Elite Specializations without an expansion?

One of the biggest selling points of expansions, at least to me, is the new elite specializations. And I've been waiting eagerly for the new crop of them to come by once the game progressed, but now we have a situation where our post-core content is undergoing another massive rework. Living World is now going to extended "sagas" instead of contained seasons, and there is no expansion on the horizon, so what does this mean for elite specs? Is the feature being abandoned like so many other trait overhauls before it, or will we be seeing new options coming down the line? With no expansion, will we have to wait potentially YEARS to see new options, or could they be added in with the Living World?

The end of the last episode was very much an expansion level set up, and with a certain character loosing their main weapon (a weapon that they could only use because of an elite spec, and that made them one of the walking advertisements for said spec in Heart of Thorns) it seems this person is going to need to grab something new sooner rather than later. Will they be reverting to their old ways, or shifting again to something forward facing? And if this character begins using something fully new, showing off what is basically an elite spec, shouldn't we have the ability to train it sooner rather than later?

Elite specs are one of my favorite parts of this game's post-core progression, and I'm worried for their future. So while I know nothing major could be discussed here, some degree of "we're not abandoning them" would be nice to hear.

I'd rather see them with expansions, regrettably.

I think this is a good time for a "spring cleaning" for various in-game systems and content in general. If they do a good job of that, then I'll be more than happy to see what they can fit into the fray with new elite specializations. As things stand, they are in fact all "vertical progressions" that they were alleged not to be when we first heard about them; that and so much more needs to be addressed before we see more, I'm afraid.

And whats stoping the character from picking up another weapon of the same kind and continueing as its been?Its not like its only that specific weapon item that make them who they are.

@"Linken.6345" said:And whats stoping the character from picking up another weapon of the same kind and continueing as its been?Its not like its only that specific weapon item that make them who they are.

Considering using weapons correctly to create what IS the skill effects, requires both magical and/or martial training..... its not as simple as "picking it up". There are tons of bundle weapons scattered throughout Tyria, and theres only ever been ONE case where a class managed to use it differently then others that "swing hard", "throw", or"consume".

Players continually forget that Skill points (now Hero points) represented a Training system..... but like all modern RPGs, its entire concept is backwards and doesn't make any practical sense from a character perspective. The only reason it works within meta-contextual is that players would never want to use a skill that fails a lot, unless mechanically forced to; so its created this assumption that its not worth trying until you're already proficient.

Environmental weapons kind of bridged that gap.... because it works exactly how you'd expect someone trying to improvise a weapon out of something they're not proficient in using. Its too bad players outright avoid it, because its neither smooth nor as effective their weapon skills. Part of Thief's class design is using improvised weapons on steal, but players don't give it any real thought on its use if that stolen item isn't a hard CC.

If a Warrior picks up a Focus, what happens? Ele conceptually uses all weapons as a Focus, but they all manifest differently. Thief Dual wield skills are carefully considered combo actions that work off how each weapons works. Using a new weapon comes with a change in mind set, and that mind set comes from the training needed to open an Espec.

Or have we all forgotten that Especs in HOT where supposed to be unlocked as you progressed through the maps? Or that in POF the Trainers were supposed to give you missions/quests to help you progress your training (but then got dropped for the same reasons it was dropped in HOT). Both of these are attempts to harken back to the skill trainers in Guildwars 1, and early versions of Traits in Guildwars 2, that required you to travel the world and complete adventures to learn new skills. You have no idea how much I miss Capture Signets as a concept.

Not sure what the above has to do with said character/NPC picking up another bow to use in the meantime.

In theory there's no reason Anet couldn't add new elite specs outside of an expansion, just like they add new maps, storylines, achievements etc. (all things which, in most games, are associated with expansions). We don't know if they will do that, but they could. Or they could do another 'feature pack' type update which focuses on mechanics rather than story and maps and make elite specs the big headline feature.

My guess is however they do it we'll be waiting a while because I think they'd want to bring them all out together rather than one at a time and so far they've made no mention of new elite specs. But I won't be surprised if it happens before the next expansion.

(Edit: Also I suspect they'd want to put some space between releasing build templates and new specs, especially given all the backlash over having to buy more templates, I imagine if they announced new elites now it would be shouted down as a scam to force players to buy more templates.)

We need some new ones, cool ones. PoF's were kinda bleh and Im hoping we get some norn/charr themed specs to go along with the saga. That would be great~ Maybe even some eldritch stuff for necro/messmer?

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Not sure what the above has to do with said character/NPC picking up another bow to use in the meantime.

I think I was too obtuse to avoid spoilers for them to understand I was still talking about an npc and not someones character

@Thornwolf.9721 said:We need some new ones, cool ones. PoF's were kinda bleh

New ones will be cool or not based on individual perspective. I think the PoF ones were better than HoT ones. I preferred those over the HoT ones.

Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they were to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they were to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

Never say never but I can't see them ever doing that.

New elite specs often powercreep older ones and become meta. Having them monetized outside an expansion bundle would be blatant p2w. Crossing a line like that would cause unprecedented backlash. Anet may be disconnected and desperate these days but that would be suicidal.

Personally I’d like to see them go through and touch up the existing traitlines to make all of them have their own “feel” or uniqueness kinda like they did with the deathmagic and tactics overhaul. And then once all of those are all functioning to add another elite spec.

They claim elite specs don’t need expansions to come out, but we’ve yet to see them do so, and I’m not anticipating new elite specs until at the absolute soonest, the end of this saga.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

On the other hand, they get this nonsense backlash all the time from entitled players making garbage p2w complaints. Its background noise at this point.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

If new Elite Specs are powercreep and paying for them is pay to win then why is paying for them inside an expansion ok but paying for them as a stand alone purchase is blatant p2w?

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

Do I really need to explain the difference between an account unlock and a full fledged expansion pack?

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

So, in other words...likely?

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

Yes you said one way was blatant p2win and the other was not. I think you need to explain why paying for something by method A is ok but paying for something by method B is blatant pay to win.If method A payment is an account unlock then so is method B. Or explain why buying one way is an account unlock but paying by another way is not, even though you pay and unlock either way.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:If new Elite Specs are powercreep and paying for them is pay to win then why is paying for them inside an expansion ok but paying for them as a stand alone purchase is blatant p2w?

Buying expansions / buying the full game is the base line. If you were to consider expansions as being P2W, then everything is. P2W is only when you specifically spend extra money (on the cash shop) for an advantage, but it isn't truly P2W until it becomes unrealistic for normal players to compete with them.

@Healix.5819 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:If new Elite Specs are powercreep and paying for them is pay to win then why is paying for them inside an expansion ok but paying for them as a stand alone purchase is blatant p2w?

I know you’re attempting to explain it but players might not be able to buy an expansion either, which would make selling ESpecs through an expansion p2w, if using that logic.

If the ESpec is pay to win then it’s p2w no matter how it’s sold, either bundled with an expansion or sold separately.

I’d like maybe mini expansions. One type could be elite specializations only for $20-25, and they thematically tie into the current story, and those new maps have hero points for players who purchase the mini expansion

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I know you’re attempting to explain it but players might not be able to buy an expansion either, which would make selling ESpecs through an expansion p2w, if using that logic.

It's already P2W from their perspective. Introducing new elites exclusively on the gem store would only do the same for everyone else, and once that line is crossed, it's only downhill from there.

@Healix.5819 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I know you’re attempting to explain it but players might not be able to buy an expansion either, which would make selling ESpecs through an expansion p2w, if using that logic.

If people are saying it’s price and availability to the average players that determines if it’s p2w then it could be argued that selling ESpecs separately is less p2w, assuming that it’s cheaper than an expansion. For example, if an expansion with ESpecs costs $60 and the ESpecs are sold separately for $30 then more people can afford the ESpecs and it’s less p2w than selling it through a more expensive expansion since more people can afford it and be on a level playing field..

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

Disregarding the obvious fallacy of equating an xpac to a targeted account unlock, I will make the attempt anyway.

Expansions are big content packs. The first elite specs came with HoT. They were just one feature alongside many others like 4 new sprawling maps, gliding, new class, mastery system, guild halls, plenty of new weapons and armor. An expansion is sold with the intention of ...expanding many areas of the game. It may include some form of powercreep, but it's generally accepted since it's not created to be just that. Other games raise their level cap with xpacs for example.

Now, considering how Anet has handled elite specs in the past, it's safe to assume that some competitive advantage could be found in new ones (even unintentional). Having a gem store elite spec unlock would be serving only one purpose. Selling that advantage. I don't know about you but I'd consider a gem store item, whose only purpose is selling power, blatant p2w. And I'd bet that's how the vast majority of the playerbase and media would view it too.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

So you are saying something is non p2w if it’s sold with masteries, some maps and their events and p2w if it’s sold separately without masteries, the maps and events

Edit: I’m saying it’s p2w by both. Something isn’t p2w one way but not by another way.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Frankly, without an expansion coming, we're not likely to see any new elite specs in the foreseeable future. This might be for the best, though - if they

were

to be released through LS, they'd likely end up massively monetized.

Yes, I'm saying selling a targeted store item that provides a competitive advantage is p2w. Quite shocking isn't it? I guess I'm feeling bold and radical today.

Also oversimplification is often a sign of a weak argument. You know too well a proper expansion is more than "some maps and their events".