Are mesmers meant for combat? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Are mesmers meant for combat?

Caro.2730Caro.2730 Member ✭✭

I mean, mesmerism is not exactly a brute force, right? Most of them stay among nobles being all manipulative with politics, well, human mesmers at least. Not many npc mesmers are seen in combat. Sometimes I feel weird being a commander mesmer story wise. It's like, why would anything be afraid of me? I'm a woman in a long dress running around with a rapier, creating illusions to confuse stuff.

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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Mesmer is not a frontliner, but more of a support/harasser.

    We also see in GW2 mesmers in large numbers among White Mantle Forces, and have to deal with a few particular nasty ones in PS and in other areas, like the one risen mesmer or Faolian.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They are made for love my dear.. make love not wars.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2019

    Illusion magic is incredibly powerful. Consider Dungeons and Dragons: since early on, arguably one of the most broken offensive spells in the game is Phantasmal Killer, a 4th level Illusion school spell that offers a simple ultimatum to its victims: make the saving throw... or die. No resistances, no amount of HP, or armor can protect them. Overpower it with your will, be hardy enough to endure... or die instantly.

    Granted, an insta-kill spell would be obnoxiously broken in this game, even more so than in-context, but that's the sort of power Mesmers wield.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All of the mesmers ive seen lore wise not player character wise seem to be very well off in combat situations even if they dont directly pick up a sword and gut someone with it. They can play a major power role on combat situations without ever getting directly face to face.

    To be honest with you if i lived in the word of Tyria Jennah would terrify me. Its mind blowing to realize how powerful of a mesmer she really is. Mesmers are literally some of the most potentially overpowered users of magic from a lore perspective and its shown time and time again. cough xera....

    I would say with ease that they could be very strong combatants if they really aspired to do so.

  • Being good in a fight doesn't seem to be tied to how you do it, and skill and power, even in magic, don't seem to be directly related. Though top mesmers have pulled off impressive non-combat feats of illusion and masking (see, anything Jennah does not directly related to politicking).

    Kas is generally considered (in story) pretty good for a mesmer and is more notable for her skill at detecting illusions, dealing with liars and other mesmers, and her own illusions but doesn't seem to be considered one of Dragon Watch's top combatants. This is a guild that is generally considered more than a match for an alerted enemy fortification with even a few members, so that may be seriously relative.

    Trahearne, for example, doesn't seem to be THAT powerful a necromancer despite the Firstborn mystique, as opposed to being extremely skilled in detecting and countering Zhaitan's version of his school of magic. There's several times in the story he explicitly relies on the Commander to handle the fighting aspects, or take the lead in a combat situation, and as NPCS go, he's not bad in a scrap.

    Tyria's dangerous though, you're outside a city, you're probably fighting at some point.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Caro.2730 said:
    Not many npc mesmers are seen in combat.

    From GW2:

    • Kasmeer
    • Anise
    • Jennah, at some points
    • High Inquisitor Xera, a raid boss
    • Faolain
    • Vilnia Shadowsong, evil shaman of Raven
    • Gwen Thackeray, The Goremonger, Feared Among All Charr

    And from GW1:

    All are fairly competent fighters, and are mesmers.

    Being in combat doesn't require brute force. Mesmers utilize trickery and mind kitten to break their opponents in the field.

    not everyone has to fight with an axe to be a fighter, immagine having competent mesmer prtal entire army into enemy capital. why siege if you can just blink inside and open the gates? or mass invis and assassinate the king.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caro.2730 said:
    I mean, mesmerism is not exactly a brute force, right? Most of them stay among nobles being all manipulative with politics, well, human mesmers at least. Not many npc mesmers are seen in combat. Sometimes I feel weird being a commander mesmer story wise. It's like, why would anything be afraid of me? I'm a woman in a long dress running around with a rapier, creating illusions to confuse stuff.

    People have already commented at how dangerous illusions can be - especially since, in the context of phantasms in particular, an "illusion" might not be a mere figment, but a semi-real or entirely real construct of magic linked to the mind of the target (but still, in many case, able to hurt other targets). Mesmerism is also far more than just illusions, but covers pretty much everything that doesn't fit into one of the other magical professions. The likes of Chaos Storm and Spatial Surge, for instance, aren't simple illusions, but instead blasting the enemy with magical energy at sufficient concentrations that it is a brute force.

    One also shouldn't underestimate the effect of confusion and misdirection on a battlefield.

    @Tremor.7481 said:
    Being good in a fight doesn't seem to be tied to how you do it, and skill and power, even in magic, don't seem to be directly related. Though top mesmers have pulled off impressive non-combat feats of illusion and masking (see, anything Jennah does not directly related to politicking).

    Kas is generally considered (in story) pretty good for a mesmer and is more notable for her skill at detecting illusions, dealing with liars and other mesmers, and her own illusions but doesn't seem to be considered one of Dragon Watch's top combatants. This is a guild that is generally considered more than a match for an alerted enemy fortification with even a few members, so that may be seriously relative.

    Trahearne, for example, doesn't seem to be THAT powerful a necromancer despite the Firstborn mystique, as opposed to being extremely skilled in detecting and countering Zhaitan's version of his school of magic. There's several times in the story he explicitly relies on the Commander to handle the fighting aspects, or take the lead in a combat situation, and as NPCS go, he's not bad in a scrap.

    Tyria's dangerous though, you're outside a city, you're probably fighting at some point.

    I think "it's relative" and "as NPCs go" is probably accurate. Zojja comments in Season 2 that the Commander represents enough fighting power to be roughly a match for Eir, Zojja, and Logan put together. And that's three of Tyria's greatest heroes combined.

    Kasmeer clearly does have some significant power behind her, as did Trahearne. They're clearly a long way ahead of the average Pact soldier which, in turn, is probably a step up from the average Seraph, Warden, or charr soldier. It's just that when compared to the PC in story instances (which is where the PC is most unambiguously the Dragonslayer and not some random Pact soldier or adventurer) nearly anyone is going to look weak.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭

    Same for Thief, you think they are not dangerous and not for combat but think again when they stab you in the back from shadow .

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Mesmerism is also far more than just illusions, but covers pretty much everything that doesn't fit into one of the other magical professions. The likes of Chaos Storm and Spatial Surge, for instance, aren't simple illusions, but instead blasting the enemy with magical energy at sufficient concentrations that it is a brute force.

    I think considering mesmerism as 'master of illusion magic' is a lie mesmers (who have their own secret society and we probably should be more worried about that) propagate to make themselves look less dangerous - given Chaos Storm or their portal abilities, 'Distortion' is probably a better name for their school; playing with both minds and physics.

    The White Mantle, secretive as they are, seems to be one of the few opposing organizations with a large body of combat casters that are more often mesmers than elementalists (the Orders' average magic-user on the street seems to have spec'd Air) but that could be the result of their training focus.

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    It's just that when compared to the PC in story instances (which is where the PC is most unambiguously the Dragonslayer and not some random Pact soldier or adventurer) nearly anyone is going to look weak.

    Also worth keeping in mind. The Commander's combat abilities are almost precognitive regardless of profession.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tremor.7481 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Mesmerism is also far more than just illusions, but covers pretty much everything that doesn't fit into one of the other magical professions. The likes of Chaos Storm and Spatial Surge, for instance, aren't simple illusions, but instead blasting the enemy with magical energy at sufficient concentrations that it is a brute force.

    I think considering mesmerism as 'master of illusion magic' is a lie mesmers (who have their own secret society and we probably should be more worried about that) propagate to make themselves look less dangerous - given Chaos Storm or their portal abilities, 'Distortion' is probably a better name for their school; playing with both minds and physics.

    The White Mantle, secretive as they are, seems to be one of the few opposing organizations with a large body of combat casters that are more often mesmers than elementalists (the Orders' average magic-user on the street seems to have spec'd Air) but that could be the result of their training focus.

    Well, they are masters of illusion and misdirection. Nobody said that moniker couldn't ITSELF be a misdirection...

    The White Mantle possibly have the most prominent use of mesmers, but they seem to be common among enemy former human factions as well, such as Orrian Risen (Ravagers, and Eyes of Zhaitan seem to have mesmer-like abilities) and Ascalonian Ghosts (Enchanters). Exceptions are the outlaws, such as Bandits (probably because the skilled magic-users are mostly drawn into the White Mantle proper) and Separatists (harder to justify, since mesmerism would be really useful for what they're doing - maybe their mesmers are too valuable to risk in operations that don't require them? Or maybe their lack of mesmers is the work of the Mesmer Collective?).

    There certainly are generic mesmers among the Pact in the core content, although now you mention it, I haven't noticed it in more recent content. (That said, for all that Dragonfall was intended as a Pact operation, there were few actual Pact members there.)

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Xera.. that lady knows how to fight.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The White Mantle possibly have the most prominent use of mesmers, but they seem to be common among enemy former human factions as well, such as Orrian Risen (Ravagers, and Eyes of Zhaitan seem to have mesmer-like abilities) and Ascalonian Ghosts (Enchanters). Exceptions are the outlaws, such as Bandits (probably because the skilled magic-users are mostly drawn into the White Mantle proper) and Separatists (harder to justify, since mesmerism would be really useful for what they're doing - maybe their mesmers are too valuable to risk in operations that don't require them? Or maybe their lack of mesmers is the work of the Mesmer Collective?).

    There certainly are generic mesmers among the Pact in the core content, although now you mention it, I haven't noticed it in more recent content. (That said, for all that Dragonfall was intended as a Pact operation, there were few actual Pact members there.)

    The mesmer collective, as we know it seems to be less of a controlling group for all mesmers, but an elite club of mesmers. There is a line where the commander (If mesmer, I forget if it's order related too) mentions the reason they've never received an invitiaton to the collective is probably because they've never really stayed at one location for long recently, so they never got the sponsorship.

    Dragonfall was a very mixed forces operation. Pact people are more among the Mist Wardens though. Rytlock and Logan have a group of pact people with them while going to the Mist warden camp. They also provide the helicopters and airships (some of them).

  • I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

  • @Tremor.7481 said:
    I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

    Rytlock, at least, has the charr prejudice against mages in general because of the Flame legeion. "Mesmers, worse than elementalists." In the new season (excuse me, Saga), Flame legion cubs talk about the other legions being afraid of magic, and maybe being able to teach them how to fight with magic.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Tremor.7481 said:
    I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

    Not an innate propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Tremor.7481

    This is a taste of mesmer combat if it weren't a secret.

    And people in PvP think mesmer has no counterplay. Imagine if they could do that. Had illusions that were only visible to the target. And could teleport people into places without visiting them first. And how terrified people would be of Jennah if it was widespread knowledge.

    Also remember that elite specs are relatively recent inventions.

  • @Trise.2865 said:
    Illusion magic is incredibly powerful. Consider Dungeons and Dragons: since early on, arguably one of the most broken offensive spells in the game is Phantasmal Killer, a 4th level Illusion school spell that offers a simple ultimatum to its victims: make the saving throw... or die. No resistances, no amount of HP, or armor can protect them. Overpower it with your will, be hardy enough to endure... or die instantly.

    Granted, an insta-kill spell would be obnoxiously broken in this game, even more so than in-context, but that's the sort of power Mesmers wield.

    You are thinking of 3.5. In 5e they get a save each turn. Hp can protect them from dying instantly. And psychic damage can be resisted. These are best seen in their version of a revenant which can fail the save for the spells entire duration and even with perfect damage rolls will not die.

    That being said you are correct that some Mesmer can instantly kill people. Like Jennah has shown.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

    It has been noted by devs that the SUPER top tier mesmers do have mind control abilities. They just never use it so nobody can know about it, or make a counter.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    And people in PvP think mesmer has no counterplay. Imagine if they could do that. Had illusions that were only visible to the target. And could teleport people into places without visiting them first. And how terrified people would be of Jennah if it was widespread knowledge.

    Also remember that elite specs are relatively recent inventions.

    Mesmers creating illusions for a single person is very high level and difficult. Being able to portal without being there has been done before. In heart of thorns we saw Kasmeer creating portals down a cliff for the team, or making portals on the far side/teleporting across gaps.

    Honestly, mesmers are pretty scary as is. But Jennah is great with people and PR, and thus is loved. She is not a frontline fighter, she is the queen. I believe she actually brings that up once or twice in the game itself. Her abilities people see tend to be illusions or defensive shields, and only once do I recall her actually being offensive with her abilities, and that is when the White mantle directly assaulted DR and the traitor ministers started trying to kill the loyal ones.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

    It has been noted by devs that the SUPER top tier mesmers do have mind control abilities. They just never use it so nobody can know about it, or make a counter.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    And people in PvP think mesmer has no counterplay. Imagine if they could do that. Had illusions that were only visible to the target. And could teleport people into places without visiting them first. And how terrified people would be of Jennah if it was widespread knowledge.

    Also remember that elite specs are relatively recent inventions.

    Mesmers creating illusions for a single person is very high level and difficult. Being able to portal without being there has been done before. In heart of thorns we saw Kasmeer creating portals down a cliff for the team, or making portals on the far side/teleporting across gaps.

    Honestly, mesmers are pretty scary as is. But Jennah is great with people and PR, and thus is loved. She is not a frontline fighter, she is the queen. I believe she actually brings that up once or twice in the game itself. Her abilities people see tend to be illusions or defensive shields, and only once do I recall her actually being offensive with her abilities, and that is when the White mantle directly assaulted DR and the traitor ministers started trying to kill the loyal ones.

    I know she can do that... That's why I posted a clip of her doing that.

    The point is the PC cannot. And mirage and chronomancer are relatively recent inventions. As are weaver and reaper. The perception of soldier vs scholar is not just mechanical. But it should shift when people see non top tier scholars behaving like front liners.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The point is the PC cannot. And mirage and chronomancer are relatively recent inventions. As are weaver and reaper. The perception of soldier vs scholar is not just mechanical. But it should shift when people see non top tier scholars behaving like front liners.

    Mirage and Weaver are not "recent inventions" Those types of magic use were simply unknown to Kryta, localized to the crystal desert and Elona.

    Chronomancer/Reaper we have less information of, but could perhaps be newer styles.

    Also "The PC cannot" is perhaps not a very good method of example of what's perhaps typical or possible for mid level spellcasters to do. We are completely limited by gameplay mechanics. It's why for example, we can see an NPC necromancer summon five flesh golems at once, while the PC can only summon a single one. Or Trahearne summoning a small force of varied necromancer minions, while my Minion master necromancer in gameplay can only have one of a type of undead minion, and no more then one outside jagged horrors and the small rat-like minion.

    As exampled, Kasmeer can teleport herself over gaps, while the PC mesmer can't actually teleport to someplace they cannot physically walk to due to gameplay mechanics.

    edit: I didn't watch the video, because it's 30ish minutes long. A rather long example video to post up. It appears to just be a complete playthrough of that particular instance, so you could've said "As shown by Jennah in X instance."

    Also, Jennah is, as far as we know, the single most powerful mesmer in Tyria at the moment. So she's leagues ahead of anybody else and isn't a good example of what mesmers can do in combat, and almost all aren't even going to be able to approach her level.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The point is the PC cannot. And mirage and chronomancer are relatively recent inventions. As are weaver and reaper. The perception of soldier vs scholar is not just mechanical. But it should shift when people see non top tier scholars behaving like front liners.

    Mirage and Weaver are not "recent inventions" Those types of magic use were simply unknown to Kryta, localized to the crystal desert and Elona.

    Chronomancer/Reaper we have less information of, but could perhaps be newer styles.

    Also "The PC cannot" is perhaps not a very good method of example of what's perhaps typical or possible for mid level spellcasters to do. We are completely limited by gameplay mechanics. It's why for example, we can see an NPC necromancer summon five flesh golems at once, while the PC can only summon a single one. Or Trahearne summoning a small force of varied necromancer minions, while my Minion master necromancer in gameplay can only have one of a type of undead minion, and no more then one outside jagged horrors and the small rat-like minion.

    As exampled, Kasmeer can teleport herself over gaps, while the PC mesmer can't actually teleport to someplace they cannot physically walk to due to gameplay mechanics.

    edit: I didn't watch the video, because it's 30ish minutes long. A rather long example video to post up. It appears to just be a complete playthrough of that particular instance, so you could've said "As shown by Jennah in X instance."

    Also, Jennah is, as far as we know, the single most powerful mesmer in Tyria at the moment. So she's leagues ahead of anybody else and isn't a good example of what mesmers can do in combat, and almost all aren't even going to be able to approach her level.

    The video is linked to start at the moment in question...

    Back to the topic mirage and weaver did not exist when we visited Elona in gw1. Hence "relatively recent". And regardless of the PCs abilities the associations remain the same. Mesmers are scholars not soldiers.

    When you see better profession distribution in the Vigil, or even among the combat division of the Priory, it will be a sign things have changed further.

    The top tier is clearly meant for combat but grunts need to display that more for perceptions in and out of game to change.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tremor.7481 said:
    I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

    Not an innate propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

    Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar.

    Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I think the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    The White Mantle possibly have the most prominent use of mesmers, but they seem to be common among enemy former human factions as well, such as Orrian Risen (Ravagers, and Eyes of Zhaitan seem to have mesmer-like abilities) and Ascalonian Ghosts (Enchanters). Exceptions are the outlaws, such as Bandits (probably because the skilled magic-users are mostly drawn into the White Mantle proper) and Separatists (harder to justify, since mesmerism would be really useful for what they're doing - maybe their mesmers are too valuable to risk in operations that don't require them? Or maybe their lack of mesmers is the work of the Mesmer Collective?).

    There certainly are generic mesmers among the Pact in the core content, although now you mention it, I haven't noticed it in more recent content. (That said, for all that Dragonfall was intended as a Pact operation, there were few actual Pact members there.)

    The mesmer collective, as we know it seems to be less of a controlling group for all mesmers, but an elite club of mesmers. There is a line where the commander (If mesmer, I forget if it's order related too) mentions the reason they've never received an invitiaton to the collective is probably because they've never really stayed at one location for long recently, so they never got the sponsorship.

    Dragonfall was a very mixed forces operation. Pact people are more among the Mist Wardens though. Rytlock and Logan have a group of pact people with them while going to the Mist warden camp. They also provide the helicopters and airships (some of them).

    I wouldn't discount the influence that the Mesmer Collective could still wield. For instance, if the important mesmer trainers in Ebonhawke were Collective members, they might steer their trainees away from Separatist thinking and/or refuse to take new trainees who have Separatist leanings... and if they have the right training from the Collective themselves, they might be able to use magic to screen potential trainees in a manner that an elementalist couldn't.

    Regarding Dragonfall, I know there was a Pact presence there, but a relatively small one, meaning that you're less likely to see a random purple beam from them than you might in the core zones.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tremor.7481 said:
    I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

    Not an innate -propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

    Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar.

    Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I think the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.

    There is a god for every magic school. But that discrete characterization doesn't seem to exist within non-human religion and philosophy. The Mind domain/Dream and Raven might be mesmer-esque, but they don't call out illusion magic specifically, abound with purple/magenta, etc. The eternal alchemy is distinguished by static/dynamic/synergistic. And the Charr only seem to care for elementalist or drudic (Olmakhan) magic, if they do at all.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The video is linked to start at the moment in question...

    Back to the topic mirage and weaver did not exist when we visited Elona in gw1. Hence "relatively recent". And regardless of the PCs abilities the associations remain the same. Mesmers are scholars not soldiers.

    When you see better profession distribution in the Vigil, or even among the combat division of the Priory, it will be a sign things have changed further.

    The top tier is clearly meant for combat but grunts need to display that more for perceptions in and out of game to change.

    It started at the very start of the video for me.

    "Recent" to me is like, within a few years. Not "since GW1" as 250+ years have passed. IIRC, a Gw1 nightfall hero started the Weaver trend post nightfall.

    Vigil, Priory, Whispers, and Lionguard all show a variety of types of soldier. The White mantle showcased a huge variation of troop professions. Mesmers are a "scholar" class, but have never been shown or implied to not be completely and totally capable of combat, in GW1 or GW2.

    This is the first time I've ever seen people imply Mesmers are not meant for combat. I'm frankly surprised, given how major a role the White mantle mesmers play in their operations, teleporting troops into the center of DR, aiding and harassing foes alongside their fellow soldiers, etc.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For what it's worth, I always figured that mesmers were scarce simply because it's a less popular profession. The bulk of 'scholar' NPCs seem to be elementalists, the 'direct' form of magic. Fighting as a mesmer does take more... finesse. That's going to appeal to a smaller set of people, especially the sort of people that are making a career out of fighting for their lives. Doesn't mean a talented mesmer can't be an absolute terror on the battlefield; Konig's list up there is a pretty thorough catalog of that.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The video is linked to start at the moment in question...

    Back to the topic mirage and weaver did not exist when we visited Elona in gw1. Hence "relatively recent". And regardless of the PCs abilities the associations remain the same. Mesmers are scholars not soldiers.

    When you see better profession distribution in the Vigil, or even among the combat division of the Priory, it will be a sign things have changed further.

    The top tier is clearly meant for combat but grunts need to display that more for perceptions in and out of game to change.

    It started at the very start of the video for me.

    "Recent" to me is like, within a few years. Not "since GW1" as 250+ years have passed. IIRC, a Gw1 nightfall hero started the Weaver trend post nightfall.

    Vigil, Priory, Whispers, and Lionguard all show a variety of types of soldier. The White mantle showcased a huge variation of troop professions. Mesmers are a "scholar" class, but have never been shown or implied to not be completely and totally capable of combat, in GW1 or GW2.

    This is the first time I've ever seen people imply Mesmers are not meant for combat. I'm frankly surprised, given how major a role the White mantle mesmers play in their operations, teleporting troops into the center of DR, aiding and harassing foes alongside their fellow soldiers, etc.

    The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and file are aware of it.

    Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race.

    It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    For what it's worth, I always figured that mesmers were scarce simply because it's a less popular profession. The bulk of 'scholar' NPCs seem to be elementalists, the 'direct' form of magic. Fighting as a mesmer does take more... finesse. That's going to appeal to a smaller set of people, especially the sort of people that are making a career out of fighting for their lives. Doesn't mean a talented mesmer can't be an absolute terror on the battlefield; Konig's list up there is a pretty thorough catalog of that.

    Yeah, similar to how necromancer is a major profession, but we don't see as many of them on the front lines.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and fire are aware of it.

    Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race.

    It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

    I find it hard to believe the "rank and file" doesn't know about these professions, when interacting with groups from those regions quite heavily now in joint operations against Kralkatorrik.

    I wouldn't take NPC's as being representative of actual division of professions in a group. For example, in the minis we have various Seraph soldiers, like Mages, Archers, recruits, Juggernauts, heavy guards, medics. Ingame, we see, the recruits (the scale armor) and sometimes the "heavy guard" (various forms of CM dungeon armor, mixed with scale or human culture to be officers or sergeants).

    I could see people thinking that, until the white mantle bits of Season 3.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    For what it's worth, I always figured that mesmers were scarce simply because it's a less popular profession. The bulk of 'scholar' NPCs seem to be elementalists, the 'direct' form of magic. Fighting as a mesmer does take more... finesse. That's going to appeal to a smaller set of people, especially the sort of people that are making a career out of fighting for their lives. Doesn't mean a talented mesmer can't be an absolute terror on the battlefield; Konig's list up there is a pretty thorough catalog of that.

    Yeah, similar to how necromancer is a major profession, but we don't see as many of them on the front lines.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and fire are aware of it.

    Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race.

    It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

    I find it hard to believe the "rank and file" doesn't know about these professions, when interacting with groups from those regions quite heavily now in joint operations against Kralkatorrik.

    I wouldn't take NPC's as being representative of actual division of professions in a group. For example, in the minis we have various Seraph soldiers, like Mages, Archers, recruits, Juggernauts, heavy guards, medics. Ingame, we see, the recruits (the scale armor) and sometimes the "heavy guard" (various forms of CM dungeon armor, mixed with scale or human culture to be officers or sergeants).

    I could see people thinking that, until the white mantle bits of Season 3.

    Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster.

    White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

  • Hi Caro.2730! I think that you've brought up a good point. The number of mesmers in politics certainly lends credence to the idea that they would prefer to prevent a war rather than fight one.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tremor.7481 said:
    I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

    Not an innate -propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

    Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar.

    Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I think the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.

    There is a god for every magic school. But that discrete characterization doesn't seem to exist within non-human religion and philosophy. The Mind domain/Dream and Raven might be mesmer-esque, but they don't call out illusion magic specifically, abound with purple/magenta, etc. The eternal alchemy is distinguished by static/dynamic/synergistic. And the Charr only seem to care for elementalist or drudic (Olmakhan) magic, if they do at all.

    Yes, but there being a god for every magic school makes this a connection between human religion/philosophy and magic in general, not mesmerism specifically. It is referenced a few times that the patronage and blessing of the gods gave humanity a major leg-up in magical ability over other races, and they may even still be ahead even of the Asura when it comes to using magic without the aid of technology.

    But again, this doesn't provide a reason for any one school to be favoured. Necromancy is sponsored by Grenth, for instance, but necromancy is still relatively unpopular among humans.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    For what it's worth, I always figured that mesmers were scarce simply because it's a less popular profession. The bulk of 'scholar' NPCs seem to be elementalists, the 'direct' form of magic. Fighting as a mesmer does take more... finesse. That's going to appeal to a smaller set of people, especially the sort of people that are making a career out of fighting for their lives. Doesn't mean a talented mesmer can't be an absolute terror on the battlefield; Konig's list up there is a pretty thorough catalog of that.

    Yeah, similar to how necromancer is a major profession, but we don't see as many of them on the front lines.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and fire are aware of it.

    Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race.

    It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

    I find it hard to believe the "rank and file" doesn't know about these professions, when interacting with groups from those regions quite heavily now in joint operations against Kralkatorrik.

    I wouldn't take NPC's as being representative of actual division of professions in a group. For example, in the minis we have various Seraph soldiers, like Mages, Archers, recruits, Juggernauts, heavy guards, medics. Ingame, we see, the recruits (the scale armor) and sometimes the "heavy guard" (various forms of CM dungeon armor, mixed with scale or human culture to be officers or sergeants).

    I could see people thinking that, until the white mantle bits of Season 3.

    Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster.

    White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

    Actually, I'm inclined to think the minis are indicative of the full range of the Seraph.

    One thing you need to keep in mind is that ArenaNet tends to be... conservative when it comes to factions that are mostly allies. The Ascalonian Army in GW1, for instance, was shown as being pretty much exclusively Warriors and Rangers apart from named characters and resurrection shrine attendants. When they became enemies - during the Annihilator mission or as ghosts in GW2, for instance - we got to see their full range of forces.

    The Seraph are probably in a similar situation. Apart from one personal story instance, they're basically only allies, so ArenaNet only bothered to implement the basic warrior and archer versions. Lake Doric required that the Seraph troops get an update, and a Guardian version was implemented, but even then ArenaNet was probably still being conservative. It's also worth keeping in mind that, if anything, it might be more complicated to create enemies in GW2 than in GW1 (in GW1 it's just a matter of configuring a build using player skills unless they want to do something more ambitious, while GW2 enemies are... well, not simply a matter of assigning them a build).

    Outside sources such as Sea of Sorrows show that, at least at that time, the Seraph had a decent amount of magical support. Even if they've been underfunded, and even with the possibility that the Shining Blade has been preferentially recruiting magic-users among the royal loyalists, I think it's doubtful that the magical arm of the Seraph will have withered away entirely. While the majority of most human armies tend to be base warriors and archers, every human army we've fought has had a significant magical component except the bandits - and that's probably because the White Mantle hoovered up the magical talent (the ratio of spellcasters to non-spellcasters among the White Mantle did seem higher in GW2 than GW1).

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Hi Caro.2730! I think that you've brought up a good point. The number of mesmers in politics certainly lends credence to the idea that they would prefer to prevent a war rather than fight one.

    Which... might actually be a factor. Some professions, like warriors, are pretty much only suitable for combat (a warrior might have something else they can do that doesn't involve fighting, but that wouldn't be part of being a warrior). Mesmer magic, on the other hand, has non-combat applications. If there's a finite quantity of mesmers available, and some are going into non-combat roles, that's naturally going to reduce the number of mesmers you see on battlefields.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster.

    White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

    As said, all allied groups don't feature much diversity, but enemies do.

    Or are you really going to say the White mantle have a fully fledged out roster of people, while the Seraph have only warriors (sword/shield, and bow) and ZERO spellcasters?

    This is a very specific and poor way to approach the clear gameplay limitations and all. That's like going "Well horses don't exist in Tyria" merely because they aren't ingame. Despite the fact we have hard proof that horses exist in Tyria.

    Also as pointed out. Ascalon army in GW1 as allies: warriors and the occasional ranger. Ascalon army in GW1 as enemy, and as ghost enemies in GW2: Every profession represented, with a diversity of roles and capabilities.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tremor.7481 said:
    I do apologize, I remember a couple high-ranking Mesmers in the Pact, but generally seem to see lightning or fire versus purple mind-beams, could just be self-reinforcing (Not always a lot of time to see what the NPCs are doing as I save their hide)

    Has anyone ever noted the human prospensity for mesmer magic in-universe? A lot of people seem (often Rytlock, at length) seem annoyed by mesmerism versus necessarily concerned but not necessarily linked to humans.

    I wonder if the human war record of the last century brought down mesmer's reputation to be considered 'less' of a combat discipline.

    Not an innate -propensity. The concept is just shoved in their faces.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa is one of six gods worshipped by many humans. And she is explicitly associated with illusions and beauty. (and also water but that isn't shown much). She has her own sector and shrine in their capital city, her https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lyssa%27s_Reliquary is full of mesmer-esque phenomena, and her scriptures seem to hint humans believed she invented mesmer magic.

    As for mesmer reputation. The full extent of their abilities is kept under wraps by the mesmer collective. It is not in their interest to kill openly. Especially when many are members of nobility.

    Strictly speaking, there's a human god for every magical school, although elementalists were split among four (arguably five in GW2, then maybe four again after Balthazar's fall from grace) and guardians were probably split between Dwayna and Balthazar.

    Trying to recall now if there's been any specific mention of humans being mesmer-heavy. I think the observation has been made that Orr was fairly mesmer-heavy, and out-of-game sources have indicated that the Shining Blade is mesmer-heavy.

    There is a god for every magic school. But that discrete characterization doesn't seem to exist within non-human religion and philosophy. The Mind domain/Dream and Raven might be mesmer-esque, but they don't call out illusion magic specifically, abound with purple/magenta, etc. The eternal alchemy is distinguished by static/dynamic/synergistic. And the Charr only seem to care for elementalist or drudic (Olmakhan) magic, if they do at all.

    Yes, but there being a god for every magic school makes this a connection between human religion/philosophy and magic in general, not mesmerism specifically. It is referenced a few times that the patronage and blessing of the gods gave humanity a major leg-up in magical ability over other races, and they may even still be ahead even of the Asura when it comes to using magic without the aid of technology.

    But again, this doesn't provide a reason for any one school to be favoured. Necromancy is sponsored by Grenth, for instance, but necromancy is still relatively unpopular among humans.

    And yet probably still more popular than Charr. Spellcasting is universal, illusion magic as part of religion and politics is not. Its popularity within human society should still exceed other races.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    For what it's worth, I always figured that mesmers were scarce simply because it's a less popular profession. The bulk of 'scholar' NPCs seem to be elementalists, the 'direct' form of magic. Fighting as a mesmer does take more... finesse. That's going to appeal to a smaller set of people, especially the sort of people that are making a career out of fighting for their lives. Doesn't mean a talented mesmer can't be an absolute terror on the battlefield; Konig's list up there is a pretty thorough catalog of that.

    Yeah, similar to how necromancer is a major profession, but we don't see as many of them on the front lines.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The mainland did not maintain continous contact with Elona/Cantha/parts of Maguuma. The traditions that became Guardian passed over to the general populace, but the concept of other spellcasters in the frontline did not. And now that we have reunited with Elona and Maguuma "elite specialisation" does not imply the rank and fire are aware of it.

    Mesmers are completely and totally capable of combat. And yet they do not have equal representation in the Orders in combat divisions, even amongst spellcasters. The White Mantle is one faction of one race.

    It is completely understandable how OP or people in game might think mesmers weren't meant for combat.

    I find it hard to believe the "rank and file" doesn't know about these professions, when interacting with groups from those regions quite heavily now in joint operations against Kralkatorrik.

    I wouldn't take NPC's as being representative of actual division of professions in a group. For example, in the minis we have various Seraph soldiers, like Mages, Archers, recruits, Juggernauts, heavy guards, medics. Ingame, we see, the recruits (the scale armor) and sometimes the "heavy guard" (various forms of CM dungeon armor, mixed with scale or human culture to be officers or sergeants).

    I could see people thinking that, until the white mantle bits of Season 3.

    Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster.

    White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

    Actually, I'm inclined to think the minis are indicative of the full range of the Seraph.

    One thing you need to keep in mind is that ArenaNet tends to be... conservative when it comes to factions that are mostly allies. The Ascalonian Army in GW1, for instance, was shown as being pretty much exclusively Warriors and Rangers apart from named characters and resurrection shrine attendants. When they became enemies - during the Annihilator mission or as ghosts in GW2, for instance - we got to see their full range of forces.

    The Seraph are probably in a similar situation. Apart from one personal story instance, they're basically only allies, so ArenaNet only bothered to implement the basic warrior and archer versions. Lake Doric required that the Seraph troops get an update, and a Guardian version was implemented, but even then ArenaNet was probably still being conservative. It's also worth keeping in mind that, if anything, it might be more complicated to create enemies in GW2 than in GW1 (in GW1 it's just a matter of configuring a build using player skills unless they want to do something more ambitious, while GW2 enemies are... well, not simply a matter of assigning them a build).

    Outside sources such as Sea of Sorrows show that, at least at that time, the Seraph had a decent amount of magical support. Even if they've been underfunded, and even with the possibility that the Shining Blade has been preferentially recruiting magic-users among the royal loyalists, I think it's doubtful that the magical arm of the Seraph will have withered away entirely. While the majority of most human armies tend to be base warriors and archers, every human army we've fought has had a significant magical component except the bandits - and that's probably because the White Mantle hoovered up the magical talent (the ratio of spellcasters to non-spellcasters among the White Mantle did seem higher in GW2 than GW1).

    There is a difference between diversity and proportions.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Minis are toys. They are no more proportional than stuffed animals are of fauna. No more descriptive than a name and a visual. For example all a Seraph mage toy displays is there exists at least one Seraph who is a light armored spellcaster.

    White Mantle are a subset of a single race and post season 3 appear to have made no dent in the diversity of the Orders. In addition the Pact does not make up all combatants. A non-pact member is much more likely to be aware that guardians can serve on the front-line than mesmers.

    As said, all allied groups don't feature much diversity, but enemies do.

    Or are you really going to say the White mantle have a fully fledged out roster of people, while the Seraph have only warriors (sword/shield, and bow) and ZERO spellcasters?

    This is a very specific and poor way to approach the clear gameplay limitations and all. That's like going "Well horses don't exist in Tyria" merely because they aren't ingame. Despite the fact we have hard proof that horses exist in Tyria.

    Also as pointed out. Ascalon army in GW1 as allies: warriors and the occasional ranger. Ascalon army in GW1 as enemy, and as ghost enemies in GW2: Every profession represented, with a diversity of roles and capabilities.

    Except you aren't arguing diversity. You are arguing proportions. Other groups may have one or more mesmers. But if they don't have them in the same proportion as the White Mantle then the perceptions are different.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Except you aren't arguing diversity. You are arguing proportions. Other groups may have one or more mesmers. But if they don't have them in the same proportion as the White Mantle then the perceptions are different.

    And why do you believe that the Seraph lack diversity of forces? Because of npcs?

    Even though we can factually state that guild wars has a solid trend. Allied forces tend to be limited in shown professions, but when the same force is present as a foe, they get the whole range. Whether this is for difficulty or screen effect clutter, who knows, but it's a proven facet of the GAMEPLAY. See: GW1 ascalon army NPC's. Warriors and sometimes rangers. Same group, as foes. Monks, Eles, Necros, Mesmers, Warriors, Rangers. Same group, GW2. Monks, eles, mesmers, necros, warriors, rangers.

    So, how can you factually say that the various groups at launch GW2 lack diversity/proportions, when the only evidence you have is gameplay npcs? Gameplay is not the lore, remember. Asura do not run as fast as a Norn, and Sylvari can't jump as high as Charr can.

    Funny enough, this can actually be seen in GW2. Sunspears are both an enemy type, and an ally. Guess what? We see a wide range of units. I'm sure if we had a fractal playing against the Seraph, we'd see a full roster of foes.

    Nothing in the lore, period, implies that Mesmers are a "rare sight" for Seraph, order, or Pact forces. We can see indicators of major mesmers in the lore, most of them actually attached or or part of military units. Ebon vanguard, pretty much just warriors or rangers/archers. But in GW1's lore we can see they make use of Necromancers, mesmers, eles, and monks. Two figures vitally important to the founding of Ebonhawke, a Mesmer and a Necromancer.

    Are you going to say the Ebon Vanguard doesn't view mesmers as a frontline capable caster? Because we don't see any ingame?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    And yet probably still more popular than Charr. Spellcasting is universal, illusion magic as part of religion and politics is not. Its popularity within human society should still exceed other races.

    Again, though, this applies to magic generally. Humans have magic linked to their religion because they used to view it as a gift from the gods. All this line of thinking can demonstrate is that humans have a greater focus on magic in general than they might without that link to religion, but since all forms of magic are linked to religion, it doesn't push them towards a specific form of magic (except possibly away from revenants, since they aren't associated with any of the gods, although I headcanon that they're associated with Kormir and maybe Grenth).

    Non-Flame Charr, incidentally, probably actually have a higher proportion of mesmers to elementalists, since mesmer magic is useful to the Ash Legion (probably the most magic-heavy legion after the Flame, which also makes heavy use of necromancers) and doesn't have as much of a religious stigma as elementalism or faith-based magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    There is a difference between diversity and proportions.

    That's an argument that goes both ways. Enemy forces are often presented as balanced groups, even if in truth it's likely that they'd be biased towards one or two professions.

    Which is something else we see with human antagonist forces in GW1. Kournan forces shown in cinematic scenes in GW1 were often heavy on warriors and/or rangers, but groups found out in the wild were usually balanced parties. White Mantle in GW1 were likewise mostly Knights and Seekers in cinematic moments, Knights, Seekers, Abbots and Elementalists when allies, and the Sycophants and Ritualists only showed up after they became enemies. So it's entirely possible that the proportions we saw of the White Mantle in Season 3 were also skewed for gameplay purposes, and normally they might be a bit heavier on the more mundane professions.

    (Mind you, given that we also see very few White Mantle in GW2 using conventional ranged weapons, maybe they do have a high enough proportion of spellcasters that they can get away with mostly relying on spellcasters for ranged support. Someone - Rytlock, I think it was - does make a comment about the White Mantle being creepy magic-users).

    Bottom line, though, is that what we see ingame is not necessarily representative of what is there in the lore, let alone in what proportions - and that goes both ways.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    That's an argument that goes both ways. Enemy forces are often presented as balanced groups, even if in truth it's likely that they'd be biased towards one or two professions.

    Which is something else we see with human antagonist forces in GW1. Kournan forces shown in cinematic scenes in GW1 were often heavy on warriors and/or rangers, but groups found out in the wild were usually balanced parties. White Mantle in GW1 were likewise mostly Knights and Seekers in cinematic moments, Knights, Seekers, Abbots and Elementalists when allies, and the Sycophants and Ritualists only showed up after they became enemies. So it's entirely possible that the proportions we saw of the White Mantle in Season 3 were also skewed for gameplay purposes, and normally they might be a bit heavier on the more mundane professions.

    (Mind you, given that we also see very few White Mantle in GW2 using conventional ranged weapons, maybe they do have a high enough proportion of spellcasters that they can get away with mostly relying on spellcasters for ranged support. Someone - Rytlock, I think it was - does make a comment about the White Mantle being creepy magic-users).

    Bottom line, though, is that what we see ingame is not necessarily representative of what is there in the lore, let alone in what proportions - and that goes both ways.

    Tying into something said earlier in this thread. White Mantle has a lot of spellcasters/specialized infantry, while the Bandits tend to have a lot of "standard" ranged weapons and melee mix.

    As the person said, it's completely likely that the White Mantle recruited and elevated most of the spellcasters during the GW2/pre GW2 era, leaving the bandits to be the brute muscle (similar to the Krytan Civil War plot of GW beyond, where they had large numbers of hired mercs/thugs to bolster their ranks). So the White Mantle are the elite forces, heavy on spellcasters, with stronger warriors/rangers/thiefs (the seekers using stealth and melee), while the bandits are the normal warriors, rangers, etc.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    And yet probably still more popular than Charr. Spellcasting is universal, illusion magic as part of religion and politics is not. Its popularity within human society should still exceed other races.

    Again, though, this applies to magic generally. Humans have magic linked to their religion because they used to view it as a gift from the gods. All this line of thinking can demonstrate is that humans have a greater focus on magic in general than they might without that link to religion, but since all forms of magic are linked to religion, it doesn't push them towards a specific form of magic (except possibly away from revenants, since they aren't associated with any of the gods, although I headcanon that they're associated with Kormir and maybe Grenth).

    It doesn't apply to magic generally. It applies to magic schools. Asuran society is just as, if not more, magically oriented. But their focus is different, and the same goes for other races.

    Asura probably have more necromancers than the Charr because of high magic use, the golemmancy tie-in, and a seemingly complete lack of stigma. Per capita it might be higher or lower than humans and norn depending on how influential Grenth and Raven are, and other cultural perceptions. The Sylvari have nothing for or against, so they might be near the middle, or second to last, amongst the main races.

    It doesn't mean Asura favour necromancy more than alchemy, golemmancy, etc.

    With humans and mesmers there are centuries of tradition and an illusion magic specific goddess (vs general mind stuff with Sylvari and Raven). Not only is there no stigma, but their
    beloved Queen and several other prominent members of society are mesmers. Along with many artisans.

    Magic, religion, politics, and culture are saturated at a time when bloodstones don't restrict new magic users. It's not humans favouring it more than other schools. It's other races favouring it less.

    Edit: when Asura have holomancy and gate technology why would they even need mesmers outside of niche non-combat situations. Snaff didn't need to be a mesmer to control Kralk.
    By the time a metal legion equivalent is comfortable with magic why would they even choose mesmerism over Asura tech.
    For that matter why would any race besides humans and sylvari favour mind magic over Asura tech?

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Again, it applying to magic schools applies to all magic schools. The argument holds just as well if you were talking about elementalists or necromancers. The religion/philosophy argument does not say anything about preferencing one school over another. There does seem to be a bias among modern Krytans and historical Orrians towards mesmer magic, but I don't think religion is the reason for it. (It might be in Orr, since there are indications that Lyssa might have been one of the most worshipped gods there, but in both Kryta and Ascalon I'm pretty sure the top three were Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru; the only other place where I can think of where Lyssa was one of the major gods was Vabbi before Joko's second takeover.)

    Regarding holomancy and gate tech: Who made those? Sure, we've seen that a straight Engineer can produce such technology, but having someone with the knowledge of how the magic works probably helps.

    You are somewhat touching on an element of asura usage of magic that I was considering touching on earlier in the thread: while asura are often regarded as the most magic-focused race, it's more accurate to say that they're the most magi_tech_ focused race. The magitech is impressive, to be sure, but without their tech, asura magic-users tend to be nothing special compared to what some human or even sylvari spellcasters have been capable of. It's a distinction that's been references by the devs in the past: asura take a scientific approach to magic, while humans have a more intuitive approach, which likely means that the best human spellcasters are likely better attuned to magic than the best asura. (There's an indication of this in Sea of Sorrows, where there's a scene where a human spellcaster is trying to explain something to an asura spellcaster, and the asura's response can be summarised as "I'm confused, how did you get from A to H?")

    Despite this, though, there is an irony in that I'm pretty sure that most of the generic Pact soldiers remember seeing using mesmer magic were asura. Mesmerism may not be as popular among the asura as elementalism or engineering, but it doesn't seem to be highly unpopular either, probably in part because it likely is worthwhile to have someone with that training when building devices that operate within that field. If anything, asura probably even have more mesmers per capita than humans due to their more egalitarian education system and cultural focus on magic as a science.

    As for why charr might prefer direct magic over magitech: if you're Ash Legion on an operation, it's probably more convenient to have someone who can just cast the spells rather than lugging around equipment to do it. It's probably why Ash seems to be the most magic-heavy legion outside Flame. Given the norn lifestyle, they might well have a similar attitude - mind you, norn scholar professions tend to be uncommon outside of shamans, and even shamans aren't necessarily spellcasters. Conversely, though, you don't see many norn lugging around asura magitech either.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Again, it applying to magic schools applies to all magic schools. The argument holds just as well if you were talking about elementalists or necromancers. The religion/philosophy argument does not say anything about preferencing one school over another. There does seem to be a bias among modern Krytans and historical Orrians towards mesmer magic, but I don't think religion is the reason for it. (It might be in Orr, since there are indications that Lyssa might have been one of the most worshipped gods there, but in both Kryta and Ascalon I'm pretty sure the top three were Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru; the only other place where I can think of where Lyssa was one of the major gods was Vabbi before Joko's second takeover.)

    Regarding holomancy and gate tech: Who made those? Sure, we've seen that a straight Engineer can produce such technology, but having someone with the knowledge of how the magic works probably helps.

    You are somewhat touching on an element of asura usage of magic that I was considering touching on earlier in the thread: while asura are often regarded as the most magic-focused race, it's more accurate to say that they're the most magi_tech_ focused race. The magitech is impressive, to be sure, but without their tech, asura magic-users tend to be nothing special compared to what some human or even sylvari spellcasters have been capable of. It's a distinction that's been references by the devs in the past: asura take a scientific approach to magic, while humans have a more intuitive approach, which likely means that the best human spellcasters are likely better attuned to magic than the best asura. (There's an indication of this in Sea of Sorrows, where there's a scene where a human spellcaster is trying to explain something to an asura spellcaster, and the asura's response can be summarised as "I'm confused, how did you get from A to H?")

    Despite this, though, there is an irony in that I'm pretty sure that most of the generic Pact soldiers remember seeing using mesmer magic were asura. Mesmerism may not be as popular among the asura as elementalism or engineering, but it doesn't seem to be highly unpopular either, probably in part because it likely is worthwhile to have someone with that training when building devices that operate within that field. If anything, asura probably even have more mesmers per capita than humans due to their more egalitarian education system and cultural focus on magic as a science.

    As for why charr might prefer direct magic over magitech: if you're Ash Legion on an operation, it's probably more convenient to have someone who can just cast the spells rather than lugging around equipment to do it. It's probably why Ash seems to be the most magic-heavy legion outside Flame. Given the norn lifestyle, they might well have a similar attitude - mind you, norn scholar professions tend to be uncommon outside of shamans, and even shamans aren't necessarily spellcasters. Conversely, though, you don't see many norn lugging around asura magitech either.

    I think you are using magic schools in a different context. I am specifically referring to Denial/Aggression/Aggression/Destruction, which are now abstract concepts that might not even exist in the future, and Mesmer as a specific profession with its own identity. One that has persisted from Orrian times, is thematically tied to Lyssa by humans, and is a major part of politics and the arts in their society. The mind domain, spellbreakers, Revenants, alchemists, golemancy, holomancy, etc can contain/borrow from/resemble mesmerism but they are not Mesmers, nor do they refer to themselves as such.

    The Mind/Dream and Raven may push people to explore Mesmerism because it relies on one's own intellect and magical abilities. I do not see Charr or Asura doing this in a proportion close to humans. Conversely I don't see humans moving towards asura magitech. The Orrians were accomplished artificers and the White Mantle Portal device shows the race is fully capable on its own

    Edit White Mantle Portal devices were probably made by mesmers. Gate technology was probably made by dynamic scientists.
    And for all we know the two developed independently.

  • I skipped a lot of posts, but:

    Sea of Sorrow

    read it. We get Macha, who does fight and is pretty dangerous to the opposite site.
    And we get the Krytan navy who uses elementalists and mesmers. Both as support (propel the ships, block things, communication) and pure damage dealers. So from that point of view: even the seraphs had and have used mesmers and elementalists in combat roles. In ALL combat roles. Can't remember anything about necros on the other hand. But who cares about necros anyway.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I skipped a lot of posts, but:

    Sea of Sorrow

    read it. We get Macha, who does fight and is pretty dangerous to the opposite site.
    And we get the Krytan navy who uses elementalists and mesmers. Both as support (propel the ships, block things, communication) and pure damage dealers. So from that point of view: even the seraphs had and have used mesmers and elementalists in combat roles. In ALL combat roles. Can't remember anything about necros on the other hand. But who cares about necros anyway.

    The conversation from my perspective has shifted from whether mesmers are meant for combat to general perceptions across all races.

    What role do Mesmers play in society? Do commoners think they are meant for combat? Are they given parity to other combatants?

    Mesmers in the navy, Seraph, White Mantle, politics, religion, and artisan class speak to humanity. They don't tell us what other cultures do. It is entirely possible telling people of their lethality is universal to all magical education. But what about people who weren't fortunate enough to receive that.

    You can't prove a negative. But it defeats the purpose of showing us things like Dynamics/Statics/Synergetics, Flame Legion/Olmakhan, if the rest of their society is also secretly in proportion.

    Tldr: are some mesmers meant for combat, yes. Are even they used as much as they could be, no.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Edit: when Asura have holomancy and gate technology why would they even need mesmers outside of niche non-combat situations. Snaff didn't need to be a mesmer to control Kralk.
    By the time a metal legion equivalent is comfortable with magic why would they even choose mesmerism over Asura tech.
    For that matter why would any race besides humans and sylvari favour mind magic over Asura tech?

    Okay, two things to be clear about here.

    Gate Tech is them building two gates, and connecting them. This does not relate to portals, as you have to physically build each gate first. The ability to have the other side be "where ever you want it to be, regardless of gate being there or not" is an Inquest development of very recent years, and that gate hub was completely destroyed and all the inquest there killed, awoken (and possibly killed again), ran into hiding or (in at least one case) defected to the Pact. It's unclear if he survived the battle at Thunderhead though. Gate tech is very useful, but it's a travel method, not a battlefield relocation tool.

    Holomancy is also, just within the last few years invented. And then it got it's reputation horribly tarnished by Scarlet to the point the inventor of the new tech/style outright retired from it and sought a new path.

    It is not the same as illusion magic either, so it's not like it could replicate the same functions in combat.

    Overall, Asura would only have "recently" found reasons to swap from mesmer abilities, if they wanted to.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The conversation from my perspective has shifted from whether mesmers are meant for combat to general perceptions across all races.

    What role do Mesmers play in society? Do commoners think they are meant for combat? Are they given parity to other combatants?

    Mesmers in the navy, Seraph, White Mantle, politics, religion, and artisan class speak to humanity. They don't tell us what other cultures do. It is entirely possible telling people of their lethality is universal to all magical education. But what about people who weren't fortunate enough to receive that.

    I'm pretty sure Mesmers would be viewed as meant for, or able to do combat. Considering how many legendary heroes are mesmers.

    It's hard to think of commoners going "Can mesmers be great on the battlefield?" without somebody pointing out something like... "Gwen founded Ebonhawke and was so damaging to the Charr they literally call her Goremonger." Especially when we can find Children in DR playing as "ancient heroes", including Gwen.

    Charr would be informed of what Mesmers can do in the Fahrar. They may not be trained as mesmers, but they'd know what to expect when facing one.

    Asura, all children get education.

    Sylvari are curious, but they'd know what Mesmers can do. Especially with Nightmare courtiers and interactions with Asura and humans.

    Norn, while perhaps lacking "formal" education as compared to other races, still learn magic and combat just as well. There are known mesmers among their race, and they interact with the other races just as much.

    This would be like, isolated cases of people who don't think mesmers are meant for combat roles just as much as they do non-combat functions. There is nothing to indicate they'd not be treated just as well as other combatants.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Edit: when Asura have holomancy and gate technology why would they even need mesmers outside of niche non-combat situations. Snaff didn't need to be a mesmer to control Kralk.
    By the time a metal legion equivalent is comfortable with magic why would they even choose mesmerism over Asura tech.
    For that matter why would any race besides humans and sylvari favour mind magic over Asura tech?

    Okay, two things to be clear about here.

    Gate Tech is them building two gates, and connecting them. This does not relate to portals, as you have to physically build each gate first. The ability to have the other side be "where ever you want it to be, regardless of gate being there or not" is an Inquest development of very recent years, and that gate hub was completely destroyed and all the inquest there killed, awoken (and possibly killed again), ran into hiding or (in at least one case) defected to the Pact. It's unclear if he survived the battle at Thunderhead though. Gate tech is very useful, but it's a travel method, not a battlefield relocation tool.

    Holomancy is also, just within the last few years invented. And then it got it's reputation horribly tarnished by Scarlet to the point the inventor of the new tech/style outright retired from it and sought a new path.

    It is not the same as illusion magic either, so it's not like it could replicate the same functions in combat.

    Overall, Asura would only have "recently" found reasons to swap from mesmer abilities, if they wanted to.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The conversation from my perspective has shifted from whether mesmers are meant for combat to general perceptions across all races.

    What role do Mesmers play in society? Do commoners think they are meant for combat? Are they given parity to other combatants?

    Mesmers in the navy, Seraph, White Mantle, politics, religion, and artisan class speak to humanity. They don't tell us what other cultures do. It is entirely possible telling people of their lethality is universal to all magical education. But what about people who weren't fortunate enough to receive that.

    I'm pretty sure Mesmers would be viewed as meant for, or able to do combat. Considering how many legendary heroes are mesmers.

    It's hard to think of commoners going "Can mesmers be great on the battlefield?" without somebody pointing out something like... "Gwen founded Ebonhawke and was so damaging to the Charr they literally call her Goremonger." Especially when we can find Children in DR playing as "ancient heroes", including Gwen.

    Charr would be informed of what Mesmers can do in the Fahrar. They may not be trained as mesmers, but they'd know what to expect when facing one.

    Asura, all children get education.

    Sylvari are curious, but they'd know what Mesmers can do. Especially with Nightmare courtiers and interactions with Asura and humans.

    Norn, while perhaps lacking "formal" education as compared to other races, still learn magic and combat just as well. There are known mesmers among their race, and they interact with the other races just as much.

    This would be like, isolated cases of people who don't think mesmers are meant for combat roles just as much as they do non-combat functions. There is nothing to indicate they'd not be treated just as well as other combatants.

    I think this is turning into two separate discussions. To your latter half standardised education for legion Charr and Asura is a good point. But it is not a given for other races. Children in Kyrta knowing of Gwen does not mean she is world famous.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I think this is turning into two separate discussions. To your latter half standardised education for legion Charr and Asura is a good point. But it is not a given for other races. Children in Kyrta knowing of Gwen does not mean she is world famous.

    Children in Kryta knowing the story of an Ascalonian hero who, as far as we know, never visited Kryta is indicative of the story spreading across the land of Tyria.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I think this is turning into two separate discussions. To your latter half standardised education for legion Charr and Asura is a good point. But it is not a given for other races. Children in Kyrta knowing of Gwen does not mean she is world famous.

    Children in Kryta knowing the story of an Ascalonian hero who, as far as we know, never visited Kryta is indicative of the story spreading across the land of Tyria.

    Gwen Thackeray's family and descendants established themselves in Kryta. The most famous human Mesmer at this point is arguably Jennah. And neither necessarily spread to, or had their histories retained by, Cantha and Elona.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I think this is turning into two separate discussions. To your latter half standardised education for legion Charr and Asura is a good point. But it is not a given for other races. Children in Kyrta knowing of Gwen does not mean she is world famous.

    Children in Kryta knowing the story of an Ascalonian hero who, as far as we know, never visited Kryta is indicative of the story spreading across the land of Tyria.

    Gwen Thackeray's family and descendants established themselves in Kryta. The most famous human Mesmer at this point is arguably Jennah. And neither necessarily spread to, or had their histories retained by, Cantha and Elona.

    Gwen Thackeray's family and descendants established themselves at EBONHAWKE. Logan and his brother lived in Kryta for a time yes, but Gwen is never stated to have visited there, and as far as I recall, the Thackeray family name being well known there is from Logan, not Gwen.

    Elona and Cantha both had famous mesmers, who established themselves adventuring or in combat. Cantha, IIRC, has at least one mesmer enshrined in the major temple alongside other national heroes. We saw Elona having the Mirage elite spec native to the area, so it's a bit odd they'd have a specialized form of Mesmer training if Mesmers aren't considered among those meant for combat or frontline/adventuring.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I think this is turning into two separate discussions. To your latter half standardised education for legion Charr and Asura is a good point. But it is not a given for other races. Children in Kyrta knowing of Gwen does not mean she is world famous.

    Children in Kryta knowing the story of an Ascalonian hero who, as far as we know, never visited Kryta is indicative of the story spreading across the land of Tyria.

    Gwen Thackeray's family and descendants established themselves in Kryta. The most famous human Mesmer at this point is arguably Jennah. And neither necessarily spread to, or had their histories retained by, Cantha and Elona.

    Gwen Thackeray's family and descendants established themselves at EBONHAWKE. Logan and his brother lived in Kryta for a time yes, but Gwen is never stated to have visited there, and as far as I recall, the Thackeray family name being well known there is from Logan, not Gwen.

    Elona and Cantha both had famous mesmers, who established themselves adventuring or in combat. Cantha, IIRC, has at least one mesmer enshrined in the major temple alongside other national heroes. We saw Elona having the Mirage elite spec native to the area, so it's a bit odd they'd have a specialized form of Mesmer training if Mesmers aren't considered among those meant for combat or frontline/adventuring.

    Her husband, Keiran Thackeray is a Krytan war hero. Logan Thackerary grew up in Kryta. The family established roots there at some point.

    We are told by Nasrin "Mirages have day jobs." If even the meant for combat specializations have trouble finding work, then the profession as a whole is probably worse off being considered for combat.

    The concept of scholars who fight exists in our reality. There are doctors and scientists who serve on the frontlines and elsewhere in militaries around the world. It doesn't mean lay people consider the base profession fighters.

    Estelle and Logan are surprised in A Meeting of Ministers by what the Mesmer PC would probably consider simple mantra use. "Handle me? You can't move!" is a completely idiotic thing to say for someone who's station in life has probably afforded them better education, and is part of an organization that employs mesmers.

    Edit:
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal There is evidence Gwen could distort without a weapon like, or as a precursor to, the PC's ability. In contrast to the White Mantle who hide behind illusions and range. Even if Gwen is world famous that doesn't mean her deeds are well understood or generalized to the profession.

    I would imagine if every Mesmer was a Gwen or PC, the profession would be in a soldiers who are scholars situation like Firebrand. But that isn't the case.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Again, it applying to magic schools applies to all magic schools. The argument holds just as well if you were talking about elementalists or necromancers. The religion/philosophy argument does not say anything about preferencing one school over another. There does seem to be a bias among modern Krytans and historical Orrians towards mesmer magic, but I don't think religion is the reason for it. (It might be in Orr, since there are indications that Lyssa might have been one of the most worshipped gods there, but in both Kryta and Ascalon I'm pretty sure the top three were Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru; the only other place where I can think of where Lyssa was one of the major gods was Vabbi before Joko's second takeover.)

    Regarding holomancy and gate tech: Who made those? Sure, we've seen that a straight Engineer can produce such technology, but having someone with the knowledge of how the magic works probably helps.

    You are somewhat touching on an element of asura usage of magic that I was considering touching on earlier in the thread: while asura are often regarded as the most magic-focused race, it's more accurate to say that they're the most magi_tech_ focused race. The magitech is impressive, to be sure, but without their tech, asura magic-users tend to be nothing special compared to what some human or even sylvari spellcasters have been capable of. It's a distinction that's been references by the devs in the past: asura take a scientific approach to magic, while humans have a more intuitive approach, which likely means that the best human spellcasters are likely better attuned to magic than the best asura. (There's an indication of this in Sea of Sorrows, where there's a scene where a human spellcaster is trying to explain something to an asura spellcaster, and the asura's response can be summarised as "I'm confused, how did you get from A to H?")

    Despite this, though, there is an irony in that I'm pretty sure that most of the generic Pact soldiers remember seeing using mesmer magic were asura. Mesmerism may not be as popular among the asura as elementalism or engineering, but it doesn't seem to be highly unpopular either, probably in part because it likely is worthwhile to have someone with that training when building devices that operate within that field. If anything, asura probably even have more mesmers per capita than humans due to their more egalitarian education system and cultural focus on magic as a science.

    As for why charr might prefer direct magic over magitech: if you're Ash Legion on an operation, it's probably more convenient to have someone who can just cast the spells rather than lugging around equipment to do it. It's probably why Ash seems to be the most magic-heavy legion outside Flame. Given the norn lifestyle, they might well have a similar attitude - mind you, norn scholar professions tend to be uncommon outside of shamans, and even shamans aren't necessarily spellcasters. Conversely, though, you don't see many norn lugging around asura magitech either.

    I think you are using magic schools in a different context. I am specifically referring to Denial/Aggression/Aggression/Destruction, which are now abstract concepts that might not even exist in the future, and Mesmer as a specific profession with its own identity. One that has persisted from Orrian times, is thematically tied to Lyssa by humans, and is a major part of politics and the arts in their society. The mind domain, spellbreakers, Revenants, alchemists, golemancy, holomancy, etc can contain/borrow from/resemble mesmerism but they are not Mesmers, nor do they refer to themselves as such.

    The Mind/Dream and Raven may push people to explore Mesmerism because it relies on one's own intellect and magical abilities. I do not see Charr or Asura doing this in a proportion close to humans. Conversely I don't see humans moving towards asura magitech. The Orrians were accomplished artificers and the White Mantle Portal device shows the race is fully capable on its own

    Edit White Mantle Portal devices were probably made by mesmers. Gate technology was probably made by dynamic scientists.
    And for all we know the two developed independently.

    Yeah, and that's my point. Human religion/philosophy emphasises those magic schools. But it doesn't give any reason for them to play favourites within those magic schools. Human religion and philosophy gives them no reason to favour mesmers over elementalists, necromancers, or guardians. It's well acknowledged that the patronage of the gods gave humans an advantage when it comes to magic, but when it comes to the takeup of one such profession over another, you need to look beyond that, since all of the (playable) magical professions apart from revenants were connected to the pantheon.

    Taking a step back, in fact: warriors, rangers, and all of the scholar professions are explicitly linked to the pantheon, while guardians and thieves could probably be assumed to have inherited the same patrons as their monk/paragon and assassin predecessors. The only professions that don't have divine patronage that we know of (although I have theories as to which gods would be associated with them) are engineer and revenant.

    Revenants are still new and rare enough that nobody has a lot of them. However, if we were to base human preferences on religion, you'd expect the linked professions to be more popular than engineers. In practice, however, no aversion to engineers is present: in fact, with the exception of the various undead (which are relics of a time before engineers as we know them now existed) engineers seem to be more common than rangers among human forces. With ranger being the preferred profession of Melandru, one of the more important gods to Krytans and Ascalonians at least in GW1's time, by your argument one would expect rangers to be clearly preferred over engineers, but they're not.

    You could say that it gives them a bias for those established schools over something weird that the asura came up with, but we're not comparing mesmers agaisnt golemancers and such, but against elementalists, necromancers, and guardians (and guardians also seem to be comparatively common among humans, although it does seem to be an uncommon profession generally).

    I think there is a bias that's developed towards mesmers among modern Tyrian humans... but I don't think this bias can be explained by theology, or at least not completely. Theology doesn't stop necromancers from being disliked, and it doesn't seem to have stopped rangers from falling out of favour either (they're not disliked per se, we just don't see many of them). There needs to be deeper explanations: it's always been noted that humans get wigged out by necromancers, and the apparent drop in the popularity of ranger as a profession could be explained by increased urbanisation of Tyrian humans in GW2 compared to GW1. Conversely, there are probably cultural factors for mesmer being a popular profession among humans - especially, it seems, among upper-class humans.

    We might well be able to point to the Mesmer Collective for that. We don't know much about it, but it does show signs of being primarily a human organisation (possibly even being effectively controlled by the Shining Blade).

    Meanwhile, other races certainly seem to have mesmers. There are a couple of events and hearts in Ascalon involving Ash Legion mesmers. I've seen generic asura using mesmer magic (although they do seem to prefer elementalism, especially the Inquest), I'm pretty sure there are generic mesmers among the Nightmare Court, and mesmers seem to be about as common as any other spellcasting profession among the norn.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2019

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, and that's my point. Human religion/philosophy emphasises those magic schools. But it doesn't give any reason for them to play favourites within those magic schools. Human religion and philosophy gives them no reason to favour mesmers over elementalists, necromancers, or guardians. It's well acknowledged that the patronage of the gods gave humans an advantage when it comes to magic, but when it comes to the takeup of one such profession over another, you need to look beyond that, since all of the (playable) magical professions apart from revenants were connected to the pantheon.

    Taking a step back, in fact: warriors, rangers, and all of the scholar professions are explicitly linked to the pantheon, while guardians and thieves could probably be assumed to have inherited the same patrons as their monk/paragon and assassin predecessors. The only professions that don't have divine patronage that we know of (although I have theories as to which gods would be associated with them) are engineer and revenant.

    Humanity is not the default perspective when comparing spellcasting proportions cross-species. It may be anthropologically sound to say they aren't playing favorites. But that doesn't change the numerical comparison.

    Revenants are still new and rare enough that nobody has a lot of them. However, if we were to base human preferences on religion, you'd expect the linked professions to be more popular than engineers. In practice, however, no aversion to engineers is present: in fact, with the exception of the various undead (which are relics of a time before engineers as we know them now existed) engineers seem to be more common than rangers among human forces. With ranger being the preferred profession of Melandru, one of the more important gods to Krytans and Ascalonians at least in GW1's time, by your argument one would expect rangers to be clearly preferred over engineers, but they're not.

    If I was discussing Melandru and rangers I would approach the argument as I did Asura and necromancers:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Asura probably have more necromancers than the Charr because of high magic use, the golemmancy tie-in, and a seemingly complete lack of stigma. Per capita it might be higher or lower than humans and norn depending on how influential Grenth and Raven are, and other cultural perceptions. The Sylvari have nothing for or against, so they might be near the middle, or second to last, amongst the main races.

    It doesn't mean Asura favour necromancy more than alchemy, golemmancy, etc.

    becomes:
    "Humans probably have more rangers than the Asura because of Melandru, and the latter race's seemingly hostile relationship with nature. Per capita it might be higher or lower than Charr and Norn depending on how influential Olmakhan philosophy and the Spirits of the Wild are, and other cultural perceptions. The Sylvari have nothing against, and a considerable amount of things for, so they are probably first among the main races.

    It doesn't mean humans favour rangers more than engineers."

    For and against doesn't necessarily mean favourable and unfavourable. It is just for and against their presence in society. The magic schools are considered a "for" because Mesmers are contained within the concept. Something like the unpopularity of necromancy would be considered an "against." You take the net result and compare it against the net result of other races.

    You could say that it gives them a bias for those established schools over something weird that the asura came up with, but we're not comparing mesmers agaisnt golemancers and such, but against elementalists, necromancers, and guardians (and guardians also seem to be comparatively common among humans, although it does seem to be an uncommon profession generally).

    If the perspective is Asuran society we are. Because the magic as science crowd can now, or some day, take a role filled by those who practice magic as art. And whether science is independently innovating, building upon the arts, or having more happy accidents is seemingly irrelevant because the relationship is seemingly commensalistic. Science is progressing faster.

    I think there is a bias that's developed towards mesmers among modern Tyrian humans... but I don't think this bias can be explained by theology, or at least not completely. Theology doesn't stop necromancers from being disliked, and it doesn't seem to have stopped rangers from falling out of favour either (they're not disliked per se, we just don't see many of them). There needs to be deeper explanations: it's always been noted that humans get wigged out by necromancers, and the apparent drop in the popularity of ranger as a profession could be explained by increased urbanisation of Tyrian humans in GW2 compared to GW1. Conversely, there are probably cultural factors for mesmer being a popular profession among humans - especially, it seems, among upper-class humans.

    We might well be able to point to the Mesmer Collective for that. We don't know much about it, but it does show signs of being primarily a human organisation (possibly even being effectively controlled by the Shining Blade).

    Meanwhile, other races certainly seem to have mesmers. There are a couple of events and hearts in Ascalon involving Ash Legion mesmers. I've seen generic asura using mesmer magic (although they do seem to prefer elementalism, especially the Inquest), I'm pretty sure there are generic mesmers among the Nightmare Court, and mesmers seem to be about as common as any other spellcasting profession among the norn.

    Religious/political/artistic/magical tradition can contribute to a positive correlation. And that correlation can be weighed against the correlation of other races.

    It only becomes bias towards mesmers when you have the cultural bias of non-humans.

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