Random Deadeye Changes: Kneeling and Stealth

Before I get to the main change suggestions, I would offer these alternatives which I've brought up before...

1. When kneeling, make the "dodge roll" stationary by default. This allows a Deadeye to gain position on a cliff/wall where it can shoot without its shots being obstructed, then be able to use the Silent Scope trait to gain Stealth through dodge without losing position so the Thief can use Death's Judgment without hassle. If a movement key is pressed when executing a dodge roll, the dodge will roll in that direction as normal.
2. When a Thief kneels, its appearance will transform into a bush (ala Divinity: Original Sin), and its nameplate will fade away. However, it can still be targeted.

If the above changes are not made, I would offer this as a possible change...

Remove the "Stealth on dodge roll" from the Silent Scope trait. Instead, move Stealth back to the Rifle proper.Now, instead of gaining Stealth through rolling, the Deadeye will gain Stealth through kneeling.

Kneeling will pulse 1-second of Stealth each second. The first pulse will take place at the completion of the Kneel. This will allow a Deadeye to setup an ambush in a position for a prolonged amount of time, but will be completely immobile. This will also allow a Deadeye consistent access to Death's Judgment without having to roll out of position.

If a Thief is Revealed (whether by hitting a target, a self-Revealing skill, or by an enemy skill/mark/paint), then the pulsing Stealth will have no effect. However, after the Revealed debuff completes or is removed, then the next pulse will apply Stealth to the Thief.

Preferably, this pulse would be restricted from taking advantage of Meld with Shadow's Stealth-extension ability. However, even if not restricted, then it would take about 8 seconds of immobile Kneeling to stack a full 10 seconds of Stealth (5 stacks of 2 seconds).

In WvW, this would allow Deadeyes to defend from walls much more effectively (not having to roll away to use Death's Judgment). It would also allow them to use cliffs and overhangs more effectively (for the some reason above as well as hiding their presence from approaching enemies). However, it would not improve their assault capability much, still being marked/painted and Revealed by enemy skills, sentries, and upgrades, and would still require different methods of Stealth if the Deadeye wished to be mobile.

In PvP, a Deadeye would still be able to contest/defend points by not Kneeling or by constantly using Death's Judgment. It would also save endurance for when dodges are actually needed.

Whatever the case, the goal is to make Deadeye Stealth into more of an immobile ambush/defense tool.

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:Before I get to the main change suggestions, I would offer these alternatives which I've brought up before...

1. When kneeling, make the "dodge roll" stationary by default. This allows a Deadeye to gain position on a cliff/wall where it can shoot without its shots being obstructed, then be able to use the Silent Scope trait to gain Stealth through dodge without losing position so the Thief can use Death's Judgment without hassle. If a movement key is pressed when executing a dodge roll, the dodge will roll in that direction as normal.

I like this one.

2. When a Thief kneels, its appearance will transform into a bush (ala Divinity: Original Sin), and its nameplate will fade away. However, it can still be targeted.

I don't like this one. (mainly because it seems unneeded and not really productive beyond the first ~2 weeks until people not reading the patch notes catch up)

Kneeling will pulse 1-second of Stealth each second. The first pulse will take place at the completion of the Kneel. This will allow a Deadeye to setup an ambush in a position for a prolonged amount of time, but will be completely immobile. This will also allow a Deadeye consistent access to Death's Judgment without having to roll out of position.

Wasn't the kneel/stand up spam partially the reason of it being changed in the first place? I don't think they'd want to enable perma stealth simply by kneeling and not moving. And tbh I'm not blaming them, because it seems unhealthy. I don't think perma stealthing is good for the game, so I'm obviously opposed to implementing another mechanic(if we can call it a new mechanic?) that enables it.

Kinda like mirage cloak? That would be kind of interesting and would be an awesome change. Dodge only in spot unless used with a direction. The other suggestion about bush though, I dunno, there aren't really any bushes in the maps lol it would stick out like a sore thumb.

@"Kageseigi.2150" said:Before I get to the main change suggestions, I would offer these alternatives which I've brought up before...

1. When kneeling, make the "dodge roll" stationary by default. This allows a Deadeye to gain position on a cliff/wall where it can shoot without its shots being obstructed, then be able to use the Silent Scope trait to gain Stealth through dodge without losing position so the Thief can use Death's Judgment without hassle. If a movement key is pressed when executing a dodge roll, the dodge will roll in that direction as normal.
2. When a Thief kneels, its appearance will transform into a bush (ala Divinity: Original Sin), and its nameplate will fade away. However, it can still be targeted.

If the above changes are not made, I would offer this as a possible change...

---

Remove the "Stealth on dodge roll" from the Silent Scope trait. Instead, move Stealth back to the Rifle proper.Now, instead of gaining Stealth through rolling, the Deadeye will gain Stealth through kneeling.

Kneeling will pulse 1-second of Stealth each second. The first pulse will take place at the completion of the Kneel. This will allow a Deadeye to setup an ambush in a position for a prolonged amount of time, but will be completely immobile. This will also allow a Deadeye consistent access to Death's Judgment without having to roll out of position.

If a Thief is Revealed (whether by hitting a target, a self-Revealing skill, or by an enemy skill/mark/paint), then the pulsing Stealth will have no effect. However, after the Revealed debuff completes or is removed, then the next pulse will apply Stealth to the Thief.

Preferably, this pulse would be restricted from taking advantage of Meld with Shadow's Stealth-extension ability. However, even if not restricted, then it would take about 8 seconds of immobile Kneeling to stack a full 10 seconds of Stealth (5 stacks of 2 seconds).

In WvW, this would allow Deadeyes to defend from walls much more effectively (not having to roll away to use Death's Judgment). It would also allow them to use cliffs and overhangs more effectively (for the some reason above as well as hiding their presence from approaching enemies). However, it would not improve their assault capability much, still being marked/painted and Revealed by enemy skills, sentries, and upgrades, and would still require different methods of Stealth if the Deadeye wished to be mobile.

In PvP, a Deadeye would still be able to contest/defend points by not Kneeling or by constantly using Death's Judgment. It would also save endurance for when dodges are actually needed.

Whatever the case, the goal is to make Deadeye Stealth into more of an immobile ambush/defense tool.

Kneeling is already pretty bad in sPvP and WvW (partially because the highest damage skill is non-kneeling skill 2, Skirmishers Shot, partially because immobility sucks), and this would make it even worse. Now players have an even easier time getting to or away from you, and you gain nothing from it. It would just kinda suck in any situation other than camping on a wall, and even then its not that great.

I will say it again.

• Kneeling should be a stance.
• While on the Kneeling stance, you can move normally but goes on one knee (crouch) when you stop moving.
• Kneeling Rifle skills are available as long as Kneeling stance is active and as long as you are not moving.
• You can skirmish with Standing Rifle skills if you're in Kneeling stance as long as you are moving.
• Toggle off Kneeling stance to use Standing Rifle skills when not moving.
• Kneeling stance will be no different than the current iteration of DJ where the DE takes a knee (crouch) before taking a shot.
• Not being able to move while kneeling was the stupidest iteration ever in an action RPG game. It never made sense.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I will say it again.

• Kneeling should be a stance.
• While on the Kneeling stance, you can move normally but goes on one knee (crouch) when you stop moving.
• Kneeling Rifle skills are available as long as Kneeling stance is active and as long as you are not moving.
• You can skirmish with Standing Rifle skills if you're in Kneeling stance as long as you are moving.
• Toggle off Kneeling stance to use Standing Rifle skills when not moving.
• Kneeling stance will be no different than the current iteration of DJ where the DE takes a knee (crouch) before taking a shot.
• Not being able to move while kneeling was the stupidest iteration ever in an action RPG game. It never made sense.

I've asked for that and the op's idea before and the only bit of feedback on both was something to the effect of, 'DE's don't use Kneel anyway, doesn't matter'. At least your version of a Crouch has a small change of not having to activate anything going from standing to kneeing so it would work better under lag and be easier for people who think Kneel sucks because they have a hard time with it.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I will say it again.

• Kneeling should be a stance.
• While on the Kneeling stance, you can move normally but goes on one knee (crouch) when you stop moving.
• Kneeling Rifle skills are available as long as Kneeling stance is active and as long as you are not moving.
• You can skirmish with Standing Rifle skills if you're in Kneeling stance as long as you are moving.
• Toggle off Kneeling stance to use Standing Rifle skills when not moving.
• Kneeling stance will be no different than the current iteration of DJ where the DE takes a knee (crouch) before taking a shot.
• Not being able to move while kneeling was the stupidest iteration ever in an action RPG game. It never made sense.

I like this idea. And i agree with your last point completely. I wanted to love deadeye, but the clunky-nes of kneeling makes it so crap and un-fun to use. A class that is otherwise quite fluid all of a sudden becomes stiff as a bag of potatoes. It's one of those ideas that sound great in theory but doesn't transition well into practice.

Stealth on dodge is why I play rifle deadeye. I want stealth on demand, not just pulsing buff, forcing me to wait 2 seconds before DJ because of perma reveal. + There is a trait +200 power when revealed.

Honestly, I can't see deadeye working well with these changes on anything except perma stealth full glass builds, and even then it's more of a flavour thing than actual functionality. More balanced builds will suffer, and for that reason I have to disagree with the proposed changes.

Sniper range should be 2500.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:I will say it again.

• Kneeling should be a stance.
• While on the Kneeling stance, you can move normally but goes on one knee (crouch) when you stop moving.
• Kneeling Rifle skills are available as long as Kneeling stance is active and as long as you are not moving.
• You can skirmish with Standing Rifle skills if you're in Kneeling stance as long as you are moving.
• Toggle off Kneeling stance to use Standing Rifle skills when not moving.
• Kneeling stance will be no different than the current iteration of DJ where the DE takes a knee (crouch) before taking a shot.
• Not being able to move while kneeling was the stupidest iteration ever in an action RPG game. It never made sense.

Then why would anyone ever "turn off" the Kneeling Stance skill? Regardless of the fact that it would eventually expire as well, it becomes mandatory to take if you want to maximize the profession and weapon's damage.

I think what you really want is compromise between the two versions that normalizes the damage to something more worthwhile (nevermind that it already heavily outclasses pistols in raw burst damage). This way players can continue to move and strafe about in combat, mitigating the wonky feel of dodge-rolling while kneeling and the time-lag in having to stab your 5 key before running out of an AOE -- or worse, the annoyance of realizing you're just standing there because your screen is so full of the guardian or elementalist's fire effect that you didn't notice you were hit with a control effect that knocked you out of it.

In addition to a new iteration of Rifle skills for Deadeye that are between the current Standing and Kneeling forms, I would propose these:

1. Sniper's Cover is moved to the #5 position on the skill bar, due to the loss of Kneel.
2. A new skill, Cursed Bullets (remember that one?) replaces the Elite skill, Shadow Meld, because even un-traited, stolen skills will more reliably grant you Stealth and thus the ability to use sneak attacks:

Cursed Bullets -- Cantrip, 30s cooldownLoose all Malice. For the next 8s, your attacks against your marked target become unblockable, and projectiles track their targets. On hit, up to 2 boons on your target are converted to conditions. Hitting your marked target while under this effect grants Malice.

@fluffdragon.1523 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:I will say it again.

• Kneeling should be a stance.
• While on the Kneeling stance, you can move normally but goes on one knee (crouch) when you stop moving.
• Kneeling Rifle skills are available as long as Kneeling stance is active and as long as you are not moving.
• You can skirmish with Standing Rifle skills if you're in Kneeling stance as long as you are moving.
• Toggle off Kneeling stance to use Standing Rifle skills when not moving.
• Kneeling stance will be no different than the current iteration of DJ where the DE takes a knee (crouch) before taking a shot.
• Not being able to move while kneeling was the stupidest iteration ever in an action RPG game. It never made sense.

That's already the case. Kneeling is mandatory to maximize the profession. My proposed change will make it not stupid.

I think what you really want is compromise between the two versions that normalizes the damage to something more worthwhile (nevermind that it already heavily outclasses pistols in raw burst damage). This way players can continue to move and strafe about in combat, mitigating the wonky feel of dodge-rolling while kneeling and the time-lag in having to stab your 5 key before running out of an AOE -- or worse, the annoyance of realizing you're just standing there because your screen is so full of the guardian or elementalist's fire effect that you didn't notice you were hit with a control effect that knocked you out of it.

Heck no. Not even close. Absolutely not.

Skirmish Shot has it's uses as well as Spotter's Shot. I won't advocate to any "normalized" version nor to lose either one. This is not all about damage.

In addition to a new iteration of Rifle skills for Deadeye that are between the current Standing and Kneeling forms, I would propose these:

1. Sniper's Cover is moved to the #5 position on the skill bar, due to the loss of Kneel.
2. A new skill, Cursed Bullets (remember that one?) replaces the Elite skill, Shadow Meld, because even un-traited, stolen skills will more reliably grant you Stealth and thus the ability to use sneak attacks:

Cursed Bullets

--

Cantrip, 30s cooldown

Loose all Malice. For the next 8s, your attacks against your marked target become unblockable, and projectiles track their targets. On hit, up to 2 boons on your target are converted to conditions. Hitting your marked target while under this effect grants Malice.

No thank you. Your suggestion obviously coming from someone who had not played DE otherwise you'll realize that this will break the Elite profession. Again, no thank you.