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Let's Talk About PvP Balance

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  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said :
    Mirage Cloak should not work if a normal dodge would not work, unless they take EM. EM does not need 6 seconds of exhaustion, maybe 3 seconds of when dodging while knocked down, stunned, or any cc that would not allow dodges, but not for cc that would allow dodges. (still breaks stun), but otherwise don't change how cloak works, such as using while performing other actions.

    Again, did you see a core mesmer build without stealth who can perform ? Because a mirage without his current mirage cloak is basically that.
    Even with PU on core, we can see on shadow vid that he got catch with random CC/aoe.
    I mean I can listen to all suggestion but when you take a step back, it will just make a class unplayable.

    @Aza.2105 said :
    Mirage is too much, excessive screen clutter, countless clones, evades, dodge, blocks and over all mitigation is too persistent. Its also one of the only classes were the player has to mouse target because cycling through all the clones is a nightmare.

    Ok for visual clutter even if it's relative view.
    It has low evades uptime compared to other meta class considering vigor uptime, endurance regeneration and evade on weapon, stop with this false information please.
    All pro player select target by mouse because they have to be able to rupt key skill on other target very fast : for example you focus a necro and you want to rupt a FB signet.

    @sinject.4607 said :
    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

    Give me stat arguments, damage data and CD, not subjective view then we can start a discussion.
    Variety of player = player who want to play the game with a coffee in one hand like always and who never play mesmer which didn't make their personnal feeling more impactfull than real data.

  • Engineer Incendiary Powder trait - lower cd, duration and make it cd per target (like necro Demonic Lore). This small change will help condi engineer so much!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @sinject.4607 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:
    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    Sadly this is not what streams show.
    Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.
    I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.
    About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.
    It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

    So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

    Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

    I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

    As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

  • Greyjoy.5167Greyjoy.5167 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Engi needs an update to his severely outdated traits and skills.
    Skills:

    • Turrets are bad - healing is the only good one (seems staple skill of Engi to me).
    • Kits are outdated - Med Kit is ok. Flamethrower and Elixir has few fine abilities - minor tweaks would do the job. Mortar, Toolkit, Bomb and Granade kits are simply outdated. Feels bad to use these. Complete rework would be nice (maybe little less than complete rework for the Mortar).
    • Throw mine, Slick shoes, Utility Goggles, Elixir R, Supply Crate(Elite) - I doubt a single person uses any of these in PvP and is not trying to loose on purpose.
    • Pistol skills - Feels weak and confusing to use. Is it close range? Is it long range? Simply feels outdated.

    Trait lines:

    • I won't get into details. Every Core trait feels clunky and outdated. Please rework it the way you feel, but make it compliant. Make it up to date.

    Scrapper:

    • Bruiser'ish spec, but feels rather squishy. Bulwark Gyro is a must-have to be able to survive in PvP.
    • I'm not a fan of Impact Savant at all. Maybe make it pickable trait rather than built-in. It lacks of synergy with Conditions makes whole Scrapper line Power-attached. Also Hammer is the only viable weapon.
    • Lots of superspeed, but for what? I feel like there is not enough synergy with Superspeed to give Scrapper amout it gets.
    • Functional Gyro dies really often. Feels weird to use it, but I see it as cool mechanic personally.
    • Whole traitline seems lackluster to me - there is nothing staple, nothing really cool there.
    • Conditions kills Scrapper whatever he does. Impossible to get enough cleanse and still be revelant in other aspects.

    Holosmith:
    Overall on the strong side as the only Engi build.
    Nerf should happen, but it should not influence Core Engi at all (in its current state).
    Best options to nerf:

    • Heat Therapy
    • Prism Light Beam (so it reveals user from stealth when used)
    • Holo Leap (slight cd increase)
  • My thoughts.

    Mesmer infinite horizon is crazy. I would remove ambush attacks from clones. While it’s very cool as a trait it’s just too kitten strong and allows ridiculous burst and condi application. Mirror cloak on clones without allowing ambush attacks still keeps them alive so is still useful.

    Rampage as a skill is just too much. Remove the stability from it which means builds need to provide stab from other sources. Means you can control the warrior/engineer with cc more easily to avoid their attack. Also remove the daze from the 1.

    Make changes to theif short bow 5. It is just too much mobility and also limits build diversity as that one skill makes shortbow just too good as a weapon swap to ignore.

    Change toss elixir S to something other than stealth. Holosmith just should not have such easy access to group stealth. Also reduce the damage on the holoforge 1 chain in pvp. Holo has too much damage without any investment in damage traits or utilities.

    Reduce burn base damage and scaling in pvp as it’s just too easy to get many burn stacks for some builds creating very high ticks unless you cleanse fast.

    Cap might stacks overall to 10 in pvp. This would bring down overall burst from many builds.

  • Kalan.9705Kalan.9705 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    I really think this is the most important general point - fundamentally different modes, have different combat considerations and require separate autonomous balance teams. PvP is not the same as WvW - anyone who thinks 1 team should be doing both competitive modes has not understood the game well enough to be making balance decisions.

    The better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless Anet admits WvW and PvP combat (also PvE as Anet have finally admitted after like 7 years in) are fundamentally different, and therefore Anet MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilise autonomy and split states).

    Using 1 team to balance both PvP and WvW together only gives 3 bad outcomes:
    1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
    2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
    3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I look at this sad ..
    Time to separate "community’s passion on balance" and for my opinion is trolling notes "prease nerf holo/..".
    I always try play only wiht top meta overpowered builds/class. So I read "please nerf X with wepon Y", take it, use, setup, but no some great profit. Best class WAS mesmer, but it is nerfed long time ago .. (
    Currently now we not have some overpowered classes.

    To find some op or nerfed class more better use some pattern like "class/build played count * win rate * some magic". And use this pattern only for some input, but not as direct suggestion.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalan.9705 said:
    I really think this is the most important general point - fundamentally different modes, have different combat considerations and require separate autonomous balance teams. PvP is not the same as WvW - anyone who thinks 1 team should be doing both competitive modes has not understood the game well enough to be making balance decisions.

    The better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless Anet admits WvW and PvP combat (also PvE as Anet have finally admitted after like 7 years in) are fundamentally different, and therefore Anet MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilise autonomy and split states).

    Using 1 team to balance both PvP and WvW together only gives 3 bad outcomes:
    1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
    2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
    3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.

    To be honest i say keep pvp and wvw together till they do the culling over everyone after all the nerfs are in place then decide if wvw and pvp need to also be split apart. It makes the most since as they can bring both game modes down (which needs to happen no matter how you spin it) at the same time before adjusting them separately

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:
    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    Sadly this is not what streams show.
    Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.
    I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.
    About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.
    It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

    So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

    Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

    I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

    As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

    You missed his entire point really. Its not a matter of defending it or anyone defending a class.

    Basically in a nutshell he said if a class or elite spec, trait, skill, feature of the class is considered good right now then its stronger than they want it to be so yes expect mirage/mesmer nerfs, expect theif nerfs, expect soul beast/ranger nerfs, expect reaper nerfs, expect weaver/ele nerfs, expect firebrand/guardian nerfs, expect holo nerfs, Rev? Expect nerfs. As he put the general direction is down for just about everyone if you are arguing for something that someone thinks is too strong expect it to get culled down to a more respectable level. Even I dont want to lose my quickness on reaper (feels clunky slow without it) but i know if these patches get done right there is no way thats going to remain on the RO trait. (i hope they just speed up the base reaper attacks but not to quickness levels)

    Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.

    This is not about who should be nerfed its about how much certain aspects that exist in the game today should be nerfed considering condi application is a big target on their list its safe to say mirage will see quite a few changes especially to the commonly used weapons, scepter/ staff. We will also see 1 shot builds likely become lesser bursting builds with much more risk ideally rev, holo, guardian etc are probably going to lose alot of up front burst damage so they wont be 1 shotting people even more so if someone invest in toughness which is currently almost invalid in the game due to how much dps can come out of a single person let alone a team of 5.

    The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later. Dont worry though Holo is in the same boat with you along with several other things like condi thief and warriors who use rampage etc.

    Overall im going to be glad to see everyone get dropped down. Pretty much think of what ever spec is not used very much due to how under powered it is... core necro, core rev, core engi, etc. Now think about everything being brought back down to that standard possibly pre HoT. That would be good for the game right now a major rework of everything has been long tuned. Im personally sick and tired of builds doing more than the player and the player being ego boosted because they know they are running a crazy build with limited counters. Lets reset, refresh, and restart how metas are built for pvp. This is a chance to actually make the game blanced and fun again instead of going "ughh..." when you see a certain thing or team comp. Its also a good chance to make professions, and other options that are not effective or struggling to be effective viable again.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    you need start with the basics mechanics then you start nerfing every class:

    Evade frames:

    Evade on hit is very toxic and unskillful mechanic, evading while hitting should be removed or give it only for some specific very low dmg skills.
    if you want a skillful game you need to give evade only for players that know when to use it not spam it forever, players need to know when to dodge/block and not random spam it.

    Example of toxic unskillful evades: death bloosom (thief), whirlwind attack ( warrior)
    Example of skillful evades: twiste of fate (weaver), quickshot(ranger), phase retreat(mesmer)

    Blocks are an evade mechanic but they are skillful

    Stability:

    Stability boons are good but should give only one stack per skill slot, some skills give like 5-10 stacks of it, so they become unstoppable and the classes that has it are the ones with one shot potential so you can't stop them a.k.a holos/warriors/rangers
    remove stability stacking from some skills buff the time up, give like protection/stability then a stun breaker, not 5 stacks of stability, stack of stability should be only for using more than one skill or receiving from another character.

    CC:
    knock downs/stuns need to have a lower duration, some knock downs can get you on the ground for 3 whole seconds, that's enough to some classes kill you before you can even react, even if you are supposed to have a stunbreaker you should not die because you get hit by it.

    Damage on classes that has infinite cc:

    A class that has alot of cc should not be allowed to have high damage
    Damage need to be scaled down on some power classes, all you need to do is lower the coeficient from power, no matter how much of toughness you have you going to be "one shotted " after an stunlock.

    Might is not the problem, Damage of some power classes are the big problem, they scale too well with power so when they get Might they start one shoting people, the problem is the power scaling of some skills, some skills can scale too high with power and on top of that they can stun lock you to death, A.k.a Holos/warriors.

    holos and warriors can stunlock you and on top of that you going to die in 2s because of their damage potential, unless you have a stunbreaker and one teleport skill.
    some skills need their coeficient from power tunned down, 50 power can turn into 500 damage on your head.
    just give skills lower coeficient from power like ranger shortbow has, not so lower though.
    **

    Balance stats:

    stats are not very balanced, a perfect balance should be when a player pick only toughness and the other pick only power and when they fight each other they should die at same time, then the player skill factor will influence here, when a player know how to dodge, when to block, when to cc
    toughness now is useful but not as useful as power, like i said before no matter how much toughness you have you going to die in 2 hits because power scale is too high on some weapons.
    how to fix toughness? just give toughness bonus more stats, if the amulet give 1200 toughness change it 2000~2400...so you can block the powercreep

    also, all classes need to be able to have a fair fight vs any other class, classes need to change only the playstyle

    Boons need to be class specific:
    unless it's a support class that should have all kind of boons sharing

    like alacracy is only for chrono/rev/ren

    quickness should be only for chrono and fb/thiefs/rangers
    protection should be only for warriors/guardians/scrappers
    might should be only for elemental/warriors/reapers

    Condi clear need to be removed from dodge rolls
    warriors/holos dodge rolls, yeah this break condi classes just because some classes can just dodge roll and negate all the damage

    Condi is not a problem!!

    condi is not a problem the problem is how some classes stack it.

    Thief/dd can stack all kind of condi just for dodging or teleporting to you then running away and you are dead, you can't react and can't attack back, poison from thiefs need to do way less damage also they need to stack less condi type so you can clean better, just give a trait for their poison -50% less healing and lower their damage from poison by half.

    mirage can use ambush from clones it's like 3 players attacking you, just remove ambush from clones.

    Now you can start nerfing/buffing some classes

  • JediSange.1645JediSange.1645 Member
    edited October 24, 2019

    Preface and problem statement

    I have played GW2 since beta and got hooked by your original game design philosophies. For years I was looking for MMO combat that didn't suck, and GW2 looked like it was going to deliver on it. I hyped up my guild, my friends -- anyone who would listen. GW2 was going to change MMOs. And you did. Mostly.

    From my perspective, I don't think the competitive state of GW2 (or lack there of) can be solved with numbers alone. I'm not going to assert to you that I'm a game designer or know better. While yes I try to think critically through problems and have a lot of experience in competitive games -- fighting games, MOBAs, MMOs, etc. -- I am no where near an "expert". My biggest gripe with this is the design pillars set out early on were never fully realized. Even from the early days of GW2, you always had to watch your UI quite a bit. Condi builds are the biggest offender of this, IMO. Conditions have always had a way to be bursty, but it has only ramped up over the years. Beyond that, power builds saw stealth nerfs from things getting stun breaks on every skill known to mankind.

    Pre-HOT you could run a stun build on Warrior and reliably bait both dodge rolls, maybe the one stun break they had, and go to town with Bull Charge + Hammer into something like Axe 5. As the game continues to chug along skills continue to get more powerful, more overloaded, and ultimately more polarizing. A lot of the recent balance changes are good, but that isn't addressing the cause of it. I made a really detailed post on reddit (sorry if I shouldn't link this here) some time ago about it. The key points I tried to make:

    • Lots of visual noise and unclear mechanics (e.g. dying from conditions sucks, multiple fields down and use a finisher)
    • Lack of mechanical counter play vs build counter play (e.g. you have to run condi removal)
    • Conditions are just numbers, not control (think WildStar where a lot of conditions affect how you control your character, not just DOTs

    Conditions as a first-class citizen for damage are a plague upon competitive play. The idea of rotting someone down is fine, but you should have to play a keep away game, rot them down, and "control" the situation -- not just hit a condition burst and win against newer players because they either: don't know what to look for, or don't run the correct build to solve it. This is not to assert that the new player in this case needing to learn something is bad. It's that they will look at their death recap and see "40k+ damage from bleeding, 20k+ from poison" etc and be left wondering "what the heck?" It's a really bad new player experience and something I've seen so many people leave the game over.

    Me pretending I'm a game designer

    In my ideal world, we make systemic changes and not just number tweaks or skill reworks -- the current way GW2 thinks about itself is unsustainable. Originally it was said that the player should "watch their screen more than their UI" and that is definitely not the reality today. Mind you, I am not claiming to have all the answers, but I do believe a revamp of condis and visual clarity would go a long way. This is my "wish list" if I had one:

    • Remove all passive condi procs in the game, specifically from traits
    • Remove traits that remove Burning/Chilled on dodge roll -- make that base line
    • Take away so many passive stun break or "every 30sec absorb one stun" things in the game -- you want action combat, not "passive procs once every 30sec" combat
    • Finishers used in multiple fields should trigger every field

    The big three conditions that I see as problematic:

    • Burning -- Increase damage per tick. Reduce number of skills that apply and make them highly visual (think Guardian Torch). Dodging removes ALL STACKS of burning (Mechanical counter play, forcing dodge rolls, etc).
    • Confusion -- This skill is great except for the lack of mechanical counter play. I would like every class to be able to use their first weapon ability without suffering damage, so that way you can still auto attack. Again, mechanical outplay -- You see purple on your character and it limits what you can do but doesn't force you into a condi cleanse build.
    • Poison -- Reduce DOT. Increase healing reduction to 50-66%~. The idea is that you are a team targeter (think Pain Gun medic from Global Agenda). You can still rot someone out with this and the balance that should be over an EXTENDED encounter you rot them down. Not somehow applying 10384108 stacks of poison and bursting.

    Nit picky but IMO...

    • Bleeding -- Leave largely alone. I don't think having a DOT is bad, but it's insane to me that someone can take so much bleeding for free. If this is the only source of "passive DOT damage", it's not that bad. You just get a feel for what builds do sustained damage (Sword/Sword Warrior) vs burst (Thief). An idea I would love to see if getting to full health removing all stacks of bleeding. Lets you counter play with your healing skill, but I feel like I'm already asking the world.
    • Chilled -- IMO this is still largely fine. I would love dodge rolling to remove it and removing the damage element associated with this.
    • Torment -- Remove damage while not moving. Increase damage while moving. Reduce duration. Moving increases duration or refreshes in some way. Visual effect is probably fine.
    • Weakness -- Better visual queue.

    This is from another post on reddit that I made. And sorry if a lot of this is not helpful, but I desperately want to play GW2. Every time I log in I'm met with terrible PvB (player vs bag) of extrinsic rewards that I just don't care about, wade through all of that, then get into a match where I might die to someone just spamming the new meta condi build because I'm trying something new out that maybe lacks a bit of condi clear, or I'm not back up to speed on watching my debuffs. Mind you, I think it's hyperbolic how much you have to watch your UI -- and the better you get at the game the less you look at it.

    TL;DR

    I love GW2. I have loved this game from the first blog post I read about it before ever having played. Constant WvW, great combat, and incredibly risky stuff (living world season 1, destroying your main city, etc). When ArenaNet is at its best, it's untouchable and I will buy every product you ever make. But it's really disheartening to look back at the design philosophy and compare it to today. We used to have really challenging dungeons that gave unique rewards. Now the best skins are locked behind gems and vapid grinds out in the open world. All of the feedback I see on reddit/forums seems to be players being complacent in this. Want to farm a legendary? No no, don't go farm the T6 mat you need. Because there is no way to do that. Go turn your brain off and farm Silverwaste for the best gold value per hour, then translate that into materials (showing my GW2 age a bit).

    It's this kind of mind set that that has leaked into PvP. So many players want to turn their brain off and that is just unacceptable for WvW/PvP. If y'all want to cave to the farmers in PvE/Fractals/Open world, whatever. But if we have a ghost of a chance to take back competitive game modes, I would love to see that happen. I would easily play GW2 every day if the pvp was great again.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:
    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    Sadly this is not what streams show.
    Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.
    I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.
    About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.
    It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

    So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

    Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

    I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

    As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

    You missed his entire point really. Its not a matter of defending it or anyone defending a class.

    I fully understand that. I guess you missed his entire second part of his first post (before this one) in which he was defending thief and condi thief.

    Which is the exact thing he is complaining about when it comes to mirage players: subjective favorism and arguments.

    I have no problem with having classes adjusted, I simply dislike players telling others they are biased, while they themselves go on explaining how their class is free from issues (his entire first post was about how overpowered mirage is and how fine thief). It comes accross as very double standard.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    i play power reaper and i can manage even most cancerous condi mirage, but condi thief rely entirely on cross fingers and pray to the thief do a mistake, if not, theres no way to hit them and theres no way to avoid they condi application.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @sinject.4607 said:
    As a deadeye player this is my perspective:
    Condi mirage is the most overpowered build in the game by far. The core design of multi-casting in mesmer (weapon/utils/shatters/clones) allows for a certain persistent offensive pressure that just works too well with condition damage; this is the same reason people complain about condition thief despite this only being true to a lesser extent with daredevil. This offensive pressure combined with the amount of defensive uptime condition mirage can manage essentially leaves it with no vulnerability windows and no major weaknesses.

    • You can't kite them well if at all because of their mobility in addition to bodyblocking from clones and reflects.
    • You can't offensively pressure them via melee because most of their damage mitigation doesn't occupy their casting queue, leaving them free to weapon attack and use utilities to punish you.
    • You can't reliably CC them because of access to stability/stunbreaks/mirage cloak evade and because MOST OF THEIR INVULN ANIMATIONS DONT PROPERLY RENDER. ESPECIALLY OUT OF STEALTH. This seems to be partly caused when they clone spam as the rendering engine just seemingly gives up with the sudden visual clutter.
    • You can't really avoid their damage because the core design of condition damage/application when combined with the multi-cast pressure of mirage means that evading even their condi burst you will probably lose half your health from passive clone application followed by autoattacks and AoE. Another issue being the efficacy of AI casters- clones are way too fast and way too persistently perfect in their attacks and I think if anything this speaks to overtly easy design of condition damage as I've never had issue with power mesmer/chrono/mirage clones.

    Sadly this is not what streams show.
    Isn't just that your build is hardcountered ? I can see some melee deadeye builds who can manage well against mirage.
    I mean I don't post an op post everytime a thief kill me on power mesmer/mirage while it hardcounter it since release.
    About the "CC imune" : just count the 2 evade then CC burst if I can win on a powermirage versus condimirage it's because condimirage have a really slow setup before damage start to hurt and very visible animations on ambush.
    It's good in a game to have strength and weakness over differents situations.

    Nope. The only posts here defending mirage are from mesmer players such as yourself, while all three pages have a variety of players mentioning condition mirage as broken and even the Devs themselves have echoed some of my thoughts on the build here in this thread.

    So let me get this strait, if players argue and discuss the issues with mirage, they are wrong in defending the class and right in wanting it toned down.

    Yet if the same players start arguing about thief, everyone arguing that thief might have some issues and need some toning down is wrong? You literally mentioned that every one else is wrong about thief, while writing about how condi thief is not overpowered. How are you not biased yourself? :o

    I mean I get being in favor of balance changes for another class, but at least have the common decency to not write about your own class while complaining about other players bias. That's hypocritical. I'm quite sure the general consent is that condi thief is overperforming, just like the general consent is that condi mirage is overpowerforming. If we apply a neutral and unbiased standard accross both classes from a majority of comments in this thread, they both need adjusting downward.

    As far as the devs mentioning things, they also mention that they want condi thief adjusted (as did many players). Does that make your opinion and argument for the thief class void? Please no double standards.

    You missed his entire point really. Its not a matter of defending it or anyone defending a class.

    I fully understand that. I guess you missed his entire second part of his first post (before this one) in which he was defending thief and condi thief.

    Which is the exact thing he is complaining about when it comes to mirage players: subjective favorism and arguments.

    I have no problem with having classes adjusted, I simply dislike players telling others they are biased, while they themselves go on explaining how their class is free from issues. It comes accross as very double standard.

    i was actually talking in reference to the dev sorry the statement was kind of for both of you ;)
    I may or may not be lacking coffee this morning but i get what you mean.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Instant skills are one of the things that we've started discussing internally since cast time isn't something that can be split. One of our main goals for competitive is making sure that there is adequate counterplay. It's going to vary on a case-by-case basis, but cast time increases and adding delays are part of those discussions. Not as splits, but as changes that may need to happen. There's then opportunity for PvE-only splits to compensate skills for these changes.

    Be very very careful with that, instant skills are an important part of the action combat and skillful comboing. If you delete them to much by giving them delays, casttimes/ animations you could make the game unnecessary clunky and unfun to play. In particular on classes heavily based on skillful combos for bigger effects. Instant skills are a good part of higher skill ceiling when balanced designed.

    The only thing you need to keep in mind for balancing instant skills is, that instant skills should not have high killer impact by their own (like high dmg spammable without the need to care for anything like interrupting or other things would add skill ceiling to it). With other words instant skills by their own should be low impact when not used in a combo and when just brainless spammed.

    The only instant skills that currently need attention are Ele Fresh Air traits and Scepter skills and Mesmers Mantra of Pain (turn it into something like Arcane Blast Ele utility for example). Even though i am not a fan of Guards Meditation skills here are the costs in making the power spec clunky and kill the flow totally too high (to name an example). The only thing i could imagine is to make all max range instant teleports without ground targeting (means directly going to the targets without the need of los) work like Revs Phase Traversal with a very little casttime. I could imagine that for Guards Judge's Intervention (even though i would not see a need to rework it, just delete the condi and power dmg part from it). On the other side i would not like to see that cast time on Thief's Steal.

    That you say it will be a case to case decision makes sense because you can see it is rly important to look at what would kill the flow of the class and make it clunky as hell when killing instant skills for it. Smite condition is hard at the limit of being a problem but a little less dmg (yes once again) would be a better nerf than giving it a cast time and animation so it can't be comboed anymore.

    Also skills like Mantra of Distraction would be killed by giving it a cast time and animation. Even when you kill most Quickness sources, most skills still have less than a sec cast time, you need an instant tool for reactive and skillful interrupts on keyskills. Also Mantra of Distraction doesn't rly have killer impact when just spammed by its own (you could reduce the daze duration back to 1secs instead 1,5 secs, that would be a good change). Even with Powerblock trait in addition it needs at least to reactively interrupt and then still has not remarkable dmg but mostly an utitlity and defensive purpose and has a lot of counterplay due to the need of interrupting (no matter that it is instant). These are balanced and skillful instant tools. Means I also don't see a problem in general of instant casts for skills with main purpose either utility or defense (and barely any dmg). Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.

    I highly recommend to only look at Ele Fresh Air mechanic and Mantra of Pain when thinking about deleting instant skills by adding delay/ cast time/ animations. All other instant skills are either completely balanced and skillbased already or only need a little tweak in dmg or effect, so that they are not too strong when not used in a combo and brainless spammed. Everything else would just kill gameplay flow and would make several classes unnecessary clunky (Steal, Mantras without big dmg, shatters, soft interrupt tools without lock down mechanic, teleports and so on). The only thing instant skills should not provide is HIGH instant dmg spammable on max range for high reward by their own without comboing.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @JediSange.1645 said:

    • Take away so many passive stun break or "every 30sec absorb one stun" things in the game -- you want action combat, not "passive procs once every 30sec" combat

    without remove the long stun chains+damage from holo/warr, is just turning GW2 into a Killer Instinct or Tekken, where the one do apply first combo with 50 uniterrupted hits win.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Well this is a good chance to share my idea right?
    i want to write every classes but i think thief is enough sry for my bad english tho
    Dagger
    Backstab: can u buffs backstab to like ignore protection or something like that ? or put it on Dagger training trait of Deadly arts bcuz its kinda useless in pvp,wvw ( for me at least) so it will be the choice between Mug and Dagger trainning + more damage would be please but d/p dash will shine again i guess
    -Deadly Blossom : speed it animation buffs more damage
    -Cloak and Dagger : requested since 2016(?) we needs blind on hit (or critical hit will apply blind sounds fine to me)
    Sword
    -infiltrator's strike : put a small delay like 2s before you can infiltrator's return to teleport back that's kinda enough (?) because i think immobilized isn't the problem for it "CORE" skill but "panic strike" is just add 10-15s icd for immobilized part = poison and that's it
    Rifle
    Deadly aim : if it land a critical hit gain 1 malice would be please
    Spotter shot : 3 > 5 initiative cost because i think 4 isn't enough
    Death's Reteat : get ammo system only 2 stacks and cooldown per stack is 15-20second condi removed buffs it to 2
    good DEs are unkillable with this skill to be fair with this others class that have like 0% vs DE can survived longer maybe? and if u can add revealed to at least 1 skill /class would be another way to counter not just DE but all Stealth
    Staff
    Debilitating Arc : ammo system make it 2 with 5sec cd /stack
    this will mostly help vs perma dodge teef
    Utilities
    -blinding shadow(DE) : please make it foreseeable even you're in stealth it's hard to predict and so good for set up burst
    -Haste : instead of gaining swiftness please make it superspeed :D (not the lesser version tho)
    -Fist Flurry (DD) : sure that this skill is meta for PvE but in PvP,WvW it's just too hard to make it worth for a slot
    -Distracting Daggers : it's just too bad how about if it charge is full next time it hit apply slow and 100% crit with little more damage recharge reduced from 20s to 10s per blade ?
    Smoke Screen : to be fair i love this skill so much after you guys reworked it THANK YOU VERY MUCH <3! but i would say that 20s with trait is very very annoying
    please make it 25s when traited ( so the base cd is 30 if i'm right)
    Scorpion Wire : it's clinky :<
    Caltrops : cast time reduce?

    Trait
    Deadly Art
    Deadly ambition : increase icd to like 10-15 make it 1 stack not 2
    Dagger trainning : as i mention before for backstab i just put it here to remind
    Panic Strike : same as dagger trainning just add icd on immobilized target apply poison
    Trickery
    Preparedness : imo thief should get 15 init base so trickery isn't a MUST and in return make it unique like every 10s in combat gain random stolen skill , stock stolen skill or add 1 more stolen skill slot and you can freely pick one before combat CD 60s like that aren't that suit the "preparedness" named?
    Acrobat
    Pain response : cd to 30? everybody pick instant reflexes anyways so a good choice of condi cleanse or auto evade is nice
    guarded initiation : not just got out-shined but also health req. if u can lower it from 75% to 50% would be please
    CRITICAL STRIKE
    signets of power : can you increased it effects? well looks useless for me but effect on killed is pretty good for pve so idk

    Silly request for Pistol off handed
    Head shot : like seriously? u named it so lethal but damage is so little put that daze away and add 100000% damage to it or renamed it please :>

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.

    Having to use evade to do damage mean you haven't this evade to evade burst/damage which is the definition of tradeoff.
    "tons of offensive pressure" = low setup before strarting hurt while every ambush have obvious animation.
    Go into details please what is tons of offensive pressure, what is trade off, what is great sustain.

    The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.

    No, it's a fact that mesmer is a problem since release because of illusions / targeting problem for the majority of the player base since the release should it be viable or not.
    This explain the "hot issue" and make people like me bored (to not say angry) of gameplay destruction and unviability because of this same player base who will always has issue as long as mesmer pop a clone. Particulary when argumentation is 100% feeling and extrapolation with no data behind....

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.

    I dont agree with you here. Mantras specifically on both mesmer and guardian are probably some of the first case by case skills that need to be looked at.

    Fresh air ele for the most part will be fine with just its damage tone down a good bit.
    There is nothing skillful about a projectiles-less interrupt that can hit from extremely far away on button press command. Even more so that for the fact of it took 7 years just for that skill respect line of sight and require you to be looking / facing the person you want to hit with it.
    Things like steal, base guardian virtues (even some meditations etc), mesmer shatters, shroud activation, etc are fine being instant cast as those things are profession mechanics that i dont think cause any problems on their own. When it comes to utility skills though not so sure i agree. Even more so if that utility inflicts a instant hard cc with 0 tell on button press. Not many classes in the game have this kind of power to be frank i dont think any of them should.

    When i really start to think about hard cc skills on utility skills i cant think of any that dont have any tell, minor delay, or projectile on them that hit from range them aside from MoD on mesmer. it is one of the few outliers that needs to be fixed. Even if its just turning the skill into a projectile at least in that case it can still be instant to use but has the delay of the projectile travel time and can be countered by reflects / projectile denial etc. You will be able to see it coming at you and not just have to do a 50/50 guess on when some's finger is going to press the button.

  • JediSange.1645JediSange.1645 Member
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    without remove the long stun chains+damage from holo/warr, is just turning GW2 into a Killer Instinct or Tekken, where the one do apply first combo with 50 uniterrupted hits win.

    A curious metaphor as from a competitive stand point, both of the games you mentioned are more skill based than GW2 (and random as hell -- let's maybe say Street Fighter or something a bit more modern lol). Obviously you shouldn't get CC chained, but yes, dodging stuns and baiting dodge rolls are an important factor in the game. If CC breaks are limited, and passive CC breaks are removed -- everything becomes intentional and better designed. Right now if you can run 2 different CC breaks on your bar, have a passive CC break from traits -- all on <30-50sec CD, you can break out of basically every stun a Warrior has. Point in fact, for a Warrior to be able to stun you they would have to forego condi clear which is untenable in the current meta.

    My point is mostly that things should have trade offs. If you take CC break, you should be making a choice to lose something else. Damage, condi clear, etc. The issue right now is that things are overloaded. And frankly, the game should be focused on the fundamentals: dodge rolling. The more we can focus on dodge rolling, baiting dodge rolls, and using them skillfully -- that's how you get a high skill ceiling game without all the crazy "balance" that GW2 has currently.

  • If there is anything about gw2 I have a fundamental problem with its evade spam.

    This season I played flamethrower engi and someone shouldn't be able to evade through that auto attack for 10 seconds strait.

    I dont think its particularly overpowered atm, but I do think theres something fundamentally wrong with that.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.

    Having to use evade to do damage mean you haven't this evade to evade burst/damage which is the definition of tradeoff.
    "tons of offensive pressure" = low setup before strarting hurt while every ambush have obvious animation.
    Go into details please what is tons of offensive pressure, what is trade off, what is great sustain.

    Thats not a trade off thats just a part of the elite spec play style dont get the two things confused.
    Reaper has to stay in melee range to do realistic damage but thats not its trade off this is part of its play style.

    Reaper's Its trade off is higher life force cost to use it's shroud mechanic which has less defense for more cleave and upfront damage and the loss of core shroud skills.
    Mirage trade off is not existent among the shatter skills. Not that the current meta really encourages you to use the shatter skills anyway. You can just leave clones up and alive especially staff clones to do tons of damage. through autos and Infinite Horizon.

    The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.

    No, it's a fact that mesmer is a problem since release because of illusions / targeting problem for the majority of the player base since the release should it be viable or not.

    Thats not what we are here to talk about.

    This explain the "hot issue" and make people like me bored (to not say angry) of gameplay destruction and unviability because of this same player base who will always has issue as long as mesmer pop a clone. Particulary when argumentation is 100% feeling and extrapolation with no data behind....

    Well you have alot of people 100% "Feeling" something needs to be done and sooner rather than later this is factual data.

    In truth it does not matter. The only data or facts we need is based on what they dev said. "If its good right now it's considered to be stronger than we want it to be" This factually includes mirage considering its the main combat choice of the mesmer profession in pvp at the moment. You dont need data to know this. This is the reality of the situation.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Greyjoy.5167 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Holosmith

    Traits/Utilities/Healing Skills/Elites
    1. Healing Turret's cast time needs to be increased to 1s minimum. 3/4s base with perma quickness is basically impossible to reactively interrupt. Having frequent access to stab coupled with an extremely powerful, reliable heal provides Holosmiths a very easy way to consistently top themselves off. This should be looked at.
    2. Lock On (the reveal trait) should not be DOUBLE proc 12s reveal on a 25s cd that gives fury and applies 20 stacks of vuln.
    3. Kinetic Battery needs to have it's quickness and super speed duration reduced to 3 seconds and increase the maximum stacks to 10 so that it takes Holos 14 seconds to cycle this trait rather than 7 seconds.
    4. Heat Therapy needs it's healing cut to 1/3 of it's current value (from 65 health per unit of heat lost to 22). You nerfed Rugged Growth (another minor trait) on ranger because it was healing around 600 hps on MENDERS amulet while we had protection.
      • Heat Therapy provides a constant 652 healing per SECOND while at max stacks and causes Vent Exhaust to heal for 800 health every time they dodge. Keep in mind, this insane healing does not require ANY healing power investment asides from the (negligible) amount received from Leadership Runes.
      • In other words, with permanent vigor and Heat Therapy, a Holo can heal up to 9000 health every 10 seconds (6520 passively through Heat Therapy, dodging 3x = 2400 healing with Vent Exhaust).
      • This does NOT include healing from Healing Turret. The health regen on Tools Holo is absolutely insane. It's literally more than a warrior's Healing Signet + max stacks of Adrenal Health (the latter of which requires the warrior to land their burst skills) which only heal for a combined 743 hps in comparison.
    5. Invigorating Speed should give 3 seconds of vigor when gaining swiftness on a 10 second ICD. In it's current state, it gives Holos permanent vigor with very little investment.
    6. Toss Elixir S needs it's stealth duration reduced to 3 seconds. The current iteration gives the Holos a LONG 6 second stealth every 30 seconds that is almost impossible to prevent. This single toolbelt skill lets them reset extremely frequently.
    7. Elixir U needs it's cooldown increased from 40s base to 50s.
    8. Prime Light Beam needs a louder sound cue and needs to have the animation cancel bug fixed (the beam animation shows but doesn't do damage).
    Photon Forge
    1. Holo Leap needs it's cooldown increased to 4 seconds. Spamming this ability gives the Holo incredible amounts of mobility and damage on a short, 2 second cooldown leap finisher. It moves them 450 range on a 2s cd. In 10 seconds, this enables the Holo to move 2250 range on top of their already (near permanent) super speed uptime with Kinetic Battery.
    2. Corona Burst should apply 2 stacks of stab on the initial pulse with 3 targets max. Currently, it is 1 stack per target hit (max 5) on each pulse. This single skill can give the Holo up to 10 stacks of stability for 4 seconds every 6 seconds and requires 2 defensive skills to avoid.
    3. The fact that a Holo can transform and still retain access to ALL of their utilities/toolbelt skills/healing/elite is very strong but disabling them or even just the toolbelt skills might be too much(?).
    4. Light Strike -> Bright Slash -> Flash Cutter need their ranges reduced from 240 to 130. They are nearly twice as long as the ranges of (every?) auto attack chain in the game on top of the fact that they can out-trade nearly everything in melee range with them as well.
    Weapons
    1. Hip Shot needs to have a 1s cast time up from .84s. This skill is a laser beam when the Holo has quickness (which means all the time) and the cast time is so quick that literally tracks a target that entered stealth for 2-3 shots.
    2. Net Shot's immobilize should be reduced to 1 second and the cast time increased to 1/2 seconds.
    3. Blunderbuss needs a longer cast time.
    4. Overcharged Shot needs a longer windup and animation similar to a ranger's Point Blank Shot.

    Bruh you are delusional.
    Pick 1-2 of what you proposed and its gonna be fine.

    All of these can drop at once and Holosmith, both rifle and Prot Holo, would still be an A-B tier build for ranked.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.

    I dont agree with you here. Mantras specifically on both mesmer and guardian are probably some of the first case by case skills that need to be looked at.

    Fresh air ele for the most part will be fine with just its damage tone down a good bit.
    There is nothing skillful about a projectiles-less interrupt that can hit from extremely far away on button press command. Even more so that for the fact of it took 7 years just for that skill respect line of sight and require you to be looking / facing the person you want to hit with it.
    Things like steal, base guardian virtues (even some meditations etc), mesmer shatters, shroud activation, etc are fine being instant cast as those things are profession mechanics that i dont think cause any problems on their own. When it comes to utility skills though not so sure i agree. Even more so if that utility inflicts a instant hard cc with 0 tell on button press. Not many classes in the game have this kind of power to be frank i dont think any of them should.

    When i really start to think about hard cc skills on utility skills i cant think of any that dont have any tell, minor delay, or projectile on them that hit from range them aside from MoD on mesmer. it is one of the few outliers that needs to be fixed. Even if its just turning the skill into a projectile at least in that case it can still be instant to use but has the delay of the projectile travel time and can be countered by reflects / projectile denial etc. You will be able to see it coming at you and not just have to do a 50/50 guess on when some's finger is going to press the button.

    You are right lock down hard cc should never be instant! But Daze is not a lock down, you still can dodge, it is completely fine to be instant and Steal as something that can daze too from max range is also fine. The daze on Mantra always needed line of sight you never were daze when the skill was obstructed, also Mantra of Pain never dmg on you when you were out of los. The only thing actually got changes was that things being behind the Mesmer now count as out of sight. With other words they only nerfed the effect to hit behind, for the line of sight thing it even was a buff because now the charge doesn't activate when it is out of sight. Before patch the charge was just wasted when used on an obstructed target without hit the target at all. It is so funny that you guys are so fine with that on paper "nerf" even though half of it was a quality of life buff for the Mesmer xD Shows insane class knowledge... maybe Mesmer mains can find some other pseudo nerfs to calm down the casual masses and prevent Mesmers from getting nerfed to death even on their most skillful playstyle. I had a good laugh at least here. Mesmer is also an outlines as the only class with clones, lets get rid of that too right? Simple as it is Mesmer is supposed to be the onyly class until now (except for interrupt Ele, which even has passive proc daze on range btw) has clones and an playstyle based on interrupting not lock downing (that is why CI got reworked but Mantra not, it is a big difference).

    Show me your godlike reaction time and reactive interrupt gameplay on a Powermes with a skill having a cast time themself pls (like when you see you want to interrupt an animation wait 0,5 secs before you react and see how often you can interrupt something on purpose with that) and be in facetank range of your target all time when you want to interrupt pls with a glass spec because that is what you ask for right? I bet both hands and my legs you can't win a single fight vs any class with it on same skill lvl. Even less under the circumstances you want to nerf the interrupt playstyle to, what is pretty much the hardest to play and the easiest to counter already. Mantra of Distraction has at least 10 counters i listed several times in this forum, it is utterly useless when random spammed and not hit keyskills as heal on a good moment or big dmg skills or big cc skills in fights or in conquest. Every other utility a Mesmer could take would be more useful than this and easier to use with less counterplay. If you have problems to deal with a Powermes using Mantra of Distraction (with or without Powerblock) on any class (except for Necro maybe but even there you have builds can deal with that at least in duels) than it is a l2p issue 10000%.

    I you just cut Fresh Air dmg it just will be completely useless and used even less than already. Better get rid of the broken high instant range dmg mechanic and give it something impactful but counterable instead.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Quick overview for each class
    Warrior (I may be biased as this is my main)
    -Warrior’s cunning is a bit much, basically designating them as scrapper and scourge killers. I’d say turn down the damage buff and make it apply to barrier exclusively
    -Winds of disenchantment is a bit weak in pvp, and really powerful in wvw

    Guardian
    -Focus is op and is crowding out other weapon choices
    -Firebrand’s healing is a bit much for the amount of damage they put out. Glad they toned it down

    Revenant
    -I literally never see this used

    Ranger
    -Lingbow is annoying as hell
    -Druid, as always, is a bit weak in everything but raids

    Thief
    -Condi thief’s are definitely annoying
    -please buff d/p. It’s so much more fun than s/d
    -Deadeye is rediculously broken

    Engineer
    -Holosmith is way too powerful in some cases, but other things need to be turned up. The holo shockwave changes, while warranted, were a bit much. I’d say that 450 radius is more appropriate (and maybe return it to 600 in pve)
    -Scrapper needs a massive buff. Impact savant is completely awful, especially with the aforementioned warrior’s cunning. Function gyro also is bad, and getting progressively worse. The traits expert examination and damage dampener are also dumb and I never see them used.

    Mesmer
    -Mirage is, as always, a broken kitten, and needs to be toned down so much
    -The lack of distortion on chrono is great (just wanted to thank you for that)

    Elementalist
    -Especially on weavers, the amount of damage they can ignore through invuln is insane, and gives them great sustain, along with the ability to bounce if a fight goes south, especially considering their mobility.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    forgot:
    nerf prime light beam
    offers also to much as rampage for such low cd and low casttime

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @DoritoGod.5817 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

    Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

    I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

    Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

    Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

    For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

    I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

    Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

    im glad ur back at arenanet (:

    but yea delete condi thief

    Very near future release note:

    • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

    NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

    The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.
    Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

    What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

    Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @DoritoGod.5817 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

    Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

    I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

    Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

    Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

    For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

    I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

    Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

    im glad ur back at arenanet (:

    but yea delete condi thief

    Very near future release note:

    • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

    NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

    The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.
    Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

    What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

    Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

    Nerfing deadly amibition won't really affect condi s/d daredevil.

    But this change will really, really hurt all other (manageable) condi builds.

    Take away the poison from panic strike, leave deadly ambition alone.

    THE problem is the overpumped playstyle of s/d daredvil (condi).

    Please, just go after panic strike and remove the poison.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) nom nom nom🥔
    Fun Daredevil

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.

    I dont agree with you here. Mantras specifically on both mesmer and guardian are probably some of the first case by case skills that need to be looked at.

    Fresh air ele for the most part will be fine with just its damage tone down a good bit.
    There is nothing skillful about a projectiles-less interrupt that can hit from extremely far away on button press command. Even more so that for the fact of it took 7 years just for that skill respect line of sight and require you to be looking / facing the person you want to hit with it.
    Things like steal, base guardian virtues (even some meditations etc), mesmer shatters, shroud activation, etc are fine being instant cast as those things are profession mechanics that i dont think cause any problems on their own. When it comes to utility skills though not so sure i agree. Even more so if that utility inflicts a instant hard cc with 0 tell on button press. Not many classes in the game have this kind of power to be frank i dont think any of them should.

    When i really start to think about hard cc skills on utility skills i cant think of any that dont have any tell, minor delay, or projectile on them that hit from range them aside from MoD on mesmer. it is one of the few outliers that needs to be fixed. Even if its just turning the skill into a projectile at least in that case it can still be instant to use but has the delay of the projectile travel time and can be countered by reflects / projectile denial etc. You will be able to see it coming at you and not just have to do a 50/50 guess on when some's finger is going to press the button.

    You are right lock down hard cc should never be instant! But Daze is not a lock down, you still can dodge, it is completely fine to be instant and Steal as something that can daze too from max range is also fine. The daze on Mantra always needed line of sight you never were daze when the skill was obstructed, also Mantra of Pain never dmg on you when you were out of los. The only thing actually got changes was that things being behind the Mesmer now count as out of sight. With other words they only nerfed the effect to hit behind, for the line of sight thing it even was a buff because now the charge doesn't activate when it is out of sight. Before patch the charge was just wasted when used on an obstructed target without hit the target at all. It is so funny that you guys are so fine with that on paper "nerf" even though half of it was a quality of life buff for the Mesmer xD Shows insane class knowledge... maybe Mesmer mains can find some other pseudo nerfs to calm down the casual masses and prevent Mesmers from getting nerfed to death even on their most skillful playstyle. I had a good laugh at least here. Mesmer is also an outlines as the only class with clones, lets get rid of that too right? Simple as it is Mesmer is supposed to be the onyly class until now (except for interrupt Ele, which even has passive proc daze on range btw) has clones and an playstyle based on interrupting not lock downing (that is why CI got reworked but Mantra not, it is a big difference).

    Show me your godlike reaction time and reactive interrupt gameplay on a Powermes with a skill having a cast time themself pls (like when you see you want to interrupt an animation wait 0,5 secs before you react and see how often you can interrupt something on purpose with that) and be in facetank range of your target all time when you want to interrupt pls with a glass spec because that is what you ask for right? I bet both hands and my legs you can't win a single fight vs any class with it on same skill lvl. Even less under the circumstances you want to nerf the interrupt playstyle to, what is pretty much the hardest to play and the easiest to counter already. Mantra of Distraction has at least 10 counters i listed several times in this forum, it is utterly useless when random spammed and not hit keyskills as heal on a good moment or big dmg skills or big cc skills in fights or in conquest. Every other utility a Mesmer could take would be more useful than this and easier to use with less counterplay. If you have problems to deal with a Powermes using Mantra of Distraction (with or without Powerblock) on any class (except for Necro maybe but even there you have builds can deal with that at least in duels) than it is a l2p issue 10000%.

    I you just cut Fresh Air dmg it just will be completely useless and used even less than already. Better get rid of the broken high instant range dmg mechanic and give it something impactful but counterable instead.

    It wont be useless if everyone else also gets adjusted properly with it. Thats why the goal is to cut everything down not just 1 thing or another thing overall

    Though on the effect of a comparing mantra of distraction to thief steal.
    Thief steal requires them to trait for the daze and using it puts them into melee range which means there is some risk associated with using it.
    vs
    Power lock which is a longer daze with no tell, without a trait investment or requirement, has 2 uses, and has no negative to the caster on use as you are allowed to stay at range when using it. About the only negative to the skill is that you have to first charge it which 99% of the time is done out of combat initially making this draw back void to any initial combat situation.

    Sorry i simply dont agree. The skill needs more room counter-play which is something they surely want to do going forward.
    Even a thief's steal has quite a bit of extra room for counter-play forcing the user into melee range and depending on your profession can be countered by things like auras, area denial skills which will still enforce a cc onto the thief, traps, symbols on the floor, necro marks, etc.

    MoD has no such risk.
    You also are comparing a utility skill to a profession mechanic (improper comparison by skill category)

    I looked at utility skills that inflicted hard cc vs MoD not a profession mechanic. In any case its an outlier of a utility skill that needs "some change" even if its still instant it at least needs to be a projectile in which reflects/projectile denial can counter it its only counter should not be stability (which can easily be ripped by the unjust speed of arcane thievery among the chaos) or the power to basically guess on a 50/50 button press.

    The closest utility skills that inflicts a hard cc instantly with no tell at some range would be "Fear me" and rangers "protect me" which both have modest cooldowns and and pretty decent requirements that give room for counter-play or limit them to being reasonable.
    Even "Protect me" requires you hit the ranger to trigger meaning more likely than not something else or someone else can trigger the effect more likely than your target unless its a 1v1.
    and "Fear me" loses effectiveness with range increase from the caster to the target you want to hit with the fear.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Neither Guards Mantras nor Mesmer Mantras (except for Mantra of Pain) need a cast time or delay or animation. If you feel Guards Mantras have too high effects so they are brianless spammable for high reward than better tweak their effects.

    I dont agree with you here. Mantras specifically on both mesmer and guardian are probably some of the first case by case skills that need to be looked at.

    Fresh air ele for the most part will be fine with just its damage tone down a good bit.
    There is nothing skillful about a projectiles-less interrupt that can hit from extremely far away on button press command. Even more so that for the fact of it took 7 years just for that skill respect line of sight and require you to be looking / facing the person you want to hit with it.
    Things like steal, base guardian virtues (even some meditations etc), mesmer shatters, shroud activation, etc are fine being instant cast as those things are profession mechanics that i dont think cause any problems on their own. When it comes to utility skills though not so sure i agree. Even more so if that utility inflicts a instant hard cc with 0 tell on button press. Not many classes in the game have this kind of power to be frank i dont think any of them should.

    When i really start to think about hard cc skills on utility skills i cant think of any that dont have any tell, minor delay, or projectile on them that hit from range them aside from MoD on mesmer. it is one of the few outliers that needs to be fixed. Even if its just turning the skill into a projectile at least in that case it can still be instant to use but has the delay of the projectile travel time and can be countered by reflects / projectile denial etc. You will be able to see it coming at you and not just have to do a 50/50 guess on when some's finger is going to press the button.

    You are right lock down hard cc should never be instant! But Daze is not a lock down, you still can dodge, it is completely fine to be instant and Steal as something that can daze too from max range is also fine. The daze on Mantra always needed line of sight you never were daze when the skill was obstructed, also Mantra of Pain never dmg on you when you were out of los. The only thing actually got changes was that things being behind the Mesmer now count as out of sight. With other words they only nerfed the effect to hit behind, for the line of sight thing it even was a buff because now the charge doesn't activate when it is out of sight. Before patch the charge was just wasted when used on an obstructed target without hit the target at all. It is so funny that you guys are so fine with that on paper "nerf" even though half of it was a quality of life buff for the Mesmer xD Shows insane class knowledge... maybe Mesmer mains can find some other pseudo nerfs to calm down the casual masses and prevent Mesmers from getting nerfed to death even on their most skillful playstyle. I had a good laugh at least here. Mesmer is also an outlines as the only class with clones, lets get rid of that too right? Simple as it is Mesmer is supposed to be the onyly class until now (except for interrupt Ele, which even has passive proc daze on range btw) has clones and an playstyle based on interrupting not lock downing (that is why CI got reworked but Mantra not, it is a big difference).

    Show me your godlike reaction time and reactive interrupt gameplay on a Powermes with a skill having a cast time themself pls (like when you see you want to interrupt an animation wait 0,5 secs before you react and see how often you can interrupt something on purpose with that) and be in facetank range of your target all time when you want to interrupt pls with a glass spec because that is what you ask for right? I bet both hands and my legs you can't win a single fight vs any class with it on same skill lvl. Even less under the circumstances you want to nerf the interrupt playstyle to, what is pretty much the hardest to play and the easiest to counter already. Mantra of Distraction has at least 10 counters i listed several times in this forum, it is utterly useless when random spammed and not hit keyskills as heal on a good moment or big dmg skills or big cc skills in fights or in conquest. Every other utility a Mesmer could take would be more useful than this and easier to use with less counterplay. If you have problems to deal with a Powermes using Mantra of Distraction (with or without Powerblock) on any class (except for Necro maybe but even there you have builds can deal with that at least in duels) than it is a l2p issue 10000%.

    I you just cut Fresh Air dmg it just will be completely useless and used even less than already. Better get rid of the broken high instant range dmg mechanic and give it something impactful but counterable instead.

    It wont be useless if everyone else also gets adjusted properly with it. Thats why the goal is to cut everything down not just 1 thing or another thing overall

    Though on the effect of a comparing mantra of distraction to thief steal.
    Thief steal requires them to trait for the daze and using it puts them into melee range which means there is some risk associated with using it.
    vs
    Power lock which is a longer daze with no tell, without a trait investment or requirement, has 2 uses, and has no negative to the caster on use as you are allowed to stay at range when using it. About the only negative to the skill is that you have to first charge it which 99% of the time is done out of combat initially making this draw back void to any initial combat situation.

    Sorry i simply dont agree. The skill needs more room counter-play which is something they surely want to do going forward.
    Even a thief's steal has quite a bit of extra room for counter-play forcing the user into melee range and depending on your profession can be countered by things like auras, area denial skills which will still enforce a cc onto the thief, traps, symbols on the floor, necro marks, etc.

    MoD has no such risk.
    You also are comparing a utility skill to a profession mechanic (improper comparison by skill category)

    I looked at utility skills that inflicted hard cc vs MoD not a profession mechanic. In any case its an outlier of a utility skill that needs "some change" even if its still instant it at least needs to be a projectile in which reflects/projectile denial can counter it its only counter should not be stability (which can easily be ripped by the unjust speed of arcane thievery among the chaos) or the power to basically guess on a 50/50 button press.

    The closest utility skill that inflicts a cc instantly with no tell at some range without any tell would be a warriors "Fear me" and rangers "protect me" which both have modest cooldowns and and pretty decent requirements that give room for counter-play or limit them to being reasonable.
    Even "Protect me" requires you hit the ranger to trigger meaning more likely than not something else or someone else can trigger the effect more likely than your target unless its a 1v1.
    and "Fear me" loses effectiveness with range increase from the caster to the target you want to hit with the fear.

    Thief is a melee class on most weapons it is barely any downside that Steal ports him in his own attack range xD The Mantra charge has to be done infight a lot of times, i don't want to restart explaining to you too why Mantras are designed as they are and why the recharge clearly is a high cost for it. I am not comparing Steal to Mantra because you have totally different class mechanics/ weaknesses and strengths behind each of these skills make it a comparision from apples with oranges. Just like i gave one example... a Thief wants to get near to the target way more than a Mesmer. I only mentioned Steal (what is not only a daze, traited it has insane effects in addition to the daze, it can be traited way more powerful than Mantra can) because it shows that Anet doesn't have anything against instant range daze until now and that for good reasons (LR Ele is another example provides even passive interrupt daze gameplay). And looking at Chronomancer changes i am just afraid the game will get overly clunky und with way less flow by overreacting to skills only because they are instant. The only things should not be instant are skills with high killer impact by their own (not true for Mantra of Distraction not even with another trait invested like Powerblock) means their power only should come from comboing with non-instant skills they support in some way or it should mainly have utility/ defensive purpose without too strong effects (like a lock down would be too strong ofc, i agreed that reducing the daze duration from 1,5 secs to 1 secs would be a good change, but deleting the instant nature would just kill it. But prove me wrong and show me your gameplay vs decent player with it, i wanna see that godlike reaction time interrupting a 0,75 secs skill with something that has cast time itself). Mantra of Distraction has more counters than most utilities in this game. Sounds weird for an instant skill but it is because the only remarkable value it has is when interrupting what can be countered very easy and in a lot of ways or it is part of a oneshot as simple vulnerability stack tool, the whole combo can be countered very easy too.

    But in the end we can agree to disagree, i hope balance team at least will think about that and don't overreact like casuals to a completely balanced and skillful mechanic needs to be like that or just get killed. Same as for other instant skills i mentioned. Cast time/ delay/ animations i only think are needed for Mantra of Pain and Ele Fresh Air mechanic. Other instant skill only need little tweaks in dmg or effect duration, thats all, no need to kill the playstyle or the flow of a class and lower skill ceiling by preventing comboing just because ppl are too lazy to learn at least 3 out of the 10 mentioned counters to a skill and use some brain when fighting against it.

    That you compare skills like Fear me with a simple daze you can dodge during it, shows that you rly don't have much of a clue what you are talking about. A daze is way "softer" in its cc nature than a Fear or Taunt.

    A Warrior can cc stun lock chain you with stuff you can't dodge anymore, you need a stunbreak for it and you complain about Mantra xD Sure the lock downs from Warrior are not instant but they are lock downs, that is exactly the difference. When a Mesmer daze chain you, you can just laugh dodge or simply run away/ los whatever and wait for your counter pressure being rdy again. If you get into a Warriors cc chain without a stunbreak rdy you are dead.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @DoritoGod.5817 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

    Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

    I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

    Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

    Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

    For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

    I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

    Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

    im glad ur back at arenanet (:

    but yea delete condi thief

    Very near future release note:

    • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

    NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

    The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.
    Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

    What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

    Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

    Nerfing deadly amibition won't really affect condi s/d daredevil.

    But this change will really, really hurt all other (manageable) condi builds.

    Take away the poison from panic strike, leave deadly ambition alone.

    THE problem is the overpumped playstyle of s/d daredvil (condi).

    Please, just go after panic strike and remove the poison.

    If you remove poison from Panic Strike you will severely hurt P/D Condi, better remove immob from Sword#2 and replace it with cripple + chill or slow. (very low durations on chill/slow of course)

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Jekkt.6045 said:
    Hi Cal and welcome to the hell's kitchen :)
    I want to keep this as short as possible while still talking about as much as possible about my observations.

    First i want to talk about the current meta builds:

    Demolisher elixir holo:
    this build has too much sustain for the amount of damage it puts out. the damage should be brought down, or the sustain. either should be fine.

    d/sh + gs spellbreaker:
    basically the same as holo. one problem skill i see is bull's charge. this skill is too good. it's an evade, it's a gap closer, a 3s knockdown and deals up to 6k damage on a quite low cooldown. rework rampage to something else that isn't a transform. shake it off is too unbalanced. it's too much condi cleanse on one button while warrior doesn't have enough sustained condi cleanse elsewhere.

    tactics a/sh + gs core warrior:
    damage output is even higher than spellbreaker for the price of a lack of anti pressure tools (full counter) but with higher sustained healing through for great justice and tactics. the anti barrier trait should be reworked, this trait is an unfun hardcounter to weaver and scrapper. some counters are fine, but this is too much.

    s/p + staff mirage:
    this one is quite difficult. on the one hand, it's very oppressive in a 1v1 and on the other hand quite useless in teamfights. i think both is unhealthy and should be changed. in a 1v1 the problem is the ability to deal a high amount of condi pressure while being invulnerable and in teamfights the problem is that it's hard to apply condis to a target because it's single target and because projectiles hit targets between you and your actual target.

    s/d + sb condi daredevil:
    many people dislike this build quite a lot but i actually think its power level is fine. what i don't like about this build is that it operates with way less skills than power s/d and d/p that have to use multiple skills to deal damage while condi mainly uses infiltrator's strike. what i would do is move the condition application to skills that come after infiltrator's strike. an example would be: instead of applying poison on immob, apply poison with attacks to immobilized (can even include crowd control effects like stun etc) targets.

    healer firebrand:
    i think support firebrand is mostly fine. it's possible that its healing output needs to be lowered a bit if it's too much after the power level has been decreased.

    shiro power herald:
    this build is mostly fine in my opinion. what i'd like to see (and that's my personal opinion) is a very light damage nerf and a bit more condi cleanse.

    weaver:
    weaver is probably fine the way it currently is. maybe burning duration on skills, or cooldowns on priordial stance could be reduced/increased a bit. i have my personal problem with the design of the whole build though. i dislike the way its defense works, mostly relying on evades, a bit of healing and the invul. i think weaver's defense is no fun.

    those are the builds i consider to be on a meta power level.

    now i will talk about other things that need some attention.

    "stall builds" or tanks, however you want to call them.
    Some people might dislike them, but i find them quite interesting. they can change the dynamic of a match which is a healthy addition in my opinion.
    with the reduction of power in the game a close eye needs to be put on such stall builds that they don't become completely unviable. they should still keep their worth as a build that punishes the enemy team if they take too long to kill it with 2 players, but should also be balanced in a way that keeps them from being unkillable at all. their balance should be handled very delicately.

    healer builds:
    i would very much appreciate it if other healer builds could be made viable. currently, the only viable healer is firebrand. tempest for example just falls short in terms of healing output and condition cleanse. tempest has slow sustained healing with not so great condition cleanse which makes it very hard to sustain against heavy condition pressure for an adequate amount of time and struggles in general to heal low hp allies. druid suffers from similar problems. the problem with support ventari revenant are of a different nature. one problem being the tablet. it's quite hard to send it to moving players and heal them. you need to pre cast the heal skill and move the tablet, hoping your ally will not use a teleport. imo the radius around the tablet should be increased to 600 from 240. another problem is the ventari elite. currently, you can use it to decap nodes whichs is kinda fine because rev as a healer is basically unviable (because of the radius). this skill should be changed from a knockback to a stun or knockdown.

    there are some other builds that i would like to see buffed and some changes i'd like to see:

    core d/d ele (damage output too low to be viable)

    shoutbow warrior (longbow pressure is too low. f1 burning needs to be buffed, other longbow skills could use a buff too)

    warrior traits: weaponswap cooldown trait should be made baseline. either completely, or at least 7.5s with the trait reducing it to 5s. hammer trait should be moved somewhere else. it's quite difficult to make a hammer build because you need more than you can take.

    berserker without burst skills when not in berserk mode feels terrible. also, berserker hammer burst cone hitbox is bad compared to the circle of normal hammer burst.

    buff celestial amulet, its stats are currently too low, making it too weak to even consider.

    scourge nerf was wrong. the skills should have been tuned down, not its defense/offense taken away.

    bring back geomancy sigil but reduce the hit damage it used to deal (the spikes if anyone remembers)

    more amulet options, example, thoughness version of vitality combinations and vice versa (example, avatar variation with toughness instead of vit).

    reduce boonspam and reduce boon corrupt

    Wooh man I agree with a lot of this, i'm satisfied that there are others who think like me out there. HYPE!!
    I'll touch on a few things I disagree with.

    Weaver - I guess it's not really a disagreement, though my only suggestion for this build would be to cut down the amount of burn per swapping to fire on enemies be reduced from 2 to 1, as 2 is pushing it a little, given they have other sources of burn through skills and utils etc. This way they still keep the pressure on their enemies, without being possibly way too oppressive unless they build for full damage and sacrifice survive for the damage, though then it wouldn't be a duelist and more a roamer/skirmisher.

    Warrior traits - Not sure if baselining weapon swap to a smaller time frame would be ideal in my opinion, though I think that maybe berserker (to use their burst skills more often) should generate more adrenaline per strike as a baseline in their trait. Keep the reduction in defense, I think that's a healthy tradeoff as it will shine doing what it does best: going berserk and demolishing things with overwhelming power. Maybe some damage reductions on things like gunflame though as well as it can crit stupidly high. And yes, the barrier damage increase trait definitely needs to be toned down. 50% increase? I mean c'mon....10-15% would be understandable but 50% is crazy high. They already do great damage, that's just overkill.
    As for Warrior skills, GS 3 should have its damage toned down, and Bull's Charge should see a big damage nerf since it has so much utility plugged into it already. Else, nerf the utility.

    Necromancer - In general, PLEASE for the love of all things good reduce the uptime of fear. Being feared forever is annoying. Reduce its base uptime to .5s, being fear locked for more than 4s at a time is just unfun.

    Scourge - While I also agree that a tone down of their barrier output from their mechanic skills (besides desert shroud) would have been a good choice to go with, I do kind of like the idea of being more careful in how you place the shades down. As it was before, it was hard to get in and punish the scourge for them making a mistake because they could just use their mechanic skills and still punish you despite their mistakes. This changed opened up a bit more counterplay to their pressure. I don't think the build that's mostly run now should be changed much, as it's meant to be a damage dealing carry through condition pressure, unless Anet decides their barrier output is still too high.

    Mesmer - Again not really much of a disagreement, I think Sharper Images should be looked at and reduced to a 50% chance to deal bleed on illusion crit. Also, the Phantasmal Duelists shoot 8x, while the Mesmer only shoots 3x. I think the illusions should match the Mesmer's attack output of 3x, as there is a trait that causes pistol skills (if I'm not mistaken this also applies to clones/phantasms) to proc bleed on hit. So definitely look into that.

    Now, lets say the powercreep is dying down finally, and we're starting to see healthier gameplay. I wanted to bring this into light, as I think I'm the only one who actually plays this.
    Currently, I run a Scrapper build that focuses on dealing heavy damage to opponents in the form of a Roamer/Skirmisher. It uses Flamethrower in a power setup along with Juggernaut. I'll tell you the main issue I see with the build I use.
    As the powercreep currently is, it's fine. But once the powercreep starts to die down, it's going to need to be adjusted. Because it will be ridiculously broken if left alone after all is said and done. This build can almost indefinitely hold 25 stacks of might. Because of this, I can literally spray 6-7k auto attacks clean each time (unless they just dodge 4Head). 6-7k for autos...is pretty darn big. But as this powercreep currently is, it's justified as other things can hit stupidly hard too. So, what would I want to see nerfed? 2 traits: Mass Momentum and HGH.
    My build runs Firearms 3-3-1, Alchemy 2-2-1, and Scrapper 3-3-3. HGH on elixir use (all my utils are elixirs on this build, namely U, C, and X) grants 2 stacks of might for 15s. While this doesn't seem like much, 15s baseline is a lot. add 20% uptime thanks to HGH, on top of Boon Duration increase from Alchemy itself, and it can get up to 20+ seconds of might (Also thanks to Juggernaut increasing might uptime by another 20%). Couple this with Sigil of courage, every second I am hitting my enemy, I gain ANOTHER stack of might for 10s (maybe more, unsure if the sigils might durations are affected by Boon Dur increase etc). I easily, with no need for team support, keep my might at 25 stacks. That is just absurd honestly. If you're going to keep the might gain at 2 stacks for HGH, lower the uptime to 8s. If you cut down on the stacks of might from 2-1, then keep the might gain at around 12-15s, as it's only 1 stack. If Sigil of Courage is affected by boon duration increase, that should also stop and be unaffected by boon duration increase. And then Mass Momentum, maybe reduce the might stacks to 3s instead of the current 5s, or if it's going to be 5s, make it so it's also unaffected by boon duration increase. All in all, it's going to need to be nerfed, and might not make it to your radar unless someone like me speaks up about it.

    This can apply to any and everything though. All in all, just don't let things escape your radar just because it's not used. According to many people (of which I do not agree whatsoever), just because it's unused means it's bad automatically. When it could mean that the other options are just that much stronger, and if toned down, will give other things that are secretly overtuned their chance to shine and dominate things and ruin things etc. But all in all, I agree with what the write of this comment says with pretty much 100%.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Its been said before, but to me these are the top priority issues right now:

    • Passive might stacking and high uptime of certain boons. Self stacking 25 might, and high to near permanent uptime of boons such as quickness, stability, and protection needs to be toned down.
    • Passive playstyles/damage while dodging. This mainly applies to mirage infinite horizon, and daredevil lotus training + uncatchable. These skills make dodging a major part of their dps, and create very passive playstyles with minimal opportunity for counterplay. Staff daredevil and to an extent sword weaver would be other builds that fit this description.
    • Power damage needs to be reduced. This issue is related to self might stacking.
    • Condi application, cleansing, and passive cover condis need to be looked at. Right now condi is incredibly bursty, where it is far too easy to completely overwhelm your target with 6+ condis, or very high stacks of 1-2 damaging condis. At the same time, its far too easy to remove huge amounts of condis.
  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    you need start with the basics mechanics then you start nerfing every class:

    Evade frames:

    Evade on hit is very toxic and unskillful mechanic, evading while hitting should be removed or give it only for some specific very low dmg skills.
    if you want a skillful game you need to give evade only for players that know when to use it not spam it forever, players need to know when to dodge/block and not random spam it.

    Example of toxic unskillful evades: death bloosom (thief), whirlwind attack ( warrior)
    Example of skillful evades: twiste of fate (weaver), quickshot(ranger), phase retreat(mesmer)

    Blocks are an evade mechanic but they are skillful

    Stability:

    Stability boons are good but should give only one stack per skill slot, some skills give like 5-10 stacks of it, so they become unstoppable and the classes that has it are the ones with one shot potential so you can't stop them a.k.a holos/warriors/rangers
    remove stability stacking from some skills buff the time up, give like protection/stability then a stun breaker, not 5 stacks of stability, stack of stability should be only for using more than one skill or receiving from another character.

    CC:
    knock downs/stuns need to have a lower duration, some knock downs can get you on the ground for 3 whole seconds, that's enough to some classes kill you before you can even react, even if you are supposed to have a stunbreaker you should not die because you get hit by it.

    Damage on classes that has infinite cc:

    A class that has alot of cc should not be allowed to have high damage
    Damage need to be scaled down on some power classes, all you need to do is lower the coeficient from power, no matter how much of toughness you have you going to be "one shotted " after an stunlock.

    Might is not the problem, Damage of some power classes are the big problem, they scale too well with power so when they get Might they start one shoting people, the problem is the power scaling of some skills, some skills can scale too high with power and on top of that they can stun lock you to death, A.k.a Holos/warriors.

    holos and warriors can stunlock you and on top of that you going to die in 2s because of their damage potential, unless you have a stunbreaker and one teleport skill.
    some skills need their coeficient from power tunned down, 50 power can turn into 500 damage on your head.
    just give skills lower coeficient from power like ranger shortbow has, not so lower though.
    **

    Balance stats:

    stats are not very balanced, a perfect balance should be when a player pick only toughness and the other pick only power and when they fight each other they should die at same time, then the player skill factor will influence here, when a player know how to dodge, when to block, when to cc
    toughness now is useful but not as useful as power, like i said before no matter how much toughness you have you going to die in 2 hits because power scale is too high on some weapons.

    also, all classes need to be able to have a fair fight vs any other class, classes need to change only the playstyle

    Boons need to be class specific:
    unless it's a support class that should have all kind of boons sharing

    like alacracy is only for chrono/rev/ren

    quickness should be only for chrono and fb/thiefs/rangers
    protection should be only for warriors/guardians/scrappers
    might should be only for elemental/warriors/reapers

    Condi clear need to be removed from dodge rolls
    warriors/holos dodge rolls, yeah this break condi classes just because some classes can just dodge roll and negate all the damage

    Condi is not a problem!!

    condi is not a problem the problem is how some classes stack it.

    Thief/dd can stack all kind of condi just for dodging or teleporting to you then running away and you are dead, you can't react and can't attack back, poison from thiefs need to do way less damage also they need to stack less condi type so you can clean better, just give a trait for their poison -50% less healing and lower their damage from poison by half.

    mirage can use ambush from clones it's like 3 players attacking you, just remove ambush from clones.

    Now you can start nerfing/buffing some classes

    Classes that need a buff:

    Druids

    Druids traits are very good but the profission mechanic is the worst of the game right now, it's take too much time for the full energy, the heal is not even that good, the damage is bad and you can't use the skills right because of the long cast times while immobile.
    how to fix it:
    While reapers and holos can enter in their form everytime they want druids can't, give a buff on energy generation(2x more) and let druids enter in avatar form whatever they want not just after the full bar or let them enter after 20% of the bar has reached, remove the cd to enter in avatar form, their skill will still have cd of course, this will fix druids and glyphs, because everytime that you need avatar form you don't have full energy, so they can choose when to atk or heal, every 6,6% of the energy bar will be 1 second of avatar form, this will change the class alot and will be fun to play.

    Elementalists

    they need too much player skill to play while there's no trade off for that, staff is the worst weapon, it has a giant cast time for a low damage, in a fast paced game like gw2 means death, you can't stay imobile while being squish to do such low damage, their traits need to work no matter what element they are on, if you choose spec to water/light/earth and you equip fire on combat you lose 90% of your traits, its like fighting untraited, even if they have "4 weapons" it's the only class that fight theoretically untraited, while other classes specific weapon traits work even when you are not equiped with that weapon for half of the power, at least give the traits half of the power when they change the element and they will be fixed, reduce cast time from staffs or give more damage, doing this you going to buff tempests at the same time.

    another suggestion is give them 5s buff of "element memory", can be a little floating orb on their shoulder, so they can dance around elements and have the traits working for 5s for the previous element

    dragonhunter bow

    dragon hunter bow is too slow with low damage, even if it's very fun to play, but you can't compete with a ranger in any form, if you try to fight one 1v1 you going to be destroyed because rangers have more damage, more range, faster attacks, more hp and a pet, give dragon hunter more damage for the bow or faster hits, you always have to change to gs to do damage, also deflecting shot should do knockback even without a trait because you are forced to pick it if you want to be useful.
    also HP, 11k hp is a joke for a guardian while holos/thiefs/warriors can crit you more than that.

    Buff base hp to 15k atleast
    Buff damage of the bow skills because it's slow so it need to do more damage, need at least 25% more damage on the skills to be viable
    Spear of justice should do more burn stacks to worth the lost of virtue trait

    chrono

    fun class to play but it's like a boon bot, you are not the only class with quickness neither alacracy, then you need to shatter but your clones die in one hit and you can't shatter, any other class can out damage you and you don't have IH evasion like a mirage.
    give chrono slow on every shatter skill since they are master of time right? so it's going to be a offensive and defensive buff at same time, slow people down while being fast.
    need to fix clone shatters too, they shatter before they reach the enemy or get stuck doing no dmg. (times catch up -superspeed) should be a passive clone effect without a trait and rework it for another stats.
    (times march on) should be a perma speed rune(99%speed) or they should be immune to mov impairing conditions, chrono have the same speed of a dragon hunter what is a joke to the master of time, because any class have swiftness while mesmers don't have easy acess to it unless you go focus and that's bad for pvp, any class can catch you and you don't have any form of protection, even mirages have superspeeds on dodge!!
    suggestion put times catch up as a minor trait, put times march on as a major trait and give the same speed of rune of speed.

    chrono concept need to be fast while slowing people down!! alot of classes can outrun it and attack faster, a holo/warrior/ranger can jump on you and can't outrun them!!they can clean your slow just be dodging and they will melt you in 2 seconds.

    shield is another joke 30s cooldown and 40s cooldown on pvp it's like 10 deaths while sword block is only 12s cooldown!! echo of memory should do damage even if the attack is blocked as a counter attack, also lower the cd to 20s, tides of time is another joke 40s cooldown is very extreme, this should be 25s cooldown and 15s if you catch it, the damage is too low for shield combination since you need to go sword or scepter.

    Soulbeast dagger
    i really don't see a point in picking it on main hand even if it's the soulbeast main weapon, the range is too low and damage not worth it, lower the cast time of dagger skills, the quickness buff from leap should be around 5s to 10s.

    Classes that need a nerf:

    like i said before if you change the basics most of the op classes will be nerfed/fixed already.

    warriors/holos/thiefs

    Warriors
    Too much CC/Dmg/defense/sustain
    a class witth alot of cc should not be able to do high damage, just lower the power coeficient from weapons.

    Holos

    Too much CC/Dmg/defense/sustain
    they can 10k hit you from range and knockdown you at same time, while having quickness and attacking without a cast time, if you try to fight back they will just stealth, get invulnerable, run away and reset the fight, you can't stop them because of the stability stacks, totally broken.

    Thiefs/DD

    can teleport to you and have evade up time forever, can stack 10 poisons plus all kind of condis on you with only one attack/dodge, unless you are a warrior with full condi clear you going to die, like i said before i think they should rework the poison from thiefs, nerf the damage to half but buff the less heal to 50%-60%, this will make them anti-healers but counterable, also sword 2 imobilize need to be removed because they can spam it and you can't move to fight back.

    Rangers
    sick em is the only nerf needed, they can one shot people with rapid fire.

    Mirage
    everything is fine only IH is broken, let clones evade but remove ambush from it.
    also you can rework clones for more fun, remove all kind of damage from clones, but buff their hp a lot, give the player a little more damage, make clones run when the player run, make clones attack when player start attacking, yeah they will mimic you and players will have more hard time trying to get you and now you are really a mirage without doing op condi stacking

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.

    Having to use evade to do damage mean you haven't this evade to evade burst/damage which is the definition of tradeoff.
    "tons of offensive pressure" = low setup before strarting hurt while every ambush have obvious animation.
    Go into details please what is tons of offensive pressure, what is trade off, what is great sustain.

    Thats not a trade off thats just a part of the elite spec play style dont get the two things confused.
    Reaper has to stay in melee range to do realistic damage but thats not its trade off this is part of its play style.

    Reaper's Its trade off is higher life force cost to use it's shroud mechanic which has less defense for more cleave and upfront damage and the loss of core shroud skills.
    Mirage trade off is not existent among the shatter skills. Not that the current meta really encourages you to use the shatter skills anyway. You can just leave clones up and alive especially staff clones to do tons of damage. through autos and Infinite Horizon.

    Yep, mirage ins't encouraged to shatter at all because ambush & clone auto do more damage than shatter since a years of nerf.
    So if I base my explanation with your trade off definition :
    Having to use evade = less survival to damage is a tradedoff.
    Moreover, you trade shatter/burst gameplay to a more lissed pressure over time. (<= and it's true because a core condi mes with illusion will have higher burst while not having good dps.).
    Clones auto and ambush aren't an asset since they can be kitted/brained as long as you don't melee rollface on a point.

    The fact that mirage is a hot topic means its a problem and its one of the bigger problems that needs to be looked at sooner rather than later.

    No, it's a fact that mesmer is a problem since release because of illusions / targeting problem for the majority of the player base since the release should it be viable or not.

    Thats not what we are here to talk about.

    This explain the "hot issue" and make people like me bored (to not say angry) of gameplay destruction and unviability because of this same player base who will always has issue as long as mesmer pop a clone. Particulary when argumentation is 100% feeling and extrapolation with no data behind....

    Well you have alot of people 100% "Feeling" something needs to be done and sooner rather than later this is factual data.

    In truth it does not matter. The only data or facts we need is based on what they dev said. "If its good right now it's considered to be stronger than we want it to be" This factually includes mirage considering its the main combat choice of the mesmer profession in pvp at the moment. You dont need data to know this. This is the reality of the situation.

    Yeah Mirage is the main choice for mesmer now what is the mirage representation globally and at high level ?
    (Even with NA who seems to have 50% mes representation, when you add WvW and EU PvP, it drop more than you can think.)

    @DinoStone.2485 said :
    Mesmer
    -Mirage is, as always, a broken kitten, and needs to be toned down so much
    -The lack of distortion on chrono is great (just wanted to thank you for that)

    Yeah the chrono change is sooooo good that we didn't see them anymore, thanks for this definition of a good mesmer rework who highlight how think most mesmers whiners here. =)=)=)

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @DoritoGod.5817 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

    Hey there and Thank you for the Update.

    I have to ask, are the sentences in bold ment as questions for the players or an example of what is the Team going to ask themselves when balancing/spliting?

    Also, you say it should be focused mainly on splits, does it mean we should not expect changes to functionality of skills, but instead simple number tweaks?

    Would for example, caping might stacks at 10 be considered a split or somewhat complicated change that is for now off the board?

    For this post, these questions are for the players as discussion topics. They are also things that the team is discussing internally as we look toward these balance updates.

    I want you all to focus on splits because those are the changes we can do with no impact on the rest of the game. If a split makes sense for PvP or WvW, we can just do it. Functionality changes require larger discussions about the impact on the whole game. We are starting discussions internally about things that are not addressable with numbers changes, because there are things that need a functional change but need to change for the sake of competitive modes.

    Game mode-specific boon caps is something that we have talked about, but there are other ways that we can solve some of these problems. For the example of might, I'd want to look at the sources and durations of might applications. 25 might isn't necessarily a problem if it requires significant investment from multiple team members, but a single player self-stacking 25 might is something that probably shouldn't happen. There's also the possibility of splitting the effectiveness on a game mode basis.

    im glad ur back at arenanet (:

    but yea delete condi thief

    Very near future release note:

    • Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
      We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

    NO, please stop with this pattern of nerfing/buffing things, changes like these are why the game is totally unbearable today.

    The trait is good at it is at the moment, it helps a lot of condi builds that are not even viable or good, the only one that is overperforming is condi s/d.
    Please instead of nerfing a trait/skill until it becomes garbage (like most of your balance patches) start looking at the bigger picture.

    What's wrong here is sword #2 interaction with panic strike, and it has been long before PoF (remember condi thief ventari rev meta) you never removed condi thief, you just nerfed it and people realized core was better now it's the same, you nerfed core power and people realized condi thief is much better.

    Remove the poison from panic strike, it's the easiest solution you can do, it will literally have 0 effect in any situation, what makes panic strike worth of choosing is first the other traits are worse and the immobilize effect is crucial in some situations for thieves (chasing) that's it, the poison is unnecessary so remove the poison and add anything else, boom you delete condi s/d thief for good and you don't nerf other condi builds.

    They are looking at the bigger picture. The problem lies in Daredevil s/d because the traits that allow it to stack 6 poison in one go, on top of other things that give poison, are what causes Daredevil s/d to be as unbearable as it is now.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Itz Jay.8941 said :
    Nerf condi mirage hard, this spec has so much evasion it should be pushed more into playing power or hybrid

    False, It has less evade uptime than many other metaclass when looking at vigor uptime, endurance regeneration and evade skills.

    If you ignore there was a year of nerf, your post is useless.


    Duelist’s Discipline
    - Problem: Combined with Sharper Images, this trait means that Phantasmal Duelist alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
    - Solution: Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

    You know that it's normal for a spell with 20+ sec CD, 0.5 sec cast, visible animation to hit for 6 to 8k over 3+sec ? Specialy when traiting for this ?
    It's better to have an instant direct 5k on many skill with bugged or no animation like some class can do ?

    No this is not normal (speaking on "it's better to have an instant 5k on many skill" part), and is part of the problem of the power creep. Just because other things can do it currently, does not mean it's fine. That's not a good comparison example. As Cal said: think of the BIGGER PICTURE as a WHOLE. This is why things all across the board are being brought DOWN, because the powercreep is currently too high.

    Sharper Images
    - Problem: Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
    - Solution: Similar to Sharpened Edges, Sharpshooter, Barbed Precision, and Bloodlust (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

    All the class you link didn't have viable condi build, maybe there is something linked, dunno.

    "Viable" or not, the fact that 2 phants that can hit 8x (the actual mesmer skill for pistol 4 only hits 3x), causing bleed thanks to a trait that allows pistol skills to bleed already (I assume pistol skills on illusions count as these pistol skills as well) coupled with a trait that, if they crit, automatically causes bleed is absurd. You don't see this?

    Infinite Horizon
    - Problem: These trait multiplies the effectiveness of a Mirage’s ambush skills by FOUR times. Instead of using lesser versions of ambush skills, every illusion uses the exact same attack the player uses. This results in: 4 dazes from Mirage Thrust, 25 stacks of torment and bleeding from Imaginary Axes, 10-15 stacks of confusion, torment and bleeding from Ether Barrage, and 4 stacks of burning and 10-16 stacks of torment and bleeding from Chaos Vortex. Keep in mind, these ambush attacks can be SPAMMED and all of these conditions I listed are applied PER USE.

    Lol at the link from 1 years.
    Ok it's not possible now to do this.
    Aaand : Problem : how mirage put pressure without IH ?
    Keep in mind these ambush can't be spammed because you haven't neither perma vigor, neither endurance regen, neither other way to sustain than evade.

    • Solution: The ambush attacks from illusions still trigger but ONLY the animation and minor power damage. They should NOT apply any conditions or other effects. This trait should be used to confuse enemies not obliterate them with multiple, high condition stacks.

    People, like write in this thread are actually enough confuse with illusions, I'm sure they prefer took the damage while just the mesmer attack buffed with the number of illusion than the opposite.

    While I agree they shouldn't have their mirage cloak skills taken away from them, the illusions should at least disappear after use of IH, imo.

    Mirage Cloak
    - Problem: Dodging while disabled should not exist.

    CC fiesta on every class shouldn't exist while no building into it.
    Passive autostab or other CC immune should neither exist.
    Fix theses first plz.

    • Solution: Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

    Did you find viable build on core mesmer without stealth ? Once you show me a prove that this kind of build can even be considered, you can apply your solution.

    I don't think dodging while evading is the issue, the issue is within how they can perpetually cause massive condition pressure thanks to some overtuned traits. So I agree with you on this.

    Illusionary Counter

    • Problem: This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).

    This skill as a 8 sec cooldown and apply 5 stack of torment. (the 600 damage from clone can be deleted.).
    Strangely you miss to talk about confusing image who does less damage than other class similar weapon for same gear ?

    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.

    Solution 1 : don't rollface.
    Solution 2 : cleanse.
    Solution 3 : evade during the counter effect.
    Solution 4 : be out of range.
    Solution 5 : use a unblocable skill.
    Solution 7 : use a evade while attacking/blocking skill like many spec can do.
    Solution 6 : LoS.

    While some of these solutions make sense, the way you present them and most of them are just....not very brilliant in terms of suggestion. Because lets face it, not everything runs a build with unblockables, high mobility (eh well maybe currently everything does run high mobility because it's a bit necessary, which is stupid), and permanent evades. Also consider the fact that CC like immob does exist and prevents movement so LoS, while it's smart, may not always be accessible? Offer an informed and well educated suggestion.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Tulki.1458 said:
    My number one balance concern (which is relevant to PvP but not specific to it) right now is the philosophy of elite spec tradeoffs.

    On paper, giving elite specs tradeoffs so that core builds are viable is a good idea. It opens the door for more build options.
    Unfortunately, this philosophy was pursued only partway and then dropped. And now we're left with a number of elite specs that have tradeoffs baked into them, and a bunch that do not have any tradeoffs whatsoever.

    What are your plans around this philosophy? Are you going to continue it? If you are not, are you going to revert the tradeoffs you've already made to specs like Scrapper and Chronomancer?

    The current plan is to continue adding tradeoffs to elite specs that don't have them.

    I will say this one more time. Unless the core builds can compete with elites, this is a facade. And the elites that you tried to do this with, almost all are not sPvP viable, like: chrono and berserker. The concept from a design strategy.. is wrong. And this has been a trend of all these redesigns. So far, the only one that worked is scrapper. And after 2 re-makes, it ended-up kinda where it started...

    You need to determine how core builds can be competitive first, before making unnecessary changes to elites, that so far, have been completely off the mark.

    I think core builds can be competitive with the tradeoffs added to elite specs. What should also be considered, is the tradeoffs to skills themselves. For example, skills with a lot of utility built into them should not also offer high damage, and high damage skills should not also offer great utility etc. There has to be a tradeoff. Another example, skills on super low, or no, CDs should not be hitting like a truck, while skills with high CDs should not be hitting for so little you can take it legit sit there and take it as if it's worthless. Same with high animation skills, skills with high cast times, etc etc. Many factors play into how skills should do their damage, if any damage at all, based on things like cooldown, resource used, built in utility, cast time, animation speed, and many more.
    But once the proper things are toned down, other things can start to shine more because now they won't be overshadowed by all the broken things that are currently running rampant in the game. I'd be inclined to put some good faith in Cal, he's been around for a while and I think he knows what's good for the game.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.3527
    I actually do have one more question i hope you wouldn't mind answering on the subject of boons vs boon conversion. This came to thought last night as i talked with a friend who brought up a good point. His point calling out how thief can take certain boons before others regardless of what boons are covering the more valuable boons.

    When it comes to boon stealing with thief i know that a thief will always steal some critical boons in a certain order before any other boon.
    With the reduction of boons that might be planned in the future has there ever been any talk about the lesser strips and corruptions that remain after also always targeting specific more valuable boons that often need to be corrupted in a key moment over others or always targeting boons in a specific order based on their value? Ive noticed that some times some boon corrupting/strip skills can be blocked by the aegis boon in some instances while in other instances depending on the skill it may get corrupted or stripped.. Another example you see would be rampage but the warrior has several other boons covering the stability you really need to hit in the key moment to give you a fighting chance and your corrupts fail to hit it due to other cover boons. Resulting the boon corrupter/stripper making the right play and still being punished after the fact this also some times happens with instance of full counter or weavers after they gain stability from stances etc.

    Is there a possibility some boon strips or converts can target only offensive boons over defensive ones while others are more geared to target defensive boons before offensive ones?

    Or do you think that things overall will kind of even out as things get toned down all together?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    Mirage still has no real trade off either so its no surprise people hate it just as much as holo who also has a very minimal tradeoff. Both have great sustain via defensive tools and tons of offensive pressure thats far too unhealthy for the game.

    Having to use evade to do damage mean you haven't this evade to evade burst/damage which is the definition of tradeoff.
    "tons of offensive pressure" = low setup before strarting hurt while every ambush have obvious animation.
    Go into details please what is tons of offensive pressure, what is trade off, what is great sustain.

    Thats not a trade off thats just a part of the elite spec play style dont get the two things confused.
    Reaper has to stay in melee range to do realistic damage but thats not its trade off this is part of its play style.

    Reaper's Its trade off is higher life force cost to use it's shroud mechanic which has less defense for more cleave and upfront damage and the loss of core shroud skills.
    Mirage trade off is not existent among the shatter skills. Not that the current meta really encourages you to use the shatter skills anyway. You can just leave clones up and alive especially staff clones to do tons of damage. through autos and Infinite Horizon.

    Yep, mirage ins't encouraged to shatter at all because ambush & clone auto do more damage than shatter since a years of nerf.
    So if I base my explanation with your trade off definition :
    Having to use evade = less survival to damage is a tradedoff.
    Moreover, you trade shatter/burst gameplay to a more lissed pressure over time. (<= and it's true because a core condi mes with illusion will have higher burst while not having good dps.).
    Clones auto and ambush aren't an asset since they can be kitted/brained as long as you don't melee rollface on a point.

    If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.

    IF you cant understand my joke here then there is no reason to continue the conversation because we will just go back and forth endlessly looping back to the start of the subject where i define what anet sees as a trade off for an elite spec and then you tell me your own made up version which comes from the play style but not the profession skill mechanic (the shatters) and then start poking out other details in other areas that drag the conversation even farther off topic.

    Lets just agree to not agree and we can wait and see what happens we can hope that it works out for everyone in the long run 👌😏

  • Emapudapus.1307Emapudapus.1307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    Since i am playing mostly necromancer PvP (mostly legend in HoT times), these things i think are bloated atm, not fun to play against or use, but necessary because of other powercreep. Also i think there also needs to be splits of traits between elite specialisations since they preform so differently and for one specialisation it can be useless and for other overpowered.:

    Sorry but im gonna reply to this one cause i see a few things that are concerning and fairly questionable in your suggestions.

    -GS 4 reaper: blind, cripple, boon corrupt, dmg, dark field, longer lasting; too much of everything.

    Really this just needs to be sped up keep the blind and cripple. Depending on how much boons get culled down depends on if it should keep its corrupt or not

    -Spectral walk: too bloated atm, duration too long or removal of condi removal.

    This is probably fine as is you have to remember necromancer lost its spectral mastery trait and the spectral skills (except spectral armor for some odd reason) were compensated as a result.

    -reaper onslaught: too bloated, perma quickness with ferocity too much, previous trait was better. Promotes unhealty oneshot builds.

    Well there is no such thing as a 1 shot build on necro that simply does not happen right now unless you stand there and let it happen. There is no skill or combo of skills that nukes you from 100-0 in 1.5 seconds in necros kit. Reaper does not do damage that you dont see coming unlike alot of the other professions, ref, mirage, soul beast, etc, Most classes can often survive a full soulsprial even let alone if they dodge its obvious animation.
    I agree the quickness should be removed from this trait but the ferocity is fine unless we see all other classes also lose ferocity or other similar stat traits. I would suggest making reaper shroud just faster at its base (so its not clunky but also not quickness level fast roughly 30% faster down from 50% that quickness gives) you could easily do this by reducing all the cast times in the reaper kit by 33% of their current base its the same thing as effectively making the skills faster.

    -Master of corruption: the effect is too strong. For it to be balanced the original cooldowns have to be too long, extra conditions arent fun for anyone (aka nerf to heal from 24 to 30 sec and 2 conditions on heal use)

    This makes no sense really. Depending on how long you have been playing you would know that Consume conditions for example use to orginally be 24 seconds and got Nerfed up to 30 seconds with the addition of self vuln application.

    -fear of death: bloated trait. It should give you max 50% fear duration which dont make condi duration less valuable.

    First of all make fear a hard cc then we can talk about cutting its duration. Currently has way too many counters and this makes core un-viable in the pvp setting as fear application is one of its main lines of defense.

    -deathly chill: split between reaper-core-scourage.

    This leads me to think you dont know what you are talking about, or trolling possibly? Because deathly chill is a reaper only trait. There can be no core/reaper/scourge split. Not like this trait is commonly used anyways.

    -death perception: should be reverted back to 50% crit (too many dmg modifiers give rise to oneshot builds).

    Necormancer cannot currently perform a 1 shot build unless you stand there and dont do anything at all. It cant sneak up to you and 1 tap you to death. The old version was far too much crit chance at best reduce the ferocity gain only if other professions also lose ferocity/other stats on their stat bonus traits

    -corrupt boon: its not overpowered but as its design atm with many condi cleanses and many boons, its too spamy and low impact (low impact not by itself but from enemies and their cleanses or bloated use of boons)

    Im not sure its spamy but the only reason necromancer has so many is because so many other professions have a ton of boons that also need to be removed (way more than the necromancer has) and can handle.

    And things that got undeserved, unfun changes or made them useless/pointless:

    -Warhorn 5: rework made it prety useless, pointless and unfun, lower range, shorter duration, no cripple, not working with blood traitline for siphons, killing all synergy. Should be rerolled back.

    I feel like it does not need to totally be re rollled back. How ever the duration that it pulsed over time before should be rolled back. There are some beneifits to having a mobile aoe that does not strike (full counter procs, retaliation procs, shocking aura procs, frost aura procs, etc)

    -Parasitic contagion: could be buffed little and working while in shroud or split between scourage and others.

    I feel like this is one of the traits that should not change till we see how all the other nerfs work out.

    -consume condition: shouldnt apply condition on you

    But you want it when traited to apply 2 conditions and have a higher base cd as stated above???

    -Plaguelands: revert to old spell except for scourage, atm its unfun and useless and in vanilla GW2 it was quite interesting spell to use.

    No point to doing this now imo the old skill did make you tanky but was not that exciting for me personally

    -Lichform: rework? I dont know whats its purpuse

    It may not need a total rework once we see the other nerfs come through but i still think it needs some major QoL if this gets nerfed as it is right now its a dead skill in general. The cd is already too high and the skills are lackluster and clunky.

    -Blood bond: it feels little weak atm, before bugfix when it also healed it was good, noone was complaining its too strong.

    Lol no that was broken you just never saw a good player use it with Signet of suffering. Trust me this trait is fine as it is.

    -cold shoulder: (for me personaly) less dmg recieved from chilled enemies was better for me than dmg done to chilled enemies, too many +% dmg modifiers makes dmg bloated.

    If only chill application was viable in pvp (its currently already not a thing and surely wont be with more reductions coming) At best this trait can be one that meets in the middle with 5% offence 5% damage reduction

    -soul eater: unthematic traitline undergone many iteration now it lost its purpose and its too restrictive (like range or not working in shroud) unfun to use.

    I would say remove the range limit and healing factor from it all together and it might be fine.

    -Axe 2: too clunky if ppl use evade or dodge or something on it. Needs quality of life improvements.

    Lol this is fine as perhaps lower its damage slightly and speed up so that it strikes slightly faster (but can be evaded in a single dodge)

    -soul spiral: poison duration could be increased back to before nerf, would help with bruiser role little and if someone wants to go back to condi reaper.

    No reason to do this as reaper as been slowly going toward the power role. The poison is only there to help combat healing for a short period.

    Deathly chill was typo, i ment dhuumfire.
    As for one shots i ment that they promote them and not like they have it. I am just saying that it promotes unhealthy gameplay towards others and unskillfulll, simple low effort/high efficiency gameplay (perma quickness in shroud + free ferocity). In my opinion the quality of gameplay of reaper was greatly diminished since the change (but at thee time needed because of power creep).
    And you misunderstood master of corruption. I ment that because its strong cooldown reduction the original cooldowns are high (even consume condition was nerfed from 24 to 30s), which i think its not good design. And extra condi on you is not fun for anyone, specially on heal.

    And why you think blood bond was broken? Necro doeasnt have tank build so it didnt help with unkillable build. Power has to take 2 traitlines to be reliable (curse and blood), which lowers their dmg, same for condi with blood. And 1v1 necro also wasnt broken because of it. Maybe if they tone down everything it will be too strong, but even then i think current version could see some improvements.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Emapudapus.1307 said:
    Since i am playing mostly necromancer PvP (mostly legend in HoT times), these things i think are bloated atm, not fun to play against or use, but necessary because of other powercreep. Also i think there also needs to be splits of traits between elite specialisations since they preform so differently and for one specialisation it can be useless and for other overpowered.:

    Sorry but im gonna reply to this one cause i see a few things that are concerning and fairly questionable in your suggestions.

    -GS 4 reaper: blind, cripple, boon corrupt, dmg, dark field, longer lasting; too much of everything.

    Really this just needs to be sped up keep the blind and cripple. Depending on how much boons get culled down depends on if it should keep its corrupt or not

    -Spectral walk: too bloated atm, duration too long or removal of condi removal.

    This is probably fine as is you have to remember necromancer lost its spectral mastery trait and the spectral skills (except spectral armor for some odd reason) were compensated as a result.

    -reaper onslaught: too bloated, perma quickness with ferocity too much, previous trait was better. Promotes unhealty oneshot builds.

    Well there is no such thing as a 1 shot build on necro that simply does not happen right now unless you stand there and let it happen. There is no skill or combo of skills that nukes you from 100-0 in 1.5 seconds in necros kit. Reaper does not do damage that you dont see coming unlike alot of the other professions, ref, mirage, soul beast, etc, Most classes can often survive a full soulsprial even let alone if they dodge its obvious animation.
    I agree the quickness should be removed from this trait but the ferocity is fine unless we see all other classes also lose ferocity or other similar stat traits. I would suggest making reaper shroud just faster at its base (so its not clunky but also not quickness level fast roughly 30% faster down from 50% that quickness gives) you could easily do this by reducing all the cast times in the reaper kit by 33% of their current base its the same thing as effectively making the skills faster.

    -Master of corruption: the effect is too strong. For it to be balanced the original cooldowns have to be too long, extra conditions arent fun for anyone (aka nerf to heal from 24 to 30 sec and 2 conditions on heal use)

    This makes no sense really. Depending on how long you have been playing you would know that Consume conditions for example use to orginally be 24 seconds and got Nerfed up to 30 seconds with the addition of self vuln application.

    -fear of death: bloated trait. It should give you max 50% fear duration which dont make condi duration less valuable.

    First of all make fear a hard cc then we can talk about cutting its duration. Currently has way too many counters and this makes core un-viable in the pvp setting as fear application is one of its main lines of defense.

    -deathly chill: split between reaper-core-scourage.

    This leads me to think you dont know what you are talking about, or trolling possibly? Because deathly chill is a reaper only trait. There can be no core/reaper/scourge split. Not like this trait is commonly used anyways.

    -death perception: should be reverted back to 50% crit (too many dmg modifiers give rise to oneshot builds).

    Necormancer cannot currently perform a 1 shot build unless you stand there and dont do anything at all. It cant sneak up to you and 1 tap you to death. The old version was far too much crit chance at best reduce the ferocity gain only if other professions also lose ferocity/other stats on their stat bonus traits

    -corrupt boon: its not overpowered but as its design atm with many condi cleanses and many boons, its too spamy and low impact (low impact not by itself but from enemies and their cleanses or bloated use of boons)

    Im not sure its spamy but the only reason necromancer has so many is because so many other professions have a ton of boons that also need to be removed (way more than the necromancer has) and can handle.

    And things that got undeserved, unfun changes or made them useless/pointless:

    -Warhorn 5: rework made it prety useless, pointless and unfun, lower range, shorter duration, no cripple, not working with blood traitline for siphons, killing all synergy. Should be rerolled back.

    I feel like it does not need to totally be re rollled back. How ever the duration that it pulsed over time before should be rolled back. There are some beneifits to having a mobile aoe that does not strike (full counter procs, retaliation procs, shocking aura procs, frost aura procs, etc)

    -Parasitic contagion: could be buffed little and working while in shroud or split between scourage and others.

    I feel like this is one of the traits that should not change till we see how all the other nerfs work out.

    -consume condition: shouldnt apply condition on you

    But you want it when traited to apply 2 conditions and have a higher base cd as stated above???

    -Plaguelands: revert to old spell except for scourage, atm its unfun and useless and in vanilla GW2 it was quite interesting spell to use.

    No point to doing this now imo the old skill did make you tanky but was not that exciting for me personally

    -Lichform: rework? I dont know whats its purpuse

    It may not need a total rework once we see the other nerfs come through but i still think it needs some major QoL if this gets nerfed as it is right now its a dead skill in general. The cd is already too high and the skills are lackluster and clunky.

    -Blood bond: it feels little weak atm, before bugfix when it also healed it was good, noone was complaining its too strong.

    Lol no that was broken you just never saw a good player use it with Signet of suffering. Trust me this trait is fine as it is.

    -cold shoulder: (for me personaly) less dmg recieved from chilled enemies was better for me than dmg done to chilled enemies, too many +% dmg modifiers makes dmg bloated.

    If only chill application was viable in pvp (its currently already not a thing and surely wont be with more reductions coming) At best this trait can be one that meets in the middle with 5% offence 5% damage reduction

    -soul eater: unthematic traitline undergone many iteration now it lost its purpose and its too restrictive (like range or not working in shroud) unfun to use.

    I would say remove the range limit and healing factor from it all together and it might be fine.

    -Axe 2: too clunky if ppl use evade or dodge or something on it. Needs quality of life improvements.

    Lol this is fine as perhaps lower its damage slightly and speed up so that it strikes slightly faster (but can be evaded in a single dodge)

    -soul spiral: poison duration could be increased back to before nerf, would help with bruiser role little and if someone wants to go back to condi reaper.

    No reason to do this as reaper as been slowly going toward the power role. The poison is only there to help combat healing for a short period.

    Deathly chill was typo, i ment dhuumfire.
    As for one shots i ment that they promote them and not like they have it. I am just saying that it promotes unhealthy gameplay towards others and unskillfulll, simple low effort/high efficiency gameplay (perma quickness in shroud + free ferocity). In my opinion the quality of gameplay of reaper was greatly diminished since the change (but at thee time needed because of power creep).
    And you misunderstood master of corruption. I ment that because its strong cooldown reduction the original cooldowns are high (even consume condition was nerfed from 24 to 30s), which i think its not good design. And extra condi on you is not fun for anyone, specially on heal.

    And why you think blood bond was broken? Necro doeasnt have tank build so it didnt help with unkillable build. Power has to take 2 traitlines to be reliable (curse and blood), which lowers their dmg, same for condi with blood. And 1v1 necro also wasnt broken because of it. Maybe if they tone down everything it will be too strong, but even then i think current version could see some improvements.

    imo reaper in a power build struggled to kill anything considering when HoT brought it to the game it was suppose to be the go to melee cleave down spec that was offered for the necromancer. IT was ball means a busier who could 1v3 on a point with ease. (i dont consider that healthy gameplay either) slowly they shifted reaper to a power dps role and to do that it needed marjor tune ups in the power dps department compared to alot of other power dps roles. Even now the base shroud is far too slow to work as a proper power up / effective mechanic. The moment quickness comes off RO its going to feel clunky even more so for players who have gotten very use to RO now over the years.

    As for blood bond other classes dont get to keep their abusive skills and traits, note ranger gs auto chain evade, and the obnoxious lockdown (that was CI mirage) why should necro get to keep something like that thats not an intentional thing. I try to look at things from a fair perspective i dont agree that its bugged state was healthy for the game for the few players who did know about it. (alot of people never knew it was bugged like that)

    Moving back to reaper i think they need to remove the quickness from RO in both pve and pvp and maybe drop the ferocity in pvp only down to maybe 150 (if other professions also lose bonus stats on their traits as well because it would be fair that way). From there give RO a new mechanic perhaps it modifies one of the skills in the reaper shroud kit instead.
    But they also need to compensate the default reaper shroud in all game modes making it faster overall say 30% down from 50% so it feels comfortable to use and not clunky slow. Just don't bump it to quickness levels of speed. this opens up trait selections in all 3 grandmasters and allows reaper to have higher potential in pve when grouped with other players who can give it quickness.

    This improves its top end power in pve when grouped
    Lowers its effectiveness in pvp and wvw reasonably allowing it to feel strong and at the same time opens up its build diversity again
    Gives the shroud itself some QoL

    which is probably good on both parts of the game overall

  • Itz Jay.8941Itz Jay.8941 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Itz Jay.8941 said :
    Nerf condi mirage hard, this spec has so much evasion it should be pushed more into playing power or hybrid

    False, It has less evade uptime than many other metaclass when looking at vigor uptime, endurance regeneration and evade skills.

    If you ignore there was a year of nerf, your post is useless.


    Duelist’s Discipline
    - Problem: Combined with Sharper Images, this trait means that Phantasmal Duelist alone can apply anywhere from 8-16 stacks of long-duration bleeding. Also, coupled with Mirage’s exceptionally high access to CC’s, this means that pistol skills can recharge nearly instantly.
    - Solution: Currently, this trait bleeds on EVERY hit from pistol attacks from you and your illusions. Instead, change this to 33% chance to bleed on CRITICAL hits like most other bleeding-related traits. Also, remove the 25% cooldown reduction on interrupt and make it a flat 20% cooldown reduction on pistol skills.

    You know that it's normal for a spell with 20+ sec CD, 0.5 sec cast, visible animation to hit for 6 to 8k over 3+sec ? Specialy when traiting for this ?
    It's better to have an instant direct 5k on many skill with bugged or no animation like some class can do ?

    No this is not normal (speaking on "it's better to have an instant 5k on many skill" part), and is part of the problem of the power creep. Just because other things can do it currently, does not mean it's fine. That's not a good comparison example. As Cal said: think of the BIGGER PICTURE as a WHOLE. This is why things all across the board are being brought DOWN, because the powercreep is currently too high.

    Sharper Images
    - Problem: Again, this trait is 100% chance on critical hits to apply a 5-8 second bleed (Carrion vs. Deadshot amulet). This results in insane amounts of bleeding stacks with little effort on the mesmer’s part.
    - Solution: Similar to Sharpened Edges, Sharpshooter, Barbed Precision, and Bloodlust (basically every single bleed-on-attack related trait), make it 33% on critical hits and reduce the bleeding duration to 3 seconds because the effect can trigger from 3 different sources.

    All the class you link didn't have viable condi build, maybe there is something linked, dunno.

    "Viable" or not, the fact that 2 phants that can hit 8x (the actual mesmer skill for pistol 4 only hits 3x), causing bleed thanks to a trait that allows pistol skills to bleed already (I assume pistol skills on illusions count as these pistol skills as well) coupled with a trait that, if they crit, automatically causes bleed is absurd. You don't see this?

    Infinite Horizon
    - Problem: These trait multiplies the effectiveness of a Mirage’s ambush skills by FOUR times. Instead of using lesser versions of ambush skills, every illusion uses the exact same attack the player uses. This results in: 4 dazes from Mirage Thrust, 25 stacks of torment and bleeding from Imaginary Axes, 10-15 stacks of confusion, torment and bleeding from Ether Barrage, and 4 stacks of burning and 10-16 stacks of torment and bleeding from Chaos Vortex. Keep in mind, these ambush attacks can be SPAMMED and all of these conditions I listed are applied PER USE.

    Lol at the link from 1 years.
    Ok it's not possible now to do this.
    Aaand : Problem : how mirage put pressure without IH ?
    Keep in mind these ambush can't be spammed because you haven't neither perma vigor, neither endurance regen, neither other way to sustain than evade.

    • Solution: The ambush attacks from illusions still trigger but ONLY the animation and minor power damage. They should NOT apply any conditions or other effects. This trait should be used to confuse enemies not obliterate them with multiple, high condition stacks.

    People, like write in this thread are actually enough confuse with illusions, I'm sure they prefer took the damage while just the mesmer attack buffed with the number of illusion than the opposite.

    While I agree they shouldn't have their mirage cloak skills taken away from them, the illusions should at least disappear after use of IH, imo.

    Mirage Cloak
    - Problem: Dodging while disabled should not exist.

    CC fiesta on every class shouldn't exist while no building into it.
    Passive autostab or other CC immune should neither exist.
    Fix theses first plz.

    • Solution: Remove the ability to dodge while disabled.

    Did you find viable build on core mesmer without stealth ? Once you show me a prove that this kind of build can even be considered, you can apply your solution.

    I don't think dodging while evading is the issue, the issue is within how they can perpetually cause massive condition pressure thanks to some overtuned traits. So I agree with you on this.

    Illusionary Counter

    • Problem: This skill is a 4.75 second cooldown, 2 second duration block that summons 2 clones and applies 7 stacks of torment (5 on trigger, 1 per clone).

    This skill as a 8 sec cooldown and apply 5 stack of torment. (the 600 damage from clone can be deleted.).
    Strangely you miss to talk about confusing image who does less damage than other class similar weapon for same gear ?

    • Solution: Increase the cooldown to 10 seconds (8 seconds while traited) and reduce the torment on trigger to 3.

    Solution 1 : don't rollface.
    Solution 2 : cleanse.
    Solution 3 : evade during the counter effect.
    Solution 4 : be out of range.
    Solution 5 : use a unblocable skill.
    Solution 7 : use a evade while attacking/blocking skill like many spec can do.
    Solution 6 : LoS.

    While some of these solutions make sense, the way you present them and most of them are just....not very brilliant in terms of suggestion. Because lets face it, not everything runs a build with unblockables, high mobility (eh well maybe currently everything does run high mobility because it's a bit necessary, which is stupid), and permanent evades. Also consider the fact that CC like immob does exist and prevents movement so LoS, while it's smart, may not always be accessible? Offer an informed and well educated suggestion.

    It was meant subjectively meaning it has too much evasion for what it does.....

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Regardless of how much everyone disagrees with each other's suggestions, I think this is the wrong thread to create arguments.

    It's a rare opportunity where Arenanet directly asked us for our opinions. We should keep this thread clean.

    ~ Just gonna throw that in there.

    Couldn't agree more. For the first time in awhile I'm excited that PvP could turn a sharp corner -- and I don't want the players to get in their own way (like IMO they often do).

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Ele Wish List
    From my understanding, There’s now more control over skills and numbers within PVP and WVW only. Here’s a few things on Ele that I wish would change in these game modes.

    Traits-Earth Traitline is underperforming and needs buffs. If these changes only make it to PVP. So be it.
    Elemental Shielding- Protection lasts for the duration of the Aura (4 sec).
    Is 4 seconds of protection really game breaking? I’m honestly shocked this hasn’t been changed already.
    Serrated Stones- Increased damage from 5% to 7%.
    Nearly every single trait in GW2 involving increased damage via conditions has a baseline of 7%. If not 10%!
    Earth’s Embrace- Cast Armor of Earth while struck below a health threshold of 33%. Cooldown reduced to 60sec.
    This suggestion is moderate, compared to Emergency Elixir for Engineer, which grants 3k barrier and protection, every 40 sec. Armor of Earth only grants two boons, and yet Anet is treating it as if it grants invulnerability.

    --Further changes are in this link. Hopefully more changes will be made throughout the game because Earth Traitline isn’t strong enough to compete with every other core traitline. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90607/earth-traitline-is-in-need-of-buffs#latest

    Utilities
    Armor of Earth- Reduce to 40 sec. Reduce the amount of Stab to 3. Who needs 10 stacks of Stab anyway? Stability at the moment is too reliant on Elite Specs when it should be a core mechanic.
    Conjures- Eliminate Cast time to create conjure. Elite Conjure remains 1 sec. Conjures are never used.
    One reason why is because the cast time is way too long. Pvp specifically is fast paced. If nothing can be changed about the conjures in general, at least reduce cast time. Alternative weapons need to be ready on hand as quick as weapon swapping.
    Unravel-Reduce count recharge to 15 sec. Reduce stance duration to 3 sec. I don’t get why Primordial Stance got buffed to 20 sec, when it was already performing great, but Unravel remained the same. Most Ele’s complain that Unravel is underperforming.
    With this change, Unravel will only effect one element, instead of 2, but will also be able to be used more often.
    Tornado-Skill applies protection in addition to previous affects. Tornado is not nearly as strong as rampage. Lack of defense is one reason why.
    Aquatic Stance- Eliminate Cast time and increase base healing of initial heal. No one uses this stance because Signet of Restoration does the same thing but better. Create equal competition between both skills.

    Dagger Skills
    Earthen Rush
    - Reduce cooldown to 12 sec.
    This skill got nerfed many times until it’s the same skill as Burning Speed. But burning speed has a much lower cooldown. If they’re gonna be the same skill, make the cooldowns the same.
    Steam Surge- Increase Duration of Water field to 4 sec. Dagger is a squishy weapon. Why is the only skill with sustain on a 2 sec water field duration. Sword, which has much higher built in sustain already has a 4sec water field.
    Grinding Stones-Increase Radius to 240. Damage reduction increased to 33%

    I see a lot of suggestions asking for Evade frames on weaver to be reduced. I understand weaver has a lot of built in defense; however, if the plan is to reduce evade frames, please reduce evades on Twist of Fate, not weapon skills. Twist of Fate is a 20sec break stun, superspeed, and evade. If traited, it even grants Stab. It’s a strong skill. Nerfing TOF would be fair, not sword evades.

    Tempest-Plenty of People have said it already, but Firebrand is a much better support than tempest. This is because Tempest does not give out as much boons or as much cleanse. Buffs must be made for Tempest to Compete.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Ghos.1326 said :
    "Viable" or not, the fact that 2 phants that can hit 8x (the actual mesmer skill for pistol 4 only hits 3x), causing bleed thanks to a trait that allows pistol skills to bleed already (I assume pistol skills on illusions count as these pistol skills as well) coupled with a trait that, if they crit, automatically causes bleed is absurd. You don't see this?

    With no traiting, this phantasm do meh damage considering the animation/cast/CD.
    What I see if we talk about same trait comparison is that we have a 3 sec vigor on crit while other have 5 sec for example to jump into the initial argumentation.
    Also they put bleed because if they put any other condition there would be way more whine (can't imagine replacing it by confusion/torment will pass for example.).

    I don't think dodging while evading is the issue, the issue is within how they can perpetually cause massive condition pressure thanks to some overtuned traits. So I agree with you on this.

    I disagree about the "massive aspect of condition" as long as I can with a powermirage win or pressure enough to anticap a condimirage.
    Ofc you can't facetank it on point but with little kite/LoS is very easy to nullify the condimirage output.

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    If thats the case i demand life force consumption for reaper be reverted immediately, skill 5 should be a reveal like is in core shroud skill 2 should blink you to your target and the auto attack should fire arc projectile if the target is not in range lets just ignore profession mechanic trade offs for the sake of defending your main class and pretend playstyle is the trade off.

    In that case I demand to have ambush on shatter instead of on evade then we can talk about no counterpart.
    Effectively if you can't see the counterpart of mirage cloak currently it's not needed to discuss more.
    But I will be here every nerf based on personnal view with no factuals data behind.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Regardless of how much everyone disagrees with each other's suggestions, I think this is the wrong thread to create arguments.

    It's a rare opportunity where Arenanet directly asked us for our opinions. We should keep this thread clean.

    ~ Just gonna throw that in there.

    I'm gonna put a end of perpetual mesmer whine based on feelings with no argument other than "I want to play easy mode against a class". Whatever it came from.
    Note that I don't care about real discussion with explanation.
    With this we can have a real discussion, not only a whine list of people coming here after getting killed by X in the game.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @ParanoidKami.2867 said:
    Can you speed up the animation of Rev shield 4? Tried a healing Rev today and it was very hard to time it to heal my allies. They would all just move out of the way by the time it got to them. I never had any issues with Druid staff 3 for example.

    It’s like shooting a sniper rifle u need to give the discount of the projectile for its distance.

    Reason why I used shield for closer heals and tablet for further heals.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon