Couldn't Aurene create more scions to replace the other Elder Dragons? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Couldn't Aurene create more scions to replace the other Elder Dragons?

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  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

    How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

    When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

    Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

    Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

    Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

    Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

    Don't hide behind children. Aurene is not a butterfly, she is a self aware entity with agency. Despite your efforts she can not be reduced to her reproductive plumbing. If Aurene must save the world by having children we should deal with the implications beyond her physical ability to have children. If we can't deal with the implications, we shouldn't use motherhood as a deus ex.

    You are genuinely confusing. If we can't bring Aurene's hypothetical eggs out of stasis, why have her lay them?

    Aurene is not a human. She is a self aware entity that also chose to eat Joko and brand Caithe. What is one more taboo? She is not guaranteed to share any of your values, even if you personally find them to be important.

    You cannot say to not reduce her to her plumbing and in the next breath say motherhood must be protected from dues ex. Either her parts are such a fraction of her identity that it is of no consequence. Or you are treating motherhood to a degree that demeans people who chose to end the process, or cannot begin in the first place. I don't see you championing the Pale Tree to do more than sit around and make children. Maybe start there first. Or don't because neither she, nor Glint, nor eventually Aurene are mothers any more than they are fathers.

    Edit: all I'm saying is approach this from the standpoint people have different religious beliefs in game and out.

  • rule of thumb: the bigger an animal, the longer it takes to reach sexual maturity.

    Aurene is huge, so it will take a huge time for her to start laying eggs.

    So much time that the only being alive now AND then will be the Pale Tree, who at that point will have flooded all of Tyria with her cute and curious offspring. Offspring who will be thrilled to try this never before tasted, delicious looking food.

  • @Psientist.6437 said:
    That still leaves the question of whether the current configuration of the All predates the emergence of the Elder Dragons. Is the All always seeking 6 living creatures to fill the spheres. Where there 6 Elder Amoebae? I am not being snarky, it is an important question if we are to understand the connection between the All and Elder Dragons. I am very curious how the studio with explain the All. I hope they don't abandon the premise by waving a wand making it irrelevant because Aurene. From my perspective Tyrian magic looks a lot like panpsychism and I don't think the All makes sense as something that always needs to be in a 6 sphere configuration.

    edit: If the Elder Dragons are responsible for the current 6 sphere configuration then eliminating an Elder Dragon would result in phantom limb spheres because the Elder Dragons are still maintaining the All's expectation/history/framework of a 6 sphere configuration.

    By our understanding, The All has existed as long as Thyria has existed, since The All is effectively the magical equivalent of the world's magnetic field, atmosphere, etc.

    Whether there have always been "six Elder Dragon-like beings" is still left unclear, and may remain unclear forever. Since the beginning, we've known the current Elder Dragons to have predated two dragonrises before the last. If every cycle really is 10,000 years, then we're talking over 30,000 years ago. Obviously this goes well beyond any records we've gotten, and likely will ever get unless Aurene somehow got Kralkatorrik's memories.

    At the same time, however, we've been led to believe that the Elder Dragons are literally "as old as the world itself". That's been the developers' go-to line about the Elder Dragons' age: "since time immemorial" / "as old as the world". Until Season 4 finale, that is. With Kralkatorrik's death, we finally got a hint that maybe the Elder Dragons aren't as old as the world, because at least one of them has a parent.

    I would argue from what we know about the six spheres being in a "constant push and pull of positive and negative", that they indeed were always in six. If only one existed at any point, well, nothing to push/pull against it, thus imbalance. Imbalance results in cataclysm. Same happens if there's just two. Three could in theory happen, but the push-pull of positives and negatives seems to be done in pairs - just as Primordus and Jormag are opposites, and Zhaitan and Mordremoth are opposites with Fire/Ice and Plant/Death, giving the implication that Kralkatorrik/Aurene and S... are opposites - it's also possible that it's two sets of pairs, if the secondary domains also function in opposites.

    With the existence of opposites - possibly in double pairs - then any odd number wouldn't really fit for the All working as less than six, nor would 2. This would imply at minimum 4 spheres always in existence (and this same reasoning would be why 4 is our minimum of living Elder Dragons before devastation) but just plopping a new orb or two into the mix would really mess things up for a while (if not permanently). Since six is the "default state" Thyria has reached, I'd imagine there always was six.

    Whether or not Elder Dragon-like entities were always connected to these spheres, however, is another matter. But if they weren't, then the first generation of Elder Dragons did something to mess with the push-and-pull energies and made those dependent on the Elder Dragons' existence.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    No? Why would forcing the Elder Dragons into hibernation be at all pushing "this topic past the life span" of the races? It's still happening here and now. Hence the forcing and not waiting them to drain magic from a more-saturated-than-ever-before magical world.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    No? Why would forcing the Elder Dragons into hibernation be at all pushing "this topic past the life span" of the races? It's still happening here and now. Hence the forcing and not waiting them to drain magic from a more-saturated-than-ever-before magical world.

    Well yes, you force them now. But you still end up replacing them later since hibernation can be heralded out of. And their general disposition is unchanged. If millennia are required to hatch them then most alive today won't be dealing with it.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    No? Why would forcing the Elder Dragons into hibernation be at all pushing "this topic past the life span" of the races? It's still happening here and now. Hence the forcing and not waiting them to drain magic from a more-saturated-than-ever-before magical world.

    Well yes, you force them now. But you still end up replacing them later since hibernation can be heralded out of. And their general disposition is unchanged. If millennia are required to hatch them then most alive today won't be dealing with it.

    Interesting idea Daniel. Your suggestion is that we simply put them back to sleep indefinitely.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    No? Why would forcing the Elder Dragons into hibernation be at all pushing "this topic past the life span" of the races? It's still happening here and now. Hence the forcing and not waiting them to drain magic from a more-saturated-than-ever-before magical world.

    Well yes, you force them now. But you still end up replacing them later since hibernation can be heralded out of. And their general disposition is unchanged. If millennia are required to hatch them then most alive today won't be dealing with it.

    Working on the presumption that despite having an almost recovered dragon champion and an Elder Dragon on the side of mortals, and multiple species with the knowledge that Elder Dragons need magic to rise (something they lacked before GW2; and they even lacked the knowledge that Elder Dragons existed before they rose), that the mortals of Tyria are still incapable of reducing the amount of magic in the world to a point where there's not enough for whatever few minions remain after a proactive genocide of icebrood, destroyers, and whatever-the-DSD's-minions-are to re-raise Jormag, the main difference between these two "that's a matter for another day" scenarios is that one method (waiting on scions) leaves the threats active and out there; while the other method (forcing hibernation) the threat is no longer active and out there.

    Right now, the active threats are not "Primordus, Jormag, and the DSD". It's "the DSD, icebrood, and destroyers". Primordus and Jormag are still, by all indication, in their little cocoon states. If ArenaNet wanted to, they could have left Jormag and Primordus to never be touched again until a hypothetical GW3, and it would work out fine. They still can, if the Icebrood Saga's plot is "stopping the rise of Jormag" and not "stopping Jormag" (it will no doubt become the former first, regardless).

    In all honesty, plotwise, GW2 could have ended with Season 4 (and some devs thought it might, given the unnanounced projects in development of which we're still not privy to). Without scions to replace the other five Elder Dragons. Because two were dead, one was replaced, two were in hibernation, and one was barely ever talked about ever. They were not active threats.

    That's the main difference: active threat versus not.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    The real question will be.. what kind of eggs/scions will they be considering she is the first of her kind of dragon.. so to speak :)

    Unless the change did something we aren't aware of she is still a crystal dragon. Kralkatorrik was describing her in the present tense before her ascension.

    The way she's been described is that she's more of a prism.. a dragon of light rather than the crystal dragon that she was.
    She may still be crystaline in form though.. or glass like but she could also be literally a dragon made out of light..
    We've seen very little of her since her ascention so her ascended form is still a bit of a mystery.

    What I meant when I referenced first of her kind was more related to her abilities more than her physical traits.
    Kralkatorrik and Aurine are very different beings both in physical traits and abilities so it will be interesting to see what this Elder Aurine is capable of producing as scions.
    Glint and default Aurine were much like Kralkatorrik in terms of physical traits.. but ascended Aurine is something very different.
    Will Aurines scions look more like her original form.. or will they look more like glass dragons?.. will they share in her powers or be more like lesser Dragons?
    There's a good chance we'll never know this.

    Glass falls under crystal in this game because it is superheated sand. As do most prisms.

    Her sphere of influence is light not her form. And that name has to do with her having several domains and that being analogous to making white light. Light the substance is under the fury domain.

    Yes but you can argue that crystal and glass have different properties.
    You can't see through many crystals but you can see through most glass.

    Kralk, Glint, Vlast and Aurine all shared similar physical traits originally, a dragon body with crystals growing out of it but Aurines elder form is vastly different from anything we've seen in the world so far.
    She looks almost elemental.. like she's made completely out of light not crystal.
    Until the devs really define her new form in game we can only specualte what she actually looks like now.

    If I had to guess I would say she looks like Glint albiet a dragon made of clear crystal rather than exactly like Glint.. think of a clear glass ornament with a glowing light eminating from within her.

    I'd bet She definitely doesn't look anything like her previous form or Kralkatorrik though.
    That's why i'm curious as to what her offspring would look like and what abilities they would have.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Mordremoth seemingly give birth to or created seeds as well without any mention of a mate, one of these being the Pale Tree which is a sentient entity and could very well be considered Mordremoth's child/offspring.

    Regarding this bit, the Ogre Camp meta in Tangled Depths indicates that Blighting Trees are not spawns of Mordremoth, but rather great trees corrupted by him. The implication I got was that they were stonewood trees as stonewood are known to be the largest trees in the Maguuma, and the Great Tree which is being corrupted into a Blighting Tree (curiously, wiki is lacking quite a bit of dialogue from this chain, including the line that it's being corrupted into a blighting tree) is of the same model as two other massive trees that mark being the largest in the Maguuma (the other two being the Ancient Tree and the Heart of Thorns tree).

    I think Anet really need to flesh out the lore on this for clarity sake.
    If the Pale Tree seeds are indeed the same then wouldn't that make these Ancient trees a sentient species capable of spawning their own race as well?

    I dunno if she's bigger than Glint.. might be about the same size however she is still puny small compared to any other Elder Dragon.

    She's bigger than Glint now for sure. Though Glint's size in GW2 was reduced a bit it seems; Aurene's new Elder Dragon model pulled from the dat seems on par to the typical dragon champions. Though we only have Aurene's comparison to humans to go off of atm until that_shaman, Vyko, or someone else puts up a comparison image.

    I have not seen this model, is it the same one used in the cutscene or was it added in with the recent patch for her little flyby moment?
    I'm not sure I would trust any mined models atm until we have a solid in game one to compare it too.

    From Primordus head in LWS3 and Jormags tooth in their home town.. the size of those two very likely dwarf her.. so I highly doubt it's accurate to say Aurine has the body of a full grown adult, I'd bet over the next few centuries she's going to get significantly bigger ^^ and yeah she very likely will eventually lay her own eggs.

    I actually did a model comparison with Jormag's tooth, which was roughly the a proper size for All or Nothing Kralkatorrik's mouth. This would indicate that - baring dimensions - Jormag is roughly the same size as Kralkatorrik. Primordus' head is absurdly larger than even that though.

    So yeah, they'll dwarf Aurene still. Even Zhaitan is bigger than Aurene.

    Primordus is the real dragon of interest when it comes to size..
    Anet really went the full mile when they put his head in the game and give us a taste of how massive he is.
    Until that point I had convinced myself that Kralkatorrik was likely going to be the biggest of them since we'd seen Primordus in Gw1 and we'd also seen Kralkatorrik who was a litteral mountain range in that game.
    Kralkatorrik definitely came across as the most massive in Gw1 but Gw2 flipped that in LWS3 and give Primoruds a serious upgrade.
    Definitely made me excited to see what his whole body is going to look like.
    I only hope that the design change didn't sacrifice any prominent features of his art and original design.. namely his wings.
    It would be really disappointing if he'd been changed into more of a serpent or wurm like creature.
    I very much want to see him erupt from the earth at some point and fly through the sky spewing volcanic hellfire down on everything below.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Mordremoth seemingly give birth to or created seeds as well without any mention of a mate, one of these being the Pale Tree which is a sentient entity and could very well be considered Mordremoth's child/offspring.

    Regarding this bit, the Ogre Camp meta in Tangled Depths indicates that Blighting Trees are not spawns of Mordremoth, but rather great trees corrupted by him. The implication I got was that they were stonewood trees as stonewood are known to be the largest trees in the Maguuma, and the Great Tree which is being corrupted into a Blighting Tree (curiously, wiki is lacking quite a bit of dialogue from this chain, including the line that it's being corrupted into a blighting tree) is of the same model as two other massive trees that mark being the largest in the Maguuma (the other two being the Ancient Tree and the Heart of Thorns tree).

    I think Anet really need to flesh out the lore on this for clarity sake.
    If the Pale Tree seeds are indeed the same then wouldn't that make these Ancient trees a sentient species capable of spawning their own race as well?

    I dunno if she's bigger than Glint.. might be about the same size however she is still puny small compared to any other Elder Dragon.

    She's bigger than Glint now for sure. Though Glint's size in GW2 was reduced a bit it seems; Aurene's new Elder Dragon model pulled from the dat seems on par to the typical dragon champions. Though we only have Aurene's comparison to humans to go off of atm until that_shaman, Vyko, or someone else puts up a comparison image.

    I have not seen this model, is it the same one used in the cutscene or was it added in with the recent patch for her little flyby moment?
    I'm not sure I would trust any mined models atm until we have a solid in game one to compare it too.

    From Primordus head in LWS3 and Jormags tooth in their home town.. the size of those two very likely dwarf her.. so I highly doubt it's accurate to say Aurine has the body of a full grown adult, I'd bet over the next few centuries she's going to get significantly bigger ^^ and yeah she very likely will eventually lay her own eggs.

    I actually did a model comparison with Jormag's tooth, which was roughly the a proper size for All or Nothing Kralkatorrik's mouth. This would indicate that - baring dimensions - Jormag is roughly the same size as Kralkatorrik. Primordus' head is absurdly larger than even that though.

    So yeah, they'll dwarf Aurene still. Even Zhaitan is bigger than Aurene.

    Primordus is the real dragon of interest when it comes to size..
    Anet really went the full mile when they put his head in the game and give us a taste of how massive he is.
    Until that point I had convinced myself that Kralkatorrik was likely going to be the biggest of them since we'd seen Primordus in Gw1 and we'd also seen Kralkatorrik who was a litteral mountain range in that game.
    Kralkatorrik definitely came across as the most massive in Gw1 but Gw2 flipped that in LWS3 and give Primoruds a serious upgrade.
    Definitely made me excited to see what his whole body is going to look like.
    I only hope that the design change didn't sacrifice any prominent features of his art and original design.. namely his wings.
    It would be really disappointing if he'd been changed into more of a serpent or wurm like creature.
    I very much want to see him erupt from the earth at some point and fly through the sky spewing volcanic hellfire down on everything below.

    I have a theory about the order in which they rose and why, including why Mordremoth took so long to wake up and why he wouldn't have done so at all if Scarlet hadn't got to work on him. But I'll keep that to myself for now, 'cause the Jungle Trolls love the smell of blood...

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

    I wonder if the sylvari were plan A and Aurene was plan B. Mordremoth went after Aurene's egg to thwart plan B. I guess the outcome of plan A, in which the sylvari dominated all of the other races, somehow appealed to Mordremoth. Plan B might be an extension of the status quo - a multi-racial world full of dischord and disorder and...spell-casters.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    No? Why would forcing the Elder Dragons into hibernation be at all pushing "this topic past the life span" of the races? It's still happening here and now. Hence the forcing and not waiting them to drain magic from a more-saturated-than-ever-before magical world.

    Well yes, you force them now. But you still end up replacing them later since hibernation can be heralded out of. And their general disposition is unchanged. If millennia are required to hatch them then most alive today won't be dealing with it.

    Working on the presumption that despite having an almost recovered dragon champion and an Elder Dragon on the side of mortals, and multiple species with the knowledge that Elder Dragons need magic to rise (something they lacked before GW2; and they even lacked the knowledge that Elder Dragons existed before they rose), that the mortals of Tyria are still incapable of reducing the amount of magic in the world to a point where there's not enough for whatever few minions remain after a proactive genocide of icebrood, destroyers, and whatever-the-DSD's-minions-are to re-raise Jormag, the main difference between these two "that's a matter for another day" scenarios is that one method (waiting on scions) leaves the threats active and out there; while the other method (forcing hibernation) the threat is no longer active and out there. [snip]

    I am saying forced hibernation will inevitably also entail waiting on scions. Neither the reduction of minions nor magic has a good track record. Mordremoth essentially heralding himself using ley lines. The bloodstones causing widespread conflict even before they were opened by extradimensional entities. And even within the scion method itself, Aurene could hypothetically become unsuitable. Having the option to replace is important.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Her species is seemingly capable of asexual reproduction. And she appears to have the body of a full grown adult. Is there some reason she can't start laying eggs for us to rapid grow as we did with her?

    The real question will be.. what kind of eggs/scions will they be considering she is the first of her kind of dragon.. so to speak :)

    Unless the change did something we aren't aware of she is still a crystal dragon. Kralkatorrik was describing her in the present tense before her ascension.

    The way she's been described is that she's more of a prism.. a dragon of light rather than the crystal dragon that she was.
    She may still be crystaline in form though.. or glass like but she could also be literally a dragon made out of light..
    We've seen very little of her since her ascention so her ascended form is still a bit of a mystery.

    What I meant when I referenced first of her kind was more related to her abilities more than her physical traits.
    Kralkatorrik and Aurine are very different beings both in physical traits and abilities so it will be interesting to see what this Elder Aurine is capable of producing as scions.
    Glint and default Aurine were much like Kralkatorrik in terms of physical traits.. but ascended Aurine is something very different.
    Will Aurines scions look more like her original form.. or will they look more like glass dragons?.. will they share in her powers or be more like lesser Dragons?
    There's a good chance we'll never know this.

    Glass falls under crystal in this game because it is superheated sand. As do most prisms.

    Her sphere of influence is light not her form. And that name has to do with her having several domains and that being analogous to making white light. Light the substance is under the fury domain.

    Yes but you can argue that crystal and glass have different properties.
    You can't see through many crystals but you can see through most glass.

    Kralk, Glint, Vlast and Aurine all shared similar physical traits originally, a dragon body with crystals growing out of it but Aurines elder form is vastly different from anything we've seen in the world so far.
    She looks almost elemental.. like she's made completely out of light not crystal.
    Until the devs really define her new form in game we can only specualte what she actually looks like now.

    It doesn't matter whether it is light, crystal, amorphous glass, air, plasma, etc. They all fall under the crystal/fury domains and the potential body makeup of a crystal dragon. Her coating herself in any of those substances, such as Primordius did with rock and fire from GW1 to GW2, is not unusual.

    She has shinier crystals and brand. She is not made of light. This is what a dragon made of light looks like:

  • @Fenella.2634 said:
    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    As much as Kralk cared he could not stop himself. Aurene is the first of her kind because the other ED are completely beholden to the dragonrise cycle.

    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

    It is unknown whether Kuunavang from Gw1 is like Aurene or like Skyscales.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    As much as Kralk cared he could not stop himself. Aurene is the first of her kind because the other ED are completely beholden to the dragonrise cycle.

    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

    It is unknown whether Kuunavang from Gw1 is like Aurene or like Skyscales.

    Kuunavang joins Glint as a confirmed lesser dragon, as per TMOTW. If Glint comes from Kralk, where does Kuunavang come from? I'd be curious to learn your thoughts.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

    I wonder if the sylvari were plan A and Aurene was plan B. Mordremoth went after Aurene's egg to thwart plan B. I guess the outcome of plan A, in which the sylvari dominated all of the other races, somehow appealed to Mordremoth. Plan B might be an extension of the status quo - a multi-racial world full of dischord and disorder and...spell-casters.

    The Pale Tree was most likely cleansed in the same way as Glint. They do not figure into Mordremoths plans any more than the minions of other Elder Dragon's do to their masters. If anything they are a Plan A for the Forgotten. And we are going to find out whether that also included replacement.

    Nothing about their current situation appealed to Mordremoth. He had to force one of them to wake him up because the Pale Tree refused to herald him. And then they gave the people trying to kill him access to his weak point.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    As much as Kralk cared he could not stop himself. Aurene is the first of her kind because the other ED are completely beholden to the dragonrise cycle.

    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

    It is unknown whether Kuunavang from Gw1 is like Aurene or like Skyscales.

    Kuunavang joins Glint as a confirmed lesser dragon, as per TMOTW. If Glint comes from Kralk, where does Kuunavang come from? I'd be curious to learn your thoughts.

    Glint is not a lesser dragon. The current terminology floating around is high dragon.
    Lesser dragons are things like drakes, wyvern, hydra, skyscales etc which are unrelated to Elder Dragons.
    If Kuunavang was confirmed to be lesser he probably cannot help us.

    I personally have imagined he is one of the DSD scions. He is seems too sentient and powerful to be a lesser dragon.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I think Anet really need to flesh out the lore on this for clarity sake.
    If the Pale Tree seeds are indeed the same then wouldn't that make these Ancient trees a sentient species capable of spawning their own race as well?

    No. The Pale Tree is a purified Blighting Tree. By corrupting these trees into blighting trees, they become dragon champions capable of spawning minions; by becoming purified, they remain capable of spawning minions but are no longer enslaved to Mordremoth's will.

    Stonewood/Ancient Trees->[Corrupted by Mordremoth]->Blighting Trees->[Purified by unknown, likely Forgotten, means]->Pale Trees

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I have not seen this model, is it the same one used in the cutscene or was it added in with the recent patch for her little flyby moment?
    I'm not sure I would trust any mined models atm until we have a solid in game one to compare it too.

    It has the same silhouette as the cinematic but is different, more fleshed out. Here is that_shaman's imgur gallery. This is a recently added model, but it seems to still be a WIP as some parts aren't so solidly detailed. Still, since it has the same silhouette as her S4 finale, and the skin is the same as her corruption, it's 100% Aurene.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Primordus is the real dragon of interest when it comes to size..
    Anet really went the full mile when they put his head in the game and give us a taste of how massive he is.
    Until that point I had convinced myself that Kralkatorrik was likely going to be the biggest of them since we'd seen Primordus in Gw1 and we'd also seen Kralkatorrik who was a litteral mountain range in that game.
    Kralkatorrik definitely came across as the most massive in Gw1 but Gw2 flipped that in LWS3 and give Primoruds a serious upgrade.
    Definitely made me excited to see what his whole body is going to look like.
    I only hope that the design change didn't sacrifice any prominent features of his art and original design.. namely his wings.
    It would be really disappointing if he'd been changed into more of a serpent or wurm like creature.
    I very much want to see him erupt from the earth at some point and fly through the sky spewing volcanic hellfire down on everything below.

    I still hold the view that Primordus' size upgrade makes no sense. The size would now imply that Primordus' movements would be collapsing Central Tyria by traveling across it, even if it was twice the depth of the Titan's Throat volcano.

    And the design into a more generic crocodilian face is meh. Especially since the reason they gave for their redesign was "we never said that was Primordus in GW1". So now the rather cool, unique model (no wings, no forearms, just four tendrils, and four massive dorsal fins on its back, indicating that Primordus' body is that of a swimming reptile rather than flying) is seemingly being regulated to as a champion.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I have a theory about the order in which they rose and why, including why Mordremoth took so long to wake up and why he wouldn't have done so at all if Scarlet hadn't got to work on him. But I'll keep that to myself for now, 'cause the Jungle Trolls love the smell of blood...

    Just to note: The Elder Dragons do not need others to help them rise. Mordremoth would have awoken recently. Just as Primordus and Kralkatorrik awoke without their heralds. It's just that a herald champion helps them rise sooner.

    Given the delay that Primordus and Kralkatorrik had (~50 years), then without Scarlet, Mordremoth would have woken up circa 1375 AE instead of 1327 AE.

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Since they now retconned what EDs are anyway - oh sorry, I meant, we now learned more about them - we should actually have more options now.
    Originally, they were laid out as forces of nature without personality or complex thoughts. Now, we have an ED who cares for family and several who talk to us one way or another and form coherent thoughts. Oh, and they are corrupted, of course.

    Edge of Destiny attributed personality and complex thoughts to both Kralkatorrik and Jormag. This was before the game released. It wasn't a retcon to give them personalities. They always had them, they just weren't an active part of the Orr campaign.

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    So. Maybe we won't have to kill them at all and thereby won't have to worry about more replacements. Maybe we can just play dragon psychotherapists, deal with their corruptions and all live in peace? :lol:

    Good luck trying to convince an Elder Dragon who hates mortals to live with mortals. That's like going to a redneck KKK member suffering from chronic pain and mental disorders and telling them to get along with people of different skin colors.

    @Fenella.2634 said:
    Also, we should have more replacement options than Aurene and the Pale Tree. Wasn't there some other dragon from GW1 we could recruit? I guess Tequatl is dead in canon time, right? Maybe the Pact should start actively searching instead of waiting for solutions to show up last minute.

    Lesser dragons cannot become Elder Dragons, and that's all GW1 had besides Glint.

    And dragon champions won't necessarily ally with mortals, even if they can become Elder Dragons (unproven, but implied). Take this guy, who is a risen given free will again after Zhaitan's death. Despite having choice of his own, he decides to continue following Zhaitan's desires.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    I have a theory about the order in which they rose and why, including why Mordremoth took so long to wake up and why he wouldn't have done so at all if Scarlet hadn't got to work on him. But I'll keep that to myself for now, 'cause the Jungle Trolls love the smell of blood...

    Just to note: The Elder Dragons do not need others to help them rise. Mordremoth would have awoken recently. Just as Primordus and Kralkatorrik awoke without their heralds. It's just that a herald champion helps them rise sooner.

    Given the delay that Primordus and Kralkatorrik had (~50 years), then without Scarlet, Mordremoth would have woken up circa 1375 AE instead of 1327 AE.

    I disagree over the subject of whether Mordremoth would've woken at all, Konig.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    I wonder if the sylvari were plan A and Aurene was plan B. Mordremoth went after Aurene's egg to thwart plan B. I guess the outcome of plan A, in which the sylvari dominated all of the other races, somehow appealed to Mordremoth. Plan B might be an extension of the status quo - a multi-racial world full of dischord and disorder and...spell-casters.

    My theory is that the cleansing of the cave of seeds was a test run before the Forgotten went to cleanse a dragon champion. It would make sense to ensure that dragon minions could be cleansed, before even attempting to cleanse a dragon champion let alone scion. They likely chose Glint over other Elder Dragon scions (if there are any), because she was able to be lured to a proper location (as the cleansing ritual is geographically bound).

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I am saying forced hibernation will inevitably also entail waiting on scions. Neither the reduction of minions nor magic has a good track record. Mordremoth essentially heralding himself using ley lines. The bloodstones causing widespread conflict even before they were opened by extradimensional entities. And even within the scion method itself, Aurene could hypothetically become unsuitable. Having the option to replace is important.

    Forced hibernation doesn't inevitably entail waiting on scions. No need to replace Elder Dragons that will never rise again, and even if they might rise again, they wouldn't need to in this game because the threat is gone.

    Reduction of magic was never done properly before, because the Bloodstone was created near the end of the last dragonrise cycle - the Elder Dragons seeped too much magic into the world, and a new Bloodstone wasn't created because the Seers were effectively wiped out. And reduction of minions was done properly, but they missed the important ones (Drakkar, Great Destroyer) who created new ones once magic rose again.

    But this time there's no need for a Bloodstone, because there's an allied Elder Dragon. Presuming that Aurene can share the burden well enough, she could reduce magic in the world to the point of forcing the other Elder Dragons to hibernate, and keep them in hibernation.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Kuunavang joins Glint as a confirmed lesser dragon, as per TMOTW. If Glint comes from Kralk, where does Kuunavang come from? I'd be curious to learn your thoughts.

    The Movement of the World is highly retconned here and there as it was written in early development of GW2. In regards to Glint and Kuunavang, they're made comparable in the light of "they're nothing like the 'ancient dragons' (later renamed Elder Dragons)". At this point in time, Glint was not known to be a dragon champion. Let alone a scion of an Elder Dragon. There's no strong reason to believe Kuunavang is a dragon champion. Especially since, unlike Glint, Kuunavang holds no elemental alteratiions to her body, was affected by Shiro's Affliction, and there's an entire species of wyvern-like dragons with Kuunavang's appearance.

    Most likely scenario: Kuunavang is just a powerful and old lesser dragon.

    Later, however, after the Glint-champion reveal, Glint and Rotscale were put on par. Sadly, Rotscale is likely canonically dead.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    My theory is that the cleansing of the cave of seeds was a test run before the Forgotten went to cleanse a dragon champion. It would make sense to ensure that dragon minions could be cleansed, before even attempting to cleanse a dragon champion let alone scion. They likely chose Glint over other Elder Dragon scions (if there are any), because she was able to be lured to a proper location (as the cleansing ritual is geographically bound).

    Given how disasterous the Sylvari were for Mordremoth its possible they were more than a test. Were the forgotten aware of his weakness?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I am saying forced hibernation will inevitably also entail waiting on scions. Neither the reduction of minions nor magic has a good track record. Mordremoth essentially heralding himself using ley lines. The bloodstones causing widespread conflict even before they were opened by extradimensional entities. And even within the scion method itself, Aurene could hypothetically become unsuitable. Having the option to replace is important.

    Forced hibernation doesn't inevitably entail waiting on scions. No need to replace Elder Dragons that will never rise again, and even if they might rise again, they wouldn't need to in this game because the threat is gone.

    Kicking the can to another game is still kicking the can.

    Reduction of magic was never done properly before, because the Bloodstone was created near the end of the last dragonrise cycle - the Elder Dragons seeped too much magic into the world, and a new Bloodstone wasn't created because the Seers were effectively wiped out. And reduction of minions was done properly, but they missed the important ones (Drakkar, Great Destroyer) who created new ones once magic rose again.

    Mordremoth effectively heralded himself. There will always be some story contrivance causing possible safety measures to fail. Like how Omadd's machine is destroyed. It can work in reverse too with Aurene becoming despotic and needing replacement.

    But this time there's no need for a Bloodstone, because there's an allied Elder Dragon. Presuming that Aurene can share the burden well enough, she could reduce magic in the world to the point of forcing the other Elder Dragons to hibernate, and keep them in hibernation.

    I don't see that ever happening. The dragonrise exists because Elder Dragons, even with ravenous hunger and widespread corruption, do not reduce magic enough to kittenblock the rest. Unless she brands the entire planet she is still 1v3. Perhaps 1.25 or less with the Pale Tree. Even when we advance to the level of creating bloodstones we are still far behind.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    My theory is that the cleansing of the cave of seeds was a test run before the Forgotten went to cleanse a dragon champion. It would make sense to ensure that dragon minions could be cleansed, before even attempting to cleanse a dragon champion let alone scion. They likely chose Glint over other Elder Dragon scions (if there are any), because she was able to be lured to a proper location (as the cleansing ritual is geographically bound).

    Given how disasterous the Sylvari were for Mordremoth its possible they were more than a test. Were the forgotten aware of his weakness?

    The fact the Pale Tree was connected to the Dream seems more like a fluke than intention. After all, Malyck is not connected to the Dream, whihc implies his tree wouldn't be, and the Pale Tree was planted by Ronan barging in and stealing the seed. We don't know what happened to the "plant monsters" guarding the the cave, or why another seed was planted. But I think it's safe to say Ronan's actions were unintended, and as such, so were the sylvari that we know of.

    It was a fluke that worked in our favor, but all evidence suggests to me it was a fluke more than something planned 3,000+ years ago. Just like Balthazar's fall from grace, and thus Vlast's death, were unplanned for events, resulting in Aurene being the one to replace Kralkatorrik instead of Glint or Vlast.

    Kicking the can to another game is still kicking the can.

    If there were another game. My point is that you have a tied up plot thread that could be reopened, versus leaving a plot thread completely opened.

    You shouldn't ever leave a game with an open plot thread unless that open thread is intentionally seeding the way to the new game. Which "how to train your dragon" isn't a good plot thread to seed into a new game for the style of game Guild Wars is.

    Mordremoth effectively heralded himself. There will always be some story contrivance causing possible safety measures to fail. Like how Omadd's machine is destroyed. It can work in reverse too with Aurene becoming despotic and needing replacement.

    Mordremoth was able to rise the way he did because there was still a high concentration of magic in the world. Primordus was the same. Jormag's return is the same.

    And those "story contrivances" only exist if the writers want to bring the enemy threat back or not finished in that way.

    I don't see that ever happening. The dragonrise exists because Elder Dragons, even with ravenous hunger and widespread corruption, do not reduce magic enough to kittenblock the rest. Unless she brands the entire planet she is still 1v3. Perhaps 1.25 or less with the Pale Tree. Even when we advance to the level of creating bloodstones we are still far behind.

    The dragonrises occur because while the Elder Dragons sleep, they're releasing the magic they consumed back into the world. They cannot maintain their magical quantities while asleep. And they cannot rise without first gathering magic.

    But if the magic is never increased because Aurene's consuming it as they exude it, then they cannot rise again.

    It's highly hypothetical, sure, but if the writers want to go that direction, they could and it'd be logical with established lore to it. And it would still be closing off plot threads, unlike "waiting for scions to be raised so they can take out Elder Dragons a thousand years later" because unlike that scenario, there is no "deal with the Elder Dragons a thousand years later".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    My theory is that the cleansing of the cave of seeds was a test run before the Forgotten went to cleanse a dragon champion. It would make sense to ensure that dragon minions could be cleansed, before even attempting to cleanse a dragon champion let alone scion. They likely chose Glint over other Elder Dragon scions (if there are any), because she was able to be lured to a proper location (as the cleansing ritual is geographically bound).

    Given how disasterous the Sylvari were for Mordremoth its possible they were more than a test. Were the forgotten aware of his weakness?

    The fact the Pale Tree was connected to the Dream seems more like a fluke than intention. After all, Malyck is not connected to the Dream, whihc implies his tree wouldn't be, and the Pale Tree was planted by Ronan barging in and stealing the seed. We don't know what happened to the "plant monsters" guarding the the cave, or why another seed was planted. But I think it's safe to say Ronan's actions were unintended, and as such, so were the sylvari that we know of.

    It was a fluke that worked in our favor, but all evidence suggests to me it was a fluke more than something planned 3,000+ years ago. Just like Balthazar's fall from grace, and thus Vlast's death, were unplanned for events, resulting in Aurene being the one to replace Kralkatorrik instead of Glint or Vlast.

    What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

    Kicking the can to another game is still kicking the can.

    If there were another game. My point is that you have a tied up plot thread that could be reopened, versus leaving a plot thread completely opened.

    You shouldn't ever leave a game with an open plot thread unless that open thread is intentionally seeding the way to the new game. Which "how to train your dragon" isn't a good plot thread to seed into a new game for the style of game Guild Wars is.

    [SNIP]

    It's highly hypothetical, sure, but if the writers want to go that direction, they could and it'd be logical with established lore to it. And it would still be closing off plot threads, unlike "waiting for scions to be raised so they can take out Elder Dragons a thousand years later" because unlike that scenario, there is no "deal with the Elder Dragons a thousand years later".

    Forced hibernation is an open plot thread. The question will always be what if that fails. Slumbering dragons is the opening to too many stories, including this one, for it to ever be a satisfying conclusion. They need to die or be permanently altered in a way no amount of magic will wake them. No amount of technically sufficient methods mean anything.

    Edit:
    Aurene's existence means Kralkatorrik isn't coming back. Her randomly betraying us is possible but way more unlikely than any contrived fence for the raptors on the island.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

    Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "3,000 years of memory" and has limited memories before being purified). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

    No, Tarir, Kesho, the Pale Tree, nor Vlast are that old. They're all only about 200-250 years old. But the plans for replacing the Elder Dragons began over 3,000 years ago.

    Forced hibernation is an open plot thread. The question will always be what if that fails.

    Not really. It's no more open than locking up a villain in prison after saving the day. It's a closed plot, even if it leaves the potential for a sequel. But the fact of the matter is that the plot is closed.

    The question of it if fails need never be addressed. It need never be brought up in the minds of the readers. Only those beyond the 4th wall and invested in the story continuing and wanting a sequel would think of it.

    And in a setting like Guild Wars, where the souls of the dead can return to wreck havok, there is no true means to close a plot thread. You say Kralkatorrik can't return because Aurene replaced him? kitten. His soul can still return to cause mayhem. So can Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's. Will they? No. Because they're closed threads, and retreading old stories is boring and no one wants that. Which is also why we will not be having more "how to train your Elder Dragon" rerun.

    If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

    And because Aurene birthing new scions is just too kitten convenient (and potentially controversial given the whole "three and pregnant" situation), these scions is 99.9% likely to come from other sources.

    Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    Edit: Nevermind, I think I remembered wrong. :lol:

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I think Anet really need to flesh out the lore on this for clarity sake.
    If the Pale Tree seeds are indeed the same then wouldn't that make these Ancient trees a sentient species capable of spawning their own race as well?

    No. The Pale Tree is a purified Blighting Tree. By corrupting these trees into blighting trees, they become dragon champions capable of spawning minions; by becoming purified, they remain capable of spawning minions but are no longer enslaved to Mordremoth's will.

    Stonewood/Ancient Trees->[Corrupted by Mordremoth]->Blighting Trees->[Purified by unknown, likely Forgotten, means]->Pale Trees

    Yes but Pale Tree was never corrupted, she was discovered as a seed and raised free from Mordremoths corruption.
    If Blighting trees are purified or at least severed from Mordremoths control what becomes of a prevoiusly non sentient being now being one with the ability to create it's own minions?
    Pale Tree had Ventari's teachings to provide her with a sense of morals.. but purified blighting trees in their entire existence as sentient beings have only ever known slavery under their master.
    It is very unlikely any remaining blighting trees would be anything like the Pale Tree, if anything they'd be more like their master.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I have not seen this model, is it the same one used in the cutscene or was it added in with the recent patch for her little flyby moment?
    I'm not sure I would trust any mined models atm until we have a solid in game one to compare it too.

    It has the same silhouette as the cinematic but is different, more fleshed out. Here is that_shaman's imgur gallery. This is a recently added model, but it seems to still be a WIP as some parts aren't so solidly detailed. Still, since it has the same silhouette as her S4 finale, and the skin is the same as her corruption, it's 100% Aurene.

    That's pretty cool, I'd be happy with that model.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Primordus is the real dragon of interest when it comes to size..
    Anet really went the full mile when they put his head in the game and give us a taste of how massive he is.
    Until that point I had convinced myself that Kralkatorrik was likely going to be the biggest of them since we'd seen Primordus in Gw1 and we'd also seen Kralkatorrik who was a litteral mountain range in that game.
    Kralkatorrik definitely came across as the most massive in Gw1 but Gw2 flipped that in LWS3 and give Primoruds a serious upgrade.
    Definitely made me excited to see what his whole body is going to look like.
    I only hope that the design change didn't sacrifice any prominent features of his art and original design.. namely his wings.
    It would be really disappointing if he'd been changed into more of a serpent or wurm like creature.
    I very much want to see him erupt from the earth at some point and fly through the sky spewing volcanic hellfire down on everything below.

    I still hold the view that Primordus' size upgrade makes no sense. The size would now imply that Primordus' movements would be collapsing Central Tyria by traveling across it, even if it was twice the depth of the Titan's Throat volcano.

    And the design into a more generic crocodilian face is meh. Especially since the reason they gave for their redesign was "we never said that was Primordus in GW1". So now the rather cool, unique model (no wings, no forearms, just four tendrils, and four massive dorsal fins on its back, indicating that Primordus' body is that of a swimming reptile rather than flying) is seemingly being regulated to as a champion.

    Maybe what we saw in Gw1 was Primordus hood ornament.. xD

    It really doesn't make much sense does it that he's so big now unless we're overlooking something like the body that we've seen so far isn't actually his body but rather a construct or shell that he's created around his body to act on his behalf and protect him.
    I just pulled that idea out of nowhere but thinking about it... I kinda like it :D specially since unlike most other dragons, Primordus doesn't corrupt his minions, he creates them from fire and rock, in theory it wouldn't be to farfetche'd to think him capable of creating a collosal living shell like that.
    Would certainly be a surprise if we defeat this big crocodile like "Primordus" and then the real, smaller one erupts from it and flies away somewhere.

    Anet might not have said "that is Primordus" in Gw1 but it certainly does say that in the Guidlwars 1 wiki.
    "Thought to be a statue by the Asura,[1] the giant stone monument in the Depths of Tyria is in fact the dormant Elder Fire Dragon named Primordus."

    I'll personally be very dissapointed if Primordus doesn't match up with that Gw1 design, even if that means he would technically be one of the smaller elder dragons.
    Much like how disappointed i'll be if Drakkar doesn't match with his Gw1 design either.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Yes but Pale Tree was never corrupted, she was discovered as a seed and raised free from Mordremoths corruption.
    If Blighting trees are purified or at least severed from Mordremoths control what becomes of a prevoiusly non sentient being now being one with the ability to create it's own minions?

    Of course the Pale Tree was once corrupted. It was corrupted as a seed. And purified as a seed. If the Pale Tree had never once been corrupted in its entire lifespan, then sylvari would not be "good mordrem", they would not "belong to the dragon", Mordremoth would not be "their home".

    The entire premise of Heart of Thorns is that sylvari and the Pale Tree (and Malyck's Tree) are purified mordrem.

    Pale Tree had Ventari's teachings to provide her with a sense of morals.. but purified blighting trees in their entire existence as sentient beings have only ever known slavery under their master.
    It is very unlikely any remaining blighting trees would be anything like the Pale Tree, if anything they'd be more like their master.

    Right. It was the fact that the Pale Tree was purified that she could even deny Mordremoth, and therefore accept Ventari's Teachings. The Blighting Trees in HoT - those that weren't town down in the campaign (I believe every one was in their event chains) - could in theory be brought down the line of good, just as Glint was, but it'd take time and effort, and they'd only be able to because, as we see with the Unchained Risen in Siren's Landing, once the Elder Dragon dies so does their influence over the minions' free will.

    Anet might not have said "that is Primordus" in Gw1 but it certainly does say that in the Guidlwars 1 wiki.
    "Thought to be a statue by the Asura,[1] the giant stone monument in the Depths of Tyria is in fact the dormant Elder Fire Dragon named Primordus."

    I'll personally be very dissapointed if Primordus doesn't match up with that Gw1 design, even if that means he would technically be one of the smaller elder dragons.
    Much like how disappointed i'll be if Drakkar doesn't match with his Gw1 design either.

    In several interviews, Jeff Grubb, Ree Soesbee, and Scott McGough had all said at one point or another some variation of "that statue was Primordus". But in game dialogue, the closest we got was "Primordus slept in the chamber next to the Central Transfer Chamber and was used to power the asura gate network." Which is pretty much the same kitten thing but apparently is enough wiggle room for new GW2 devs to redesign it.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

    How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

    When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

    Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

    Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

    Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

    Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

    Don't hide behind children. Aurene is not a butterfly, she is a self aware entity with agency. Despite your efforts she can not be reduced to her reproductive plumbing. If Aurene must save the world by having children we should deal with the implications beyond her physical ability to have children. If we can't deal with the implications, we shouldn't use motherhood as a deus ex.

    You are genuinely confusing. If we can't bring Aurene's hypothetical eggs out of stasis, why have her lay them?

    Aurene is not a human. She is a self aware entity that also chose to eat Joko and brand Caithe. What is one more taboo? She is not guaranteed to share any of your values, even if you personally find them to be important.

    You cannot say to not reduce her to her plumbing and in the next breath say motherhood must be protected from dues ex. Either her parts are such a fraction of her identity that it is of no consequence. Or you are treating motherhood to a degree that demeans people who chose to end the process, or cannot begin in the first place. I don't see you championing the Pale Tree to do more than sit around and make children. Maybe start there first. Or don't because neither she, nor Glint, nor eventually Aurene are mothers any more than they are fathers.

    Edit: all I'm saying is approach this from the standpoint people have different religious beliefs in game and out.

    If you are willing to approach this from different standpoints, you must be willing to approach the consequences of using motherhood as a way to save the world. Telling stories about motherhood isn't a problem but telling a story of compulsory motherhood is a problem. Don't you dare pretend a mother who is faced with choosing between the end of the world and having children isn't under duress. Every Tyrian would be demanding control of her body. The only way you can use moral relativism to solve the dilemma of compelling Aurene's motherhood is to make Aurene and Tyrians not care.

    Give us a story where Aurene's decision to become a mother is her's alone and her children don't have to be perfect.

    edit: You are claiming I am making motherhood inconsequential or too sacred. There is nothing in what I am saving that should lead a rational person to assume I am. It should be clear that I am trying to get you see motherhood as a broad spectrum of premises and if we need Aurene's children then we are circling the premise of compulsion in bright red ink.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't see how allowing other possible configurations for the All would be a significant retcon. Most of what would have to be retconned or be claimed as being a retcon, look like examples of the studio being vague. I don't see how the studio could offer anything big and new to the story or offer meaningful resolution without allowing for other configurations for the All where a more diverse population of Tyrians are involved.

    Putting the remaining Elder Dragons to sleep is just so....meh; our hero's journey ends with a nap. Sticking with the six sphere configuration leaves Tyria at the mercy of Six beings; our hero's journey brings us back to almost the same position we started from. Using Aurene as the Crytal Dragon God comes across as a trick to avoid the Kormir effect and leaves us at the mercy of just one being; our hero's journey ends with us enthralled to a new god. I would prefer a story where Tyria is freed from the tyranny of the six sphere configuration and the concept of deities. All hail the 42 sphere or distributed ledger configuration.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

    Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "3,000 years of memory" and has limited memories before being purified). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

    Doesn't that assume Glint was cleansed after the Pale Tree?

    Forced hibernation is an open plot thread. The question will always be what if that fails.

    Not really. It's no more open than locking up a villain in prison after saving the day. It's a closed plot, even if it leaves the potential for a sequel. But the fact of the matter is that the plot is closed.

    The question of it if fails need never be addressed. It need never be brought up in the minds of the readers. Only those beyond the 4th wall and invested in the story continuing and wanting a sequel would think of it.

    And in a setting like Guild Wars, where the souls of the dead can return to wreck havok, there is no true means to close a plot thread. You say Kralkatorrik can't return because Aurene replaced him? kitten. His soul can still return to cause mayhem. So can Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's. Will they? No. Because they're closed threads, and retreading old stories is boring and no one wants that. Which is also why we will not be having more "how to train your Elder Dragon" rerun.

    It is theoretically possible all of Nightfall was for not. But there was enough narrative detail to make it seem permanent. Ending this conflict with how this conflict began fails without the same amount of effort. Simple hibernation is not enough. You need to replace them, or purify them, or disable them.

    If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

    Yes. You drop you Dragon type egg off at the Pokemon Day Care (Tarir) and have people routinely check on it. And don't come back till its grown after you finished the elite four.

    Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

    I am wishing for Kuunavang to be more than a lesser dragon.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    Setting aside the question of Aurene's physical and emotional maturity, which is itself creepy, we still have her hero's journey. I do not want to watch Aurene's hero journey culminate in compelled motherhood. Making the primary female character's most important trait be her womb is trite and more than a little bro-ey.

    Geeze can you quit it with that nonsense? Using the word womb is crossing a line even for me. Go buy a pet gecko.

    Glint wasn't compelled to have children. Not was it her most defining trait. It's not like people stop existing when they have have children. That is broey

    How does the word womb cross the line? Would reproductive plumbing be easier for you to accept?

    When talking to children about butterflies you just say eggs. Saying womb would be wrong on several levels. That word is specifically for mammals. And you are not only implying more about the situation than egg laying entails, you are also using an informal word typically used with humans for a creature that, in the child's eyes, may be a day old.

    Actually Glint was compelled to have children. From her perspective the world needed her children and her perspective was accurate. Present day Tyria is in a crisis because the All has lost integrity and would be destroyed if another Elder dragon dies. If the only way to restore the All is with Aurene's children then for the survival of Tyria she is compelled to have children. What do we do if she is unwilling?

    Now THAT is creepy, how about we not bring the word unwilling into this conversation. At no point in this discussion have I ever said it is the only solution, that it would work five times or even one. The vast majority of glints eggs never hatched even though she theoretically laid them for the purpose of replacing Elder Dragons.

    Having a story revolve around motherhood isn't bad writing. It is exquisitely complex writing that frequently gets treated superficially. A story written by a committee that must justify the cost of every word can not do a hero's journey to motherhood justice.

    Then don't make it revolve around that? Have the Pale Tree ascend so she is more than a mother for an infertile race. And have Aurene lay eggs but we have no way to bring them out of stasis.

    Don't hide behind children. Aurene is not a butterfly, she is a self aware entity with agency. Despite your efforts she can not be reduced to her reproductive plumbing. If Aurene must save the world by having children we should deal with the implications beyond her physical ability to have children. If we can't deal with the implications, we shouldn't use motherhood as a deus ex.

    You are genuinely confusing. If we can't bring Aurene's hypothetical eggs out of stasis, why have her lay them?

    Aurene is not a human. She is a self aware entity that also chose to eat Joko and brand Caithe. What is one more taboo? She is not guaranteed to share any of your values, even if you personally find them to be important.

    You cannot say to not reduce her to her plumbing and in the next breath say motherhood must be protected from dues ex. Either her parts are such a fraction of her identity that it is of no consequence. Or you are treating motherhood to a degree that demeans people who chose to end the process, or cannot begin in the first place. I don't see you championing the Pale Tree to do more than sit around and make children. Maybe start there first. Or don't because neither she, nor Glint, nor eventually Aurene are mothers any more than they are fathers.

    Edit: all I'm saying is approach this from the standpoint people have different religious beliefs in game and out.

    If you are willing to approach this from different standpoints, you must be willing to approach the consequences of using motherhood as a way to save the world. Telling stories about motherhood isn't a problem but telling a story of compulsory motherhood is a problem. Don't you dare pretend a mother who is faced with choosing between the end of the world and having children isn't under duress. Every Tyrian would be demanding control of her body. The only way you can use moral relativism to solve the dilemma of compelling Aurene's motherhood is to make Aurene and Tyrians not care.

    Give us a story where Aurene's decision to become a mother is her's alone and her children don't have to be perfect.

    edit: You are claiming I am making motherhood inconsequential or too sacred. There is nothing in what I am saving that should lead a rational person to assume I am. It should be clear that I am trying to get you see motherhood as a broad spectrum of premises and if we need Aurene's children then we are circling the premise of compulsion in bright red ink.

    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodents used motherhood to eat.

    But she is beyond that definition. Her "mother" actually experienced motherhood, or fatherhood, or both, or neither. Aurene cannot be compelled into motherhood unless she applies that term, and all of its weights, to herself. She can feel pressure to have children. But what that means is up to her, and subsequently the writers, not us. Projecting humanoid feelings onto her only leads to more retching. And they have already used eating Joko, and Branding, to show she is not like us.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

    Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "3,000 years of memory" and has limited memories before being purified). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

    Doesn't that assume Glint was cleansed after the Pale Tree?

    In technicality, yes, the theory would be that the cave of seeds was purified and put into some form of stasis, then Glint was purified and hid the remaining races from the last ravages of the Elder Dragons.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It is theoretically possible all of Nightfall was for not. But there was enough narrative detail to make it seem permanent. Ending this conflict with how this conflict began fails without the same amount of effort. Simple hibernation is not enough. You need to replace them, or purify them, or disable them.

    Hibernation in this scenario is disabling them though.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

    Yes. You drop you Dragon type egg off at the Pokemon Day Care (Tarir) and have people routinely check on it. And don't come back till its grown after you finished the elite four.

    Shouldn't be Tarir since the entire purpose of Tarir was to be next to Mordremoth (presumably to replace Mordremoth on his death). But that's not really what I was disagreeing with and finding distasteful. It was "Aurene has children to save the world" because it's just too kitten convenient, and too kitten controversial. You got her age, you got "forced motherhood to save the world", and so forth. It just wouldn't sit well with too many members of the audience.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

    I am wishing for Kuunavang to be more than a lesser dragon.

    To me, it wouldn't make sense. She's not even close to elemental in appearance, unlike every other scion or dragon champion we've seen. If they didn't write lesser dragons as being incapable of becoming Elder Dragons, she could work - she's worked with mortals long enough and don't outright hate them; a worthy replacement that could go evil in the future for another game's plot. But with the whole "lesser dragons can't become Elder Dragons", and Kuunavang not having anything that really ties to anything Elder Dragon-like, it seems very unlikely.

    Unless the deep sea dragon is secretly some sort of Elder Star Dragon.

    Plus, the possibility of visiting Cantha in GW2 is still well beyond the horizon of visible plot directions.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    What does 3000 years mean? Were Tarir/Kesho werent built that long ago. The Pale Tree and Vlast definitely aren't that old.

    Glint was purified by the Forgotten roughly 3,000 years ago (Glint has "3,000 years of memory" and has limited memories before being purified). As far as we can tell, it's also roughly near the end of the previous dragonrise (approximately from 10,000 to 1,5000 BE). But most importantly, it marks the known earliest point of the Forgotten's plan to replace the Elder Dragons.

    Doesn't that assume Glint was cleansed after the Pale Tree?

    In technicality, yes, the theory would be that the cave of seeds was purified and put into some form of stasis, then Glint was purified and hid the remaining races from the last ravages of the Elder Dragons.

    Tarir is built like 50 years or less from when the Pale Tree's cave was discovered. From that chronology it seems like it was part of Plan A they didn't implement before disappearing.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It is theoretically possible all of Nightfall was for not. But there was enough narrative detail to make it seem permanent. Ending this conflict with how this conflict began fails without the same amount of effort. Simple hibernation is not enough. You need to replace them, or purify them, or disable them.

    Hibernation in this scenario is disabling them though.

    I am trying to come up with a PC version of a word and failing. So I'll just say like methods involving males becoming infertile, I mean disabling them in a way they cannot recover from. In some way that no amount of magic would ever wake them. It needs to be something as harsh as a God being murdered and absorbed or I'm not taking it seriously. Especially when they started the conflict with them leaving slumber.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    If we have to raise more scions, I have a 95% confidence level that it will be a plot device used to put some members of Dragon's Watch on the bus and off-screen for a while, as ArenaNet has been doing for every storyline installment since Season 3 began, and when we see the scion and their chosen champion from Dragon's Watch, they'll be Vlast sized instead of an egg or infant.

    Yes. You drop you Dragon type egg off at the Pokemon Day Care (Tarir) and have people routinely check on it. And don't come back till its grown after you finished the elite four.

    Shouldn't be Tarir since the entire purpose of Tarir was to be next to Mordremoth (presumably to replace Mordremoth on his death). But that's not really what I was disagreeing with and finding distasteful. It was "Aurene has children to save the world" because it's just too kitten convenient, and too kitten controversial. You got her age, you got "forced motherhood to save the world", and so forth. It just wouldn't sit well with too many members of the audience.

    I am aware that people project onto Aurene. And perhaps that is what they want. But I could see it going the other way. They felt comfortable telling us about Sylvari getting it on. If you dehumanize Aurene further than her eating humanoids, it could work.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Personally, I'm hoping for a "purifying a dragon champion", perhaps even Drakkar, rather than raising a scion from scratch.

    I am wishing for Kuunavang to be more than a lesser dragon.

    To me, it wouldn't make sense. She's not even close to elemental in appearance, unlike every other scion or dragon champion we've seen. If they didn't write lesser dragons as being incapable of becoming Elder Dragons, she could work - she's worked with mortals long enough and don't outright hate them; a worthy replacement that could go evil in the future for another game's plot. But with the whole "lesser dragons can't become Elder Dragons", and Kuunavang not having anything that really ties to anything Elder Dragon-like, it seems very unlikely.

    Unless the deep sea dragon is secretly some sort of Elder Star Dragon.

    Plus, the possibility of visiting Cantha in GW2 is still well beyond the horizon of visible plot directions.

    Where is Kuunavang confirmed to be lesser again? And perhaps they meant not an Elder Dragon since "high" isn't official and a spoiler.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    ArenaNet already said that "lesser dragons" cannot become Elder Dragons. Though this only included wyverns, hydras, drakes, and skyscales, the chances are high that Canthan dragons are included since they're very wyvern and/or drake-like. Saltspray Dragons are basically serpentine wyverns.

    This likely extends to whatever dragon race the Bone Dragons come from, or any other foreign "dragon".

    I think the difference between "lesser" and "higher" dragons is sentience?
    The others you mention are indeed more akin to beasts and animals but Saltspray Dragons are both intelligent and sentient. Atleast Kuunavang is/was.
    Personally I don't believe we're ever going back to Cantha but I don't think this is the reason not to.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

    why not?

    humans have eaten mummies not too long ago. . . and Joko was basically a walking mummy.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

    I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

    Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

    I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

    Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

    I fail to see how out of all the meanings of the word "for" I could have been responding to, and the context of this entire discussion, you interpreted that was my point. As if I was somehow unaware the game is not being purchased by rodents.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

    I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

    Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

    I fail to see how out of all the meanings of the word "for" I could have been responding to, and the context of this entire discussion, you interpreted that was my point. As if I was somehow unaware the game is not being purchased by rodents.

    Ironically enough, you never used the word "for" in the posts I've responded to in this chain.

    And ironically enough, you never got the real point of my comment either. Your entire argument against @Psientist.6437 has been that the narrative is not about humans but dragons and therefore human interpretation is moot. But the narrative is written by, and written for, humans. And it will be humans interpreting the narrative.

    My point was that regardless of what the species narrative centralizes on, it will be humans who write it and who experience the narrative, and it will therefore be a narrative for humans and as such, the interpretations and the meanings will be viewed with human viewpoints in mind. The narrative would be "forced motherhood to save the world" even if it's not human motherhood we're dealing with because it's a narrative written by humans, for humans.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even within the confines of chromosomes some animals experience motherhood differently than humans. One of my roommates rodent's used motherhood to eat.

    Glint, and possibly Aurene will experience motherhood and fatherhood and neither. Using human morality is not a given.

    The narrative isn't being written for rodents nor dragons, but for humans.

    Then she shouldn't have eaten Joko.

    I fail to see how "dragon eats mummy" is a narrative written for non-humans, since the entire purpose at first was to intentionally try to gross out the audience / remind players that Aurene is "not a pet".

    Only later to be used as a resurrection excuse after they decided to kill her and needed to think up a way to bring her back while writing Episode 6...

    I fail to see how out of all the meanings of the word "for" I could have been responding to, and the context of this entire discussion, you interpreted that was my point. As if I was somehow unaware the game is not being purchased by rodents.


    Ironically enough, you never used the word "for" in the posts I've responded to in this chain.

    Quoting is a form of usage. Stop.

    And ironically enough, you never got the real point of my comment either. Your entire argument against @Psientist.6437 has been that the narrative is not about humans but dragons and therefore human interpretation is moot. But the narrative is written by, and written for, humans. And it will be humans interpreting the narrative.

    My point was that regardless of what the species narrative centralizes on, it will be humans who write it and who experience the narrative, and it will therefore be a narrative for humans and as such, the interpretations and the meanings will be viewed with human viewpoints in mind. The narrative would be "forced motherhood to save the world" even if it's not human motherhood we're dealing with because it's a narrative written by humans, for humans.

    There are human biologists, lawyers, pro-life advocates, adults and children. The entirety of human interpretation is not moot. Rather it is variable. Writers who understand that can attempt to control the narrative. It would be "forced motherhood to save the world" for you. Because you want to think that way before anything is even written.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    In the event there are no more scions, not from Aurene, nor hidden Glint eggs, nor Kuunavang, nor Skyscale, is the world doomed?
    At best the Pale Tree replaces Mordremoth.

    No, it would just mean we cannot kill the remaining Elder Dragons and must find a way to put them into a more permanent hibernation instead.

    Unless, of course, ArenaNet decides to retcon the lore they established in Season 3 and Path of Fire and proclaim Aurene as the One True Elder Dragon who replaces them all.

    Which would be a bad retcon, imo.

    Isn't that the same as waiting for scions? You just kick the can for this topic past the life span of all but perhaps the Syvlari PC.

    I agree one dragon alone is a bad idea.

    The whole legacy which seems to be what our living story seems to be about with glints legacy is finding entities that can contain the magic and share it rather than hoard it is what guides the story. So I don't believe that aurene would be the only one elder dragon but our PC's story will be finding those who can help and share it. I figure we one day will go to cantha for one of these entities being that one of the things we see in canthan culture from the original game is that there is worshiping or reverence to dragons in a way that is the opposite of how beings would act toward those like the elder dragons that corrupt and consume/destroy. One of my theories on the whole Steve or Bubbles thing is that the cantha backstory is that the canthans are expelling all non-humans which to me that makes me believe they are trying to wipe out anything that isn't human so that may be the reason why an elder dragon may be saving them by helping them get to the other side of the ocean and possibly one of the entities aurene will end up sharing magic with. So then by the time we have a bubbles saga it wouldn't be a war against bubbles but rather a war against the people trying to kill bubbles. Which would be different from having to deal with dragon minions and dragon corruption it would be the opposite of that changing the course of content and gameplay where instead of it being against you that in some cases it would be something you are using or something that is assisting you.

    Which content wise for revs anyways it would be funny if there was an elite spec that when you use a new elite that it removes devastation from your specs and replaces it as your elite as a shiro elite spec but at the same time gives a non-elite spec and non-elite legend because of that which could also be adapted to the other classes of something that could be completely balanced from the start. Anyways that my view point on aurene, glints legacy, and the whole magic issue. So not all elder dragons have to be like the others we've seen before aurene she could very well help change the existing ones and possibly an existing one not being as bad as people may have feared.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Klypto.1703

    I don't think Bubbles was saving anyone. The Elder Dragon have notoriously poor self control. Even when, as we found out with Kralkatorrik, they are having to "kill what they love."

    But assuming we get back to Cantha, and the writers feel comfortable portraying any of its people in a bad light, I could see us having to stop them from killing Bubbles. And while a core spec may not be promoted to an elite spec, Shiro definitely would have things to say to Revenants.

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