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Let's Talk About WvW Balance

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  • @Dahir.4158 said:
    I want to see Elementalist buffed. That's all.

    Ele is in a fine place right now, it has an excellent dps option and by excellent I mean its top dps when played well enough and a support option that provides good healing/boons and great utility that actively sees a lot of use. It can also roam and fight most things in small man and perform well. Really not sure why it would need to be buffed at all when it excels in every area of wvw right now.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 You muuhst B whon of dem Dev fellerz... We aint see many of U's in deez purts mhmm (spits in a well established jug on the ground)... Whelcome 🤠

    In all seriousness... I hope you enjoy this video B)

    In my opinion, there needs to be a higher sense of trade-offs happening. Especially when you have people supporting other allies like with boons for example. Which can, to some degree, negate certain trade-offs. Like say you have low precision, but someone gives you fury outside of you already giving yourself fury... Maybe. Well now you could have just easily pretty much negated what would have been a trade off for you, the player, with low precision. And again, that's just 1 example. Maybe not the best example, but I just chose fury because 20% more crit chance can go a long way.

    When you give something... You should take something away at the same time. Whether it be reaching a certain "power-level" or whatever. And I would keep up with that philosophy on a fairly regular basis so that players remain ether "this or that". Or else you have something like this when players can take part in a bit of everything...

    Lastly, just be more involved in the community more so. Learn from them, generally speaking. Even learn from experience so you can get a taste first hand. Don't just ask... See. Form your own judgments from there. That would be my honest advice. Enjoy the rest of your day :)

    "You can't have quality population balance without quality participation." 🤯

    ~ Me

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Make the Warclaw lance be an unblockable skill ... so u start with something that actually improves wvw and is liked by the playerbase

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Tuchanka.5148 said:
    Combofields -a great thing in "core" Guild Wars 2
    About the TTK- Take a look at gameplay from 2012/13,
    it wasn't a perfect meta but it felt very very good to play compared to now.

    Someone gets it!

    It used to take coordinated teamwork to get that 25 stack of might and other boons on everyone. Now it is just forehead and combo fields are almost an afterthought, except for stealth though.

    Make Combo Fields Great Again

    I'm just going to point out to everyone in rose tinted glasses that the TTK is basically the same. You stack 50 people together and someone getting obliterated is going to happen. The two fundamental differences between now and then that give the appearance that TTK was really high is

    1. Everyone rallies. There was no 1 to 1. Both groups contact and drop 3+ players each and shortly after most of them are right back up because someone got finished.
    2. Stability being a stack and corrupt being rarer meant it felt less 'bad' to run into a fight because you wouldn't turn into a bouncing pinball and then drop, which drastically changes how you perceived TTK.

    Not sure how you got a TTK discussion out of my point about the availability of boons (how you got them) then vs. now.

  • Lala.8752Lala.8752 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tuchanka.5148 said:
    Combofields -a great thing in "core" Guild Wars 2
    About the TTK- Take a look at gameplay from 2012/13,
    it wasn't a perfect meta but it felt very very good to play compared to now.

    good old time for me just before hot meta was really good

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only play smallscale and 95+% of that is solo. For solo players I don't think wvw needs balance bc all the same options are available to everyone and you can essentially self-balance with your choice of class and build, etc. Also, trying to balance for solo players will probably break large scale balance, or at least make it much more difficult to achieve. So I basically have nothing helpful to add, except . . :

    1) The very fact that we finally have someone focused on competitive balance is a huge step forward, so gratz and ty :)

    2) Even achieving 'perfect' competitive skill balance will not improve the game mode until population and coverage are also addressed. I don't want to say rearranging deck chairs on the titanic, but close . . .

    3) Get rid of mounted aegis. It's the only profession skill that works while mounted, so it must be an oversight? If it's not an oversight and working as intended just say so, and I can live with that too :)

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @Tuchanka.5148 said:
    Combofields -a great thing in "core" Guild Wars 2
    About the TTK- Take a look at gameplay from 2012/13,
    it wasn't a perfect meta but it felt very very good to play compared to now.

    Someone gets it!

    It used to take coordinated teamwork to get that 25 stack of might and other boons on everyone. Now it is just forehead and combo fields are almost an afterthought, except for stealth though.

    Make Combo Fields Great Again

    I'm just going to point out to everyone in rose tinted glasses that the TTK is basically the same. You stack 50 people together and someone getting obliterated is going to happen. The two fundamental differences between now and then that give the appearance that TTK was really high is

    1. Everyone rallies. There was no 1 to 1. Both groups contact and drop 3+ players each and shortly after most of them are right back up because someone got finished.
    2. Stability being a stack and corrupt being rarer meant it felt less 'bad' to run into a fight because you wouldn't turn into a bouncing pinball and then drop, which drastically changes how you perceived TTK.

    Not sure how you got a TTK discussion out of my point about the availability of boons (how you got them) then vs. now.

    Oh whoops, was the quote you had that had TTK in it then linked a video of Redguard taking 5+ people out instantly with well bombs. My fault.

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    Balance is not needed when the game mode is dead. Alliance might bring back more people. Until then, changing the meta will not move the game in a positive direction.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Sazukikrah.5036 said:
    Can start by removing aegis when mounting up , make the lances for dismounting unblockable, remove instant finish war claw skill (superiour maul) , add a cooldown on remounting if you were killed and respawned ( to prevent people from coming out from spawn after just dying and contesting capture points infinitely) . Or just remove Warclaw in general. Thats how you can balance WvW right now.

    I do want to have a bigger discussion about the current state of the warclaw, but that's a separate topic. For now I'm trying to catch up with this thread, and we will definitely be keeping an eye on other threads moving forward.

    Ok well in that case.. Keep Lords / SMC and EBG in general need a revamp. They're working off old mechanics from a game that is 7 years old. When theres been a massive power creep added to the game since HoT. Lets talk about the rare instance of players being able to rally from Oakheart vines when they attack the vines that immobilize you. Random NPCS that exist in WvW for no reason like boars / deers that you can hit mistakenly and be caught in Combat for ever and a year. What about Sentry's that can mark you for 30 seconds and stealth players can not clear the mark even when they are a considerable distance away from said sentry. Why is it that a Sentry can mark you, but a tower can only mark you if you are in vicinity? Where is the consistency? We talking about balance you have to balance every aspect of WvW not just Class balance. Want to talk about class balance? Sure lets talk. You have gimmick builds like perma stealth condition builds (IE stealth condition build Dead eye) , where these builds aren't really big in zerg fights , they can render new players useless and make them not want to play the game mode because of these broken mechanics that exist. There isn't any fairness / explanation for new players to be introduced to this game mode. If you want to get people engaged in your game you have to at least explain what they're doing. Balancing a game mode is tough , i understand that but also you have to think about the new players coming into the game. Guild wars does not do a good job at explaining skills that do high ticks of damage and encourages people to just stand still and press 12345 with out even utilizing a dodge button. Theres too many builds that exist that are too tanky and do not require people to dodge out for high burst skills from a Berserker stat class. Balancing needs to add counter-play. Not all things need a counter play but some things like perma stealth builds do not need to exist. One thing that does not need counter play for example would be Mesmers Distort. You literally can not CC them or do anything until their Distort is up. This makes sense and does not need counter play, because that is the sole purpose of the class. Warrior at least has Endure pain but even still you can still CC them and apply conditions , theres the counter play. There is no real counter play to perma stealth unless 1, you have reveal.. which not all classes have access to or 2 you get lucky. And playing Dead eye you can remove reveal.. which defeats the whole purpose. So a condi thief can light you up with conditions in a half nano second and you're dead. No reaction time.

  • @Azog.6215 said:
    I think it's better if some of the devs would play WvW intensively for a week... That is, anonymously, without the Anet guild tag.

    This is a good idea.

    Each class, on different servers and different times, too. Maybe join a guild or 5, see what the guild talks about.

    They'd see the cheats, the hacks, the noobs, the experienced -- everything.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gamander.7269 said:

    Not sure how you got a TTK discussion out of my point about the availability of boons (how you got them) then vs. now.

    Oh whoops, was the quote you had that had TTK in it then linked a video of Redguard taking 5+ people out instantly with well bombs. My fault.

    The Redguard video is a bad example. The top guild on the top server playing against random undergeared zergs. To assess the time-to-kill pre HoT you need to look at guild vs. guild fights with teams of equal strength. Something like this:

    There is still people dropping near instantly. It is not of the same scale, mostly to the stab changes allowing people to remain moving constantly (that has a very profound impact on TTK, more than anything else in this game given the combat is active), and there's no huge wipes due the rally mechanics. But, you can see pretty clearly when they coordinate the well bomb or meteor bomb (which may I add looks kitten beautiful, been ages since I've seen coordinated spikes of that level) that people die, very very fast, with little to no chance to respond.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Short-Term Fixes that don't involve changing classes:

    • No stats on mounts, and remove the skills. Then uncap where they can be used. Have them move max OOC character speed. No bonus health, no CC, no nothing. They should be tools to help traverse the map a little without needing permaswiftness or grouping up for boon sharing mobility, and that's all, and maybe to run past gankers. Gliders are finally in a decent spot with bugfixes and work great as QoL for getting past things like leaving red keep in EBG. Mounts should act like this and nothing more. They just provide way too much defensive capability for large blobs and make it totally impossible for smaller groups to gain any kind of attacking presence on the map into a larger one because groups can respond so quickly. This has doomed small group play which is a substantial number of WvW players.

    • Concentration as a stat needs to be removed. It's extreme, but necessary. It's broken more than just WvW and really ruined a lot of nuance to PvP as a whole. We know you have the technology to do this with changes to Magic Find and ascended accessories in the past.
      It really just has to happen. Boon duration outside of swiftness never has been balanced, and is one of the major underlying issues in that it's responsible for so much damage, CC, and defense creep in the game. With stability on stacks and leveraging permanent and spammed/shared uptime thanks to Concentration, access to CC has become more frequent as a means of removing the stacks. This is a huge issue for when things like boon stripping and corruption gets thrown in the mix, because otherwise playing without boons to deal with the huge issues surrounding corruption and boon removal is just literally not doable when so much of the damage coefficients, buffs, and so on are being released under the assumption everyone has permanent protection/capped might/stability. There are a number of traits and effects which increase damage based on having more boons, which ALREADY offer standalone power. Boons at release were meant to be short-term, but achieving balance with variable duration and cooldowns on such a huge increase in power is basically impossible to achieve, especially when they're so easy to share and take away.

    • T7 food is a problem. Similar to boons, it's just way too strong and gives way too much in terms of stats. Food buffs were traditionally a tiny adjustment, but effects like 100 power+70 ferocity + 10% damage resistance is just absolutely way overkill and just isn't compatible in PvP as a whole. Most traits and pieces of armor are weaker than this. I think food is a valuable part of WvW since it allows for such granular customization, but the T7 stuff is just WAY too strong. Make T6/T7 PvE-only.
      For the later patch, you should disable PvE food in WvW entirely, and then make WvW-only versions available for purchase by the provisioner and mobile provisioner. I REALLY like the stat allocations and general power level of T4 food that already exist on the provisioner, but there are some missing stat combinations that would be nice to see. This also lets you isolate unwanted food buffs and consumables from WvW, and gives you room to make some PvP-specific ones without getting into the mess of needing to make crafting recipes for things you want to add.

    Long-term Problems to Address:

    • Boons, blocks, and invuln effects - Again. I can't stress this enough. They shouldn't be permanent from any given class, and need to be cut down in their access pretty dramatically, especially in AoE form. There's just way too much power on them coming from way too many sources, and corruption and boon denial subsequently plays too big a role in group play. Nerfing boons lets you buff Scourge and Spellbreaker and brings huge diversity to the mode, which is a lot cooler in the end for everyone. For blocks and defenses, again, these went from being effects that had to be well-timed and used intelligently while locking you out of doing anything else (OH Shields, Renewed Focus, etc.) to spammed on half the abilities some classes have while they can still nuke several players around them at once. More unblockable isn't a good answer, because all it does it make for rock-paper-scissors gameplay around blocks and unblockable power, which is not compelling gameplay.

    • Direct support and coordination - Skill in WvW used to feature the need for working together, and aside from running as a blob and mashing buttons at the same time, this really isn't the case anymore. Take this as an opportunity to start cutting "press button for support" style gameplay and bring back the use of combo fields and finishers to help reward player organization. I know this wasn't viewed happily in PvE, but frankly, if raids are going to be a factor in balance decision-making and class design, then the population similarly needs to be willing to work together just as the PvP communities need to, and this can maybe establish more common-ground between the modes.

    • CC. Because of removing boons, CC needs toning down. Remember that Earthshaker used to be the premier AoE CC skill. Bring that kind of gameplay back. Being stunlocked to death by a scrapper or holo and then just getting killed isn't fun, and is again, not compelling gameplay.

    • Like the above, effect visualization. Right now there are a LOT of things, especially CC effects and damage mitigation sources (particularly so on PoF specs) that are just way too difficult to see. A fundamental pillar of GW2's combat system at launch was visual clarity and knowing what hit you and when it was going to hit you (stealth attacks aside). There's a big highly-upvoted thread by @Trevor Boyer.6524 in the sPvP subsection right now about visual clarity on firebrand which even in 5v5 PvP, high-tier players struggle to discern which firebrand is casting which abilities to the point where they can't even tell the builds being played. Look back to Earthshaker. Potent effects like AoE CC should come with big tells that are easy to discern, and things with long animations shouldn't be easily-hidden with stealth or huge visual blur. Move the character models around more rather than adding more particle effects.

    • Damage - Elite specs just do too much as a whole. There's merit to having a few select builds that can burst down single targets very quickly by burning all its resources at the start of a fight and then having nothing left in the tank, but coefficients are too high, damage modifier access has become too easy for a lot of professions not originally designed around having them, and sources of free stats are too common and easy to get access to. Boons are half the battle, but for example, the thief has always dealt high damage because of access to damage modifiers rather than any access to might. If you want a class to be balanced around its boons, it needs hits either to damage modifier access or coefficients.

    • A Divergence from the Manifesto - GW2 enraptured a huge playerbase early on before the game even released thanks to this idea. Please, before making changes which can affect PvP/WvW gameplay, ask yourselves if the design breaks one of the rules. It's sometimes a good thing to bend them, but an example here is the fact that I need to look at a status bar to determine if a mirage is still evading (thanks to what is usually a cloud of other particle effects going on t any given point in time - again with that visual clarity thing) directly contradicts the notion of not needing to look at status bars, and is a huge turn-off from even wanting to PvP or play the game at all, and ultimately makes the customer feel betrayed. Remind us why GW2 was and still is great, and adopt those ideas while making the necessary changes to address these kinds of issues going forward.

    These are kind of the essentials. There's a lot more nuanced balance discussion to be had going forward in respects to specific classes and builds, but all of the above really are quite game-breaking and fun-ruining from the PvP-minded perspective.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • If you want to change the meta in a way they wont just blow up the whole thing you need to understand they meta. With that being said i have watched the anet dev stream and when i watch them get 3v1ed by some keke dude on red bl i can tell you these dudes dont understand the game. Ill be interested to see if you can prove me wrong and bring the powercreep to a good level but it isnt all just as easy as nerfing something because it is strong.

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Retaliation in WvW needs a tone down. Maybe an internal cooldown on how many times it can hit a target?

    For example.. an Ele can drop a meteor shower on a group of people, and if they have retaliation on them, that Ele will basically kill themselves. I get that retaliation is supposed to damage people hitting you, but at the rate it comes in is a bit much.

    Berserker's Arc Divider (Greatsword F1 while in Berserk Mode) still needs damage reduction, and I believe the 3rd radius is a bit too far out. Meteor shower doesn't even extend that far.
    Perhaps with range it could start at 180, then 2nd strike would be 240, then 3rd strike would be 360 to keep it in line with meteor shower distance. As it stands Arc Divider is the largest radius skill in WvW.

  • Personally, I feel Competitive WvW is about being the most prepared with the proper classes and gear/ comp / skills, obviously you want to make every class viable in a sense, but the idea that nerfing boons / condis negates any point of solid cooperation and skilled play, if you have 10 people AoE on the same area someone should probably die, its the point of rewarding those who put the time in to make the best of the meta. There will never be an ideal, "all classes can be played with equal amount of utility and purpose" but the need is to ensure there is a spread of classes that enable different aspects of group fighting. I believe many people enjoyed Core WvW fights because they had different aspects, frontline tanks/dps, ranged healers/ glass cannons, a gank squad, it had multiple aspects of play that allowed nearly all classes to have some sort of identity. Current WvW is a mess of Group buffing and tanking that creates either an unkillable dps machine, why would you want anymore than Firebrands Scourges and when Firebrand provides heals buffs, support cc, Scourges provide, Barrier, res, dps ,boon strip AoE Ranged cleave. I believe it is the multi purposeful fact that enables a, who has more players generally wins style of fighting, because it is easy to faceroll your scourge buttons, but when the game is more complex with multiple classes that build off each other is when you find the competitive scene booming and a better fight scene. Core meta was a great example where, Warriors provided CC, immob and some condi clear, while guards provided melee cleave, tank. Backline Eles had to drop waters for Guards to blast and the melee had to protect the necros from being run over by the enemy melee, while now there is next to no necessary interaction between classes because each one can do basically everything by itself. Fixes would start by forcing classes to fill a role they gear for, maybe FB needs to have less overall healing and more boon/condi removal. Making scourge barrier weak unless specifically geared for. Spreading away from the MegaBlob of Heals/Corrupts/DPS allows a more intricate and fun WvW which will allow more classes to fill the hopefully more roles given to players to stay competitive

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi again,

    I wanted to swing by with an end-of-day update. I’ve really enjoyed seeing the community’s passion on balance and the overall state of the game. There were other topics that were brought up today, and we will create more specific discussions in the future. I will continue to monitor and gather feedback from the forums so keep posting your thoughts as you have them.

    Going forward we want to keep our mission statement of being more communicative and including the community. So here are our next steps on the balance front:

    There will be more posts going into further detail about our balance plans for the next patches. This will include a list of targeted changes for the next balance update as well as our high-level philosophy and vision for the more impactful patch coming later. We will continue to communicate with the community early and often in order to gather feedback on these changes, which will allow us to have a chance to iterate.

    From the whole systems team, thanks everyone for your passion for competitive gw2 and the feedback you provided today.

    Thanks for the communication!

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We need more mobile Sieges for Underpowered Servers

    and some Anti Condition Damage Support Environmental Weapon banners

  • SlateSloan.3654SlateSloan.3654 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    you lost alot players when you changed the passive defense into active defense.

    back in the days armor stats choosal meant something, a full soldier guard could not be taken down in a 1vs1 but as well did so small damage that he could not kill anyone either.
    so armor did a huge part of defense in the past and because of the armor damage reduction players where allowed to make more errors than today because they could be corrected in a fight.

    today it doesnt matter what defense stats you choose. in a zerg fight you dodge too slow and splatter die away. if a game allows for almost no human errors players will stay more and more away cause the game turns from entertainment and fun to stress.

    bring back relevance of armor and move the game away from dodgefest+block+boon only defense and it will do. we have so many different armor stats available. basic survivability must come back.


    Ranger is not a zerg class.
    im tired of the years long argueing between players and commanders on teamspeak if ranger can be brought into zerg or not and yes and no and whatever.
    every class got 3 specializations so please finally turn one of them for rangers to have an integrated function in zerg. there are alot ranger class fans being neglected for like what 7 years... again im tired of the discussion, the frust and anger. and no ranger is not a roaming class its just designed like that atm but players want something else with this class. druid has no function at all, make something out of it or soulbeast if you want to keep arguments for people to buy more than register a F2P Account.


    unequal lootgain between supporters and dds

    make it everyone get equal loot amount.


    7 years passed and we still have no unlimited ascalon mage potion!!!


    for more wvw ideas ask Mr. Z to call O Brien on the phone and ask where they put all the feedback "Sacrx" gave them in the past. it was tossed in some drawer or paperbin he should remember.


    Good Luck!

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Man, just surprise us.
    Nobody will agree on anything here.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • I saw revenant hammer 2 get a rework/nerf because of WvW, but that also changed the way it worked. Instead of the cascading slams going towards a target, it now shoots in a weird off-center line that doesn't go toward a target if you're strafing. I don't WvW but now my hammer 2 doesn't work as well as it used to.

    Can you give back the damage it used to have in PvE? And please revert whatever change made the aiming all wonky.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    give all stunbreaks 2 stacks of stab for 1 sec, give more classes reliable access to important boons like stab (classes can still be the master of certain boons), remove all cone attacks (makes you choose who to help, guard mantras prime example), give all classes unique party buffs (superspeed for example), give ranger and mesmer more aoe capability, cap retal procs to 5 per sec, give self and commanders ability to prioritize combo fields and finishers, buff combo fields and make them integral to wvw again

    guard - burn guard is too much but pls don't destroy it (scepter 2 main culprit), buff scepter auto, buff duration of dh f3
    war - warriors cunning +50% too high, tactics sustain ridiculous but w/e, warbanner cd too high
    rev - ventari needs a stunbreak, maybe put a block on dwarf elite and a cd
    rang - make celestial avatar 10 target, make longbow pierce by default, soulbeast stance share 10 target, traps 10 target
    eng - reduce mortar travel time, make mine field remove 5 boons from 5 targets (also clump the mines closer together pls and ty)
    teef - make rending shade an aoe boon rip, give all rifle skills pierce when kneeling, nerf rifle 4 to 360 range to prevent endless kiting
    mes - make restorative mantras heal on activation (so works for charges too), bring back the glamour blind trait that blinded anyone that crossed a glamour (unlimited targets, great anti zerg build), put in a trait somewhere that doubles all boon rip, alls well that ends well buff healing coefficient by a lot and make wells 10 target
    ele - make staff 3-5's 10 target (not fire), give scepter more cleave, reduce glyph of renewals cd to 40 sec, make powerful aura 10 target, replace might on tempestuous aria with 2 sec of resist, stone heart 3 sec party buff
    nec - give support wells 10 target, reduce lich cd to 90, make plaguelands pulse a set number of condis per sec (blind and burn included), reduce signet of undeath cd to 90 sec

    with more skills splits incoming I think it would be cool to be able to set the special forces training area golem to pve, pvp, or wvw and have an armor slider (maybe start at 2k armor and have multiple choice like now every 500 armor up to 5k)

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Most important change would be to make minions more survivable.

    Maybe reduce the damage they take from AoE and especially from siege weapon?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    bloodlust presence of keep and claim stats. any bonuses like these unless food has got to go. it benefits the bigger team too much.

    also ensure population of each server is not less than 50 as a total on all maps. getting overwhelmed with 5 only versus too many is disheartening.

    these are it in my eyes. the two most important issues.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Mickdog.1602Mickdog.1602 Member
    edited October 24, 2019

    I miss playing the old staff ele which seems to have been long made irrelevant. Some of the comments already made re: combo fields seems right to me, and plays into what made staff ele satisfying. Teamwork was needed to drop the correct fields and blast them. Casting meteor on a crowd felt great, and if you were willing to take a few chances you could cause havoc with a well placed static field or earth 4. There have been so many nerfs... I could go back further and wish for meteor/tornado to be a thing again but that might be asking for too much...

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Speaking generally I would like to see AOE type attacks focus much less on doing damage and more on applying boons/heals or support or impairing type conditions (cripples, immobs chills etc). The single largest sources of damage should be singular 1v1 attacks. This means dodges/blocks armor plays a much larger role in defense.

    Overlapping AOE that hits multiple targets while applying ever more damage just dumbs down everything.

  • Just My Opinions, Been Playing 5 years, (ALL IN WvW) Play every Class, I know these are some crazy big ideas, but MAYBE WE SHALL BE HEARD AFTER ALL THESE YEARS./ SALUTE @Cal Cohen.3527
    And Yes I own PoF and HoT and would like to see a WvW re-launch.
    1. Roll Back Gear Stats and Elite Specializations to Pre-Fall 2014, keep current traits for vanilla specs.
    2. Create New Stats Sets that do not Power Creep WvW and introduce
    3. Release Alliances in full.
    4. Rebalance skills and Traits for HoT Elite specs with “test” weekends
    5. Reintroduce HoT Elite Specs Back to WvW
    6. Balance PoF Specs for WvW again with “test” weekends
    7. Reintroduce PoF Specs Back to WvW

    In the above incorporate ideas, in general, I have had
    1. Make fields great again
    2. Make finishers great again
    3. Make Conditions Specific to a spec or class with 1 damaging condition, one soft cc, one hard cc of a type.
    4. Make reapplication of Conditions higher for single target skills with less damage and much lower for multi-target skills using longer cooldowns, or only apply damaging conditions on a “Final Charge”system with a cap of 10 for damaging conditions.
    5. Get rid of Gear types from PvE, make critical hit chance 100 % across the board
    6. Make Fury counter Soft CC and Stability only counter Hard cc
    7. Make Damaging conditions and CC on separate bars.
    8. Make Condi Clear, clear Damaging conditions only; make it back to the level pre-Hot where one skill normally cleared one condition for your group maybe 2 with shout runes.
    9. Make all Stunbreaks Clear hard CC and Immobilize
    10. Revert to old Stability and reduce the amount of its output in skills.
    11. Make Specializations, specialize in certain boons, but NOT ALL OF THEM, and if they give more than 3, the time should be very short with high uptime or very long for less uptime.
    12. Make Vulnerability at a lesser amount and add it to all conditions in some form and remove it from being its own thing.
    13. Remove Boon corrupt and make it into boon rip across the board.
    14. Make things like herald boons pulsing into charges and give boons on charge 1 then damage on 2nd with larger boon.
    15. Make Scourge a Support class and be Barrier and boon rip class like it should have been in the first place.
    16. Make FB tomes Less powerful and in turn, reduce the amount of time it takes to go into them make tome 3 do physical damage/tank to balance it from being so much all in on support as a role.
    17. Make every class have a way to be a zerg class, a small group class, and a roamer class. I wanted soul beast to be a Melee support class with the stances so bad, but the stances just couldn't take FB but with maybe 10 man stances and traited for 200% time on allies with a 600 radius; maybe?<--- things like that to get it to have a strong place and do something no other elite spec. could have with all the power creep.
    18. Give Heal Rev. the Scrapper treatment in WvW ( gyros to tablet).
    19. Make Chrono Into a boon ripper with wells etc. to give more utility to it after all the nerfs.
    20. Make AOE’s Smaller the more damage they do; lava font should be skill 5, and meteor shower should be skill 2 AOE size regardless of cast time. This would give you a chance to dodge higher damage skills and lesser for more damage.
    21. If you are over 900 range away from your target, the damage should have a lower return. Yes, you can hit someone from 1500 away but it should hit like a mace one on minstrel FB no matter what gear;(wet noodle).

  • @Ok I Did It.2854 said:

    Also any class that can instant kill you from invis, or have the ability to nearly down you, go invis before you can retaliate, and they come back from invis to kill you, this is a fundamentally broken mechanic in the game and needs overhauled, if you are going to allow near perma invis classes, then make it then do 50% less damage from invis, and give every other class a way to remove said invis, to even it up.

    WvW needs completely broken down and rebuilt from the ground up when it comes to skill balance, the current format cannot be balanced, without throwing some classes out of the game mode completely, and making others completely dominate. Just look at the recent change to Necro, they ruined it in open world PvE and made it even more deadly in WvW, but that concept has went over them completely, it needed to be toned down slightly in WvW and slightly buffed in open world ( think raids / high end fractals ) but that wasnt done, even after the patch and people complained its been ignored, what about Warriors doing 40k damage with a rifle!

    But ill add i dont honestly have high hopes for this, alliances where announced nearly 2 years ago, we heard in August that they would talk to us in a couple of months about them, and its been radio silence since then, skill balance now cannot save WvW alone, it seems we only ever want to have discussions about these problems but never get around to fixing them or when they think they fixed it, they miss the mark by a mile.

    I hope for the sake of this game mode, this new dev gets to communicate with us, and can actually get WvW back on track, but we've seen this before, we get a few comments followed by 6-8 months of silence.

    I totally agree with this too, your first paragraph also fundamental level but falls into different category which is roaming, my post is about the zerging fundamental.
    Before it was 1 party will consist Firebrand-Firebrand-Herald-Scourge-Scourge/Spellbreaker
    Now since scrapper got more usefull it replace the 1 Firebrand become: Firebrand-Scrapper-Herald-Scourge-Scourge/Spellbreaker

    No matter what it is the party always consist those 4 class, Sometimes even Herald and Spellbreaker you don't need much only a few, the core of whole thing is Scourge and Firebrand. Try to go 1 party without Firebrand, that party usually will die more because no stability provider, get CCed at 1st engage, usually the Commander will say "Play more careful on engage you got no FB" and if we lack Scourge the Commander will say "Can someone swap to scourge? we lacking damage." though I believe what he means is the damage plus the ability to corrupt boon which is more dangerous than boonstrip.

  • Heibi.4251Heibi.4251 Member ✭✭✭
    1. Thief should not have the ability to port anyone in. Get rid of the portal. Mesmer should be the only one with a portal.
    2. Thief stealth time is way to long. They are now able to nearly perma stealth. And with the addition of the portal you spend way too long chasing after them.
    3. Scourge road of death needs to be addressed and nerfed massively. They apply too many condis way too fast to too many targets. Reduce the range and how many boons they can corrupt as well.
    4. Warrior invulnerability needs a down tick.
    5. Pulls need to be more line of sight based. Too many times have I seen people pulled out of a tower or keep when they are on the stairs down below the wall.
    6. Ranger is not broken. Too many people just don't know how to fight one. The unkillable claim should go to the warrior invuln. Rangers die fast. No one wants rangers in their zerg but for some reason but them claim they are over powered(making you think you would want one in your zerg - go figure). The only ones complaining are the ones who can't fight them.

    Enough for now.

    Henge of Denravi Commander
    CA/CH/HOD/AIR

  • Simzani.4318Simzani.4318 Member ✭✭✭

    Ho, another restructuration. 5th time ? I'm sure it will work this time, promises.

  • Acheron.4731Acheron.4731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    OK, Taking Wagers Now!
    When will we hear back from Cal (CMC):
    Less than six months from now?
    6-12 months from now?
    Next Alliance update (aka >12 months from now)?
    The usual (never)?

    jk, Cal, glad to have you over on the Dark Side.
    Keep up the good work good sir!

    Don't Worry, My Dutch is OK

  • "we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing"...... me, staring at my mesmer that i barely play anymore since the chrono nerfs. Make chrono playable in wvw again.

  • I quoted another guy but I thought it was time to put my 2 cents in the hopes that anyone would listen. Kind of a last shot type of deal in a game where I have found joy commanding and leading since year 1. I really do not care about credibility but seems some think its necessary to get a point across.
    1. Commanded and followed for the infamous SFR win over VZ in year 1
    2. Main mag commander after Season 1 when i transferred
    3. 5 years leading a open field fight guild and gvgs. (not the best but yes we gvgd)
    4. Main mag commander for the return of mag beating BG

    First any anet devs left need to go to each server EU and NA and take a look at WvW numbers, not builds, not siege, mounts. Pay attention to prime time and off times. The main imbalance in this game comes from off hours or lack off for almost all servers. Your game has died at least for NA and it is time to realize this and combine EU and NA which is very possible.
    Second, everyone talking about builds. Players make metas not anet we will alwasy find a way to tweak a meta to the best of our fighting ability. That being said the current meta depends on to much support b/c of to much damage. If you look at older metas damage was a team sport not 1 guy dropping 50 CORs in a group this is something that needs to be addressed. WvW is supposed to be a team effort yet you took the team out of it and put it in the hands of a few.
    Third, mounts they really are not needed. Gliding is enough. This takes a lot away from fighting. People now run from fights instead of standing there ground. Even with the spear thing. WvW is about fighting and objectives. Forces players to learn to fight or they can leave.
    Fourth, EOTM. I have said it since day 1 it is the worst thing you could have ever done. creating a whole other WvW scenario helped destroy WvW a long with drastic meta changes (hot) make EOTM uplvl only and get your people back into WvW.
    Fifth, Why is red bl still here? Not 1 player ive ever talked to enjoys it. It s map designed for pve and pve only. Rework the current maps and get rid of it.

    Remember Metas will always change with all fight groups. Listen to those that actually do the fighting not sitting in towers. Listen to Roamers who actually scout for commanders and listen to people who actually play WvW. You have your work cut out for ya most of the old regime has left but one thing they always say is gw2 still has the best fight mechanics of any mmo game. Listen to that and they will return. Good luck and i hope the best

    SnoopysRevenge

    SnoopysRevenge

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    So how about ANET decides what the TTK (Time to Kill) should be in WvW, under various situations, and start from there? Once you folks agree on a picture of what that looks like, you'll know right off what needs fixing.

    This is very much what I was talking about for the long-term, and one of the things we want to gather feedback on through this discussion. It's less about the 25% or the 15% for any given skill and more about defining what the power level should be, then adjusting all skills and traits to fit into that paradigm.

    How will you discover where that power level should be?

    Do you have a Beta WvW test environment? Where several hundred players can try out proposed adjustments (without losing their current server affiliation)? Every adjustment should be seriously tested prior to implementation.
    If you don't have such Beta servers for testing, then the game world is your Beta test environment.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @arenta.2953 said:
    2. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance arrowcarts.

    Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it DID happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is still lacking, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

    This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Char.4209Char.4209 Member ✭✭

    Maybe it would be a good Idea to rework all skills that are totally or almost useless in wvw like ranger spirits, warrior banners, engi turrents.

    Also Ranger was always a meme in wvw for beiong useless, but with the stanceshare soulbeast it is the best candidate for competing with the support firebrand. Maybe both builds can be bakanced to be equally strong. Giving a tempest shout groupstability (like on aftershock) would make it another good competitor for the support position.
    Give every Class some kind of passive or skill for 10 players so that everybody want to have this class at least every tenth player. Maybe balancing all support related skills around 10 players would be a good Idea

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    1.) Both Boons and Condis are too effective.

    This has been truth for years, but with power creep it has gone only worse. Both are designed to fight pve mobs. If you do 30k dps on a static mob, that's cool because it has millions. But players on the other hand?

    Boon uptime isn't a big deal, nor is condi duration. You should reward people working as a group. But the boons and condis themselves need to be toned down (eg, might should give less power, protection, should give less damage reduction). Otherwise you are always balancing around people having -33% damage reduction and those numbers will always be bloated.

    2.) Crowd Control is way too effective.

    People say stability is too important. Well, it's important because this game has an obsession with knocking your character around like a ping pong ball. Honestly, what is the fun of being locked down for half an hour? Look at the weapon sets. There's CC everywhere! People have been asking this for years, but diminishing returns?

    3.) Downstate needs to be nerfed.

    Oh look, I'm outnumbered 5:1 but I can gun down this errant scourge. Never mind, those firebrands just hug him and he's back up again!

    MI in particular is stupid and also pretty much never leaves any respectable Support Guardian's bar for a reason. It should be nerfed by a good deal, and all res traits and skills need to be looked at. Stop listening to the "ermagawd I wanna be a healer" crowd. We just end up with this nonsense. I mean yes, downstate can encourage teamwork and good communication but at this point we've devolved to it being a total carry.

    4.) Mounts still need more nerfs.

    We're almost there, but why should the person on the mount have the initiative of a gap closer and a damage skill? I think Battle Maul needs to do very little damage but keep the stomp ability.

    5.) Projectiles are screwy

    It goes both ways. From arrows hitting way further than they should to them being a liability due to the abundance of reflects. Projectile attacks need to be rethought.

    6.) Stealth

    While I don't consider it that big of a deal, consider that stealth is generally penalized in pvp because of capture point contribution which is a factor that is downplayed in WvW.

    7.) 10 person boons.

    Please get that raid kitten out of here.

  • Pre HOT the game felt really good after HOT everything seems going downhill.The current powercreep, condition spam, boonrip, boonspam, skillspam, in general the game lost the meaning of landing your skills and timing it, playing around enemy cds and etc.. to a degree, im not exactly sure how exactly you can balance in wvw terms the amount of combinations of traits, gear, runes, sigils, foods and utilities with so many professions and 3 spec each there will always be something that people will complain about.Test server will help to get those balance changes polished and tested before releasing, im not sure why this game doesnt have one.

    Just throwing few ideas here :
    1. Each spec can have its own base attributes stat wise.
    2. Each spec can have its own traits instead of mixing with the core ones, so that you will balance worry free specific specilization.
    3. Some sigils and runes and armor stats should be changed and by changed i dont mean nerfed, but balanced around what can be used for what and why the synergy there is so strong.
    4. Remove the Guild Auras and Presence of the Keep and replace them with some other bonus that doesn`t include stats in it.
    5. Make solo and small scale roaming great again, the game was used to be full of roamers now there are very very few which is sad in a way.
    6. Mounts i have to say this is by far the dumbest thing from my point of view introduced to WvW, the ability to have such mobility on any profession is just plain dumb.
    7. Make GW 2 great again.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    My top concerns are mostly an end to the endless spamming which before HoT came out they nerfed retaliation which we really need those anti spam measures back which also in pvp used to be usable with strategy there too but hasn't in years. Also limiting the size of squads and promote more people to start commanding instead of just one guy for a single guild or server. Also a re-work or some kind of counterplay to things like watchtower and mark/revealed/detected kitten with that people have had plenty of options to do it before but its now just a passive thing since they won't adjust their builds to fight a thief when it becomes necessary but is the purpose of builds is to outplay or out fight the enemy and remove the passive nonsense. Plus watchtower should require something like supply to keep it operational and not just some absolute thing that makes it where no one will touch a t3 tower with watch tower. Also implement some kind of stat rating so that people who are just loading up bots cannot enter wvw there are quite a few pve guilds that are going into wvw these days and you can tell if you res them from double downed and takes a nano second that they have either no gear or very little and should not be able to enter competitive like that. Which are a lot of the people crying for nerfs when it has nothing to do with the class they are fighting its just anything that can do any amount of damage can instantly double down them.

    Overall just a lot of horrible decisions have literally killed the game mode. There are less people now than during HoT's release and that felt even dismal then its pretty much going into a game wide funeral except for the role players they are getting by in divinities reach.

    Edit: Forgot one other thing a lot of our small scale combat has been destroyed over the years and its kind of time to bring some things from being unplayable in wvw to being playable like d/d for thief and ele for instance you can play them but the amount of effort you have to use is substantially more than what you should have to do its kind of like handicapping yourself to play the way you want to play which is against the way gw2 has advertised itself for years but is now just a lie basically.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Please do anything to core engi? Holo can take another nerf no problem, but core engi traits are just sad, especially Firearms and Explosives. Give us some options for builds without elite specialisations. Move some damage from Holosmith to Explosives/Firearms. Both trait lines are so convoluted I struggle to pick a combination when try to build craft.

    • Explosives buff nades, bombs, bleeding and some raw damage.
    • Firearms buff burning, condis... bleeding too? And crit dmg so raw damage as well? On top of that grandmasters there make so little sense I'm not even gonna try to analyze them. Most of the line buffs condi dmg but grandmaster trait grants additional power damage based on conditions? Huh?

    Bring some identity to those lines, move kit-specific traits to Tools, raw damage and crit-related traits to Explosives and make Firearms a condi line.

    And for god's sake do something to retaliation damage, granades and Flamethrower are impossible to use in WvW, the former can deal 5000 damage to engi with single autoattack only.

    [NUKE]

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi again,

    I wanted to swing by with an end-of-day update. I’ve really enjoyed seeing the community’s passion on balance and the overall state of the game. There were other topics that were brought up today, and we will create more specific discussions in the future. I will continue to monitor and gather feedback from the forums so keep posting your thoughts as you have them.

    Going forward we want to keep our mission statement of being more communicative and including the community. So here are our next steps on the balance front:

    There will be more posts going into further detail about our balance plans for the next patches. This will include a list of targeted changes for the next balance update as well as our high-level philosophy and vision for the more impactful patch coming later. We will continue to communicate with the community early and often in order to gather feedback on these changes, which will allow us to have a chance to iterate.

    From the whole systems team, thanks everyone for your passion for competitive gw2 and the feedback you provided today.

    I'm seriously hoping against hope that this will not end like the "Collaborative Development Initiative". Remember that?

    Yeah...

    Check out the fable of the Boiling Frog.

  • this is nice ! and we welcome all the balance changes and the wish to fix things ! game is really unbalanced right now ! but this is something important for me to ask! what about PVE balance? i;ve seen post about WvW balance and PVP balance but the PVE really do need balance aswell.
    right now theres an awful state of the game that there are hanful of classes that are meta and the rest not worth runing for pve.
    and as much as i understand the pvp balance and wvw balance are critical cause people are competetive there the pve got some aspect of competetive in the raids and fractals and the balance there is not less important or broken.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion but
    Why is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

    Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    So how about ANET decides what the TTK (Time to Kill) should be in WvW, under various situations, and start from there? Once you folks agree on a picture of what that looks like, you'll know right off what needs fixing.

    Good post - that's where I'd want to start as well.

    It looks like a lot of people have already discussed various outliers, and from my perspective it becomes obvious what those are when some baseline for what's OK has been established. So I'll just share my thoughts on the long-term meta.

    • In a one-on-one fight, it should take at least 3 seconds to down another player if they do everything wrong.
    • In a one-on-one fight, any build's defenses should be counterable (eventually) by any class running a build designed to break through those defenses.
    • There should be diminishing returns on stat stacking. For example, going from 3000 to 3400 power should seldom be a better choice than going from 1000 to 1400 vitality on the same build (unless you never expose yourself to damage).
    • Healing or regenerating a useful amount should require an investment in healing power - so players with 0 healing power should be mostly reliant on team-mates for healing.
    • Boons and conditions should be relatively rare and meaningful. Conditions should be used to disable defenses and apply long-term damage pressure (not burst); boons should mitigate those.

    And then there's the long shots:

    • Stealth should be a strategic ability that can only be applied outside of combat. Classes that rely on it for tactical combat should be adjusted so they can survive using other forms of evasion instead.
    • Mesmers should focus on nullifying enemy defense and offense to leave them vulnerable to attacks, not providing burst damage.

    Ideally I'd like something closer to the GW1 state where there was more of a synergy between classes in a team - you'd have them focus on specific things more often than trying to do a bit of everything - and where disenchanting and dealing damage were often performed by different players, both roles being vital if you wanted to score a kill. I'm seeing a lot of builds that just obliterate other classes without having to worry about defenses as anything but a speed bump in GW2, which makes for less satisfying fights.