Why are there so many open plot points? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why are there so many open plot points?

Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 17, 2019 in Lore

... And it seems to me they're adding more and more of them. I'm not super deep into lore, so forgive me if i get something wrong, but I want to list a few things that come to my mind:

The wizards tower: Since we have only very few hints to what is going on inside of the tower with the addition of a little lore from GW1 this one can possibly be weaved into GW2 at any point. Things are more or less wide open, but still, after so much passed time, we haven't gotten anything from it.

Lyssa and Balthazar: It seems like this one just is brushed over, has it ever been mentioned again? Balthazar CLEARLY received help from Lyssa and I would like to know why and what exactly this story is about.

The Dwarfs and the Tengu: No, I'm not asking for a new playable race, I would just love to hear or see something about these. Considering the Tengu I mean the dominion of winds specifically. It just strikes me as something very odd to set up the lore of a closed up city and then just never using it for any plot. No?

Cantha: Yeh yeh, I know, there is a big schism among the community about this. Some want it, some others want something else. Though, if we can have Tyria and Elona, then we certainly can have Cantha aswell. I know there are some greater problems with this. Anet might be interested in it, but for some reason can't do it. But let's be honest: Cantha is ruled by a tyrannic Emperor. Isn't that a good starting point for us to get involved?

Who is E?: Was this mistery ever resolved?

What happened to Malyck?: Isn't it already overdue explaining this?

Who was Palawa Joko and where did he come from?: I mean his early lore, the origin story basically. They just killed him off, answering nothing.

There certainly are more things, but right now these are the ones that come to my mind. I have no problem with a few things being mysterious and so on, it serves a purpose. But when there are more and more question adding up I think it rather hurts the immersion. What is your opinion about this?

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    The Wizard's Tower is meant to be left open. The whole point of it is the mystery. If they were to delve into it (as they have hinted at previously) any mystique would be destroyed. Some things are better left to the imagination. Sometimes it can be better just to look up and wonder. The Tower is one of those things. If they sadly decide to bring it out of its mystery, it will be a raid I am pretty certain.

    Lyssa and Balthazar I think we can all agree on was an odd set up which went nowhere and seems now to be dropped.

    Malyck was partially written and ideas still float around, but they haven't found a way or the time to put it back in since it was cut since it no longer relates to the main story. I suspect we will get a short web story and that will close it off.

    E. They all but confirmed this was dropped. It's the problem when they rotate new writers in who have different ideas for the direction of the game and the story evolves away in a new direction. E may return, but I think that's dropped along with all the other S2 open threads. E sums up GW2's narrative really. A random idea, which went nowhere, sorta came back, went nowhere and all because of a whimisical approach to storytelling

    Joko I think they answered last Halloween and you can go back to it again this year. I am happy to be corrected, but I think we've got all we are going to get on him now.

    Dwarves only seem to crop up where Destroyers/Primordus is involved. Expect these to get more time when that arc pops up should any dwarves still exist down there in the depths. Tengu possibly the same.

    Cantha is unlikely to ever happen. It's not really an open plot since Cantha hasn't figured in GW2. The potential exists and there are plenty of ways to deal with a story there, but I'm not seeing Cantha becoming a part of the game now.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Who was E, no one, nobody, no where.
    He'd be s poor informant if he ever showed face.
    But if its any conciliation, there's a popular, and plausible, theory that the guy in the well is E

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The Wizard's Tower is meant to be left open. The whole point of it is the mystery. If they were to delve into it (as they have hinted at previously) any mystique would be destroyed. Some things are better left to the imagination. Sometimes it can be better just to look up and wonder. The Tower is one of those things. If they sadly decide to bring it out of its mystery, it will be a raid I am pretty certain.

    Mystery for the sake of mystery is a dumbest idea like the LS1 unreplayability.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    E's the problem when they rotate new writers in who have different ideas for the direction of the game and the story evolves away in a new direction.

    this probably aswer most plot holes.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The Wizard's Tower is meant to be left open. The whole point of it is the mystery. If they were to delve into it (as they have hinted at previously) any mystique would be destroyed. Some things are better left to the imagination. Sometimes it can be better just to look up and wonder. The Tower is one of those things. If they sadly decide to bring it out of its mystery, it will be a raid I am pretty certain.

    Mystery for the sake of mystery is a dumbest idea like the LS1 unreplayability.

    Fully and strongly disagree. It is something writers have used for an age and quite successfully. Not everything needs laying out for the audience in minute detail - it can be better for certain things to create its own air of mystery and the audience to fill in the blanks. “Golden age” Sci fi and Fantasy writing used it a lot and it can add a certain....ambient romance to a setting.

    Perhaps I an terming it in a way that is wrong and of course overuse cheapens things. Done right though gives something extraordinary power.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The Wizard's Tower is meant to be left open. The whole point of it is the mystery. If they were to delve into it (as they have hinted at previously) any mystique would be destroyed. Some things are better left to the imagination. Sometimes it can be better just to look up and wonder. The Tower is one of those things. If they sadly decide to bring it out of its mystery, it will be a raid I am pretty certain.

    You know that mysterious evil dude sitting in his chair, petting his black cat, never revealing his face? Or the glowing suitcase from Pulp Fiction? In the tradition of story telling even mysteries have to serve a purpose. Just haveing a mystery for the sake of it doesn't work and is bad story telling by defintion. So even if that might be the final word of the devs it is still huge wasted potential.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Lyssa and Balthazar I think we can all agree on was an odd set up which went nowhere and seems now to be dropped.

    Maybe. I personally believe it could have gone somewhere for sure. But nonetheless, creating lore and then dropping it before it is concluded is not only unprofessional but also very dissatisfying. However we don't know for sure. They still can bring it up again I suppose.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    E. They all but confirmed this was dropped. It's the problem when they rotate new writers in who have different ideas for the direction of the game and the story evolves away in a new direction. E may return, but I think that's dropped along with all the other S2 open threads. E sums up GW2's narrative really. A random idea, which went nowhere, sorta came back, went nowhere and all because of a whimisical approach to storytelling

    Again, unprofessional and dissatisfying. But we all have to deal with it, i guess.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Malyck was partially written and ideas still float around, but they haven't found a way or the time to put it back in since it was cut since it no longer relates to the main story. I suspect we will get a short web story and that will close it off.

    I have heard rumours about that. I wish they would put these stuff IN the game, and not just write some text and put it somewhere on a website. I have never understood this sentiment and I never will.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Joko I think they answered last Halloween and you can go back to it again this year. I am happy to be corrected, but I think we've got all we are going to get on him now.

    Oh I didn't know that. I usually check the Wiki for lore, but I cannot find this "answer" anywhere. Can you provide a link or a hint where to look for it maybe?

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Cantha is unlikely to ever happen. It's not really an open plot since Cantha hasn't figured in GW2. The potential exists and there are plenty of ways to deal with a story there, but I'm not seeing Cantha becoming a part of the game now.

    Yes, the community has come to term with this mentality concerning cantha, or at least it seems so. But really, you can say that about anything. Before the path of fire expansion someone could have said the same about Balthazar's or any of the God's involvement in the story. I didn't see Balthazar becoming a part of the game, but it still happened. That's the wonderful thing with story telling, nothing really is impossible, however some thing might be more difficult to set up in a satisfying way than others.
    Whatever the reasons may be for Cantha not to be released, with all the nostalgia surrounding it one would think the finencial potential is there without doubt. But I might be wrong about that.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The Wizard's Tower is meant to be left open. The whole point of it is the mystery. If they were to delve into it (as they have hinted at previously) any mystique would be destroyed. Some things are better left to the imagination. Sometimes it can be better just to look up and wonder. The Tower is one of those things. If they sadly decide to bring it out of its mystery, it will be a raid I am pretty certain.

    You know that mysterious evil dude sitting in his chair, petting his black cat, never revealing his face? Or the glowing suitcase from Pulp Fiction? In the tradition of story telling even mysteries have to serve a purpose. Just haveing a mystery for the sake of it doesn't work and is bad story telling by defintion. So even if that might be the final word of the devs it is still huge wasted potential.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Lyssa and Balthazar I think we can all agree on was an odd set up which went nowhere and seems now to be dropped.

    Maybe. I personally believe it could have gone somewhere for sure. But nonetheless, creating lore and then dropping it before it is concluded is not only unprofessional but also very dissatisfying. However we don't know for sure. They still can bring it up again I suppose.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    E. They all but confirmed this was dropped. It's the problem when they rotate new writers in who have different ideas for the direction of the game and the story evolves away in a new direction. E may return, but I think that's dropped along with all the other S2 open threads. E sums up GW2's narrative really. A random idea, which went nowhere, sorta came back, went nowhere and all because of a whimisical approach to storytelling

    Again, unprofessional and dissatisfying. But we all have to deal with it, i guess.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Malyck was partially written and ideas still float around, but they haven't found a way or the time to put it back in since it was cut since it no longer relates to the main story. I suspect we will get a short web story and that will close it off.

    I have heard rumours about that. I wish they would put these stuff IN the game, and not just write some text and put it somewhere on a website. I have never understood this sentiment and I never will.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Joko I think they answered last Halloween and you can go back to it again this year. I am happy to be corrected, but I think we've got all we are going to get on him now.

    Oh I didn't know that. I usually check the Wiki for lore, but I cannot find this "answer" anywhere. Can you provide a link or a hint where to look for it maybe?

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Cantha is unlikely to ever happen. It's not really an open plot since Cantha hasn't figured in GW2. The potential exists and there are plenty of ways to deal with a story there, but I'm not seeing Cantha becoming a part of the game now.

    Yes, the community has come to term with this mentality concerning cantha, or at least it seems so. But really, you can say that about anything. Before the path of fire expansion someone could have said the same about Balthazar's or any of the God's involvement in the story. I didn't see Balthazar becoming a part of the game, but it still happened. That's the wonderful thing with story telling, nothing really is impossible, however some thing might be more difficult to set up in a satisfying way than others.
    Whatever the reasons may be for Cantha not to be released, with all the nostalgia surrounding it one would think the finencial potential is there without doubt. But I might be wrong about that.

    Ill address three points

    • Mystery for the sake of mystery is not bad storytelling if done correctly. And here it is done correctly. No matter what they do with it, itll never live up to 15 years speculation and imagination. Allowing the readers to wonder and imagine is what fantasy was meant to be about. Sure its evolved so that every last tiny detail is often over explained, but a good fantasy writer will find ways to allow their reader to “dream”. Mysteries allow for that. Perhaps labelling it “mystery for the sake of mystery” is a misleading term, but such things absolutely must exist. I will emphasise though that it doesnt work for everything and every sutuation.

    • In the patch notes for halloween it mentions about visiting a general in la if you defeated joko. Try that quest line and collection. Esp the items you pick up along the way. Again, Im going off a vague memory

    • Financially i have no doubt cantha would be a huge success

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't really have time for a full response but I'll hit some things.

    Wizard's tower, while a mystery, has never directly related to the plot line. In GW1 or GW2. It's a unique and interesting place, but we've never had reason to dive into it.

    Malyck, they openly stated they wanted to do stuff with him in Heart of Thorns, but had to cut it out because it ruined the pacing of the story. They didn't like dropping that plot point but it was needed to maintain the pacing. Heart of Thorns story we can suspect had other bits cut from the story as well. Malyck is a confirmed cut however.

    Palawa Joko's early life got some lore tidbits in Halloween, but it's generally not needed. He's an ancient necromancer whose past is a mystery and it works. Nobody knows how he became a lich, or where he started from. And this works, because it means nobody else can follow in his steps.

  • I would not be surprised if Joko went out of his way to make sure no one knows how he pulled off nigh-immortality and the ability to awaken sentient slaves. He was clearly an old pro at editing history when he got done with Elona.

    I don't have problems with being open - the Commander can't solve everything. It doesn't hurt to make sure if you close off stuff you leave as much new stuff open for future development, either.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    The wizards tower: Since we have only very few hints to what is going on inside of the tower with the addition of a little lore from GW1 this one can possibly be weaved into GW2 at any point. Things are more or less wide open, but still, after so much passed time, we haven't gotten anything from it.
    @Clyan.1593 said:
    You know that mysterious evil dude sitting in his chair, petting his black cat, never revealing his face? Or the glowing suitcase from Pulp Fiction? In the tradition of story telling even mysteries have to serve a purpose. Just haveing a mystery for the sake of it doesn't work and is bad story telling by defintion. So even if that might be the final word of the devs it is still huge wasted potential.

    This is a mystery kept a mystery for the sake of building a world that feels more expansive than it actually is, and it isn't the only such mystery. The point of these types of mysteries is to make the game world feel expansive with less work. It isn't "having a mystery for the sake of having a mystery". It's "having a mystery for the sake of instilling a sense of breadth where there is none."

    And given how long the Wizard's Tower has captivated people, making people wonder what's inside, since 2005, I'd say that it has done its job and at this point entering it and solving that mystery is inevitably going to be a disappointment.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Lyssa and Balthazar: It seems like this one just is brushed over, has it ever been mentioned again? Balthazar CLEARLY received help from Lyssa and I would like to know why and what exactly this story is about.

    No, it is not clear. It is implied, yes, but barely so, and with intention, but implication of any degree does not create certainty. There are several routes ArenaNet could take that would involve Balthazar not getting help from Lyssa, or even not having any benefiting relationship with Lyssa (for example, I once offered a joke tinfoil hat theory of Kormir being the culprit, not Lyssa, in which after elaboration it actually has solid footing).

    That said, ArenaNet did say that "the god plot is not over yet and we will return one day". Obviously they have heard that a lot of players are tired of Elona / human-centric plots so for now we're doing a norn-and-charr-centric plot. After this, we might return to the God Plot one day.

    If people didn't go "I'm soooo tired of Elona and human lore!" perpetually throughout Season 4, I feel that Season 5 would have been on this plot thread and the Gods.

    The Dwarfs and the Tengu: No, I'm not asking for a new playable race, I would just love to hear or see something about these. Considering the Tengu I mean the dominion of winds specifically. It just strikes me as something very odd to set up the lore of a closed up city and then just never using it for any plot. No?

    The entire point of setting it up as a closed up city was to avoid using it in plots... I wouldn't call this an open plot thread, but rather, a plot thread used to close plots that could be reopened. A plot curtain, if you will.

    Dwarves, however, are 100% a closed plot thread. They turned to stone, they went underground to fight Primordus, they lost and now Primordus' destroyers have begun surfacing. It was even in the premise of Edge of Destiny novel. Not much to hear about a dead race. And what legacy they left behind we have uncovered - it's called Thunderhead Peaks. As far as ArenaNet's plot threads are concerned, this was is actually - for once - tied nightly in a bow and finished. The only thing that remains would be finding the rubble of dwarven battles in the depths or maybe a tiny miniscule handful of survivors (totaling in single digits) in the same situation as Rhoban.

    Cantha: Yeh yeh, I know, there is a big schism among the community about this. Some want it, some others want something else. Though, if we can have Tyria and Elona, then we certainly can have Cantha aswell. I know there are some greater problems with this. Anet might be interested in it, but for some reason can't do it. But let's be honest: Cantha is ruled by a tyrannic Emperor. Isn't that a good starting point for us to get involved?

    All we have is our explanation for why we can't go there. Like Dominion of Winds, this is more a thread used to close plots for the time being. We haven't gone there yet because - for one reason or another - ArenaNet decided to take all Elder Dragons and have them inhabit Central Tyria except two (and one came to Central Tyria - Jormag - while the other is a real lose plot thread).

    Who is E?: Was this mistery ever resolved?

    What happened to Malyck?: Isn't it already overdue explaining this?

    So these are actual plot threads that need resolving. Malyck was slated for Heart of Thorns but dropped due to time constraints and narrative flow. But in April 2018, Matthew Medina was writing up a return for him. Unfortunately, Medina was part of the layoffs and we don't know if someone picked that up.

    As for E, Randulf is incorrect in saying ArenaNet confirmed that was a dropped plot - he is likely thinking of the Krytan Locket which was a confirmed dropped plot (apparently it was to lead into a sub-plot where we were supposed to find some hidden heir to the throne or something; I guess they didn't want to kill Jennah off just to send us on a wild goose chase or something). E was never confirmed nor denied dropped; we did get hints into who E was during The Head of the Snake, but that being the best opportunity to delve into who E is, E has ended up falling into the the realm of "a mystery left for making the game world seem more expansive than is written out".

    Who was Palawa Joko and where did he come from?: I mean his early lore, the origin story basically. They just killed him off, answering nothing.

    They answered this in Halloween. Talk to Veteran Brigadier General Kernel in Fort Marriner, Lion's Arch.

    Joko was the son of an Elonian diplomat and apprenticed necromancer who was slightly older than Oswald Thorn - Joko being a late teenager when Oswald was a ten-or-so year old, by the sounds of it. How he became a lich is not fully answered, but we got two heavy hints back in GW1: the Scriptures of Abaddon (hinting at similar magic as what made Khilbron) and a wish-granting djinn.

    I don't think we need to know every bit of Joko's history to consider it a finished plot thread. While it'd be nice to confirm that one last question in the spoiler of which was the case (either or both or neither and if so what), it isn't really necessary.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    This is a mystery kept a mystery for the sake of building a world that feels more expansive than it actually is, and it isn't the only such mystery. The point of these types of mysteries is to make the game world feel expansive with less work. It isn't "having a mystery for the sake of having a mystery". It's "having a mystery for the sake of instilling a sense of breadth where there is none."

    And given how long the Wizard's Tower has captivated people, making people wonder what's inside, since 2005, I'd say that it has done its job and at this point entering it and solving that mystery is inevitably going to be a disappointment.

    First of all: thank you for your expansive answer.

    I see how the wizards tower is used as a vehicle to transport a certain message or immersion. This of course works; its within the nature of a mystery to make people wonder, imagining and craft theories. We are a curious species, and so the wizards tower has done its job, i agree. What irritates me though, is that the tower and its lore with the release of gw2 and later on with zommoros raid instance was expanded. If it really is just there to be a mystery, then they could have left the tower as it was. This inconsistency is what makes me feel that is is supposed to be more than just a vehicle.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    No, it is not clear. It is implied, yes, but barely so, and with intention, but implication of any degree does not create certainty. There are several routes ArenaNet could take that would involve Balthazar not getting help from Lyssa, or even not having any benefiting relationship with Lyssa (for example, I once offered a joke tinfoil hat theory of Kormir being the culprit, not Lyssa, in which after elaboration it actually has solid footing).

    That said, ArenaNet did say that "the god plot is not over yet and we will return one day". Obviously they have heard that a lot of players are tired of Elona / human-centric plots so for now we're doing a norn-and-charr-centric plot. After this, we might return to the God Plot one day.

    If people didn't go "I'm soooo tired of Elona and human lore!" perpetually throughout Season 4, I feel that Season 5 would have been on this plot thread and the Gods.

    If i remember correctly balthazar curses all the gods except lyssa. And so i take it as pretty much confirmed that lyssa in some way or form did support him unlike the other gods. My guild leader supposed to me, that lyssa probably didnt oppose him, but left with the other gods nonetheless. Unlike the others she didnt judge and put him in chains, but gave him the mirror to let him procceed in his plans and leave him to his own destiny / fate. Of course this is just a theory, but considering lyssas "twin" nature i find this idea not bad for the time being.
    However i support going to the god story one day heavily and i am happy to hear, they do not want to leave it like this.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The entire point of setting it up as a closed up city was to avoid using it in plots... I wouldn't call this an open plot thread, but rather, a plot thread used to close plots that could be reopened. A plot curtain, if you will.

    Dwarves, however, are 100% a closed plot thread. They turned to stone, they went underground to fight Primordus, they lost and now Primordus' destroyers have begun surfacing. It was even in the premise of Edge of Destiny novel. Not much to hear about a dead race. And what legacy they left behind we have uncovered - it's called Thunderhead Peaks. As far as ArenaNet's plot threads are concerned, this was is actually - for once - tied nightly in a bow and finished. The only thing that remains would be finding the rubble of dwarven battles in the depths or maybe a tiny miniscule handful of survivors (totaling in single digits) in the same situation as Rhoban.

    I see, so the dwarfs are extinct? With a few exceptions? Like ogden? I thought they cannot die since stone unlike a body out of blood and flesh doesnt "die" when being torn apart. Isnt there a dwarfen head somewhere in game, still alive and talking, which confirmes the dwarfs to be still alive in some form or capacity?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    All we have is our explanation for why we can't go there. Like Dominion of Winds, this is more a thread used to close plots for the time being. We haven't gone there yet because - for one reason or another - ArenaNet decided to take all Elder Dragons and have them inhabit Central Tyria except two (and one came to Central Tyria - Jormag - while the other is a real lose plot thread).

    Yes this whole thing is wrapped up perfectly so that it is completely unnecessary to ever go there. I still hope bubbles or a new storyline will lead us there. I know the echowald isnt out of stone anymore, and the jade sea gas turned back into liquid, at least i heard so, but maybe shing jea island and a bit of kaineng city would be enough for a little excursion. A man can dream...

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    So these are actual plot threads that need resolving. Malyck was slated for Heart of Thorns but dropped due to time constraints and narrative flow. But in April 2018, Matthew Medina was writing up a return for him. Unfortunately, Medina was part of the layoffs and we don't know if someone picked that up.

    As for E, Randulf is incorrect in saying ArenaNet confirmed that was a dropped plot - he is likely thinking of the Krytan Locket which was a confirmed dropped plot (apparently it was to lead into a sub-plot where we were supposed to find some hidden heir to the throne or something; I guess they didn't want to kill Jennah off just to send us on a wild goose chase or something). E was never confirmed nor denied dropped; we did get hints into who E was during The Head of the Snake, but that being the best opportunity to delve into who E is, E has ended up falling into the the realm of "a mystery left for making the game world seem more expansive than is written out".

    I talked with my guild leader about E aswell, and he simply explained that it's lady camilla einshorn. E short for einshorn. If you go to the wiki you can read through quite a lot of information that cofirms this to a very heavy degree. I didnt talk to the npc myself yet, but will do soon. Maybe you can get a bit deeper into that, as one of the big lore masters of the game.

    Who was Palawa Joko and where did he come from?: I mean his early lore, the origin story basically. They just killed him off, answering nothing.

    They answered this in Halloween. Talk to Veteran Brigadier General Kernel in Fort Marriner, Lion's Arch.

    Joko was the son of an Elonian diplomat and apprenticed necromancer who was slightly older than Oswald Thorn - Joko being a late teenager when Oswald was a ten-or-so year old, by the sounds of it. How he became a lich is not fully answered, but we got two heavy hints back in GW1: the Scriptures of Abaddon (hinting at similar magic as what made Khilbron) and a wish-granting djinn.

    I don't think we need to know every bit of Joko's history to consider it a finished plot thread. While it'd be nice to confirm that one last question in the spoiler of which was the case (either or both or neither and if so what), it isn't really necessary.

    Thank you. This pretty much answers my question. With the "diary" from joko combined it draws a more or less good picture of what has happened to him and how he became the lich.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Your Guild leader is guessing. E was never revealed. I may have misrembered about what the devs said (I was sure they referred to all the loose plots started in S2 not just the locket), but there is little indication E will be uncovered. And to be honest, the relevance doesn’t seem to be there anymore.

    On a similar note, was it confirmed who gave the egg to the Master in that hologram? Was it a Forgotten?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Your Guild leader is guessing. E was never revealed. I may have misrembered about what the devs said (I was sure they referred to all the loose plots started in S2 not just the locket), but there is little indication E will be uncovered. And to be honest, the relevance doesn’t seem to be there anymore.

    On a similar note, was it confirmed who gave the egg to the Master in that hologram? Was it a Forgotten?

    We know the forgotton were alive and active until Kralkatorrik traveled to the crystal desert, which is when the last ones there got branded.

    As for other bits of "plot points/lore unexplained" (relating to entire topic, not person I'm quoting) I'm reminded of another thing I recall posting here (or it was another game, I forget which) were somebody was asking why we don't hear from X character or about Y thing, and I said "Because it's irrelevant to the plot?" (I think it might've been about Tengu?)

    While Cantha would be interesting on one hand to visit, at the moment, what does cantha have to do with the commander and crew dealing with Jormag? The wizard's tower interesting, but why would we go there? If an unexplained previously touched on plot point is suddenly dumped into the story to be explained, but is totally unfitting, it becomes weird. I recall plenty of people felt that way about Livia in S3. Sure, it was nice to see that she was still alive and kicking, and to finish off the last known Mursaat, but it was kinda shoved in there, with the whole connection between the Eye of Janthir and Balthazar.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    I see how the wizards tower is used as a vehicle to transport a certain message or immersion. This of course works; its within the nature of a mystery to make people wonder, imagining and craft theories. We are a curious species, and so the wizards tower has done its job, i agree. What irritates me though, is that the tower and its lore with the release of gw2 and later on with zommoros raid instance was expanded. If it really is just there to be a mystery, then they could have left the tower as it was. This inconsistency is what makes me feel that is is supposed to be more than just a vehicle.

    I don't think that touching it occasionally without answering anything - especially when we're talking about the span of 250 years - is inconsistent with leaving it a mystery for the sake of helping the world feel more expansive. If anything, hearing nothing happen to it between the two games would feel more immersion-breaking to me. The very few post-GW2 launch expansions to it was really just two dialogues that tell us one thing: the new owner has interacted with "merchants". Which really isn't saying much.

    Plus, occasionally feeding something to a mystery is a tool to help keep a mystery in the forefront of the audience's mind.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    If i remember correctly balthazar curses all the gods except lyssa. And so i take it as pretty much confirmed that lyssa in some way or form did support him unlike the other gods. My guild leader supposed to me, that lyssa probably didnt oppose him, but left with the other gods nonetheless. Unlike the others she didnt judge and put him in chains, but gave him the mirror to let him procceed in his plans and leave him to his own destiny / fate. Of course this is just a theory, but considering lyssas "twin" nature i find this idea not bad for the time being.
    However i support going to the god story one day heavily and i am happy to hear, they do not want to leave it like this.

    Really all it shows is that Balthazar didn't feel the need upon his immediate death to curse at Lyssa. At best, this could mean that Lyssa remained neutral and Balthazar was a bit grateful for that - grateful enough to be willing to spare her and/or simply not curse her with his final breath. As to the mirror - it's pretty heavily suggested he got the mirror from the reliquaries, not Lyssa; he went to the reliquaries in Siren's Landing in order to hide the fifth aspect of Lazarus so that his disguise as Lazarus would not fail, but he showed up without a disguise. This means it would be both before the events of Season 3 that he went there, and before he had the mirror.

    Kormir telling us that he was disguised the whole time is simply contradictory to everything else we know. Which led to my crackpot theory that Kormir is trying to destroy the gods from inside, and convinced the other gods (but Lyssa) to denounce Balthazar - after all, except for the fact the gods stripped Balthazar of his divinity, everything about why that happened came from Kormir and her projections - and so does over half of the reasons why people think Lyssa's gone evil ("eventually the gods, even Lyssa" - "Lyssa taunted me as I decided to stay" - "he was disguised by Lyssa's Mirror when he left the Mists fooling the gods until it was too late"). Which incidentally lines up with an old GW1 prophecy by a mad soul that Kormir would go evil.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    I see, so the dwarfs are extinct? With a few exceptions? Like ogden? I thought they cannot die since stone unlike a body out of blood and flesh doesnt "die" when being torn apart. Isnt there a dwarfen head somewhere in game, still alive and talking, which confirmes the dwarfs to be still alive in some form or capacity?

    Stone dwarves don't die of old age (except maybe erosion....), but they can be broken into pieces, like Rhoban. I imagine if you smash the head, they no longer talk. But in large, if you smash them into a pile of rubble, they're effectively dead. Rhoban was the sole survivor of a small group in charge of maintaining the Ember Bay volcanoes, who were on the surface and targeted by destroyers. Given both Ogden and Rhoban (and others) frequently say that the dwarves are gone for good now (and even devs have said the reason why destroyers are breaching the surface is because the dwarven forces are gone / too few in numbers now to make a difference), indicates that as a race, even a race of stone, the dwarves are no more.

    Again, we may find some lone survivors here and there, some may be in pieces like Rhoban, but chances are given established lore, we will never see double diget numbers.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Yes this whole thing is wrapped up perfectly so that it is completely unnecessary to ever go there. I still hope bubbles or a new storyline will lead us there. I know the echowald isnt out of stone anymore, and the jade sea gas turned back into liquid, at least i heard so, but maybe shing jea island and a bit of kaineng city would be enough for a little excursion. A man can dream...

    Rather than "the Echovald isn't out of stone and the Jade Sea was turned back into liquid" it's more that at the end of GW1, there were rumors that such was beginning to happen (though in all honesty, we also see evidence of such in Factions itself). It's never hinted at whether this had made significant progress, and in Festival of the Four Winds we do see a carp fish statue made from jade, presumably the jade of the Jade Sea.

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    I talked with my guild leader about E aswell, and he simply explained that it's lady camilla einshorn. E short for einshorn. If you go to the wiki you can read through quite a lot of information that cofirms this to a very heavy degree. I didnt talk to the npc myself yet, but will do soon. Maybe you can get a bit deeper into that, as one of the big lore masters of the game.

    That's pure speculation. And doesn't really make much sense to me. Camilla is our Herald from the PS/Dungeons. E is a spymaster in Kryta with agents in the Seraph, Shining Blade, and Order of Whispers. They fulfilled similar roles when introduced (leading the PC towards new developments of interests / plot lines), but Camilla was "collector of heroic stories" and while she followed the PC's exploits, she were also interested in Destiny's Edge's stories (and this was the main premise for the letters - having the PC help her uncover why DE broke up, and to help reunite them). E never made such prompts, and instead seemed focused solely on political states and prompted the Commander towards potential/known political issues involving Kryta and Lion's Arch (the biggest exception being pointing them to Mordremoth's activity in western Brisban, but there were also bandit/white mantle activity nearby and E seemed unsure about the source of the commotion, and so sent a letter to the PC and Marjory - the latter very interested in bandit/White Mantle/corrupt ministers).

    The two couldn't be more different in their approaches.

    Personally, I'm in favor of Lord Faren being E. We didn't see him during the White Mantle issue either. And fun tidbit: E knew about the assassination attempt on the PC during the Unknown Parents storyline's first instance and... Lord Faren is there. Making a mockery of a date, sure, but he's there. He's also there at just about every political mishap we don't hear of E, while missing wherever we do hear of E - though I suppose that could be a coincidence.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    On a similar note, was it confirmed who gave the egg to the Master in that hologram? Was it a Forgotten?

    It was Vlast's voice actor, I believe.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    The Wizard's Tower is meant to be left open. The whole point of it is the mystery. If they were to delve into it (as they have hinted at previously) any mystique would be destroyed. Some things are better left to the imagination. Sometimes it can be better just to look up and wonder. The Tower is one of those things. If they sadly decide to bring it out of its mystery, it will be a raid I am pretty certain.

    You know that mysterious evil dude sitting in his chair, petting his black cat, never revealing his face? Or the glowing suitcase from Pulp Fiction? In the tradition of story telling even mysteries have to serve a purpose. Just haveing a mystery for the sake of it doesn't work and is bad story telling by defintion. So even if that might be the final word of the devs it is still huge wasted potential.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Lyssa and Balthazar I think we can all agree on was an odd set up which went nowhere and seems now to be dropped.

    Maybe. I personally believe it could have gone somewhere for sure. But nonetheless, creating lore and then dropping it before it is concluded is not only unprofessional but also very dissatisfying. However we don't know for sure. They still can bring it up again I suppose.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    E. They all but confirmed this was dropped. It's the problem when they rotate new writers in who have different ideas for the direction of the game and the story evolves away in a new direction. E may return, but I think that's dropped along with all the other S2 open threads. E sums up GW2's narrative really. A random idea, which went nowhere, sorta came back, went nowhere and all because of a whimisical approach to storytelling

    Again, unprofessional and dissatisfying. But we all have to deal with it, i guess.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Malyck was partially written and ideas still float around, but they haven't found a way or the time to put it back in since it was cut since it no longer relates to the main story. I suspect we will get a short web story and that will close it off.

    I have heard rumours about that. I wish they would put these stuff IN the game, and not just write some text and put it somewhere on a website. I have never understood this sentiment and I never will.

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Joko I think they answered last Halloween and you can go back to it again this year. I am happy to be corrected, but I think we've got all we are going to get on him now.

    Oh I didn't know that. I usually check the Wiki for lore, but I cannot find this "answer" anywhere. Can you provide a link or a hint where to look for it maybe?

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Cantha is unlikely to ever happen. It's not really an open plot since Cantha hasn't figured in GW2. The potential exists and there are plenty of ways to deal with a story there, but I'm not seeing Cantha becoming a part of the game now.

    Yes, the community has come to term with this mentality concerning cantha, or at least it seems so. But really, you can say that about anything. Before the path of fire expansion someone could have said the same about Balthazar's or any of the God's involvement in the story. I didn't see Balthazar becoming a part of the game, but it still happened. That's the wonderful thing with story telling, nothing really is impossible, however some thing might be more difficult to set up in a satisfying way than others.
    Whatever the reasons may be for Cantha not to be released, with all the nostalgia surrounding it one would think the finencial potential is there without doubt. But I might be wrong about that.

    Ill address three points

    • Mystery for the sake of mystery is not bad storytelling if done correctly. And here it is done correctly. No matter what they do with it, itll never live up to 15 years speculation and imagination. Allowing the readers to wonder and imagine is what fantasy was meant to be about. Sure its evolved so that every last tiny detail is often over explained, but a good fantasy writer will find ways to allow their reader to “dream”. Mysteries allow for that. Perhaps labelling it “mystery for the sake of mystery” is a misleading term, but such things absolutely must exist. I will emphasise though that it doesnt work for everything and every sutuation.

    • In the patch notes for halloween it mentions about visiting a general in la if you defeated joko. Try that quest line and collection. Esp the items you pick up along the way. Again, Im going off a vague memory

    • Financially i have no doubt cantha would be a huge success

    To add to this... there was a time not long ago where every single fiction genre in popular media was making an effort to try and scientifically explain EVERYTHING that was extraordinary. That includes SciFi, Fantasy, Mysteries, and even Religion were trying to gain validity by attempting to break down every single minute detail as if part of a large mechanical system. I don't remember what kicked it off.... but this was all part of a large push for "hard science" in fiction. I wanna say Lost... but it might be older then that.

    The problem that immediately arose is that a LOT of writers were not good at maintaining consistency, and rapid increase in complexity mixed with pseudoscience caused many to quickly paint themselves into corners. Lots of lines wasted on exposition that likely wouldn't pay off later, or opened new questions that were never meant to be asked. Much of this comes from stories going longer they ever planned, or a just a lack of experience in long story arcs. You all have to remember that sprawling multi-season, interconnected story lines were almost non-existent before the Sopranos became popular.... and the writing staff needed for it, incredibly rare. Most shows were written season to season, not knowing if they'll get renewed for another year.

    It was a terrible time of arbitrary rules, difficult suspension of disbelief, lots of sloppy attempts to retcon without looking like a retcon, plot holes, lost threads, jarring character shifts, and a fair share of Studio meddling driven by a desire for ratings. Member midichlorians? I member....

  • I want the Nightmare Court story from HoT that was cut out so amateurishly they left the end point in.

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Cantha: Yeh yeh, I know, there is a big schism among the community about this.

    The only schism here is "Don't kitten off Asian countries" because cultural mixing.

    The part that kills me is that the DR Cantha District could have easily been kept in the US and EU servers. Gotta bend that knee tho.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenoSpyro.1780 said:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    Cantha: Yeh yeh, I know, there is a big schism among the community about this.

    The only schism here is "Don't kitten off Asian countries" because cultural mixing.

    The part that kills me is that the DR Cantha District could have easily been kept in the US and EU servers. Gotta bend that knee tho.

    There's more to it than that- there's been a pretty vocal segment on this forum who've worried that Cantha will end up precisely like Balthazar's inclusion in PoF, taking something neat from GW1 and then stripping away all of the things that, well, made it neat. There's also an equally vocal segment of mostly GW2 players who are sick of everything trying to tie back to the first game and think ANet could deliver a more creative and coherent story if they struck out for the blank areas of the map where they aren't so hedged in by the old setting.

    (And then there's me, who just thinks three out of the four Canthan regions were bland and depressing.)

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Simply because to make GW2 a long running game with the plots yet untouched, so they can be used in the future.

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2019

    The short of it is basically, like all long-running franchises GW2 is designed haphazardly and shifts between artists, coders and writers, so things change even on the scale from map to map where we can go from one map being all hearts and another to being all dynamic events.

    The story is impacted by this heavily, and while they maintain consistency in the overall narrative they can't on a small scale.

    It has very little to do with GW2, this is just how media is in general, and how real life is; The world is messy, people are messy, alot of us end up as completely different people only five or ten years (or less) after we were someone else. It has alot to do with something lasting a long time and being unable to maintain consistency for the entirety of its lifetime, and this ranges from Human lives to even just transient art and culture, and its important to understand that all media is ultimately a subset of art and culture, even video games.

    Part of the problem is that consistency becomes boring, no matter how much we wish for it, and how irritating it is to lack it, we also don't find it stimulating and as a result progress tends to push towards more diversity, instability, the new and the bold, etc. Now think about how company profits are directly correlated with society and the Human condition and you begin to understand how things end up like this.

    This may seem too metaphysical for you but its the truth, especially MMOs which are psychologically heavy.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Tempest, Water mage | Also Bappy Pawbeans, Soulbeast | ♀♥♀
    Sorry if I seem annoying or harsh, I'm just bad at communicating properly. ><
    /"Love me, hate me, but always love me" - Unknown/

  • @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    (And then there's me, who just thinks three out of the four Canthan regions were bland and depressing.)

    GW1 was a fairly depressing and dark game by design. I don't think any of the regions were "bland" but I can definitely agree with "depressing" but the same goes for half of any campaign really.

    GW2 lost a lot of this.

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Part of the problem is that consistency becomes boring, no matter how much we wish for it, and how irritating it is to lack it, we also don't find it stimulating and as a result progress tends to push towards more diversity, instability, the new and the bold, etc.

    I heavily disagree here. Maintaining consistency in lore is not boring. What's boring is constant predictability, mediocre writing, and focusing on the same plots.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Abraxxus.8971Abraxxus.8971 Member ✭✭✭

    As far as Malyks and the Nightmare Courts parts in HoT that were cut, the devs could go back, and dust those parts off, spruce them up and release them as short side story quest lines that take place in the Maguuma Jungle.

    Bring back Ceara

  • Because this is simply how you write long running narratives.
    If every loose end was tied up at the end of an expansion then there would be nothing to speculate about in between story updates.
    If every loose end was tied up with a season there would be cohesion and the plot wouldn't feel like it was moving anywhere.
    (See: the last episode of season 3 was largely discounted from the narrative so it could tie up a loose end.)

    Imagine If all the questions we had were answered, then the next story thread could feel like it came out of left field or was unrelated.

    This way the community has things to speculate on during down time, and the narrative team has(more-or-less) backup stories to splash in if they feel like they need to fill in a space.

    It is kinda sad we have to wait to hear all the answers but I guess that's just how it is.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    (And then there's me, who just thinks three out of the four Canthan regions were bland and depressing.)

    GW1 was a fairly depressing and dark game by design. I don't think any of the regions were "bland" but I can definitely agree with "depressing" but the same goes for half of any campaign really.

    GW2 lost a lot of this.

    It's a matter of taste. Echovald was overwhelmingly one color palette, and the Jade Sea and Kaineng had the same issue to lesser extents (as did the Crystal Desert, Ring of Fire, and Kourna- it certainly wasn't confined to Factions, just more pronounced there). There was still a variety of assets and regional variations in play, but especially with Echovald and Kaineng, those distinctions tended to bleed together and get lost in the broad strokes.

    While I don't mind dark, those three also had a vibe going that the other devastated regions of GW1 lacked; places like post-Searing Ascalon or the Realm of Torment may have been nightmares, but they were nightmares that we were actively fighting back against. Other places- the Crystal Desert, the Desolation, the Ring of Fire- were avoided by civilization. Cantha was the only place where humans took the wastelands (and, in Kaineng's case, the waste) for granted as the daily backdrop of life.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.