Couldn't Aurene create more scions to replace the other Elder Dragons? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Couldn't Aurene create more scions to replace the other Elder Dragons?

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

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Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    Hi Daniel! That's a great question. Maybe she needs to reach maturity before she can start laying. The time taken to do so may be thousands of years.

    Perhaps part of this story is the idea that the dragons are searching for an evolutionary step that will take them from parthenogenesis to a form of reproduction akin to that with which we are familiar: matings between male and female in the bonds of love.

    Aurene may be that next step. Remember, she's a hybrid.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    Hi Daniel! That's a great question. Maybe she needs to reach maturity before she can start laying. The time taken to do so may be thousands of years.

    Perhaps part of this story is the idea that the dragons are searching for an evolutionary step that will take them fr

    She currently exceeds her mother in size. It is possible reproduction maturity is somehow separate from the rest of physical maturity but yeah.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    I also thought this thing, but Aurene is currently only a fast-growing puppy. However, a lot of time will have to pass.

  • She's three.

    But a bit more seriously: we do not know what prerequisites exist for "high dragon" reproduction. Similarly, Glint's eggs were in hibernation for centuries before they hatched, and we're rather on the clock for fixing things.

    Episodes 5 and 6 also made it a bit ambiguous as to whether a crystal dragon could even properly replace the other Elder Dragons, since there were plans made for Aurene to replace Kralkatorrik in the first place, despite evidence suggesting the original plan was for Aurene to replace Mordremoth (and Vlast to replace Zhaitan) based on the nursery cities' locations.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    She currently exceeds her mother in size. It is possible reproduction maturity is somehow separate from the rest of physical maturity but yeah.

    Size != reproductive growth

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    She's three.

    But a bit more seriously: we do not know what prerequisites exist for "high dragon" reproduction. Similarly, Glint's eggs were in hibernation for centuries before they hatched, and we're rather on the clock for fixing things.

    Episodes 5 and 6 also made it a bit ambiguous as to whether a crystal dragon could even properly replace the other Elder Dragons, since there were plans made for Aurene to replace Kralkatorrik in the first place, despite evidence suggesting the original plan was for Aurene to replace Mordremoth (and Vlast to replace Zhaitan) based on the nursery cities' locations.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    She currently exceeds her mother in size. It is possible reproduction maturity is somehow separate from the rest of physical maturity but yeah.

    Size != reproductive growth

    Well yes. And as a 3 year old is she is around or past sexual maturity for most reptiles. Not to mention becoming an Elder Dragon is more than a size change. But yes, we would need more information.

    Edit: I would say at the rate we are going her scion could replace Bubbles.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Well yes. And as a 3 year old is she is around or past sexual maturity for most reptiles.

    There's literally nothing to indicate this, and even if so, comparing to reptiles isn't really an adiquate thing to do because reptiles aren't breathing magical creatures.

    Not to mention becoming an Elder Dragon is more than a size change.

    Sure, but nothing shows it changes maturity either.

    Aurene may have grown every time she consumed a ton of magic, but that's just size increase and not really biological maturity. Though we don't even know how to establish biological maturity for high dragons since they're more magical than physical beings.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Well yes. And as a 3 year old is she is around or past sexual maturity for most reptiles.

    There's literally nothing to indicate this, and even if so, comparing to reptiles isn't really an adiquate thing to do because reptiles aren't breathing magical creatures.

    I meant "as a 3 year old is she is around or past [the age at which at which most reptiles have reached sexual maturity]" because you felt pointing out she's three was necessary. Her suddenly having scions would only be shocking to us as humans.

    Not to mention becoming an Elder Dragon is more than a size change.

    Sure, but nothing shows it changes maturity either.

    Aurene may have grown every time she consumed a ton of magic, but that's just size increase and not really biological maturity. Though we don't even know how to establish biological maturity for high dragons since they're more magical than physical beings.

    I would see from a physical standpoint why she might buck the trend for egg-laying creatures. Megafauna usually take longer. I don't see magic impeding this. She can already make crystals that move.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    if shes capable, writers probably will introduce a "high cost" to this, to avoid "cheap solution" plot.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I meant "as a 3 year old is she is around or past [the age at which at which most reptiles have reached sexual maturity]" because you felt pointing out she's three was necessary. Her suddenly having scions would only be shocking to us as humans.

    Ignoring the fact that I was pretty clearly making a bit of a joke in the immediate followup, not all reptiles reach reproduction capabilities by three years of age. But those creatures that do tend to live in decades at tops, not millenniums. The longest living reptiles are turtles, averaging 150 year lifespans, and while the maturity rate varies between species of turtles, with some being as short as 10 years, sea turtles take 20-30 years, at least one species taking to 40 years to reach maturity (Galapagos tortoises).

    Even then, using RL reptiles is pretty much moot since they're not magically infused creatures living several millennia long lives.

    I would see from a physical standpoint why she might buck the trend for egg-laying creatures. Megafauna usually take longer. I don't see magic impeding this. She can already make crystals that move.

    I feel that corrupting and creating scions are two vastly different things for Elder Dragons, otherwise we should be considering any minion to be a scion, or at least the "hand-forged" ones like The Shatterer and Wraithbringer. But we've not yet received any indication that they count as scions.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I meant "as a 3 year old is she is around or past [the age at which at which most reptiles have reached sexual maturity]" because you felt pointing out she's three was necessary. Her suddenly having scions would only be shocking to us as humans.

    Ignoring the fact that I was pretty clearly making a bit of a joke in the immediate followup, not all reptiles reach reproduction capabilities by three years of age. But those creatures that do tend to live in decades at tops, not millenniums. The longest living reptiles are turtles, averaging 150 year lifespans, and while the maturity rate varies between species of turtles, with some being as short as 10 years, sea turtles take 20-30 years, at least one species taking to 40 years to reach maturity (Galapagos tortoises).

    Even then, using RL reptiles is pretty much moot since they're not magically infused creatures living several millennia long lives.

    I would see from a physical standpoint why she might buck the trend for egg-laying creatures. Megafauna usually take longer. I don't see magic impeding this. She can already make crystals that move.

    I feel that corrupting and creating scions are two vastly different things for Elder Dragons, otherwise we should be considering any minion to be a scion, or at least the "hand-forged" ones like The Shatterer and Wraithbringer. But we've not yet received any indication that they count as scions.

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    This would be the creepiest direction the plot could take. Aurene's most important, world saving feature would be her womb, her physically and emotionally immature womb. Are you picturing her as willing or would the Commander have to convince her to close her eyes and think of Tyria?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

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  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @derd.6413 said:

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

    All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Regh.8649Regh.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    Wait what?! no! Jethus cwith!
    What we need is to find a way to put them back to sleep somehow… dunno, maybe beat them with a stick or somethin
    Just stay away from aurene!

    Formula for success: Rise early, work hard, strike oil.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

    All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

    see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

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  • @Palador.2170 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Very true.

    @derd.6413 said:
    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

    1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.
    2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.
    3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Very true.

    @derd.6413 said:
    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

    1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.
    2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.
    3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

    let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

    possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

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  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

    All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

    see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

    I was being facetious with the more efficient pregnancy and possibly marsupial comment. I think solving the stability of the All problem by making Aurene a mother would be creepy, lazy and unfulfilling.

    We don't know what the requirements are for replacing an Elder dragon except that you need to be a dragon though. Is there any evidence that the job could be done by non Elder dragons without re-engineering the structure of the All? That is where I think the story is going. The current representation of the All with six balancing spheres is only one possible configuration for a stable All. Tyria's configuration is the unique result of its history and ecology that can be altered. I think the question is whether Aurene ends up being the solely responsible for the integrity of the All (which would be very dangerous since there is a single point of failure) or if the structure becomes more complex with more and smaller spheres representing things such as the races of Tyria, a stable but messy configuration.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @derd.6413 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Very true.

    @derd.6413 said:
    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

    1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.
    2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.
    3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

    let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

    possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

    They are already in that quadrant.

    • Aurene eats Joko at the end of Be My Guest. Taimi retches, Canach is "utterly disturbed," etc. Quaggans and several other races lay eggs. It is a step down in creepiness from eating humanoids.
    • The PC and now Gorrik have spent a good deal of time hatching and rapidly raising dragons. First Aurene and now the Skyscale.

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

    All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

    see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

    I was being facetious with the more efficient pregnancy and possibly marsupial comment. I think solving the stability of the All problem by making Aurene a mother would be creepy, lazy and unfulfilling.

    There is a difference between laying eggs and becoming a mother. Glint had two scions we know of. Through whatever circumstance Aurene could end up with 0. Or 1+ but too late, and the dragons had to be replaced/put into stasis/etc.

    We don't know what the requirements are for replacing an Elder dragon except that you need to be a dragon though. Is there any evidence that the job could be done by non Elder dragons without re-engineering the structure of the All? That is where I think the story is going. The current representation of the All with six balancing spheres is only one possible configuration for a stable All. Tyria's configuration is the unique result of its history and ecology that can be altered. I think the question is whether Aurene ends up being the solely responsible for the integrity of the All (which would be very dangerous since there is a single point of failure) or if the structure becomes more complex with more and smaller spheres representing things such as the races of Tyria, a stable but messy configuration.

    We don't know you have to be a dragon. We know you have to be able to absorb and release magic, which is why the Pale Tree is often mentioned.
    Regardless of configuration, it is implied Aurene cannot become solely responsible without going insane. Whether we get more dragons like Kuunavang, or more dragon champions to do it, we need to share the burden.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    Aurene is a new type of dragon. She may be much more efficient at being pregnant. Maybe she is a marsupial.

    All snark aside, I would love to see dragon-kind return to Tyria. I just don't see how that is possible without making them unable to consume as much magic as they can now or giving them homogenized and pathological personalities. All dragons would have to be good or unable. I would prefer dragons have agency and less power. Aurene could still be a mother but that would be part of her breaking the hold dragons and Elder dragons have on the All. Imagine her giving up her status as Elder dragon as part of transforming dragon-kind into a stable species that couldn't be an existential threat; giving her a people where she could find love as any Quaggon or Human may.

    see my first point again, secondly aurene has multiple siblings hidden somewhere and besides who says that a ED replacement has to be a dragon from birth

    I was being facetious with the more efficient pregnancy and possibly marsupial comment. I think solving the stability of the All problem by making Aurene a mother would be creepy, lazy and unfulfilling.

    We don't know what the requirements are for replacing an Elder dragon except that you need to be a dragon though. Is there any evidence that the job could be done by non Elder dragons without re-engineering the structure of the All? That is where I think the story is going. The current representation of the All with six balancing spheres is only one possible configuration for a stable All. Tyria's configuration is the unique result of its history and ecology that can be altered. I think the question is whether Aurene ends up being the solely responsible for the integrity of the All (which would be very dangerous since there is a single point of failure) or if the structure becomes more complex with more and smaller spheres representing things such as the races of Tyria, a stable but messy configuration.

    i was more insinuating that becoming an ED turns whatever it is that replaces one into a dragon but doesn't need to be a dragon prior to "ascending". (like a benevolent fafnir)

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  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    THIS right here is a very good question to ask. Even more so since we now know that there's some kind of higher power that created the Elder Dragons (as evident from Kralki saying, "mother" before he dieded) so once we sort things out with Bangar and his BRILLIANT plan for trying to tame Jormag (I mean WHY DIDN'T CAUDECUS THINK OF THAT, IT'S 100% GONNA WORK WITHOUT THINGS GOING SOUTH FASTER THEN WHEN THE PACT ATTACKED MORDY WITH AIRSHIPS!!! xD), we might have to look into what this means. :D

  • I'm hoping will have to go out into the unknown to find more replacements.

    Aurene can handle magics that Kralkatorrik could not, so it doesn't seem that she's limited to a certain type of magic, but I don't think Aurene can replace 3 elder Dragons worth of magic all on her own for too long.
    So the Commander should start looking for candidates for more replacements sooner or later.

    Likely Caithe will contact the commander on Aurene's behalf, explain that she under too much strain. Then send us back to our roots on a old style exploratory quest to find more replacements. Possibly other dragons or friendly entities and corresponding 'champions' to complete the cycle of magic sharing.

    What could the replacements possibly be?

    • We do not know how elder dragons reproduce. We know that Glint had eggs, but we do not know how they were created. Did they gave bith to them? How did Kralkatorrik begot Glaust? Even if Aurene did create eggs, we would still need to go out there and infuse them with magic to make them hatch, like with Aurene's egg, so we'd probably need to find suitable leyline hubs and places of power for it. Maybe even go and find all the other four Bloodstones and crack them open. We have seen and the Maguuma bloodstone destroyed, and we more or less know the location of the ring of fire and shiverpeaks bloodstones, but we have no idea about the fourth bloodstone piece and the keystone.
    • The pale tree probably has her hands full managing the Sylvari connection to the Dream, so she's probably out of the question as a replacement candidate.
    • Mordrem Guard have reverted back to sylvari after Mordremoth died, and Malyck's tree was offcamera since it had to be cut from HoT. But it doesn't seem like her tree had conscience or a connection to the Dream. So maybe his tree survived and reverted from a blighting tree, and we can figure a way to fix her, give it conscience like we did with Mawdrew, and make Malyck her champion. And make them take care of Mordremoth's share of magic. There's room for a new map for it south of Tarir and east from Tangled Depths.
    • Tthe Djinn are also sharing magic too. But I do not know if it's just Adhashim's magic between each other only or with the world. A flame djinn was corrupted by Kralkatorrik after getting a boost from Balthazar, but we do not know why. It could just be all the extra power overpowering the djinn defenses, or because godly fire magic from Balthazar giving him an extra edge against a fire djinn, or maybe Djinn are actually some form of undead spirit imbued with elemental magic like their skull-like faces suggest, and Zhaitan's magic allowed Kralkatorrik to death-brand him. Could we have the entire djinn community act as a replacement for an elder dragon?
    • Cantha had countless Saltspray dragons that were corrupted by the Jade Wind, includding Kuunavang. The corruption began to revert after Abaddon was defeated, and most of the Jade Sea should be water again by now. Maybe one of the surviving Canthan dragons could help for that.
    • Orr had lots of undead dragons that were turned into dragon zombies by the Cataclysm, then risen by Zhaitan. Could there be any survivors of the original race of dragons that preceded dragon zombies and risen dragons out in the world?
    • And there's many unknown lands we've never visited before, far to the east and west, north of the far Shiverpeaks and south from Cantha.
  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Very true.

    @derd.6413 said:
    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

    1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.
    2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.
    3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

    let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

    possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

    I will rephrase to be more family friendly.
    Creepiness is what you make it. School children watch butterflies hatch from pupa, lay eggs, and die.

    The seven year old Sylvari PC has killed more people than seven year old humans do in our reality. If you want to count years in the pod, then apply the same to Aurene. She is hundreds of years old.

  • Palador.2170Palador.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thinking about it, I think Aurene is the only Elder Dragon we need, but we need a new system to help her. Basically, lesser "dragons" (need not be actual dragons) that bring in and redistribute magic, with her as the control point above it all to make sure it all stays balanced.

    However, I don't think we can just make those new ... dragons? Demi-gods?... without paying a high price. We saw what Aurene went through to ascend, and I think it'll be similar for anyone else. Aurene is going to have to pick people she knows, to make sure they can handle it and are compatible with the job, and kill them to remake them into what's needed. If I'm right, this could turn very ugly for her (and for the Commander).

    Lip synching is just mime karaoke.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Palador.2170 said:
    Thinking about it, I think Aurene is the only Elder Dragon we need, but we need a new system to help her. Basically, lesser "dragons" (need not be actual dragons) that bring in and redistribute magic, with her as the control point above it all to make sure it all stays balanced.

    However, I don't think we can just make those new ... dragons? Demi-gods?... without paying a high price. We saw what Aurene went through to ascend, and I think it'll be similar for anyone else. Aurene is going to have to pick people she knows, to make sure they can handle it and are compatible with the job, and kill them to remake them into what's needed. If I'm right, this could turn very ugly for her (and for the Commander).

    I don't think that is possible or glint/ancient races would have already done it to stop the dragonrise. Sealing background magic into a bloodstone was an extreme last resort. At our current level of progress we caused primordus/jormag to retreat for under a year, by accident.

    Edit: or if it possible it is immensely terrible. Such as branding all life. She would be able to filter all magic and there would be world peace. Problem sovled?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    One came out of an egg. The other was twisted soil and air. How is that "not vastly different" or "a good enough portion is made of the same material"?

    Aurene has fleshy scales, as did Vlast and Glint. The Shatterer and Wraithbringer do not - they're pure rock and air, like Kralkatorrik's "sandstorm form" we see in PoF and A Star to Guide Us.

    And even if we say she could lay eggs to spawn scions, we'd have to deal with this:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Even if Aurene did create eggs, we would still need to go out there and infuse them with magic to make them hatch, like with Aurene's egg, so we'd probably need to find suitable leyline hubs and places of power for it.

    And in all honesty, I doubt anyone wants to basically repeat the plot of Season 2, Heart of Thorns, Season 3, Path of Fire, and Season 4 five times.

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    • Tthe Djinn are also sharing magic too. But I do not know if it's just Adhashim's magic between each other only or with the world. A flame djinn was corrupted by Kralkatorrik after getting a boost from Balthazar, but we do not know why. It could just be all the extra power overpowering the djinn defenses, or because godly fire magic from Balthazar giving him an extra edge against a fire djinn, or maybe Djinn are actually some form of undead spirit imbued with elemental magic like their skull-like faces suggest, and Zhaitan's magic allowed Kralkatorrik to death-brand him. Could we have the entire djinn community act as a replacement for an elder dragon?

    In the Sun's Refuge achievement, it's revealed that the djinn's immunity comes from magic infused in the Desolation's sands by... Abaddon. So the implication is that Kralkatorrik absorbing a sample of divine-like magic allowed him to finally break through what has prevented all Elder Dragons from corrupting any of the Six Gods' or Forgotten's magic for the past few thousand years.

    • Cantha had countless Saltspray dragons that were corrupted by the Jade Wind, includding Kuunavang. The corruption began to revert after Abaddon was defeated, and most of the Jade Sea should be water again by now. Maybe one of the surviving Canthan dragons could help for that.

    ArenaNet already said that "lesser dragons" cannot become Elder Dragons. Though this only included wyverns, hydras, drakes, and skyscales, the chances are high that Canthan dragons are included since they're very wyvern and/or drake-like. Saltspray Dragons are basically serpentine wyverns.

    This likely extends to whatever dragon race the Bone Dragons come from, or any other foreign "dragon".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Palador.2170 said:
    Thinking about it, I think Aurene is the only Elder Dragon we need, but we need a new system to help her. Basically, lesser "dragons" (need not be actual dragons) that bring in and redistribute magic, with her as the control point above it all to make sure it all stays balanced.

    However, I don't think we can just make those new ... dragons? Demi-gods?... without paying a high price. We saw what Aurene went through to ascend, and I think it'll be similar for anyone else. Aurene is going to have to pick people she knows, to make sure they can handle it and are compatible with the job, and kill them to remake them into what's needed. If I'm right, this could turn very ugly for her (and for the Commander).

    Technically we already begun that through the Commander and Caithe. In All or Nothing, Glint says this:

    Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
    Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.
    Glint: Good. Power has many uses, Scion. By choosing to share it and heal wounds, you strengthen your bond with mortals.
    Glint: Remember that bond. As the power grows, so will the dangers. And the temptations.
    Glint: More powerful still, and more dangerous...
    Glint: Well done. When Elder Dragons gorge on magic with abandon, the world falls out of balance. We have no choice but to act.
    Glint: To use power responsibly is to know when and how to share it—and when not to use it at all. Now continue to the next trial.
    

    Basically this foreshadowed the whole "Aurene can handle conflicting magics". She can handle it because she shares the burden by connecting to the Commander (and later, Caithe). But the amount of a burden she had then is much, much smaller than now. She'll need to make more connections to maintain her ability, most likely.

    However, that's dealing with conflicting magic. That isn't balancing The All. Keep in mind that "the balance of magic" and "the balance of The All" (aka "the Elder Dragon (im)balance") are two different things, even though they're related. While your suggestion would solve the first issue, it would not solve the second issue, which is the cause of "the world will die when one more Elder Dragon dies without a replacement".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Very true.

    @derd.6413 said:
    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

    1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.
    2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.
    3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

    let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

    possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

    I will rephrase to be more family friendly.
    Creepiness is what you make it. School children watch butterflies hatch from pupa, lay eggs, and die.

    you're a genuine sociopath if you think that

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Palador.2170 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    It's also possible that her rapid growth came at a cost, and she's sterile.

    Very true.

    @derd.6413 said:
    1) that'd be creepy

    2) aurene took several hundred years to hatch

    3) that'd be seen by many as a cop out

    1) to humans? Sylvari drop out of pods fully grown. That's creepy too.
    2) and Vlast did not. Crystal dragons apparently need a trigger to hatch. The several hundred years was because that trigger came late.
    3) yes? But not really relevant to whether she can or not. She could always have eggs that are destroyed.

    let me put it this way: possible in lore with the info we currently have? yes.

    possible anet will take the story in a direction resembling this? not in this quadrant of the multiverse

    I will rephrase to be more family friendly.
    Creepiness is what you make it. School children watch butterflies hatch from pupa, lay eggs, and die.

    you're a genuine sociopath if you think that

    Given that both your and my previous comments were removed I will keep it very light.

    Children raise butterflies in elementary school. Those butterflies hatch and lay eggs. And in some instances are promptly eaten by birds. Heck some adults raise butterflies, or lizard pairs, etc. The vast majority of all age groups are able to handle this because they don't know the specifics or are mature enough to not care.

    If this is too creepy for you then don't visit almost any zoo on the face of this earth. Your desire to compare every other animal to humans has no bearing on reality.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Different yes. But not vastly so. A good enough portion is made of the same material. And it seems unlikely her rapid growth only affected her essential organs.

    One came out of an egg. The other was twisted soil and air. How is that "not vastly different" or "a good enough portion is made of the same material"?

    Aurene has fleshy scales, as did Vlast and Glint. The Shatterer and Wraithbringer do not - they're pure rock and air, like Kralkatorrik's "sandstorm form" we see in PoF and A Star to Guide Us.

    She shares a fundamental resonance with them. Whether her scales are or appear fleshy is irrelevant. Enough is shared that she isn't starting from scratch.

    And even if we say she could lay eggs to spawn scions, we'd have to deal with this:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Even if Aurene did create eggs, we would still need to go out there and infuse them with magic to make them hatch, like with Aurene's egg, so we'd probably need to find suitable leyline hubs and places of power for it.

    And in all honesty, I doubt anyone wants to basically repeat the plot of Season 2, Heart of Thorns, Season 3, Path of Fire, and Season 4 five times.

    We wouldn't need to do anything. Vlast was hatched without our help or an Elder Dragon dying. Just leave it to the pokemon day care we call Tarir, and come back when it's hatched.

    And on that note we have only raised one out of how many crystal dragons? What makes us experts on what is needed?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    While it's not confirmed it does appear that all Dragons in Gw2 reproduce asexually.
    Glint came from Kralkatorrik, this we know but there is no mention of Kralk ever having a mate and the same for Aurine and Vlast who came from Glint with again, no mention of a mate.
    Mordremoth seemingly give birth to or created seeds as well without any mention of a mate, one of these being the Pale Tree which is a sentient entity and could very well be considered Mordremoth's child/offspring.
    This is one of the reasons many don't seem to care for any narrative regarding Jormag's gender identity since Dragons shouldn't be associated with such human concepts due to seemingly being an asexual species.
    Words like mother, daughter, grandfather etc really only exist to simplify the game for the users.
    Scion being used for Aurine and Vlast is far more appropriate than Him/Her or Son and Daughter tbh..
    Likewise Aurine addressing Glint as Parent rather than Mother would also be more appropriate.. and Aurine calling Kralkatorrik Progenitor rather than Granfather etc

    Aurine is still very young though despite having the body and power of an Elder Dragon now.
    I dunno if she's bigger than Glint.. might be about the same size however she is still puny small compared to any other Elder Dragon.. From Primordus head in LWS3 and Jormags tooth in their home town.. the size of those two very likely dwarf her.. so I highly doubt it's accurate to say Aurine has the body of a full grown adult, I'd bet over the next few centuries she's going to get significantly bigger ^^ and yeah she very likely will eventually lay her own eggs.
    The real question will be.. what kind of eggs/scions will they be considering she is the first of her kind of dragon.. so to speak :)

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    The real question will be.. what kind of eggs/scions will they be considering she is the first of her kind of dragon.. so to speak :)

    Unless the change did something we aren't aware of she is still a crystal dragon. Kralkatorrik was describing her in the present tense before her ascension and most likely referring to her ability to sort magic without killing people.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    The real question will be.. what kind of eggs/scions will they be considering she is the first of her kind of dragon.. so to speak :)

    Unless the change did something we aren't aware of she is still a crystal dragon. Kralkatorrik was describing her in the present tense before her ascension.

    The way she's been described is that she's more of a prism.. a dragon of light rather than the crystal dragon that she was.
    She may still be crystaline in form though.. or glass like but she could also be literally a dragon made out of light..
    We've seen very little of her since her ascention so her ascended form is still a bit of a mystery.

    What I meant when I referenced first of her kind was more related to her abilities more than her physical traits.
    Kralkatorrik and Aurine are very different beings both in physical traits and abilities so it will be interesting to see what this Elder Aurine is capable of producing as scions.
    Glint and default Aurine were much like Kralkatorrik in terms of physical traits.. but ascended Aurine is something very different.
    Will Aurines scions look more like her original form.. or will they look more like glass dragons?.. will they share in her powers or be more like lesser Dragons?
    There's a good chance we'll never know this.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    However, that's dealing with conflicting magic. That isn't balancing The All. Keep in mind that "the balance of magic" and "the balance of The All" (aka "the Elder Dragon (im)balance") are two different things, even though they're related. While your suggestion would solve the first issue, it would not solve the second issue, which is the cause of "the world will die when one more Elder Dragon dies without a replacement".

    Would you explain how you think they are different? I think the All is just how Tyrian magic is bound together into a cohesive whole by living beings. The All would be the manifestation of the link between magic and mind. If we assume the All existed prior to the emergence of Elder Dragons then there could have been many other configurations for the All that depended on what was living and processing magic. Are you assuming that the All has always had or must have the current configuration? Couldn't the current configuration reflect the character of the Elder dragons? If so, destroying the current configuration would still be dangerous because they have made themselves vital to the processing of magic and have been eliminating other beings capable of processing magic.

    Granted, convincing players that the All can be reconfigured would be challenging but there are ways to thoroughly describe how it could be done. That may even be Jormag's plan. Entice Aurene to help him reconfigure the All so that together they could rule Tyria.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    The real question will be.. what kind of eggs/scions will they be considering she is the first of her kind of dragon.. so to speak :)

    Unless the change did something we aren't aware of she is still a crystal dragon. Kralkatorrik was describing her in the present tense before her ascension.

    The way she's been described is that she's more of a prism.. a dragon of light rather than the crystal dragon that she was.
    She may still be crystaline in form though.. or glass like but she could also be literally a dragon made out of light..
    We've seen very little of her since her ascention so her ascended form is still a bit of a mystery.

    What I meant when I referenced first of her kind was more related to her abilities more than her physical traits.
    Kralkatorrik and Aurine are very different beings both in physical traits and abilities so it will be interesting to see what this Elder Aurine is capable of producing as scions.
    Glint and default Aurine were much like Kralkatorrik in terms of physical traits.. but ascended Aurine is something very different.
    Will Aurines scions look more like her original form.. or will they look more like glass dragons?.. will they share in her powers or be more like lesser Dragons?
    There's a good chance we'll never know this.

    Glass falls under crystal in this game because it is superheated sand. As do most prisms.

    Her sphere of influence is light not her form. And that name has to do with her having several domains and that being analogous to making white light. Light the substance is under the fury domain.

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

    How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?
    Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling or do we assume she will be willing because the need is so compelling?

    Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    She shares a fundamental resonance with them. Whether her scales are or appear fleshy is irrelevant. Enough is shared that she isn't starting from scratch.

    That has nothing to do with her biology though. That comes from Kralkatorrik twisting everything into his image.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We wouldn't need to do anything. Vlast was hatched without our help or an Elder Dragon dying. Just leave it to the pokemon day care we call Tarir, and come back when it's hatched.

    And on that note we have only raised one out of how many crystal dragons? What makes us experts on what is needed?

    Given our knowledge now, it seems likely that Vlast either hatched from Glint gathering magic over millennia, or from Abaddon's death, as it seems Vlast hatched after Prophecies but (obviously) before Eye of the North. This means us "doing nothing" will take millennia for the eggs to hatch and become Elder Dragons. Obviously not a viable solution.

    Both Vlast and Aurene were effectively raised the same way. What difference there was, was a champion to link to the scion. Vlast had none, and became a grim, brooding individual who's love for mortals was merely respect for his mother's love for mortals. This key difference, as well as the time it took for Vlast to mature compared to Aurene, showcases what is needed - expert or no.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

    How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

    When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

    Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

    Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

    Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

    Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Mordremoth seemingly give birth to or created seeds as well without any mention of a mate, one of these being the Pale Tree which is a sentient entity and could very well be considered Mordremoth's child/offspring.

    Regarding this bit, the Ogre Camp meta in Tangled Depths indicates that Blighting Trees are not spawns of Mordremoth, but rather great trees corrupted by him. The implication I got was that they were stonewood trees as stonewood are known to be the largest trees in the Maguuma, and the Great Tree which is being corrupted into a Blighting Tree (curiously, wiki is lacking quite a bit of dialogue from this chain, including the line that it's being corrupted into a blighting tree) is of the same model as two other massive trees that mark being the largest in the Maguuma (the other two being the Ancient Tree and the Heart of Thorns tree).

    I dunno if she's bigger than Glint.. might be about the same size however she is still puny small compared to any other Elder Dragon.

    She's bigger than Glint now for sure. Though Glint's size in GW2 was reduced a bit it seems; Aurene's new Elder Dragon model pulled from the dat seems on par to the typical dragon champions. Though we only have Aurene's comparison to humans to go off of atm until that_shaman, Vyko, or someone else puts up a comparison image.

    From Primordus head in LWS3 and Jormags tooth in their home town.. the size of those two very likely dwarf her.. so I highly doubt it's accurate to say Aurine has the body of a full grown adult, I'd bet over the next few centuries she's going to get significantly bigger ^^ and yeah she very likely will eventually lay her own eggs.

    I actually did a model comparison with Jormag's tooth, which was roughly the a proper size for All or Nothing Kralkatorrik's mouth. This would indicate that - baring dimensions - Jormag is roughly the same size as Kralkatorrik. Primordus' head is absurdly larger than even that though.

    So yeah, they'll dwarf Aurene still. Even Zhaitan is bigger than Aurene.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    She shares a fundamental resonance with them. Whether her scales are or appear fleshy is irrelevant. Enough is shared that she isn't starting from scratch.

    That has nothing to do with her biology though. That comes from Kralkatorrik twisting everything into his image.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We wouldn't need to do anything. Vlast was hatched without our help or an Elder Dragon dying. Just leave it to the pokemon day care we call Tarir, and come back when it's hatched.

    And on that note we have only raised one out of how many crystal dragons? What makes us experts on what is needed?

    Given our knowledge now, it seems likely that Vlast either hatched from Glint gathering magic over millennia, or from Abaddon's death, as it seems Vlast hatched after Prophecies but (obviously) before Eye of the North. This means us "doing nothing" will take millennia for the eggs to hatch and become Elder Dragons. Obviously not a viable solution.

    Both Vlast and Aurene were effectively raised the same way. What difference there was, was a champion to link to the scion. Vlast had none, and became a grim, brooding individual who's love for mortals was merely respect for his mother's love for mortals. This key difference, as well as the time it took for Vlast to mature compared to Aurene, showcases what is needed - expert or no.

    Or the forgotten hatched him themselves using magic? You cannot apply one dragon to all. Much less think there are 0 other options.

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    Would you explain how you think they are different? I think the All is just how Tyrian magic is bound together into a cohesive whole by living beings. The All would be the manifestation of the link between magic and mind. If we assume the All existed prior to the emergence of Elder Dragons then there could have been many other configurations for the All that depended on what was living and processing magic. Are you assuming that the All has always had or must have the current configuration? Couldn't the current configuration reflect the character of the Elder dragons? If so, destroying the current configuration would still be dangerous because they have made themselves vital to the processing of magic and have been eliminating other beings capable of processing magic.

    Granted, convincing players that the All can be reconfigured would be challenging but there are ways to thoroughly describe how it could be done. That may even be Jormag's plan. Entice Aurene to help him reconfigure the All so that together they could rule Tyria.

    We don't fully know what The All is, but evidence suggests that those spheres, while relating to magic, is much, much more. The All is effectively the inner workings of the world and then some. The spheres are not the Elder Dragons themselves, but related to them; they're somehow tied to the stars around Tyria, and some Priory scholars theorize they're spirit realms. (Fun fact: This wouldn't be the first time stars seem to reflect the events of spirit realms.)

    As Taimi explained during Flashpoint, the issue of magical overflow is not at a critical point yet. Though it's need to be balanced for Tyria to maintain itself, and we're going towards the extreme of too much magic, we're not near there yet; Taimi had theorized we could survive a few more Elder Dragon deaths before that became an issue. But The All is imbalanced, and its further imbalance - maintained by the existence of Elder Dragons - would destroy the world before the excess of magic could.

    If the issue with the world's destruction was simply "too much magic in the world", then the problem could be fixed by letting Balthazar absorb that magic and leave. The entire reason we antagonized him (besides the idiocy of "you've been doing good but you're pretending to be a mursaat and lied to me so I will bash your face in until you reveal yourself!" of Taimi's Pet Project instance) was because too much magic wasn't the issue.

    When Taimi showed her hologram, despite the fact that Primordus, Kralkatorrik, and Jormag had taken the lionshare of Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic between the three of them, the spheres for those two were still idle. This shows that their roles have not yet had replacements, despite the fact the magic was taken over. If it was merely an issue of magical balance, then in theory Primordus' and Kralkatorrik's sphere should have been altered, and Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's spheres begin to vanish/shrink.

    We are also told that one Elder Dragon becoming much more powerful will further this imbalance at the end of Path of Fire:

    : Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.
    : Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

    All of this pulls back to our first description of The All: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Map_of_the_All

    Six large bodies orbit the world, existing in primal symbiosis. The energies move with the push and pull of positive and negative, ever in motion.

    Obviously, the Elder Dragons themselves do not orbit the world. This is in reference to the spheres - these supposed "spirit realms" - which the Elder Dragons are connected to - and death of the Elder Dragons remove that "push and pull of positive and negative" for their respective orb.

    TL;DR
    * ArenaNet has not yet fully defined The All.
    * Evidence suggests the stars and spirit realms are, or are directly related to, the orbs.
    * The Elder Dragons are not the orbs themselves, but are indeed connected to them, so much so that death of Elder Dragons causes the relevant orbs to go inert.
    * Reducing magic in the world won't solve the imbalance, even if another Elder Dragon were to consume the majority of it the old spheres of dead Elder Dragons remain inert and otherwise unchanged.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    The way she's been described is that she's more of a prism.. a dragon of light rather than the crystal dragon that she was.
    She may still be crystaline in form though.. or glass like but she could also be literally a dragon made out of light..
    We've seen very little of her since her ascention so her ascended form is still a bit of a mystery.

    Dat diving spoilers:

    That_Shaman pulled out her model from the gw.dat recently, and she's very much still crystalline. More crystal than flesh now, in fact. Her full body mirrors that of her new branding.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    She shares a fundamental resonance with them. Whether her scales are or appear fleshy is irrelevant. Enough is shared that she isn't starting from scratch.

    That has nothing to do with her biology though. That comes from Kralkatorrik twisting everything into his image.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We wouldn't need to do anything. Vlast was hatched without our help or an Elder Dragon dying. Just leave it to the pokemon day care we call Tarir, and come back when it's hatched.

    And on that note we have only raised one out of how many crystal dragons? What makes us experts on what is needed?

    Given our knowledge now, it seems likely that Vlast either hatched from Glint gathering magic over millennia, or from Abaddon's death, as it seems Vlast hatched after Prophecies but (obviously) before Eye of the North. This means us "doing nothing" will take millennia for the eggs to hatch and become Elder Dragons. Obviously not a viable solution.

    Both Vlast and Aurene were effectively raised the same way. What difference there was, was a champion to link to the scion. Vlast had none, and became a grim, brooding individual who's love for mortals was merely respect for his mother's love for mortals. This key difference, as well as the time it took for Vlast to mature compared to Aurene, showcases what is needed - expert or no.

    Or the forgotten hatched him themselves using magic? You cannot apply one dragon to all. Much less think there are 0 other options.

    Ah, yes, the Forgotten. Who were busy resurrecting their kind after the Hero of Nightfall slaughtered through them by the hundreds.

    It doesn't change the fact that magic is needed to hatch the eggs. Who provided that magic for Vlast isn't nearly as relevant as the fact that magic was needed to be provided. And as such, magic will be needed to hatch Aurene's hypothetical eggs as well, as well as needed to hasten the growth of these new scions so that they can survive a conflict with an Elder Dragon and be ready to take on the burden of becoming an Elder Dragon. Which brings us back to my original point that any "raising of Aurene's scions into new Elder Dragons" will effectively be repeating the shared plot that was Season 2 to Season 4.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    She shares a fundamental resonance with them. Whether her scales are or appear fleshy is irrelevant. Enough is shared that she isn't starting from scratch.

    That has nothing to do with her biology though. That comes from Kralkatorrik twisting everything into his image.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We wouldn't need to do anything. Vlast was hatched without our help or an Elder Dragon dying. Just leave it to the pokemon day care we call Tarir, and come back when it's hatched.

    And on that note we have only raised one out of how many crystal dragons? What makes us experts on what is needed?

    Given our knowledge now, it seems likely that Vlast either hatched from Glint gathering magic over millennia, or from Abaddon's death, as it seems Vlast hatched after Prophecies but (obviously) before Eye of the North. This means us "doing nothing" will take millennia for the eggs to hatch and become Elder Dragons. Obviously not a viable solution.

    Both Vlast and Aurene were effectively raised the same way. What difference there was, was a champion to link to the scion. Vlast had none, and became a grim, brooding individual who's love for mortals was merely respect for his mother's love for mortals. This key difference, as well as the time it took for Vlast to mature compared to Aurene, showcases what is needed - expert or no.

    Or the forgotten hatched him themselves using magic? You cannot apply one dragon to all. Much less think there are 0 other options.

    Ah, yes, the Forgotten. Who were busy resurrecting their kind after the Hero of Nightfall slaughtered through them by the hundreds.

    It doesn't change the fact that magic is needed to hatch the eggs. Who provided that magic for Vlast isn't nearly as relevant as the fact that magic was needed to be provided. And as such, magic will be needed to hatch Aurene's hypothetical eggs as well, as well as needed to hasten the growth of these new scions so that they can survive a conflict with an Elder Dragon and be ready to take on the burden of becoming an Elder Dragon. Which brings us back to my original point that any "raising of Aurene's scions into new Elder Dragons" will effectively be repeating the shared plot that was Season 2 to Season 4.

    In the event there are no more scions, not from Aurene, nor hidden Glint eggs, nor Kuunavang, nor Skyscale, is the world doomed?
    At best the Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    In the event there are no more scions, not from Aurene, nor hidden Glint eggs, nor Kuunavang, nor Skyscale, is the world doomed?
    At best the Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth.

    No, it would just mean we cannot kill the remaining Elder Dragons and must find a way to put them into a more permanent hibernation instead.

    Unless, of course, ArenaNet decides to retcon the lore they established in Season 3 and Path of Fire and proclaim Aurene as the One True Elder Dragon who replaces them all.

    Which would be a bad retcon, imo.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Would you explain how you think they are different? I think the All is just how Tyrian magic is bound together into a cohesive whole by living beings. The All would be the manifestation of the link between magic and mind. If we assume the All existed prior to the emergence of Elder Dragons then there could have been many other configurations for the All that depended on what was living and processing magic. Are you assuming that the All has always had or must have the current configuration? Couldn't the current configuration reflect the character of the Elder dragons? If so, destroying the current configuration would still be dangerous because they have made themselves vital to the processing of magic and have been eliminating other beings capable of processing magic.

    Granted, convincing players that the All can be reconfigured would be challenging but there are ways to thoroughly describe how it could be done. That may even be Jormag's plan. Entice Aurene to help him reconfigure the All so that together they could rule Tyria.

    We don't fully know what The All is, but evidence suggests that those spheres, while relating to magic, is much, much more. The All is effectively the inner workings of the world and then some. The spheres are not the Elder Dragons themselves, but related to them; they're somehow tied to the stars around Tyria, and some Priory scholars theorize they're spirit realms. (Fun fact: This wouldn't be the first time stars seem to reflect the events of spirit realms.)

    As Taimi explained during Flashpoint, the issue of magical overflow is not at a critical point yet. Though it's need to be balanced for Tyria to maintain itself, and we're going towards the extreme of too much magic, we're not near there yet; Taimi had theorized we could survive a few more Elder Dragon deaths before that became an issue. But The All is imbalanced, and its further imbalance - maintained by the existence of Elder Dragons - would destroy the world before the excess of magic could.

    If the issue with the world's destruction was simply "too much magic in the world", then the problem could be fixed by letting Balthazar absorb that magic and leave. The entire reason we antagonized him (besides the idiocy of "you've been doing good but you're pretending to be a mursaat and lied to me so I will bash your face in until you reveal yourself!" of Taimi's Pet Project instance) was because too much magic wasn't the issue.

    When Taimi showed her hologram, despite the fact that Primordus, Kralkatorrik, and Jormag had taken the lionshare of Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic between the three of them, the spheres for those two were still idle. This shows that their roles have not yet had replacements, despite the fact the magic was taken over. If it was merely an issue of magical balance, then in theory Primordus' and Kralkatorrik's sphere should have been altered, and Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's spheres begin to vanish/shrink.

    We are also told that one Elder Dragon becoming much more powerful will further this imbalance at the end of Path of Fire:

    : Taimi, focus... When Balthazar died, Kralkatorrik absorbed most of his freed energy.
    : Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

    All of this pulls back to our first description of The All: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Map_of_the_All

    Six large bodies orbit the world, existing in primal symbiosis. The energies move with the push and pull of positive and negative, ever in motion.

    Obviously, the Elder Dragons themselves do not orbit the world. This is in reference to the spheres - these supposed "spirit realms" - which the Elder Dragons are connected to - and death of the Elder Dragons remove that "push and pull of positive and negative" for their respective orb.

    TL;DR
    * ArenaNet has not yet fully defined The All.
    * Evidence suggests the stars and spirit realms are, or are directly related to, the orbs.
    * The Elder Dragons are not the orbs themselves, but are indeed connected to them, so much so that death of Elder Dragons causes the relevant orbs to go inert.
    * Reducing magic in the world won't solve the imbalance, even if another Elder Dragon were to consume the majority of it the old spheres of dead Elder Dragons remain inert and otherwise unchanged.

    That still leaves the question of whether the current configuration of the All predates the emergence of the Elder Dragons. Is the All always seeking 6 living creatures to fill the spheres. Where there 6 Elder Amoebae? I am not being snarky, it is an important question if we are to understand the connection between the All and Elder Dragons. I am very curious how the studio with explain the All. I hope they don't abandon the premise by waving a wand making it irrelevant because Aurene. From my perspective Tyrian magic looks a lot like panpsychism and I don't think the All makes sense as something that always needs to be in a 6 sphere configuration.

    edit: If the Elder Dragons are responsible for the current 6 sphere configuration then eliminating an Elder Dragon would result in phantom limb spheres because the Elder Dragons are still maintaining the All's expectation/history/framework of a 6 sphere configuration.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

    How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

    When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

    Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

    Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

    Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

    Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

    Don't hide behind children. Aurene is not a butterfly, she is a self aware entity with agency. Despite your efforts she can not be reduced to her reproductive plumbing. If Aurene must save the world by having children we should deal with the implications beyond her physical ability to have children. If we can't deal with the implications, we shouldn't use motherhood as a deus ex.

    You are genuinely confusing. If we can't bring Aurene's hypothetical eggs out of stasis, why have her lay them?

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    In the event there are no more scions, not from Aurene, nor hidden Glint eggs, nor Kuunavang, nor Skyscale, is the world doomed?
    At best the Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth.

    No, it would just mean we cannot kill the remaining Elder Dragons and must find a way to put them into a more permanent hibernation instead.

    Unless, of course, ArenaNet decides to retcon the lore they established in Season 3 and Path of Fire and proclaim Aurene as the One True Elder Dragon who replaces them all.

    Which would be a bad retcon, imo.

    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    I agree one dragon alone is a bad idea.

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