling just such a Holo the day this discussion opened. Within the course of our perhaps 40 second duel he tossed Elixir S twice, effectively getting two near full resets without ever having to leave. Both times he followed with a CC plus burst from stealth. Nothing about that experience felt fair or fun.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    terrible suggestions

    propose something better, or do we keep holo utterly broken for longer? along with warrior and fb

    Just lost a blowout match against a team with this comp. An utterly oppressive trio of overpowered cheese.