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Reaper vs Scourge (History of a Rivalry)


Lily.1935

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Within the Necromancer community we have a very strong divide between reaper fans and scourge fans. And although there may be a divide between elite specs among other classes, non feels as disconnected and as strong as this particular dichotomy This might be due to my own personal bias or it might be telling of the overall rather poor directional design of the necromancer class as a whole. These two elite specs are also so Drastically different from each other and even their core spec their play pattern doesn't reflect as closely as say a engineer would with scrapper or holosmith. Although they're not the only elite specs to make such drastic changes to the class it has had the effect of making the potential of elite specs for necromancer both extremely exciting as well as extremely divisive.

I'm not writing this to say that one play style is better than the other or that one elite spec is better than the other. We've been having this debate for years now and the only consensus that has come from it is an a stronger divide than before. I personally play both elite specs quite regularly up until the resent update and I'll likely return to playing necromancer as my main within a month or so time. (I'm taking a break from necromancer at the moment to refresh myself.) I have very good knowledge on how each of them function and their pros and cons. I'll preface this by saying right off the bat I much prefer scourge to reaper so that we can get my personal bias out of the way.

Where did it start?

Necromancer has a really unfortunate history within GW2. The devs' desired direction for the class has never been very clear and the necromancer themselves have suffered for years due to this lack of direction and extreme divide in the community of what people wanted from the class. The start of the divide begins before the first elite specs even hit the game which shows you just how this feud has evolved over time. It started with the GW1 necromancer veterans coming from GW1 expecting a rather glassy support class that cheats death through interesting manipulation through the life force mechanic. This is something Anet themselves advertised the class and overall sounded like an improvement over the GW1 necromancer which was the most defenseless support class in the game. The push and pull of Death shroud as a means to keep going after bleeding oneself out to pop into shroud so they can recover sounded like quite the play style to use. But Somewhere along the way life sacrifice and any of these other self vulnerability skills were dropped in favor of a deeper focus on shroud as tanking. New players who joined the game and hadn't played GW1 had no context for the history of the necromancer and likely didn't follow its release all that closely to see what the dropped design of the necromancer was.

With the heavy nerfs before the game released the necromancer lost a lot of its sustain but the shroud mechanic which was designed as a last hora before dipping into death the direction of the necromancer was fragmented and changing direction without a direction to go. Arena net told us that this tanky attrition was the new direction but they had a mechanic which lost outright to attrition and no other defenses to really speak of. So Arena net buffed the class with dhuumfire and then claimed them to be intended as a bursty profession and it didn't need as many defenses. But this again was nerfed and the class was supposed to be a defensive class again. This back and forth continued long into the days of reaper and its remnants exist to this day. This extremely uncertain divided design kept the players from ever being able to discern what was truly good for the class and thus the divide begins with two sides fighting to pull the necromancer in two very different directions which ultimately benefits no one.

Enter the Reaper

When Heart of thorns was announced the necromancer community was in shambles. Low to nonexistent in PvP, kicked out of groups in PvE, and mildly oppressive in WvW(If I remember correctly. They might not have been doing well, I do know Necromancer has had a pretty dominant history in WvW zergs). Balance was honestly the worst it could have been and it wasn't about to get much better. Much of the necromancer community was even calling for the firing of the Necromancer balance team. The community was getting toxic. If you think it is bad now, you have no idea how bad it was.

The age of Zerker meta was the thing in PvE. For those who complain about the condi meta, its honestly preferable to the zerker meta which pushed out all but 4 classes at the time leaving half of the playable professions unable to find groups to do fractals and dungeons which where the end game content at the time. Everone was expected to be able to cleave multiple foes and stack in a tight little corner regardless of content and spam as much might as possible with fire fields. This is how all high end content was. Dodging wasn't a thing, you'd just stack and burst. This was the entire game and if your class couldn't do that you were kicked. Most players couldn't even fight a basic enemy because of how horrible this meta was in teaching players to play the game. (Next time you complain about the condi meta just remember we could have the zerker meta). What does this have to do with the reaper? This is what the reaper was designed to fit into. Everything in the reaper's design was designed specifically based on half of the communities desires in the reaper.

Half the necromancer community looked at the necromancer and had been making requests for the necromancer's design based on the zerker meta. This half wanted a cleaving weapon and even begged for blast finishers and fire fields. They wanted a scythe and a greatsword to cleave down as many foes as possible. And to Arena net's credit they got exactly what they wanted, baring the blast finishers and fire fields. However, this deal doesn't come without a cost. Although the necromancer managed to get just about everything they wanted and if the zerker meta was still alive in its form on the HoT release the reaper would have been top of the PvE meta. But the game was moving on and the player base got this elite spec which was designed around a toxic meta. This Faustian bargain enraged this half of the player base because how they wanted to play was no longer viable.

That isn't the end of the story however as on the opposite side of the necromancer community we had quite a bit of discussion during the specialization overall of the game the discussion was quite different. Although there was a bit of crossover with the two sides at this point there really wasn't as much as you might hope. The other side really wanted to understand what the new direction of the class might be. Will it be more focused on shroud as its mechanic or life force itself. Much of this side wanted it to be life force as it was a much more flexible and interesting mechanic which could allow for support and offensive options as the sacrifice of defenses. Something more akin to the old days of GW1 necromancer. Life force as a resource, life as a resource, support skills, improved condition damage, these were all things discussed at the time and requested from the Devs to give the necromancer. There was even mild speculation that the necromancer's first elite spec would be the Ritualist due to their hint being Marjory gaining the elite spec. This didn't turn out to be correct. And with the devs being immobile with their uncertain stance on shroud and the eventual release of the reaper this side of the community mostly went silent on the matter, although didn't truly give up on these ideas.

Of the two sides it was the veterans side that seemed to get something they enjoyed from the reaper which had a potent condition build at the time. They didn't get their support they wanted but at least they found a niche in Epidemic bouncing which would later get nerfed as well as the short lived jagged horrors build. Unfortunately neither side was very happy.

Rise of the Scourge

Early leaks suggested that the scourge would be another shroud elite spec with a focus on burning and bleeding. This wasn't unwelcome at the time, although much of the community still wanted the shamanistic elite spec that could have been from the first spec that was never received. Much of the community relinquished itself to this fate of being a selfish class. A begrudging fact not even the reaper players really wanted. After seeing just where the necromancer lay much of the Reaper community begged for more damage and cried for it day and night while the Veterans still just wanted their self sacrifice support spec. Scourge didn't look to be that promise so players began speculating on what the elite could do and the consensuses seemed to be that it better not push the reaper out of its spot in the meta(what little it maintained as a spot that is), which many players were concerned it would as they expected scourge to be a proper condition spec.

Come the reveal trailer of the scourge the fissure in the community really started to show its ugly head. Much of the player base, mostly Veterans of GW1, were so ready to get rid of shroud as their mechanic that they rejoiced at the sight of this new elite spec which had genuine excitement from this part of the community. A piece of the community that hadn't gotten even a taste of the play style they loved in the whole 5 years leading to the release of Path of fire. Skepticism among the community and outside still questioned if this direction would be enough to put them in use in the game modes as it was so radically different from anything we've seen in GW2 up until this point. But finally the Veterans had something to be excited about. And the Reaper players LOATHED it!

The conflict of the reaper players wasn't unfounded to be perfectly fair to them. They were in a tenuous spot in the meta as it was and a new spec was coming out that did what they were trying to do with their condi builds but better. They saw the scourge as their replacement, an elite spec that didn't cater to them which soured the response of scourge from them. Scourge was nothing like reaper, it wasn't a shroud user but a totem user more akin to Ritualist or a shaman in other games with some necromancer flair. And players who generally enjoy what the reaper gives are unlikely to translate over to scourge because the crossover appeal just wasn't there. Their appeal was independent of each other.

Scourge quickly found itself at the top of the meta in PvE, PvP and WvW. Some of these they stayed there longer than others. Scourge was one of the best in the very earliest days of PvE much like the Lich form build on reaper prior to it, but it was never as strong when it was strong. But it was like this due to bugs which got patched out leaving the scourge as a decent option if nothing else. Its place in PvE would be unusual at times, moving up and down between being one of the weakest classes where epidemic wasn't needed and just the weakest class. But just because it wasn't that great in PvE didn't mean reaper was fairing better. It wasn't. Scourge and reaper would trade places based on raid fight here and there but never overtaking the versatility the scourge naturally brought.

In PvP the story is quite a bit different. Up until recently the scourge kept out many of the other classes from being competitive because of how strong their aoe was. This mostly impacted melee classes and specs so Reaper was oppressed heavily by the scourge which only furthered the reaper's hatred for the elite spec. But the feeling was mutual as this was only the modern evolution of the old argument of the GW1 veteran vs New Age Necromancer.

WvW the story is a bit disastrous. Scourge was extremely oppressive, far more than it ever was in PvP due to its massive radius. Dozens of nerfs to the class to try and cull this problem that was caused primarily by a single trait without removing the problem. Anet continued to treat the symptoms of the issue with the scourge but never the problem itself. A problem that still occurs to this day. Scourge was only used in one method of play though. Zerging. Scourge was a rather poor choice for roaming, reaper being far stronger in this regard.

Given the context of the history of the necromancer and its community scourge was always destined to be divisive. Arena net finally giving the other half of the community a little bit of what they wanted would enrage the other half as that half was enraged by the reaper. So this old divide in the community continues. Nothing had really changed with the introduction of the scourge. Giving one side something they want would enrage the other.

Where do was stand now?

The rivalry is taxing the community pretty hard. Much of the big names of the necromancer have long left the community. Scourge players have lost a lot of ground as of late as the reaper seems to be the more popular of the two elite specs. This isn't entirely surprising as the Necromancer in GW1 wasn't all that popular due to how difficult it was to play and use. Reaper and Scourge cater to vastly different players and trying to discuss balance with each other about each other's spec is almost as difficult as trying to discuss balancing a warrior and an elementalist if they were one in the same class! Reaper players telling the scourge player to "Just play reaper" is about the same as saying to them "Just play warrior". Or vis versa. If one isn't viable the alternative isn't an option for these players. And given the context of the lack of design direction the necromancer has had since the Alpha testing of GW2 is anyone really surprised?

Scourge and Reaper players wouldn't pick the same class if they were all sent to another MMO. If they went over to WoW scourge players might favor Shaman or Warlock while Reaper would probably prefer Death knight. And in a future game of the Guild Wars franchise, be it Guild Wars 3 or Guild Wars: Saga of Tyria, it might be best for Arena net to just straight up divorce the community in two separate classes entirely. But what we have now is a major mess that I highly doubt arena net could fix. And I'm sure they don't keep track of who in this community is a Reaper main and who is a Scourge main to get a better context of where both sides are coming from.

I Highly doubt the feud between Reaper and Scourge will end even with my essay on this matter. And I doubt Anet will read it all as its not in bit sized bulletins. But perhaps I can give a bit of a better context on the place of where we're all coming from.

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@SinisterSlay.6973 said:An interesting read. I've been a Necro for years and never knew there was a rivalry. I just assumed they were all different play styles and people should go with the one they are most comfortable with.

Its actually more a clickbait title. But this is more getting a perspective on why the community can't seem have even a minor agreement on things. There is also the issue of parts of other sides of the community trying to suggest balance changes for the other without even enjoying the other spec.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@SinisterSlay.6973 said:An interesting read. I've been a Necro for years and never knew there was a rivalry. I just assumed they were all different play styles and people should go with the one they are most comfortable with.

Its actually more a clickbait title. But this is more getting a perspective on why the community can't seem have even a minor agreement on things. There is also the issue of parts of other sides of the community trying to suggest balance changes for the other without even enjoying the other spec.

personally I saw less between necro specs and more between other classes wanting necro nerfed, especially retribution from warriors who were angry about being ruined by boon corrupts and guardians, oh boy does it sting. Yeah there are some reapers who complained but few I think.

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I think the rivalry might end when the next E-spec comes rolling out, if it ever does. Im pretty sure given time they will both find their place, it might be another spec that might cement that footing and I think it might be needed. Something new and different while similar to the current play it has, something that can be more than what currently is but not over weigh or hinder any of what necromancer has been.

Something perhaps even darker...? Who knows.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:I think the rivalry might end when the next E-spec comes rolling out, if it ever does. Im pretty sure given time they will both find their place, it might be another spec that might cement that footing and I think it might be needed. Something new and different while similar to the current play it has, something that can be more than what currently is but not over weigh or hinder any of what necromancer has been.

Something perhaps even darker...? Who knows.

I'm of the opinion that there needs to be 2 shroud specs and 2 life force specs like scourge. this to me would be best. What the reapers and scourge's want are too different to satisfy both with a single new spec. But I'm willing to be wrong.

I also don't see the necro getting darker. We're already dark. Scourge summons lost souls I to shades to fight foes and damn their foes to the realm of torment and the reaper is literally an avatar of death. I think the new specs will be equally as dark.

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I must say that there is a lot of biased point in this wall of text.

I don't know if there really was a rivalry between scourge and reaper, what's sure is that there was a rivalry between players that wanted to play condi damage and players wanted to play power damage.

I more or less agree with the first part: Where did it start?

Veteran players coming from GW1 (including me) really felt that the evolution of the necromancer from GW1 to GW2 was a bit to much of a stretch. I don't know if ANet wavered between defensive and bursty concepts but what's sure is that the necromancer was underperforming at release in both defensive and burst aspect. I'll be honest and say that I still think that the necromancer shouldn't have access to burn and that dhuumfire is still the worst thing that ANet did in the vanilla game (The necromancer got so many nerfs to fit this thing that it still make me sick at heart).

All in all, a first ideologic schism appeared quickly, opposing players that glorified the shroud as a 2nd life bar and thus that loathed it. A schism created by the fact that the shroud ultimately wear to many hats at the same time without being able to really specialize in anything. This wasn't a great divide but in the context of an all around weak profession it was already enough for heated arguments.

Enter the reaper

To be accurate, while PvP and WvW were slowly becoming more welcoming to the necromancer just before HoT, PvE players were asking for something that fit their own needs. The reaper was just that, a tailored spec fiting a PvE design and It somehow worked in the limit of what was asked by the players. Honnestly, the reaper was a good addition to the necromancer as a "lazily designed" spec. It introduced a new playstyle fiting to the core necromancer's design.

Before talking about what divided the necromancer's community even more with reaper, we have to talk about what started to divide GW1 veteran players with the introduction of the revenant: the ritualist. A part of the veteran community chose to acknowledge the revenant as the successor of this GW1 profession while another believe that the ritualist's inheritance belong to the GW2 necromancer. This is the second schism in the necromancer's community.

I think that this is where the third shism in the community happen. On one side, necromancer's players wanted power damage to be finally "viable" and on the other condi users felt that the necromancer/reaper was in an almost good spot. I think both were right in their objectif but players put deathly chill as the point of discord and this is where things have gone astray.

Note that all along, the first schisms continued to divide players in their own right as the second and third entered the fray to tear everything apart even more.

Rise of the scourge

As the scourge came as a seemingly condition damage e-spec, the actor of the third schism used it as an excuse to push the reaper toward power damage (which is more or less done and isn't without it's share of consequences). The actor of the second schism entered in a cold war where some see scourge as a ritualist and other not. While the first schism actor still stand strong on their positions.

This is basicaly where the necromancer's community stand. I don't think there is that much of a rivalry between reaper and scourge per say. For me it's more of a combination of the first and second schism that fragment even more the community. (Not that the third can't play a role in this, but at best it can only be a minor role now.)

Ultimately, we all have different beliefs and point of views. We all want the necromancer to fare better in the game but each of us seek a different path while ANet continue to follow it's own path.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:I must say that there is a lot of biased point in this wall of text.

I don't know if there really was a rivalry between scourge and reaper, what's sure is that there was a rivalry between players that wanted to play condi damage and players wanted to play power damage.

I more or less agree with the first part: Where did it start?

Veteran players coming from GW1 (including me) really felt that the evolution of the necromancer from GW1 to GW2 was a bit to much of a stretch. I don't know if ANet wavered between defensive and bursty concepts but what's sure is that the necromancer was underperforming at release in both defensive and burst aspect. I'll be honest and say that I still think that the necromancer shouldn't have access to burn and that dhuumfire is still the worst thing that ANet did in the vanilla game (The necromancer got so many nerfs to fit this thing that it still make me sick at heart).

All in all, a first ideologic schism appeared quickly, opposing players that glorified the shroud as a 2nd life bar and thus that loathed it. A schism created by the fact that the shroud ultimately wear to many hats at the same time without being able to really specialize in anything. This wasn't a great divide but in the context of an all around weak profession it was already enough for heated arguments.

Enter the reaper

To be accurate, while PvP and WvW were slowly becoming more welcoming to the necromancer just before HoT, PvE players were asking for something that fit their own needs. The reaper was just that, a tailored spec fiting a PvE design and It somehow worked in the limit of what was asked by the players. Honnestly, the reaper was a good addition to the necromancer as a "lazily designed" spec. It introduced a new playstyle fiting to the core necromancer's design.

Before talking about what divided the necromancer's community even more with reaper, we have to talk about what started to divide GW1 veteran players with the introduction of the revenant: the ritualist. A part of the veteran community chose to acknowledge the revenant as the successor of this GW1 profession while another believe that the ritualist's inheritance belong to the GW2 necromancer. This is the second schism in the necromancer's community.

I think that this is where the third shism in the community happen. On one side, necromancer's players wanted power damage to be finally "viable" and on the other condi users felt that the necromancer/reaper was in an almost good spot. I think both were right in their objectif but players put deathly chill as the point of discord and this is where things have gone astray.

Note that all along, the first schisms continued to divide players in their own right as the second and third entered the fray to tear everything apart even more.

Rise of the scourge

As the scourge came as a seemingly condition damage e-spec, the actor of the third schism used it as an excuse to push the reaper toward power damage (which is more or less done and isn't without it's share of consequences). The actor of the second schism entered in a cold war where some see scourge as a ritualist and other not. While the first schism actor still stand strong on their positions.

This is basicaly where the necromancer's community stand. I don't think there is that much of a rivalry between reaper and scourge per say. For me it's more of a combination of the first and second schism that fragment even more the community. (Not that the third can't play a role in this, but at best it can only be a minor role now.)

Ultimately, we all have different beliefs and point of views. We all want the necromancer to fare better in the game but each of us seek a different path while ANet continue to follow it's own path.

There is absolutely vitriol from the necromancer community towards the other specs. I've seen it, I've read it I wouldn't even have made this post if I hadn't experienced it. My Bias aside, this isn't a topic that can be had without bias. You yourself show quite a bit of bias in your post thinking that Revenant was a fissure in the community when it most certainly was not. It took space from the Necromancer, yes, but it also took it from each of the other classes too. It was massively complained about by all of the other communities. Especially thief and guardian. So it didn't create any form of Fissure. Just a loss of dedicated players.

As for the Revenant and ritualist debate. No. I played Ritualist extensively in GW1 as well as Mesmer, necromancer and dervish. its closest parallel is dervish not Ritualist. However, we have early interviews with the devs that confirms the spiritual successor of the ritualist was..... Engineer..... This isn't up for debate, it was stated by the devs. You want to believe otherwise you're living in a fantasy. Revenant at best pays homage to the ritualist. But no more homage to it than the necromancer does. But that's your bias, not mine. Most of the Veteran players know that the successor is Engineer. But that's off topic.

back on the Rivalry. At the moment the necromancer community is nail biting. I've seen a lot of blame thrown around at the scourge for why the reaper and core have also gotten hit with nerfs, believing it to be the result of the scourge. This is something I've witnessed on the forums as well as in games and on discord servers. The hatred for the scourge exists in the necromancer community and there was distaste from the veteran players as well for reaper. Although as you mentioned it was more against shroud, than anything else. Some players love shroud, other's hate it. The title of my post isn't supposed to be quite taken literally. I'm looking at why the schism exists in the first place. Reaper and Scourge just act as perfect avatars of that Schism.

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Why should any necro player rival another one? Does that make sense? Do I lose something on reaper when others play scourge or core?

I don't care about damage types. I have only one issue with scourge and that is its onesided design. It's a 100% team fight spec with poor survivability. While any other elite spec in the game can be built to a decent solo experience (even firebrand), scourge can not.

I hate to have to rely on my team performance to have an impact in a fight. I am often the one who carries a fight and scourge is the last spec that meets the requirement to do so. As the result scourge is a useless spec to me.

Anyone who now tries to tell me that scourge can carry in solo queue: Get out of bronze or silver division and then come back!

The OP stated necro balancing was bad when reaper was designed. That's only true for pve. Berserker wellomancer was great for wvw and core necro had also great pvp builds at that time. One was soldier wellomancer which was icredibly durable and had great aoe coverage and the other one was a signet corruption build which was great for 1v1 / sidenode fights. Necro being weak at pvp at that time is a urban legend due to the fact that the very common rifle engineer cc build hardcountered most necro builds because core necro lacked (and still lacks) stability.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:I think the rivalry might end when the next E-spec comes rolling out, if it ever does. Im pretty sure given time they will both find their place, it might be another spec that might cement that footing and I think it might be needed. Something new and different while similar to the current play it has, something that can be more than what currently is but not over weigh or hinder any of what necromancer has been.

Something perhaps even darker...? Who knows.

I'm of the opinion that there needs to be 2 shroud specs and 2 life force specs like scourge. this to me would be best. What the reapers and scourge's want are too different to satisfy both with a single new spec. But I'm willing to be wrong.

Only if they make the core shroud and aspect of necromancer realistically viable then i would agree.

Otherwise i have to say i would rather see a 3rd shroud spec than another life force kit one. Anet is still struggling how to balance scourge because its so vastly different from necros base design in gw2 and its tearing the spec apart.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:I think the rivalry might end when the next E-spec comes rolling out, if it ever does. Im pretty sure given time they will both find their place, it might be another spec that might cement that footing and I think it might be needed. Something new and different while similar to the current play it has, something that can be more than what currently is but not over weigh or hinder any of what necromancer has been.

Something perhaps even darker...? Who knows.

I'm of the opinion that there needs to be 2 shroud specs and 2 life force specs like scourge. this to me would be best. What the reapers and scourge's want are too different to satisfy both with a single new spec. But I'm willing to be wrong.

Only if they make the core shroud and aspect of necromancer realistically viable then i would agree.

Otherwise i have to say i would rather see a 3rd shroud spec than another life force kit one. Anet is still struggling how to balance scourge because its so vastly different from necros base design in gw2 and its tearing the spec apart.

I actually wasn't including core in that. I was talking about a total of 4 elite specs. If core was converted into a life force kit.... My tune would be okay with a the next spec being a shroud. But honestly I don't expect the third elite spec to be a life force spec. I expect it to be a shroud. And I'm not opposed to that idea. I actually have some ideas for how Anet could make core death shroud into a life force kit that could be fun. I don't think they'd do it though.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:I think the rivalry might end when the next E-spec comes rolling out, if it ever does. Im pretty sure given time they will both find their place, it might be another spec that might cement that footing and I think it might be needed. Something new and different while similar to the current play it has, something that can be more than what currently is but not over weigh or hinder any of what necromancer has been.

Something perhaps even darker...? Who knows.

I'm of the opinion that there needs to be 2 shroud specs and 2 life force specs like scourge. this to me would be best. What the reapers and scourge's want are too different to satisfy both with a single new spec. But I'm willing to be wrong.

Only if they make the core shroud and aspect of necromancer realistically viable then i would agree.

Otherwise i have to say i would rather see a 3rd shroud spec than another life force kit one. Anet is still struggling how to balance scourge because its so vastly different from necros base design in gw2 and its tearing the spec apart.

I actually wasn't including core in that. I was talking about a total of 4 elite specs. If core was converted into a life force kit.... My tune would be okay with a the next spec being a shroud. But honestly I don't expect the third elite spec to be a life force spec. I expect it to be a shroud. And I'm not opposed to that idea. I actually have some ideas for how Anet could make core death shroud into a life force kit that could be fun. I don't think they'd do it though.

I seeI actually like core as a shroud its just so underdeveloped and out dated that its rough to keep up regardless of what content you use it for. Granted its a bit stronger in pvp than it is in pve or wvw when it comes to effectiveness but still.I just feel like it cant be anything too close to scourge because anet is still struggling to handle that after 2 years.

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@"Lily.1935" said:There is absolutely vitriol from the necromancer community towards the other specs. I've seen it, I've read it I wouldn't even have made this post if I hadn't experienced it. My Bias aside, this isn't a topic that can be had without bias. You yourself show quite a bit of bias in your post thinking that Revenant was a fissure in the community when it most certainly was not. It took space from the Necromancer, yes, but it also took it from each of the other classes too. It was massively complained about by all of the other communities. Especially thief and guardian. So it didn't create any form of Fissure. Just a loss of dedicated players.

As for the Revenant and ritualist debate. No. I played Ritualist extensively in GW1 as well as Mesmer, necromancer and dervish. its closest parallel is dervish not Ritualist. However, we have early interviews with the devs that confirms the spiritual successor of the ritualist was..... Engineer..... This isn't up for debate, it was stated by the devs. You want to believe otherwise you're living in a fantasy. Revenant at best pays homage to the ritualist. But no more homage to it than the necromancer does. But that's your bias, not mine. Most of the Veteran players know that the successor is Engineer. But that's off topic.

Well, you misunderstood me there, my point is that the ritualist concept is a point of fissure in the veteran community. It also affect the revenant, yet barely touch the engineer. I just point out that it's part of what divide necromancers since a long time already. My personnal point of view is that the necromancer is the necromancer, nothing more, nothing less. And my opinion stay that the shroud taping into to many role at once is the root of the issue. An issue that affect even the scourge whose shroud is "different".

back on the Rivalry. At the moment the necromancer community is nail biting. I've seen a lot of blame thrown around at the scourge for why the reaper and core have also gotten hit with nerfs, believing it to be the result of the scourge. This is something I've witnessed on the forums as well as in games and on discord servers. The hatred for the scourge exists in the necromancer community and there was distaste from the veteran players as well for reaper. Although as you mentioned it was more against shroud, than anything else. Some players love shroud, other's hate it. The title of my post isn't supposed to be quite taken literally. I'm looking at why the schism exists in the first place. Reaper and Scourge just act as perfect avatars of that Schism.

Well, every profession have the same hate for e-spec when those e-spec lead to nerfs at the core of the profession. I don't think scourge have it worse that reaper had it when it had it's own train of nerfs.

My post just point out that there is more to the "why" than what you, yourself, pointed out. Be it the expectations of the veteran players, the speculation about which profession take some aspects of gw1's professions, the expectations of the "new" players... etc. All of this, stuck into a profession whose tools aren't fiting really well the reality of the game, make a broad picture of why the necromancer's community is fragmented.

Like I said:

Ultimately, we all have different beliefs and point of views. We all want the necromancer to fare better in the game but each of us seek a different path while ANet continue to follow it's own path.

I liked playing necromancer in GW1 (like a lot of other professions except monk because I was "forced" to play monk) and GW2's necromancer don't live to expectations. I can enjoy the design of the GW2 necromancer but I can't not see how flawed it is at it's core design in the context of the game, it's just to different from other professions, it stand out like a sore point. Each time I see ANet "balance" this necromancer I die a bit more inside. From some players point of view what ANet do in it's balance is a "good" thing and this is another element of division in my opinion.

Each person (betrayed) expectations, a fondamentally flawed design, an arguable balance method... You can find elements for source of the "rivalry" between scourge and reaper everywhere. Because ultimately we have a profession which is more frustrating than anything and falling out on the design that we like the least is a good way to express this frustration. The schism come from the core design dividing new and "old" players of the brand (Not meeting expectations by it's design on one side and by it's efficiency on another side), it feed itself on jealousy and frustration, branch based on each person own point of view and bloom into an hostility between e-specs.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@LucianDK.8615 said:Ive tried to play Scourge, but I dont feel it plays very well. Reaper is so much easier to play, far less buttons to worry about.

You have exact same amount of buttons xD just not that many at the same time :p

But not at the same time, just plays havoc with the muscle memmory to have to jump between number and multiple Fbuttons to manage a scourge. So I am staying with Reaper.

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"In PvP the story is quite a bit different. Up until recently the scourge kept out many of the other classes from being competitive because of how strong their aoe was. This mostly impacted melee classes and specs so Reaper was oppressed heavily by the scourge which only furthered the reaper's hatred for the elite spec. But the feeling was mutual as this was only the modern evolution of the old argument of the GW1 veteran vs New Age Necromancer." -Lily.1935

This, I mainly go PVP and Reaper was useless due to Scourge. The change to unholy matyr was the crushing blow. Blood line led by the old Unholy matyr gave me the sustain I needed and team cleanse (albeit small). I wish the Unholy matyr change would have increased condi transfer from mates to 3-5 and 2-3% life force per condi.

I quit November 2017 not to return until just after the Scourge changes. I main soulbeast now... Still not incredibly happy and still trying to find a fit for reaper in the face of holos and warriors.

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@miguelsil.6324 said:Necro/reaper need to have shroud for a certain amount of time that will not expire until lets say 10s ends, and maybe an increase to15s before you can enter shroud again.

This actually reminds me of an interesting discussion about the necromancer as a whole. Many of the players outside of the necromancer community bemoan the fact that scourge relies so heavily on their shades. But this honestly isn't different from the reaper or core necromancer. All 3 are heavily focused on their life force mechanic and the tools the necromancer is given is balanced mostly around this fact. Which is why I personally say the changes to scourge are concerning in terms of balancing the elite spec since Anet seems to be heavily weakening those tools while the whole class itself is designed around this premise. Necromancer is supposed to use Shroud and Shades extensively. This is what its designed around.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Necro/reaper need to have shroud for a certain amount of time that will not expire until lets say 10s ends, and maybe an increase to15s before you can enter shroud again.

This actually reminds me of an interesting discussion about the necromancer as a whole. Many of the players outside of the necromancer community bemoan the fact that scourge relies so heavily on their shades. But this honestly isn't different from the reaper or core necromancer. All 3 are heavily focused on their life force mechanic and the tools the necromancer is given is balanced mostly around this fact. Which is why I personally say the changes to scourge are concerning in terms of balancing the elite spec since Anet seems to be heavily weakening those tools while the whole class itself is designed around this premise. Necromancer is supposed to use Shroud and Shades extensively. This is what its designed around.

And would help solve the fact that necros have no surviving tools on their own or reall oh shit button, instea of LF working for usage of shroud maybe could fill up bars like adrenaline of warrior and each tier unlocks more damage, cc imunity and boons depending on how much you managed to build while outside shroud.

So like one bar gives you stability when entering, 2 bars gives you stability and vigor or might or regen, 3 bars all of the previous plus resistance, all of these would be ofc like 1 or 2 stacks tops .

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@miguelsil.6324 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Necro/reaper need to have shroud for a certain amount of time that will not expire until lets say 10s ends, and maybe an increase to15s before you can enter shroud again.

This actually reminds me of an interesting discussion about the necromancer as a whole. Many of the players outside of the necromancer community bemoan the fact that scourge relies so heavily on their shades. But this honestly isn't different from the reaper or core necromancer. All 3 are heavily focused on their life force mechanic and the tools the necromancer is given is balanced mostly around this fact. Which is why I personally say the changes to scourge are concerning in terms of balancing the elite spec since Anet seems to be heavily weakening those tools while the whole class itself is designed around this premise. Necromancer is supposed to use Shroud and Shades extensively. This is what its designed around.

And would help solve the fact that necros have no surviving tools on their own or reall oh kitten button, instea of LF working for usage of shroud maybe could fill up bars like adrenaline of warrior and each tier unlocks more damage, cc imunity and boons depending on how much you managed to build while outside shroud.

So like one bar gives you stability when entering, 2 bars gives you stability and vigor or might or regen, 3 bars all of the previous plus resistance, all of these would be ofc like 1 or 2 stacks tops .

There are a few things i think the necromancer should get access to or more access to as a whole. Such as More stability and resistance. I'd also like to see blocks. Evades and invulnerably aren't needed, but these others I feel absolutely are. You'll often see necromancer running 2-3 stunbreak skills just because they get countered so hard by CC. Which is pretty bad in my opinion. And It would be nice if some of their options were improved on like Foot in the grave. You just don't want to take Foot in the grave over Dhuumfire or Death Perception. There is also the fact that we don't have a trait that improves spectral skills anymore which could also help with some of our defensive options.

I'd like to see a retooling on our offensive options as well. Berserker and Scrapper both got negatives to their specs in the form of sacrificed toughness and vitality respectively. Although I don't feel this direction is quite the direction I'd go with necromancer since Vitality is built into as a required aspect of our life force mechanic it would still be nice to have something along these same philosophy. I'm always in favor of life sacrificing skills for the necromancer as it creates an interesting dynamic with how the necromancer can be played. Although Suicide Bomber in GW1 was a bit over tuned for a time, its the type of creative build the necromancer sorely lacks in GW2. I feel that when Anet redesigned the direction of Necromancer to not include sacrifice skills they really dropped the ball for their design.

Other things are I've always been an advocate for Utility skills in death and reaper shroud. Since Year 1! And my stance on this hasn't changed. I think this could open up a lot of interesting design space for the specs. I also personally think that the passive defensive bonus of shroud's damage reduction was a design flaw as it makes the necromancer too reliant on this aspect. If this was removed necromancer could be given defenses elsewhere such as with the spectral skills, more blocks and so on. I don't think that passive damage reduction should entirely be removes, but more implemented as a trait. But this is a contentious subject so I'm willing to listen to alternative arguments on this fact.

And even though I am on team scourge, this doesn't mean I would only enjoy scourge style gameplay. In fact when it comes to underwater content, core necromancer is my absolutely favorite. Underwater shroud has to be the most fun shroud in my opinion. Pulling conditions and transferring them with plague blast is the sort of party utility I live for and I honestly wish Land death shroud was more like this.

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@Lily.1935 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Necro/reaper need to have shroud for a certain amount of time that will not expire until lets say 10s ends, and maybe an increase to15s before you can enter shroud again.

This actually reminds me of an interesting discussion about the necromancer as a whole. Many of the players outside of the necromancer community bemoan the fact that scourge relies so heavily on their shades. But this honestly isn't different from the reaper or core necromancer. All 3 are heavily focused on their life force mechanic and the tools the necromancer is given is balanced mostly around this fact. Which is why I personally say the changes to scourge are concerning in terms of balancing the elite spec since Anet seems to be heavily weakening those tools while the whole class itself is designed around this premise. Necromancer is supposed to use Shroud and Shades extensively. This is what its designed around.

And would help solve the fact that necros have no surviving tools on their own or reall oh kitten button, instea of LF working for usage of shroud maybe could fill up bars like adrenaline of warrior and each tier unlocks more damage, cc imunity and boons depending on how much you managed to build while outside shroud.

So like one bar gives you stability when entering, 2 bars gives you stability and vigor or might or regen, 3 bars all of the previous plus resistance, all of these would be ofc like 1 or 2 stacks tops .

There are a few things i think the necromancer should get access to or more access to as a whole. Such as More stability and resistance. I'd also like to see blocks. Evades and invulnerably aren't needed, but these others I feel absolutely are. You'll often see necromancer running 2-3 stunbreak skills just because they get countered so hard by CC. Which is pretty bad in my opinion. And It would be nice if some of their options were improved on like Foot in the grave. You just don't want to take Foot in the grave over Dhuumfire or Death Perception. There is also the fact that we don't have a trait that improves spectral skills anymore which could also help with some of our defensive options.

I'd like to see a retooling on our offensive options as well. Berserker and Scrapper both got negatives to their specs in the form of sacrificed toughness and vitality respectively. Although I don't feel this direction is quite the direction I'd go with necromancer since Vitality is built into as a required aspect of our life force mechanic it would still be nice to have something along these same philosophy. I'm always in favor of life sacrificing skills for the necromancer as it creates an interesting dynamic with how the necromancer can be played. Although Suicide Bomber in GW1 was a bit over tuned for a time, its the type of creative build the necromancer sorely lacks in GW2. I feel that when Anet redesigned the direction of Necromancer to not include sacrifice skills they really dropped the ball for their design.

Other things are I've always been an advocate for Utility skills in death and reaper shroud. Since Year 1! And my stance on this hasn't changed. I think this could open up a lot of interesting design space for the specs. I also personally think that the passive defensive bonus of shroud's damage reduction was a design flaw as it makes the necromancer too reliant on this aspect. If this was removed necromancer could be given defenses elsewhere such as with the spectral skills, more blocks and so on. I don't think that passive damage reduction should entirely be removes, but more implemented as a trait. But this is a contentious subject so I'm willing to listen to alternative arguments on this fact.

And even though I am on team scourge, this doesn't mean I would only enjoy scourge style gameplay. In fact when it comes to underwater content, core necromancer is my absolutely favorite. Underwater shroud has to be the most fun shroud in my opinion. Pulling conditions and transferring them with plague blast is the sort of party utility I live for and I honestly wish Land death shroud was more like this.

I agree on the utilities being available while in shroud since forever also, would help alot with the so many flaws the class has.

The cast times also need to be tuned down, almost 1/3 or 1s gets a class that has already poor survival and no immunity to cc a free bag, it all adds up.

The consume condis heal should be instant, flesh worm should be instant with a reduced cd at least of 5s, all shouts should be instant specially the elite one, this would guarantee its usage that right now you need to bait an enemy but most enemys have more than one inturrupt anyway so they will just do it next time or evade back off and corrupt the boon after .

As necessary I would say make the utilities available while on shroud right now and reduce the cast times on the utilities and weapons that take forever to be useful.

Wvw is fast paced and the class breaks under pressure.

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