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Let's Talk About WvW Balance

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  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Suggest Improvements: I suggest do minimal/minor changes.
    Give details and examples: The current balance is mostly ok, because I was tr any "overpowered build", and as my opinion not have big luck.
    Also, without any personality I have opinion that most player never try use "overpowered class and have great success"

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    try something. will give feedback. beta test it.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    ~snip~

    Hello Cal, hello all.

    Thanks for the communication. I'm not sure I'll be able to split my thought in short-term/big picture, but I'll try to be as structured as I can. First of all, my point concerns small scale, because that's most of what my friends and I are involved in.

    Diagnostic

    If I had to point the most blatant issue of WvW, I could word it : some players just don't want to fight.
    It's provocative and probably exaggerated, but it makes some sense when you think It's been a while since various current-flavour OP builds are pointed here, with a constant "build x can oneshot anything with little to no risk". The whole recent dismount topic (players on mounts could plainly avoid fights) say the same thing. The dismount skill is mostly used for easy fights, and players will mostly engage in fights they're sure to win in the shortest amount of time.

    There're mostly three reasons behind that behaviour :

    • Player psychology : roughly "It's a game, why should I bother ?" or "Why would I want to be put in a nasty IG situation on my leisure time ?"
    • Game mode functionnality : things like rewards, and incentive to fight. The intrinsic pleasure of fights as well
    • Opportunities availability : the game allows me to build in such a fashion, or provides a mechanic like the mount that allows me to avoid a fight.

    Player psychology can't be controlled, and game mode functionnality is a whole other topic that's worth for itself, which leaves the questions How can the game avoid the one-sided fights ? and How can the game provide engaging fights ?

    This concerns fight mechanics, and class design philosophy, which will be my two topics, which broadly overlap with short-term/big picture split.

    Fight mechanics

    I'll first say I totally agree with @Turkeyspit.3965 who said the relevant indicateur should be the time to kill.

    One of the first issues is WvW's default skills are PvE skills, which are designed for encounters with foes with a very high HP pool. Moreover, teamwork allows for very high potency, mostly because of raids, which require a constant max boons uptime, huge DPS, and huge sustain (healing output). When this design is transferred to WvW, where foes are PC with a comparatively tiny HP pool, it leads to a lot of possibilities of instant down.

    Second issue is, as @SoV.5139 stated, there're too many possibilites of extremely potent builds with very few trade-offs. High reward, with very low risk. A related point is the whole system tends to "Attack is the best defence."

    Here's a list of ideas related to figures that may help solve the issue :

    • Adjust all figures around the idea of 20k HP foes ;
    • For most calculations : lower the base value, and increase the multiplicator. It could help with the trade-off idea ; only HP pool could be raised ;
    • Make the boons and condi stacking not linear : in the current state, 20 bleed ticks make 20 times the damage of 1 tick, which is what linear means. Other formulas could allow for a cap. For example, n ticks would deal DMG=MAX(1-exp(-kn)) damage, with MAX, a max damage value, and k a value that'd increase with the condi stat (the higher k is, the less stacks you need to reach MAX)

    More specifically on the trade-off topic :

    • Invulnerability shouldn't allow any damage
    • Remove damage on hard CC skills : either a stun/daze, or damage. Both allows for stunlock-death mechanics, which are frustrating and lead to one-sided fights. Allow a special effect to trigger on interrupt through traits.

    On the boon topic, the aim should be : "significant, but not determining." It would allow for more build diversity, and make the corrupt/strip less painful. Some ideas :

    • Lower their potency : either by lowering the max stacks, or the figures, or the amount one PC can have at a given time ; other idea would be : increase their rarity, but it's less easy in the current state of the game ;
    • Index their potency on stats ;
    • Limit the availability of boons for each class. There currently are 12 boons. Let's say each given specialization would allow for 2 boons. This would make each build have only 6/12 boons available.

    On the condi topic, it's a bit more intricate, because damage dealing conditions can be the core damage output of builds (which is ok), and other conditions should also be "significant, but not determining." A limited overhaul is suggested at the end.

    • Limite the availability of condis for each class. With a limited set of damage/debuff/movement skills etc.
    • Split skills so that they only work on a specific condition type. Which goes for application, transfert, conversion...

    Design philosophy

    I think the keyword here is choice. The amount of choices players are given to take part in the gamemode in an enjoyable way, and the impact a choice has (trade-offs again). WvW is a great gamemode with a lot of potential. Unfortunately, it's mostly boiled down to the PvP topic, and fights (small scale, PvD, zergs, etc.). This reduces the choices given to the player to "fight." This is a game design issue.

    Now, given the only thing to do in WvW is fight, what are the options ? This leads to the balance issue. Balance allow for specific build to have a high potency with low risk in a given situation (zerg, roaming...) which therefore become mandatory. The only effect of balance patches is to shift the meta to other builds, but doesn't fundamentally change the situation.

    To me, the first thing to do is add mechanics that'd be enjoyable, impactful and rewarding, and not be centered around fights. Also, the choice of a given profession, of an elite specialization, of the other specialization, should mean a specific gameplay/role, and come with strong significant trade-offs. Single target or AoE ? Play for myself or for others ? Melee or range ? Condi or DD ? Bunker or glassy ? Such choices have to be more meaningful. An interesting example is the dodge trait for daredevils, which flavours a game mechanic. Then, more choices should bring value to some stats, stat combinations, runes so that more build would be viable.

    Condi overhaul suggestion

    The idea is to split the conditions into categories, and limit the condi output of a given build to 1-2 of each. I'm using current condi names with slight effect changes.

    • Damage conditions : stack intensity. Bleed, burn and torment. No functionnality change
    • Punishing conditions :

      • Blind : next attack misses and reverts x% damage (blind is removed)
      • Confusion : next skill inflicts x damage (confusion is removed)
      • Poison : incoming heals are reverted to x% damage (like, you heal for 2000, it's negated and hits you for 500dmg)
    • CC conditions :

      • Immobilized
      • Fear
      • Taunt : functionnality change : puts all skills to a 1-2s cooldown, with an interruption of cast skills.
    • Debuff conditions :

      • Chill : no functionnality change
      • Crippled : movement and endurance debuff
      • Vulnerability : no fucntionnality change
      • Weakness : reduces outgoing damage (including condi ticks)
      • Slow : no change

    Thanks for reading !

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    This is really the crux of a lot of things we want to address. Boons vs corrupts, damage vs healing, stability vs cc, among so many other things. These are all in the state of being extremely powerful as a way to counter the other side being extremely powerful, and are all things that we want to address moving forward. It's important to keep these balanced against each other, but we want the power level to come down.

    1. You have to choose carefully which traits and skills revise: the risk is to kill the game.. lot of players have left GW2 tired and disappointed cause months and months of no sense changes and patch notes.

    Take for example Dagger/Pistol power Daredevil classic build (with dash dodge, DA, Trickery and DD): before PoF release its damage was much higher than the current damage: now a backstab makes from 5,5k to 9k.. before PoF you could reach 12-13k.. With same gear and runes, If you switch to Deadeye your Malicious Backstab makes 10-17k..

    I used this example just to say: not all build and classes need their power level to tone down. You have to act on the right levers.

    1. When you think about WvW, please keep in mind the difference between zerg builds and roaming builds.. Don't kill roaming!
  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i have quit quite some time ago but what driven me away is simple thing u mentioned already...
    the power creep if its not raw dmg it would be insane amount of conditions some1 can slap on u constantly or in few seconds.

    also i think some classes lost all their identity, i mean thief is no longer that annoying hard hitting kitten nope its turned into a wet noodle class that is still pickinghis fight but if u know how to play thief u can most of the time deal with thiefs when u face on if ur playing something else.
    and go on i liked core gw2 more where certain classes where really pushed into a side and u would excell at it.

    now u have made almost everything the same but certain classes like ranger mesmer thief holosmith and maybe some others are just useless cus others do the same but better...
    i can solo roam on scourge and out dps a thief i can blob on scourge and out dps a thief i can havoc on scourge and out dps thief or w/e i do on scourge ill do it better then a thief...
    its just sad how u made other classes shine at everything..

    i mean personally i doubt ill ever return to gw2 i just dont like the game anymore since HoT then PoF came and then stupid mounts came to gw2 it was more or less the end for me i tried to play with mounts etc but it was just kitten.

    for me to try this stuff again i would really like to see classes being put back to what they where suppose to do and not being able to shine at everything while others cant shine at everthing.

  • Tammuz.7361Tammuz.7361 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalan.9705 said:
    Your better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless you admit WvW and PvP combat are fundamentally different, and therefore MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilize autonomy and split states).

    Otherwise you only have 3 bad outcomes:
    1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
    2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
    3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.

    quoted for truth...

    would also add a 4th point in there for PVE...

    Also outliers really fall into 3 categories: boons, strips, bugs.
    1) Strips: shades hitting 10 targets. This is now the only offensive AOE in the entire game that is not subject to the 5 target cap. This has taken what was a powerful WvW class and mechanic, and pushed it over the edge into the overpowered realm. Consider making it obey the 5 target cap that all other classes, abilities, etc are subject to. What i DONT want to see is a flat: "nerf scourge and boon strip into the ground", boon strips are a good mechanic and SHOULD remain the counter to boons.
    2) Boons: only one class and build type having good access to buffing stability. this means its mandatory to have a 1:5 ratio of that class since there are no alternatives. Obviously the ability to spam stability becomes even more important in a meta where strips are also OPed. Consider focusing on buffing other dedicated support classes and builds by giving them access to this buff. What i DONT want to see: "nerf firebrand into the ground" or "nerf stability". Absolutely NO ONE wants to play a CC fest. (If they do there are plenty of MMOs out there (both new, old, and remade old MMOs) where you can sit and watch your character be CCd into oblivion.)
    3) Bugs: Fix the COR pathing bug already please!

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Outlier: Professions/specs that rely on summons such as mesmer or renegade will always be at a disadvantage in zergs. They need the dmg reduction from PvE. And be, not necessarily uninterruptable, but moderately usable against 20+ enemies.

  • Heibi.4251Heibi.4251 Member ✭✭✭

    I've seen a lot of stealth mentions including my own. Another aspect that could be added is that movement under stealth must be done at walk speeds. In order to be stealthy one must also be quiet. You could also add that heavy armor can't stealth(makes a lot of noise and you can't hide) if they are moving at full speed. Or make players shimmer at high speeds other than walking.

    Also of note on stealth - you can't use siege under stealth. Once you click on a piece of siege you become visible.

    Henge of Denravi Commander
    CA/CH/HOD/AIR

  • allshallperish.4620allshallperish.4620 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Pansoul.9436 said:
    When will alliance come out?

    IMO alliances should not happen unless ANET implement/ensure the following things are achieved/maintained as a priority.

    1. Fix LAG skill delay - They could fix this easily or too hard idk?, reduce the number of players allowed on a map , instead of 70 vs 70 vs 70 lower it all until no skill lag (easy????). Obviously that means bigger queues for some servers in its current state pop wise, however if they ensure balanced population across all servers then you will achieve also a more balanced overall lower queue number.

    2. Make WvW more fun - Stronger teams/guilds/players/servers should not be fighting vs much weaker enemy and MUST BE matched vs similarly skilled players, smaller Good Groups should be able to kill larger groups again. Time spent doing nothing or the bare minimum should be kept to a minimum, i.e running, exploring, seiging, gathering. reparing. The action part should last the longest the fighting/war experience, reduce boons and reduce boon rips spammmmmm. Since HoT we saw power creep and now its just a meme. The core game was fun and now its way less fun since HOT and POF has been released and ive had to pay for the game to be less fun?>??? makes no sense. Id pay alot of real money to have core only version again though. Melee trains, backline, focus party meta was the best, fights that lasted longer than 60s and where individual skill and group skill really showed. REMOVE CLOAKING WATERS, REMOVE DRAGON BANNERS etc if you want to know the reasons why you obviously dont play this game or lack understanding. remove mounts remove gliding from wvw. remove the watchtowers and remove or lower max stealth durations. PPT yawn delete make matches alto shorter like spvp. Lastly and by no mean least, skill balance.

    3. (Active) Population balance - will never happen due to anet making money from transfers/current system, unless they can monitize it in some way. And this is where the whole alliance thing fails. An alliances success will impact one or more major goals, especially involving growth, if they cap the amount of players in one alliance then how will it grow? it wont and how can they make money from a static group of loyal players, hope the people that joined the alliance are kicked and then they have to find another alliance??. The success of the alliance develops or reinforces a core competency, especially one which provides a competitive advantage and / or blocks a competitive threat, bandwagoning is ANETS butter and the linking, relinking system is anets BREAD.

    4. GvG system implemented - will never happen and idk why. But they need to atleast bring in some rewards and support the scene way more than they have previously.

    5. Player/guild ranking system - more stats more things to make the gamemode more competitive. Rank 1 guild fights rank 2 guild (obviously a points system needs to be made based around wins/loses etc etc.

    6 Better rewards equal to pve. I dont want to pve to get X, i enjoy playing wvw. Get fresh blood into the game mode and reward those that play it. Growth & Sustain.

    7 Unban my perma'd main account xD

  • @shiri.4257 said:
    One side argues there are too many boons. another argues that there are too many strips. what a giant clown fiesta of gamers we have.

    I sense you maybe mocking my clown friends for thumbs up? but infact You are all thumbs, yet you have observed well and managed to piece the puzzle together infront of your class mates, little do they know you are unaware on what the puzzle is. (spoiler alert = all the clowns are infact correct ;-))

  • Loke.1429Loke.1429 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?
    Stealth in this game is too plentiful, too easy to get too much of, and the mechanic is broken/overpowered becuase it lets you pause combat, makes me miss other games. its incredibly/too troll friendly, it makes the game less fun for everyone else, too much mobility combined with too much stealth is really just bad game design.
    Also, buff ele. All ele staff auto attacks should instantly connect similar to ranger, and have lower cast times (its magic kitten). Classes need less invuln. in general

    Condi ticks should not keep you in combat when opponent stealths, only hits. I have no idea why you didnt fix that before, its very important for balance in general

  • Cool but what about alliances. It's been...nearly 2 years?

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for reaching out, hopefully this reflects a change in the game's design philosophy moving forwards.

    Damage vs Healing: If what's on the table are skill splits between modes, the first change you should make is to damage and outgoing healing % modifiers. Cut them in half for all professions in competitive modes, on all traits and skills. This would change TTK so every fight isn't a shootout or matter of who can chain invulns longest.

    Once that's done, look for high base damage or base healing on every profession. No one should be able to go from 1-100% in a second with no healing power. Similarly, no one should have a skill that deals enough damage to one shot another player. I know that's an unpopular opinion, but it's not how the game's mechanics are set up since some classes have 0 access to defensive cooldowns other than dodge. There was nothing enjoyable about fighting the old sic 'em ranger builds for a reason.

    Boons vs Corrupts: This will be a little harder to manage with skill splits because it has spiraled completely out of control. This needs functional changes, like removing many boons from skills/classes completely instead of just reducing the number of stacks or duration. I think it's been said a few times now that more classes need access to aoe stability since that's the driving force behind a firebrand per party. If all you're willing to do right now is skill splits though, I'd start with reducing might generation from warriors, guardians, and heralds. Then i'd look at access and duration of aoe protection and resistance. Maybe reduce herald's fury output and give access to aoe fury to other classes.

    For corrupts i'm not even sure where to start. 10 target ranged sand savant was a poorly thought out change because it backed you into a corner from a design standpoint, with just skill splits you can't reduce the corrupt to something lower than 1 per target. Reducing devouring darkness to 2 corrupts was a good change. I think corrupts are in an alright spot right now other than sand savant. Winds of disenchantment is very powerful, but only really dangerous with a coordinated group that stacks tightly and moves in melee as a group to body block for the spellbreaker so they don't get interrupted. The only skill split you can do as far as corrupts is lowering break enchantments to 2 boons removed per target down from 3, but that's pretty low impact.

    Stealth: Reduce durations of all stealth granting skills, traits, and combos by 1s except veil. There's nothing enjoyable about hunting down a deadeye that can remain in stealth permanently, portal other players into structures, and remove revealed at will. There's also nothing enjoyable about being zerged down by 50 people who are all in stealth- the fight is either over instantly or within a minute since you can't recover from losing half your group to a stealth bomb. While a good stealth engage should be a strong advantage, right now it's an i-win.

    Stability vs CC Is actually in an okay spot right now. I think you guys had the right idea with reducing Stand Your Ground! from 5 stacks to 3, but you need to give access to aoe stability to other classes as well. An easy change would be to trail of anguish, bump its stability up to 2 stacks from 1. This would reduce reliance on firebrands and force players to cycle stability access from other classes.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hello @Cal Cohen.3527 ;

    Other than my 100% agreement with @Turkeyspit.3965 the only thing I want to add is that you should really take a look at this poll on stealth, it has one of the few reasonable discussions here about how to make it better for PvP modes, including WvW.

    But all I gotta say is a lot of my 2 guilds have not played much, at all, in the last month (other than Whiskey farming the Halloween labyrinth as is tradition). You got your work cut out to pull us back. Good luck.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    The holy Trinity and its necessity

    Alot of the issues that have come from the expansions extend far further than people like the admit, and fewer people understand. Originally in guild wars 2 everyone was DPS. There were no true supports and there were no tanks, merely the notion everyone could bring boons and buffs to the group and from there you just dps and this worked in the earliest stages of the game because back then it was far less technical. Over time however the game has changed and so has the community and it's players and at this point I Feel like The "holy trinity" is the only way to fix the pluthra of issues we have now.

    Tanks counter Melee dps, Melee counters healers and ranged while ranged/healers often times counters tanks. This kind of give and take allowed for specific classes to have more toys to play with without being a huge leap ahead of people. At the time of writing this the game has attempted to stick at its roots with a very tiny toe in the waters of the trinity system. We have a few "supports" if you can call them that and I guess you could say we have "Tanks", in reality they aren't and they don't hold a candle to what those roles offer and what they do. For example we wouldn't have issues with a firebrands and scourges if we had true tanks, a tank could in theory wade through all the aoe spam and lock down the enemy with minor support. This then means if we had multiple tanks in a group their job would be to hold the front-line while our Dps did what they were good at, killing our hated foe. Unfortunately for us its all about Deeps right now, you have to bring hardcore cleave and tons of AoE dps with conditions and boons galor because that is how the game has been designed to this point.

    Now removing that is a good start but what comes after that? We've been here once before when HoT released and A-net decided that it might be a good Idea to fix Condition damage, and look where that has left us. We need roles and specific niches for our spec's and even perhaps for Core; So this way the team can build a class or say future E-specs to work accordingly to what we currently have. When everyone can do massive dps everyone will immediately go for the massive dps, I have tons of friends who won't touch this game because it is as it is now. Archeage Unchained has been released and frankly its so refreshing because it has the kind of systems to make a tank or make a healer and be good at that role without having to do dps. I feel like its a good example of what the Trinity can be when its not enforced because you can really run whatever you want, but each class you create has a role its designed for. Guild wars 2 doesn't need to make a Hard trinity system, It can have a soft trinity but it needs to fully delve in and design the game around a soft trinity for it to work. The game itself would benefit because the dev's would know how to go forward, right now its like walking on egg-shells if they make something new it could become inflated and overpowered because of what core has ONTOP OF what it offers (Firebrand is a good example.)

    WvW and it's glaring problems

    Not long ago I made a post about the direction I FEEL WVW SHOULD TAKE. It is entirely my opinion but I would and STRONGLY urge A-net to at least give it a good read, consider it. Because I address a lot of the issues in the post, and even though a good few of the vocal minority bashed it the point still stands as a fact. The game mode was intended to be guild wars 2's and A-net's answer to RvR and WvW fails to fill that role from its very foundation. It doesn't know what it want's to be and this is an issue that extends to the game at large and is not limited to this one set of issues. We need more of a reason to do things (Outside of rewards) we need more nuance and flare to the game mode, we need more energy and life plugged into the realms of WvW. As of now there is no tactics, no thought or even any real need to do much more than face-roll your keyboard and spam aoe faster than the other guy. Our tactics now are ===>Scrapped stealth====> Mess portal ===> Scourge/firebrand AoE===> WoD===> Herald's use hammer to apply what preassure you can. (This last one is subjective.) That is what everyone is running, and its boring to all of the lowest pits of the darkest depths.

    Ever since you added the warclaw roaming has become difficulty, and with all the gimmicky one shot builds out there you run into a lot of the same classes. They are the same ones within the zerg meta. With mirages, thieves and soul-beasts making up a good bulk of the rest with maybe a few Rev's and the occasional Weaver but other specs and even core classes? Nah. Because they can't compete with the amount of stuff the other specs offer, and often times are just downright inferior to the specs they would be competing with. I don't want warclaw removed because I enjoy having a mount, But I do want roaming to recover and the quickest way to do that in my opinion? Equalize the classes specs, and core to be on equal footing in terms of what they bring and how they bring it. Each spec and trait-line should have something in it that people want and is good. They can't have all of them but if all of the traits are good and all the traitlines work, then it would make deciding harder and open theory crafting further as it would mean its you tailoring you character to YOUR preferred playstyle. As it stands now its Conform to the meta or GTFO because if you go off meta, even if you are skilled you will have to work a billion times harder than an average player running a competitive meta-build.

    Give this a good read, tons of Ideas about the game mode within.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88775/world-vs-world-reborn#latest

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    Only simple change needed: Revert all buffs/nerfs back to when PoF was first launched. It was more balanced then and there were far less broken/improper working skills.

    No matter what changes are implemented, it won't work. The mode has and always will be dictated by numbers. People running in spamming their skills, or ranged spamming their skills will obliterate a smaller group. There is absolutely no way around this. All those balance changes implemented, may (and take may with a grain of salt), have a difference in a small group setting (aka PvP mode), of 5 players or less.

    For example, reducing the rangers longbow attack by 14% or whatever it was, makes no difference when 99% of their attacks won't penetrate a zerg. Altering the way a Scourge shade works, either by giving a 10 target cap in 1 spot, or 10 targets over a large area won't matter if the group you're fighting has more people doing the same thing. People just have to accept the fact that the only balance in WvW that matters is population. Skill alterations do not matter. A larger group spamming 1 into a smaller group when there is mega lag will (you guessed it), give the larger group the win.

    Another thing; PvE balance doesn't matter at all. Anyone can take any class in any build with any weapon and armor set and rip through 99% of the content with ease. Balancing WvW around with raids in mind is a battle that is already lost but also completely unnecessary.

    What does make a difference though is when Anet tries to alter a skill and in turn breaks how it functions.. then leaves it for weeks or even months; that affects game play.

    Just roll back all those changes to when PoF was launched and leave them, don't touch them again.

  • PoV from a player that primarily plays in zergs.

    Short term: The ten targets on shades still seems to be an outlier. They can be punished more in melee range which is nice but they still feel oppressive. almost everything else is very powerful but feels like it needs to be that way because of he overall power level as mentioned.

    Long term balance: I enjoyed the feel of WvW the most during the base game. It wasn't a "toilet bowl" meta were no one died, it wasn't full pirate ship and some guilds ran gank squads to focus casters in the back line. I probably have nostalgia glasses on but the time to kill felt less punishing as well.

  • Matt H.6142Matt H.6142 Member ✭✭✭

    This may be more of a PvE note, but to read that there's a gap of like 10 times the damage between top players and bottom players, is part of your challenge to shrink that gap? What do you think of some of these tricks like jumping or stowing weapons during attacks that the top players can take advantage of that most players wouldn't think to do?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Playing this game i find there too many classes who lack effects and you have classes who simply have all of the effects on high out put. I suggest adding in ways to lets all classes build for any roll in a wvw environment and cut back on the classes whom are able to already do every thing in the game at a high out put.

    Any thing out side of that suggestion i would get into talking about the ele class and ele class alone and i do not think this is the places for that class aimed suggestions.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    There’s to much of everything in low CD, wich creates the massive boonstacking, aoe spam and high damage builds with low risk gameplay...

    And IMO the reason that sucks is due to the effect, not the low cd. If anything, there is too high cd on too many skills.

    GW2 differ itself from the archaic MMOs of casting a fireball while stationary on a minutes cd in that it has fast, responsive combat. Attack, dodge, attack. The enemy use a skill, you block it. The enemy put condi on, you cleanse.

    But over the years with all the durations slapped on and skills doing more and more at the same time, the skills have become bloated. You could half the duration and effects of almost everything and cut cd.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Cronos.6532Cronos.6532 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    Please add Cannon Blueprints back to the game, but balance them. People want more siege weapons, but cannon blueprints were a little OP. People voted to remove them because there was no "We want cannon blueprints, but please nerf them" option.

    signature

  • Don't want to post a long monologue, as I tend to get lost in the point I'm trying to make, but to state simply, I feel that in regards to WvW skill balance, every profession should have viable playstyles that offer enough counter-play options so as not to have one profession/specialization completely dominate a particular role, (or one profession spec dominating several roles, like we see in raiding) which shoves out other playstyles that could compete in that role. As has been mentioned, boons and condis being so prevalent on top of many singular skills being too frontloaded leads to difficulty in balancing a competitive environment, and I feel that's what make it feel like a desired playstyle is great to play.

    Stated differently, I'd like to see profession specs fulfill certain roles (dps, bunker, bomber, etc.) differently in a way that doesn't lead to one spec being the only go to choice for a particular role, while each having sufficient trade-offs to allow for skillful counter-play. One thing I also saw mentioned that I agree with is determining the "time-to-kill".

    In regards to WvW itself as just some things to bring up; I feel - as has also been stated earlier in this thread - that there needs to be more reward incentives that are more centered around actual meaningful participation as a player, rather than participation only for pips and reward tracks. While the rewards we have are nice, I recall that originally, winning objectives in WvW translated to bonuses earned for one's server or "world". It'd be cool to have both, especially once the Alliance system rolls out.

    Edge of the Mist has also fallen by the wayside due to the pip reward system, as there isn't much reason to play when you aren't getting as much rewards for doing nearly the same thing you would be in normal WvW. I hardly see anyone on it when I play, although it does make for a good environment to teach other players the basics of playing in WvW as a result.

    Sorry if what I said was either vague or convoluted, but thanks for reading! Looking forward to see what changes are to come!

    • projectile hate needs toning down, can be done with a nerf to bubbles and blocks so they absorb set number of projectiles
    • skills that hit 5 enemies or more must not do more than X damage on each target (can crit for more ofc)
    • boon spam needs toning down, specially sharing boons
    • boon corrupt needs toning down
    • condi spam needs toning down
    • stealth spam needs toning down
    • more classes need to be included in the "meta"
    • AOE healing from skills needs toning down, going back to water field blasting
    • remove downed state skills + lower downed state health
    • skills with 120-180 range need a dmg buff, some more than others
    • make stability a non corruptible effect, reduce duration
  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    There’s to much of everything in low CD, wich creates the massive boonstacking, aoe spam and high damage builds with low risk gameplay...

    And IMO the reason that sucks is due to the effect, not the low cd. If anything, there is too high cd on too many skills.

    GW2 differ itself from the archaic MMOs of casting a fireball while stationary on a minutes cd in that it has fast, responsive combat. Attack, dodge, attack. The enemy use a skill, you block it. The enemy put condi on, you cleanse.

    But over the years with all the durations slapped on and skills doing more and more at the same time, the skills have become bloated. You could half the duration and effects of almost everything and cut cd.

    With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

    In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

    IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

    Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Outlier: Professions/specs that rely on summons such as mesmer or renegade will always be at a disadvantage in zergs. They need the dmg reduction from PvE. And be, not necessarily uninterruptable, but moderately usable against 20+ enemies.

    I don't know if they need damage reduction to all effects because that would majorly affect roaming but at a glance I can see Retaliation being a huge issue when targeting a stacked group. Should minions be immune to, or take much less damage, from Retal?

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @GrahamW.5397 said:

    @shiri.4257 said:
    One side argues there are too many boons. another argues that there are too many strips. what a giant clown fiesta of gamers we have.

    There are both too many strips and too many boons. You nerf boon uptime without hitting strips and then strips become completely out of control and the kitten pirateship meta thats happening right now gets even worse.

    This is a faulty statement. The relation between boons and strips isnt a positive/negative scaled one. I.e. you lower one side, the other side will rise, and vice versa. The problem is in the vice versa. It's mostly true one way, but not the other way around. When you lower the power of boon stripping/corruption, etc., the "scale" indeed tips, and boons will even go more out of control (until some kind of a saturation point). But the other way around will behave differently: When you nerf the power of applying boons, the need of strips will also go down, cause if you try to strip a player that doesn't have boons it's useless and you will even be punished (casttime, cooldown, resources, lack of alternative skill in slot, etc.) for it.

  • Allow multiboxing in wvw again if the characters are on the same server, alternatively allow multiboxing in obsidian sanctum :)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

    In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

    IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

    Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.

    Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

    In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

    IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

    Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.

    Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

    Just run 2 holos and spam

    Ez pz

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

    In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

    IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

    Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.

    Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

    Just run 2 holos and spam

    Ez pz

    Did i say spam?
    I meant skillfully rotate

  • completely aside from all ideas and thoughts about the WvW-Balance that have been stated and suggested here, i´ve got one BIG point that (theoretically) would make it much easier for ANet to balance WvW in general.
    DON´T rely too much only on the forums. Instead: PLAY WvW yourself. And with "play" i don´t mean, going into WvW, spending a few hours and then leave again.
    --> play WvW (and WvW only!) over a long period of time (meaning months, expierience multiple relinks, different matchups and so on) at a daily basis
    --> join the respective communities of every (and with every in mean: EVERY) server and actually SEE what´s going on in WvW, HEAR the voices of the active WvW-players
    --> SEE it all with your own eyes, see the issues that are adressed, feel the imbalances that currently exist in WvW
    --> compare the rewards you get for playing WvW intensively with the rewards you would get in the same time from playing only PvE/sPvP
    --> don´t forget that WvW is over 80% a large-scaled PvP-Mode. balancing this should be priority number one.
    --> think about what balance actually means and which factors are involved to define if a mode is balanced or not. this already starts in terms of player-counts (including differences in timezones), goes on with the choice of classes (as i already stated earlier, in the current state 10/18 possible classes, core builds not included, are absolutely not useful for large-scaled fights, and some only under certain conditions), choice of skills (the latest patch intended to increase build diversity, but achieved the exact opposite)
    --> make EVERY specialization effective in a zerg by giving it a unique purpose in zerg construction (currently there are too many skills on too low classes and too many classes with too less effectivity).
    -->keep in mind, that a huge amount of WvW-players are playing WvW only, and many of those (me included) just don´t care for any PvE-Content (besides events maybe). don´t let PvE influence WvW in any way, these 2 modes are completely different in ANY aspect and are (and should never be) related to each other.

  • Please bring back the old Signet of Inspiration. Chrono has been nearly Impossible to play to any useful capacity in group WvW. In fact, Mesmer in general is in a really bad spot for WvW past roaming/havocing. SoI doesn’t have to be as strong, and we don’t need the trait allowing us to use a minor SoI on illusion summon. How about everyone receives boons on the chrono at a 50% duration or something?

    Also the lack of having a self-shatter and no distort skill without using CS or a traited signet really cucks us. I’d say you can either bring back self-shatter or if you simply make clones more survivable in WvW so we have an opportunity to use shatters that would work too

  • Char.4209Char.4209 Member ✭✭

    @Gamander.7269 said:

    @Char.4209 said:
    Giving a tempest shout groupstability (like on aftershock) would make it another good competitor for the support position.

    Interesting. That would make heal tempest meta if not completely overpowered, considering how much healing this class can put out.

    maybe, but Firebrand has still more stability, aegis spam, reflection bubbles, resistance and pulls

  • Without going in to so much depth as this thread already covers, I think it's player skill which should be rewarded most.

    There are many traits out there that do not invoke skill. The automatic invulnerability traits like Elixir S and Lesser Endure Pain just provides a low-effort escape while not requiring any activation or critical timing.

    More curious is why many classes do not have access to boon removal, thus why scourges are so desirable. Boons such as Retaliation are far more overpowering than they should be. Some groups easily run permanent up-time of retaliation, which to any class that puts out frequent (usually low) damage attacks or AoE take significant damage, all while the enemy effectively does nothing for it. Being heavily punished for attacking leaves you in a situation of not wanting to attack. One option would be to spread boon removal to more classes or another to lower the effect of retaliation. Perhaps even change retaliation from a boon to a Guardian specific AoE buff, so players would at least know who to target to remove it.

    Lastly, the skills that can fully restore a players health such as Defiant Stance, Infuse Light or even the instant resurrection skills. While these can be interrupted if you're lucky, there's nothing more disheartening than a close fight that results in one player going from down/almost down back to 100% health again. If you also happen to be playing on a condi character, you've no control over the conditions already stacked on them, so they inevitably recover to 100%.

    Anyway, that's a bit of a shortlist. There's plenty of desires/wishes/ideas but start with the basics imo.

  • The issue is that there are so many CC’s in the game that it’s impossible to have a large scale fight without becoming a ping pong ball 99% of the time. That’s why we need stability, and then because we have to have lots of stability, there needs to be corrupts to get rid of the stability.

    The source of everything boils down to the numerous abilities that CC...it’s a big problem and it’s not an easy fix. The only way to solve such an issue is putting limitations on CC themselves (like the diminishing returns on CC in gw1) which in itself creates other issues.

  • What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed?

    In all great competitive video games, you are rewarded for making key tactical decisions. I think of the top MOBAs, and even of GW1. When you snare, or stun, or dodge those effects, the result is meaningful. You can get that kill, capture that one point; produce a clip worth sharing across the Internet.

    But GW2 is a game of escape hatches. And I understand why: there's a ton of CC in the game, and CC is powerful, so Stability had to be made. At some point (pre-release) the damage formula didn't feel good, so classes needed invuln skills just to stay alive in PvP. It's far more accessible to just drop AoEs, spin your reaper scythe and get dem kills, and sadly it's far too effective.

    I can't go into some tldr about what exactly should be changed, but try to takeaway this:

    • Immobilizing someone should keep them immobilized unless they have specific skills or a class that should counter it. (thieves are slippery) A successful Necro dagger 3 should be rewarded with an opponent just stuck, perhaps in a well.
    • Mesmer and Ele are light classes, and yet are very hard to kill simply because of evade or invuln frames. It isn't fun to fight them, and I don't think it's fair that a mesmer can very easily stomp with a distortion.
    • What would happen if you revisited the dodge mechanic? Everyone knows it isn't a true dodge: you can dodge into a corner to avoid a boss's attack that "actually hit" you. And that's fine! But could you remove some of the dodge frames at the end? Do some internal testing to see just how much evasion time you get from one dodge, it's actually kind of silly.
  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I forgot to mention, please bring Edge of the mists into the fold and make it replace one of the existing alpine border-lands for spice of life. That maps is amazing and has all the stuff that used to make WvW fun. Its a shame that such a lovely map is un-used and with gliding and the mount it would be even more fun. Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

  • Balthazzarr.1349Balthazzarr.1349 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    This appears to be heading towards the typical epic fail... just sayin

    Primarily due to the already plethora of negativity in here. Why not come up with less of that and a lot more good suggestions instead of rehashing the same old from years gone by??

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Balthazzarr.1349Balthazzarr.1349 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other than boredom. No wxp, no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭

    yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

  • My commentary:

    Reduce the amount of Condi spam and cleanse appropriately. Move the PvP split for some skills/traits into WvW to reduce the power level.

    I'm in favor of reducing the boon uptime/stacks as well, HOWEVER, I also think target caps should be increased in WvW. For instance, Warrior Shouts and Phalanx Strength: they currently are 5 target cap. Since WvW is both small scale and large scale combat these would function better with a 10 target cap if not more.

    I'd prefer to go back to no target cap (I miss those days), but I also fully understand why it is there now. I just think target caps should be revisited after condi, power, and boon spam is reduced. Part of the Pirate Ship meta is because of stacking on the tag in hopes that 45 of the 50 man zerg wont get hit by AoEs. If target caps were increased or removed in WvW then the Pirate Ship meta would lessen several degrees.

    I think removing the target cap would work well if power levels, condi spam, and boon spam were toned down enough.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other

    than boredom.

    Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

    No wxp,

    Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

    no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Balthazzarr.1349Balthazzarr.1349 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other

    than boredom.

    Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

    No wxp,

    Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

    no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

    wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    They had removed regular exp(from all wvw maps) not wxp from eotm...

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other

    than boredom.

    Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

    No wxp,

    Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

    no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

    wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

    According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

    The rate and value is decreased.

    Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • Balthazzarr.1349Balthazzarr.1349 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other

    than boredom.

    Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

    No wxp,

    Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

    no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

    wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

    According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

    The rate and value is decreased.

    Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

    Back in the day.... but they changed that as far as I know

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!