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Let's Talk About WvW Balance

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  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other

    than boredom.

    Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

    No wxp,

    Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

    no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

    wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

    According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

    The rate and value is decreased.

    Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

    Back in the day.... but they changed that as far as I know

    See this: and while @XenesisII.1540 isnt infallible, he is usually correct about such things.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    They had removed regular exp(from all wvw maps) not wxp from eotm...

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Exp was removed from wvw/eotm in the april 19 2016 patch, which a massive amount of changes were also made to the game( for wvw links rewards tracks stability changes).
    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-19-2016

    Exp was replaced with more frequent drops of tomes of knowledge in wvw rank up chest and reward tracks.
    Wxp was lowered in eotm at some point if I remember that right, you also earn less reward track points, and no pips in eotm which pretty much chased away everyone back to wvw then.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Balthazzarr.1349Balthazzarr.1349 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Balthazzarr.1349 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Or bring it in as a fifth map that appears when specific conditions are met~

    It does. When there are queues, people go there. But here is the great thing: You can go there ANYTIME!!

    There is nothing stopping you from playing this map. Enjoy!

    You get nothing from playing in eotm other

    than boredom.

    Well that would be in the eye of the beholder. The poster I was replying to said it was a great place.

    No wxp,

    Incorrect. You get WxP. And reward track progress.

    no pips etc. Not exactly a useful place to go to.

    Well, that’s about rewards. If that is their motivation then I guess you are right.

    wxp in eotm??? When did they change that back? The rewards you get in eotm aren’t the same... unless they changed that again as well.

    According to the Wiki, yes. I can easily be wrong.

    The rate and value is decreased.

    Most people went there to increase their Normal XP and leveled toons there.

    Back in the day.... but they changed that as far as I know

    See this: and while @XenesisII.1540 isnt infallible, he is usually correct about such things.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    They had removed regular exp(from all wvw maps) not wxp from eotm...

    ahhh ok got it.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

    Any other Chrono fans wanna chime in and let him know what having your class destroyed really feels like?

    Side note, I roam on DH and FB all the time and it’s faceroll easy to be successful. This is a you problem, not a design problem sorry.

  • Tuna Bandit.3786Tuna Bandit.3786 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    All I ask is caution on implementing changes to classes. Not for Balance sake, that needs to be done, but to prevent introduction of bugs.
    Since the change where reapers cannot be healed in Reaper Shroud for example, I often cannot get out of combat at all. Have to run half a map to get out of combat on both my Reapers.

    (Yes I reported the bug, and it's been looked at - but still... playing specially WvW is a drag now... how often a squad leaves me behind because I - and my fellow reapers are sooooo late in being able to mount uo)

    So... balance changes, sure, but test it and retest it before you bring it out.

    This issue has proven to be hard to fix and is ongoing for months now. Please take that in consideration for any changes to any class are made, to prevent such Showstoppers to happen to other classes.

    A balance change should never make a class completely unusable due to a hard to fix bug introduced.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Aizza.4950 said:

    @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

    Any other Chrono fans wanna chime in and let him know what having your class destroyed really feels like?

    Side note, I roam on DH and FB all the time and it’s faceroll easy to be successful. This is a you problem, not a design problem sorry.

    Not fooling anyone acting as if Chronomancer, or the Mesmer profession, didn’t need adjusting... Or pretending this class isn’t still powerful.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It needed nerfing, not massacred and left with one legit spec which everyone is still calling to also get massacred to the ground.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    With how the current skills work u could never slap the CD into half, on some elites u could do that probably, but not in most of skills, I would just macro everything since it was available every 5-8 sec... holo and beast are quite busted due how anets wants them to carry its users, can u imagine half of the cd with the current balance... that would be far more unskilled that we have now, imagine a pd condi DD with half of the CD.. it would be a pure carry class... more than it is once unmaster how lame it is to get carried witthbhow easy it’s to interrupt targets with just autos...

    In group it would be nosense spam w/o worrying wath is happening with the field.... it would be pretty bad, it is already bad due the game is overloaded with aoe.

    IF game was more about visually notice what is happening and most skills were single I could see Some CD”s reduced, but now how lame gameplay actually is.

    Gw2 is already labeled to be the pvp mmo for the incompetent, don’t make it worse.

    Didnt say half the cd, said half the duration and cut the cd. And when I say duration, of course I'm talking skills which gives 15s boons on 50s -> 7s boons on 30s or similar. Or AoE fields that last 10s on 30s cd -> 5s on 25s cd or something. Not reducing holo shockwave to 5s cd for the lolz.

    Oh in that case I fully agree :p

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Although most has been said by more experienced players I want to share my personal opinions on this topic.

    Before the main balance of professions there are two struggles in wvw. The infamous "obstructed" (especially in specific areas), the worth of defending an object and the linking/relinking of servers and their populations.

    In spvp class stackin, match manipulation and afk players are some of the problems.

    In class balance I can add more but like I said mpst has been said already. Let me cut it short.

    -Druid needs a buff along with chrono.

    • Renegade needs a serious rework for it to be viable in pvp and wvw.
    • Revenant Ventari needs some work to be a viable support in wvw and pvp.
    • There are several weapons and utility skills/elite skills that need attention. Most of them are really useless and havent been reworked by quite some time. The game changed, they did not.
    • Overtuned specs should be nerfed. They are beyond control.
    • One shot builds shall no longer exist in spvp and get tuned down in wvw along with some cheesy builds.
    • Dmg, both power and condi, should be lowered. Healing should be balanced accordingly.
    • Sieges should be buffed. Some of them barely tickles.
    • Rewards should be adjusted. Pvp feels fine yet wvw needs some love.
    • Special events are needed. Dual class week or no downstate week were all really fun actually.
    • I am sorry to say that but game needs new content and new profession abilities (elite specs, dual class options or something like that).

    But most importantly you have corrected the most problematic one; communication. For years gw2 community had been yelling to deaf ears. It is really nice to have a communication line with devs. So long we have been neglected. Thank you.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Acheron.4731 said:
    Nerf Mesmer

    Nah, they need major buffs because that class was “destroyed”. We need to greatly buff both power and (those really weak) condition builds in a major way.

  • Hi Cal,

    Thanks for asking our opinions, and I look forward to more open communication in the future.

    The two issues that I currently see are:

    • Too many boons
    • Too much damage

    A team can literally steamroll over an entire organized group in 5 seconds flat, even if the team that lost the fight had boons and time to prepare for the fight. I understand that in these situations there is a skill difference between the two groups, but it still doesn't make for a fun fight when they are finished in under a minute. I have been on both the giving and receiving end of the steamroll and honestly neither of them are very fun.

    I know this is quite general, but I feel that with the powercreep of both damage and boons over the subsequent expansions, WvW hasn't bee very well balanced overall.

  • Loke.1429Loke.1429 Member ✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    Please let me fake some interest and pretend to listen to you because I see less playtime because I dont listen to you and your legitimate concerns regarding bad gameplay. Yes! Lets make everyone perma-stealth, then they wont notice that there are less enemies because then they could be anywhere. Omg I'm so smart, this will make the game soo good! Oh wait, I can do even better. Lets give all classes almost constant invulnerability and evade, becuase then they wont nag me with that balance-what-her-face thing that I don't like to work on, because they wont be able to tell whats going on. Err.. my bosses tell me I can only do it for those new classes that they pay for, oh well, should be awesome

  • I'll try to add my thoughts:

    • Classes like Firebrand, Scourge or Spellbreaker are natural choices for zerg fights and will (and should) stay relevant in the future. I can understand, however, that players get bored with that meta after 2+ years without a new expansion. So I'd propose frequent events that mess with the game balance for a limited time. Like No elite specializations or Every day another class is banned or No boons etc. You could use the following feedback for your balance decisions.
    • Regarding the current meta, I see the main problem in Firebrands offering too much, leaving little room for other supports. As @God.2708 wrote, they are heal and prot monk rolled into one. So mb tune down their heal output. The need for an additional dedicated healer/hybrid build would obviously also tone down the offensive power of a zerg. On a side note, DPS builds usually need some sort of trade-off between damage and sustain and I love tweaking a build to my playstyle. This isn't the case for supports, however, because the perfect stat combination exists in Minstrel's. So I'd recommend changing/removing Minstrel stats from the game so that a trade-off between heal, boon duration and durability becomes necessary.
    • Of all the zerg DPS classes, I enjoy Weaver the least. One reason is that Ele relies on fast reaction times and therefore suffers more in high ping environments (at least give Lava Font a cast time so I know when i have casted it while lagging). But the main reason is retaliation. It is usually the main source of incoming damage in a large fight, it is unavoidable and caused by the enemy supports (which is ridiculous in itself). It hurts Weaver more than any other class because of the low health pool and the usual distance to your healer, and it especially punishes good positioning of your spells. So please rework retaliation. One idea could be a one-time melee range counter attack when hit.
    • Finally, try to give Mesmer a spot in a zerg again, e.g. with 10 target null field or once again a trait for invulnerable phantasms.
  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aizza.4950 said:

    @Ragnarox.9601 said:
    yea nerf guardian/dh/ and especially FB cause if you play roamer you die 1v1 cause you killed those spec because FB is good in groups and garbage in solo situations. Aegis which is guardian exclusive you gave to other professions. Thats why I am not logging anymore into this game cause you killed my class with every balance update, and I would rather pay for other games cause you lack ppl who actual can balance things out. If you think guard/DH/Fb is good you should do some 1v1 tournaments inside your balance team and you will realize(finally) which class needs shaving in pure dmg but i think I would beat your game balance team with my thief which was never created nor played even with wrong traits and skills.

    Any other Chrono fans wanna chime in and let him know what having your class destroyed really feels like?

    Side note, I roam on DH and FB all the time and it’s faceroll easy to be successful. This is a you problem, not a design problem sorry.

    I am roaming with Condi mirage also, its funny to see ppl melt in 5 secs. Satisfied?

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    Not sure if you consider Edge of the Mists a game mode anymore, but perhaps you can return tickets and other aspects to it - so it's worth playing again? Please leave the mounts and gliding out of it though.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Acheron.4731 said:
    Nerf Mesmer

    Nah, they need major buffs because that class was “destroyed”. We need to greatly buff both power and (those really weak) condition builds in a major way.

    Chono needs mayor buff as it was destroyed... You are showing mirage and at that you are showing jazzman, which is quite good mesmer against non even bronze players or ocational silver player... Those people are there for pve or just started playing the game...

  • @Swagger.1459 said:

    Not fooling anyone acting as if Chronomancer, or the Mesmer profession, didn’t need adjusting... Or pretending this class isn’t still powerful.

    Well I want to refer you to the below post:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    It needed nerfing, not massacred and left with one legit spec which everyone is still calling to also get massacred to the ground.

  • DrClutchMcSwagDaddy.9072DrClutchMcSwagDaddy.9072 Member ✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    Glad to have to aboard @Cal Cohen.2358

    I'm very excited to see the time to kill window addressed.

    Another topic maybe up for discussion would be traits being so valuable that it renders other traits in the same traitline suboptimal or even not usable in comparison.

    Just one example, the scourge grandmaster line. Also, I'm only referring to small-scale (3-8 or 9) and large scale ( 10+) fights here. No 1v1s or 2v2s

    • Sand Savant is too good. Even when it was only 5 targets, the amount of area denial and pressure was just insane. You could make a choke insanely hot for little cost, and this increased your ability to generate downs. Amazing trait.

    • Demonic Lore is good. Necromancers has plentiful access to torment, and this amps that up, and adds some burning. Good damage, but this is dependent on the group you're fighting. If they have heavy firebrands or a scrapper or 2, this trait doesn't add much value to your scourge's ability to do damage. **Why would I take a trait that is only conditionally good? **

    • Feed from Corruption -- the meme counter to purity of purpose. Good trait, but again, suboptimal when it compares to the amount of downs you can generate and the area of damage you can hit with Sand Savant. Why would I take this over the previous 2? This to me almost seems like it could be a Major Master with an ICD built into it.

    Having very strong trait synergies like this is good, as it allows classes to have distinct gameplay and very powerful, defined roles. But by having these insane traits with their massive flex modifications to gameplay leads other playstyles quickly dieing out and become suboptimal.

    I believe looking at the synergies of traitlines classes deemed to be "too good" will (be one of many) answer why those classes are too good, and maybe open some creative ideas on how to address power creep and the time to kill. This could also be a way to really nail down the roles you guys on the balance team want classes to fill in competitive modes.

    Cheers,
    Dr. Clutch McSwagDaddy

    PS, with your big heavy elasticsearch backend -- it would be interesting to query and see what % of players take what traits on each class- If you have that data indexed -- because anyone who has used the Elastic stack knows that's the hardest part 😂

    Edit: @'d the correct account.

  • Fungling.5742Fungling.5742 Member ✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    Just one suggestion that might allow for more flexible balancing of WVW-specific things...

    WVW-only food that can be bought in base. Take away the stat gain and add a utility to it, and design that utility to deal with one or more OP problems that tend to crop up as the WVW meta evolves. Maybe put the utility on a high cooldown, or have the food effect be fully consumed on use (or both). Maybe to discourage its use in blobs or zergs, have the food give off a nova effect that disables that same food for other characters. Rather than worry about tinkering with classes and risking taking away their identity, add counterplay to something OP within the food. If the food itself becomes meta, change it or discontinue selling it.

    Here is purely an example: Let's say that there is a complaint that roamers are able to one-shot you with a rotation of their abilities. Possible solution: anytime you take 10% of your health in damage in one hit, you gain a stack of "desperate escape". At five stacks, you lose the ability to auto-attack but gain stability and superspeed for five seconds (ie: you can run the hell away). Food has the cancellation food-fart nova described above so that it can't be abused by zergs in a large engagement.

    The numbers suggested are arbitrary, and could be buffed or nerfed from week to week. It'd be academic to keep track of what food is being bought and/or triggered, so you could look at stats at the end of the month and figure out what's being used too much or what's not being used enough.

    This could conceivably be anything. Let's say some soulbeast build is out of control. There could be a food that provides damage mitigation against soulbeasts. Maybe there's a build that gets might stacks too quickly. You could proc a fast regeneration of health once per fight if you take three hits from somebody with 20+ stacks of might. Maybe stealth is too much of a problem. There could be a thorns effect for attacks that come from out of stealth.

    And the big thing is that in the end it's just food. If it isn't working out, discontinue it.

  • GaijinGuy.8476GaijinGuy.8476 Member ✭✭✭

    Stun locks suck. There is too much cc going around which is too easily accessed. You use a stun break but then get another cc so you use another stun break but here comes more cc. Even if you have stability, if it is more than one player those stacks are gone instantly, which sucks for professions who do not have a lot of access to it.
    Being immune to cc temporarily (no experienced enough to specify a time) after using a stun break would be nice. Sometime I wonder why I even bother slotting stun breaks.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    -Passive invulns and defensive procs take away skillful play and allow players to get away with stuff that they shouldn't. I would love to see these deleted from every class. They take away the risk factor.

    What skilful play? Part of the reason this game has passive defensive procs is because applying damage is generally so easy (low skilled), especially for certain classes - rev for example. The game even aims for you which is by a long, long way the single most skill lowering thing in this game, strange how people don't complain about that, though I guess not that strange as really it just highlights the reality that no one genuinely interested in skilled gaming is playing GW2, WvW especially and in 2019 especially.

    Then beyond that you would have to remake some classes because they require defensive procs by design (e.g - core engy & scrapper, because there is too much pressure and opportunity cost on the utility/toolbelt skills) or because those procs are there to compensate for slow, clunky skills or subpar damage application, etc. Then of course you have to realize this is a casual themepark MMORPG, not Quake, so you need things like warrior that are more forgiving to play.

    As for the risk factor, on that basis better remove stealth, skills that do damage whilst you evade, high mobility that allows you to disengage as soon as something goes wrong against most classes/builds (the lack of risk vs reward on certain classes/builds in this game in WvW is beyond laughable) and so on.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    Hello everyone,

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    -Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and create unfun tank builds.

    I agree with lots of things said in snipped post, but I bolded that "Minstrel/Traiblazer create unfun tank builds" part because it's a core point of the whole TTK question.

    If I read correctly, an appropriate choice of profession, specializations, gear and rotation enables one-shot builds, which are arguably unfun. But other choices like TB or ministrel would then be unfun as well. First thing : why would they be fun ? My idea : both builds are fun because they're safe. One-shot builds' safety comes from the quick death of foe, while Tanky's come from the fact you can roughly ignore the enemy and still be safe.

    Now, let's think about why it's unfun, about what unfun means. Both options (tanky or one-shot) lead to the same hypothesis. Namely :

    • The build leaves no opportunity to turn tides : one-shot builds ? You're dead with the opening, so you can't do anything. Tanky builds ? You can hit as much as you want, you won't down anyone.
    • Fights drag for too long : one-shot builds are appreciated because they provide very quick fights so that fights won't drag, while tanky builds are despised because they make fights drag longer.

    When you think about it, it's perfectly reversible : "I don't like one-shot builds because the fight is so short that I can't do anything." or "I don't like tanky builds because the fight is so long and I can't do anything."
    That said, these hypothesis have a fundamental difference : the turning tides thing comes mostly from "balance", while the fights drag too much is the question of the intrinsic quality of fights in GW2, and thus the appropriate TTK to aim at.

    So here are the big questions, and I hope I'm not derailing too much the topic by asking them. If so, do feel free to open a new discussion :
    1. Are fights actually fun in GW2 ?
    2. If you're the one to engage a fight, what makes it fun ? What is unfun ? What would make it funnier ?
    3. If you're the one who's engaged, what makes it fun ? What is unfun ? What would make it funnier ?

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Hello everyone,

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    -Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and create unfun tank builds.

    I agree with lots of things said in snipped post, but I bolded that "Minstrel/Traiblazer create unfun tank builds" part because it's a core point of the whole TTK question.

    Incidently a core contradiction since people also say full dps gank builds are the only meta because toughness does nothing - which is the cause for the fast TTK.

    Isnt that weird...

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Hello everyone,

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    -Reduce Trailblazer and Minstrel to tri-stat. Either remove the toughness or the vitality. My wish would be for the toughness to be removed. These sets are too effective and create unfun tank builds.

    I agree with lots of things said in snipped post, but I bolded that "Minstrel/Traiblazer create unfun tank builds" part because it's a core point of the whole TTK question.

    Incidently a core contradiction since people also say full dps gank builds are the only meta because toughness does nothing - which is the cause for the fast TTK.

    Isnt that weird...

    I wouldn't say weird. Surely both statements are voiced often here, not by the same people, yet for more or less the same reasons when you ponder about it.

    So I'd say ironic.

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Short-term

    Bigger fights are dominated by Firebrands and Scourges. There are other good builds too, but those 2 are the most powerful. Short-term goal should be to bring down power level of these two, without ruining their viability in small scale fights.

    Scourge

    What makes them too good:

    • Can hit 10 targets with one skill. This is very powerful and prevents other builds from shining, for example going melee against these monsters is very difficult.

    What to change:

    • Lower the target limit of shade skills to 5.

    Risks:

    • Without massive boon corruption from scourges boon sharing builds could become unstoppable. This risk can be mitigated by addressing boon output of firebrand.
    • Scourge becomes too weak and not played in large scale battles anymore. This risk can be accepted and I dont see it very likely, scourge would still be good.

    Firebrands

    What makes them too good:

    • Great utility
    • Great healing
    • Great condition cleanse
    • Decent CC
    • No other build can bring so much support to the field as Firebrand.

    What to change:

    • Reduce target limit of all tome skills to 3 targets. This will reduce the amount of boons and healing that firebrands are dishing out in large scale battles, but in small scale firebrand support remains strong.
    • Tome_of_Resolve All skills only affect 3 allies
    • Tome_of_Courage All skills only affect 3 allies
    • Tome_of_Justice All skills only affect 3 enemies
    • Valiant Bulwark Replace reflecting with destroying. Projectiles are already weak enough.

    Risks:

    • Groups start to run 2 firebrands/party or 3 man parties, doubling the number of firebrands and reducing build diversity. However this would also reduce the damage output of the group and allow enemy Spellbreakers to close in and remove boons with their elite skill. Its impossible to say which side would win (the one with more firebrands or the one who instead brings Spellbreakers or other offensive builds). Accept the risk.

    Bonus: Warclaw

    • Remove the ability to instantly finish downed enemies. It is simply annoying and removes possibilities for comebacks in fights where it happens.
    • Limit the endurance of the warclaw to only two dodges. They are very difficult to stop as they are.

    Long-Term

    What could the future metagame look like:

    • Melee builds and ranged builds would be more equal.
    • There is more diversity in support builds. Ability to share stability is very important for a good support build as are the abilities to heal and cure conditions. Some support build can be better than others in some aspects.
    • There is more diversity in builds that are able to remove or corrupt boons
    • One shot (literally one shot), builds don't exists in small-scale fights. Bursts builds still exist.
    • It is viable for a groups to focus on either ranged, melee or hybrid. Maybe one group uses firebrands, scourges, elementalists and revenants to deal damage from range and other group uses soulbeasts, reapers, spellbreakers and scrappers to engage the first group in melee.

    How to get there

    Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:

    • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
    • Increase reaper's boon removal
    • Help support tampest support better.
    • Help revenants remove more boons.
    • Consider removing some food effects from wvw. (ascended food).

    Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:

    • Remove reduced duration from Leader of the Pack. Maybe players can find use for stance sharing soulbeast?
    • Restore Spirits Unbound and allow ranger spirits to walk again.
    • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
    • Increase radius on mesmer support mantra skills. Maybe a support mesmer build becomes viable.
    • Increase power of Death Shroud skills. Maybe players start using core necromancer more.
    • Give guardian's valor traitline a powerful supporting grandmaster trait. Maybe this would allow support core guardian to be a thing again.
    • Allow engineer to remove more boons.

    If at all possible, do balance iterations more often.

  • Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:

    • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
    • Increase reaper's boon removal
    • Help revenants remove more boons.

    please not :(

    Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:

    • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
    • Allow engineer to remove more boons.

    please do not buff holo more..
    rifle needs some nerfs not buffs.
    and core engi is not bad - only holo is way too strong. nerf holo and core engi is great again.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    Long ago we had a “Top 5” wishlist for the devs, that MO had been engaged in (on the old forums https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Your-top-5-priorities-for-WvW-Overhaul and reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4akga5/mike_obrien_post_on_wvw_subforum_top_5_priorities/) , and overall I feel it was productive. I’d like to start a similar conversation based off of the recent posts by CMC.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90774/lets-talk-about-wvw-balance

    I’m going to start with a quote from CMC so we can work off of that direction for this thread.

    The quote...

    “Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta”

    In this thread I would like the community to come up with a list of your top 5 “ biggest pain points” and how you would tackle them.

    I’d like to suggest that we make this thread as friendly to read as possible for the devs, and to make sure we can give EVERYONE a voice without arguing, so I’m going to lay out some posting guidelines that I feel would be helpful.

    • Your post should be 1 page only.
    • Keep your thoughts and ideas clear, concise and constructive.
    • No arguing. Do not bash any ideas. Let people post their feedback and let it be even if you don’t agree.
    • Post only YOUR 5 ideas. Do NOT quote anyone UNLESS it is to add on to their particular idea.
    • Keep all your ideas based off of the “biggest pain points”... Those are the MAJOR problems surrounding competitive play. Example of what not to post... “This 1 skill hits too hard, please nerf this 1 skill”. Better example... “Damage output needs to be toned down by doing XYZ”.

    With that said, here are my 5 Biggest Pain Points....

    1- TTK is way too low. Increase base https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health to combat power creep inside of competitive modes. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-undoing-old-split-changes-and-eliminating-skill-splitting. Not in that thread, but a global buff to base health or vitality could be given when entering the mists.

    2- Balancing Conditions for the entire game... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29999/let-s-also-fix-up-the-condi-system-before-we-neuter-professions-more. Not in the thread, but inside of the mists the team could use player Break Bars or an immunity timer that prevents a player from getting HARD CCed in succession. Like a 10s immunity timer.

    3- Stealth revamp... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60005/stealth-rework-2-0

    4- Visual improvements for competitive play... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67283/i-would-like-to-discuss-visual-tells-for-wvw

    5- Getting offensive AoEs under control... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dont get me wrong, im happy as well to see everyone think along on how to fix this game

    But give Them breathing room to make changes instead of throwing in Infinite ideas and them mindblown

  • Mordayn.6198Mordayn.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    Let's take a look at boon output, condition output and conversion interplay issues that are plaguing wvw. When the chrono nerf to boon output came a few months back it was mentioned that the goal was to limit the output of boons any specific class could generate to allow other classes a place in the boon meta. This was done to chrono but other classes were left in broken OP states.

    Firebrand is the main offender at the moment because they generate group Aegis, Might, Protection, Quickness, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Swiftness, and Vigor. The initial statement on boons when chrono was nerfed was that boon output for individual classes was going to be toned down but this class was never addressed. The main problem with this class having so much access to boons is (like the old chrono) it squeezes out room for any other boon generating supports because it does it better than anything else can.

    Support scrapper has a part in this as well due to Purity of Purpose trait. With this one trait every cleansed condition is converted to a boon. This gives scrapper access to all boons output for their subgroup dependent on what the incoming conditions are. Converting a cleansed condition to a boon is way too overpowered when in a large scale wvw setting.

    Scourge adds to the Support scrapper issue because it converts boons to conditions as well as outputting a ton of aoe conditions. So you have the interaction of Firebrand putting boons on the group initially. Then Scourge corrupts those boons to conditions while also outputting additional conditions. Then you have support scrapper converting all those conditions into boons again.

    The dynamic from these 3 classes has made them overpowered to the point in the boons/condi/conversion meta that if you don't run this comp you lose the fight before it started. Group comp for any kind of organized group is mandatory these 3 classes and the last 2 spots in the 5 man are usually an additional scourge, herald dps, warrior or weaver dps.

    No 3 classes should dominate the meta like this. They need to be brought down for other build options to be considered viable. This means limiting what boons are able to be output by these classes. Firebrand needs a rework that limits the boons they are able to output that makes them comparable to other support options. IMO Aegis, Protection, Regen, Retaliation, Stability, Vigor and Swiftness is all they should be able to output making them a thematically defensive oriented boons generator and allowing room for more offensive boon generators of Might, and quickness.

    As for the Scrapper and Scourge part in this. Instead of converting boons to specific conditions and conditions to specific boons they should generate a limited list of boons/conditions randomly. This change would limit the boon/condition/conversion meta to specific conditions and specific boon generation. I'm not sure which conditions/boons specifically should be used in this conversion chart but thematically it would make sense for scourge to be converting boons into non damaging conditions like weakness, vulnerability, slow etc. As for the Scrapper side of this. Since the condition spam generated by this interaction would be brought down by the change to firebrand boons output and scourge condition output it wouldn't be as bad. For balance these need to be looked at and limited to bring them in line with other support classes.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    Keeping this about skill balance, hoping we get a separate thread about game play as well, we could have a whole threads on maps and about downstate. Boon share and corruption need to be balanced. That said we have too much boon share. Right now the rule for the most part is size matters. And it should be in the regards to damage output but there should be a cap on benefits from a larger group. So if boon corruption is further reduced, so should be boon share. Potentially a cap on boons and/or an increase in cooldowns.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/Civ6/CU/AoC/NW

  • Mordayn.6198Mordayn.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    Honestly it would all be solved by restricting what boons/condi were able to be generated through conversions. I'm leaning toward them being restricted to only generating defensive boons and non damaging conditions. That would mean their initial purpose of stripping/cleansing remains but takes down the damage buffs and damaging condition generation that makes them overpowered in the current meta.

    The main problem in the current meta is while they are the best at stripping boons and cleansing conditions this is mostly a problem because they are also doing way too much damage and buffing way to much damage as a byproduct. Limiting the damage portion of this meta would be a great first step in bringing them into balance.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:

    • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
    • Increase reaper's boon removal
    • Help revenants remove more boons.

    please not :(

    Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:

    • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
    • Allow engineer to remove more boons.

    and core engi is not bad - only holo is way too strong. nerf holo and core engi is great again.

    Core engi is one of, if not the weakest core spec in the game, so is basically terrible. Go see thief, warrior, etc for really strong core specs and even most other core specs like necro, ele, ranger, etc are stronger than core engy. Core engy is the poster boy for being left behind by powercreep that has obsoleted most of its design (kits, projectiles, combo fields, etc), it is so pitiful it basically needs a rework.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let’s stay on topic folks. The devs seemed to appreciate that old thread, so let’s replicate that feedback for them in a clean, easy to read and organized manner.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How do you put together a top 5 list and not have balancing boons on it? The balance thread practically has every suggestion post mentioning it.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • My suggestions:

    1. Remove https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant
    2. Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devouring_Darkness to affect only 3 targets and on smaller radius.
    3. Tune down firebrand support
    4. Remove evasion from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Assault_(soulbeast)
  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing to also keep in mind with the aoe spamming, necros used wells as their main source of aoe bombing before PoF, but with shades they were essentially given a free pass of 3 additional wells while still using the old wells. Shades also have 3 charge at less than half the cooldown of a regular well(these have a high cooldown for a reason, a reason that seems to have been thrown out of the window some time ago), and enough power built into the skill that would typically be a utility skill(and therefore would replace a well slot), damage cripple torment traits affected and shroud abilities.

    Tempest essentially had this too with overloads, but it was point blank aoes, had to wait 6s in attunement to cast, and also locked you out entirely from the attunement for 20s, which in turn locked them out of other aoes, since elementalist are aoe heavy based on weapons not utility skills like necros.

    Anet really needs to keep trade offs in mind when creating new skills and mechanics.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭

    I hope one day we could have back this such fun and long fight :(

  • Sviel.7493Sviel.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    ...we want the power level to come down.

    This was really all that had to be said to get me interested in WvW again.

    Since I don't usually partake in large-scale fights, I can't really comment on those. Also, I'm way out of date since I've been sporadic since before PoF dropped...so I'll leave small scale to others as well.

    But I will say that WvW-specific, objective related issues must also be on the table. Things like how easily can a class disengage and how often? How difficult is it to bring them down in order to secure an area? How much projectile reflect uptime is healthy to have on a single character (thus, preventing disables)?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    Iteratively adjust the power levels of known builds. Example:

    • Restore revenant hammer #2 Coalescence of Ruin
    • Increase reaper's boon removal
    • Help revenants remove more boons.

    please not :(

    Also give players a change to spawn new builds by making large changes to skills/traits that have potential, but are not quite there. Dont be afraid to take risks. Examples:

    • Make engineer rifle stronger. Faster "cast times" to all skills and add evasion for the leap skill.
    • Allow engineer to remove more boons.

    and core engi is not bad - only holo is way too strong. nerf holo and core engi is great again.

    Core engi is one of, if not the weakest core spec in the game, so is basically terrible. Go see thief, warrior, etc for really strong core specs and even most other core specs like necro, ele, ranger, etc are stronger than core engy. Core engy is the poster boy for being left behind by powercreep that has obsoleted most of its design (kits, projectiles, combo fields, etc), it is so pitiful it basically needs a rework.

    Problem is holo and scrapper can be built to carry, if u buff core engie, it’s elites will be far more broken than they can reach already.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • @adventure.9032 said:
    My suggestions:

    1. Remove https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant
    2. Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devouring_Darkness to affect only 3 targets and on smaller radius.
    3. Tune down firebrand support
    4. Remove evasion from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Assault_(soulbeast)

    This.

    Trying to engage a big group on melee is basically impossible, because all the scourges destroy so many boons so easily. Scourge's ability to hit 10 targets is just too strong. Also the devouring darkness is really strong and should be nerfed a bit.

    As for the support builds its true that firebrands are really powerful. I was thinking that F2 and F3 skills cooldowns should be made longer, but this idea:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:

    • Reduce target limit of all tome skills to 3 targets. This will reduce the amount of boons and healing that firebrands are dishing out in large scale battles, but in small scale firebrand support remains strong.
    • Tome_of_Resolve All skills only affect 3 allies
    • Tome_of_Courage All skills only affect 3 allies
    • Tome_of_Justice All skills only affect 3 enemies
    • Valiant Bulwark Replace reflecting with destroying. Projectiles are already weak enough.

    Seems quite interesting too.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tappajabob.5983 said:

    @adventure.9032 said:
    My suggestions:

    1. Remove https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Savant
    2. Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devouring_Darkness to affect only 3 targets and on smaller radius.
    3. Tune down firebrand support
    4. Remove evasion from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Assault_(soulbeast)

    This.

    Trying to engage a big group on melee is basically impossible, because all the scourges destroy so many boons so easily. Scourge's ability to hit 10 targets is just too strong. Also the devouring darkness is really strong and should be nerfed a bit.

    As for the support builds its true that firebrands are really powerful. I was thinking that F2 and F3 skills cooldowns should be made longer, but this idea:

    @Coinhead.7591 said:

    • Reduce target limit of all tome skills to 3 targets. This will reduce the amount of boons and healing that firebrands are dishing out in large scale battles, but in small scale firebrand support remains strong.
    • Tome_of_Resolve All skills only affect 3 allies
    • Tome_of_Courage All skills only affect 3 allies
    • Tome_of_Justice All skills only affect 3 enemies
    • Valiant Bulwark Replace reflecting with destroying. Projectiles are already weak enough.

    Seems quite interesting too.

    Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)
    Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easily
    OR
    Lock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

  • @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)
    Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easily
    OR
    Lock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

    Both of your ideas are good, but are they implementable as a skill split? Usually skill splits just change damage/range/duration/cooldown/targets of the skills.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tappajabob.5983 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)
    Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easily
    OR
    Lock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

    Both of your ideas are good, but are they implementable as a skill split? Usually skill splits just change damage/range/duration/cooldown/targets of the skills.

    I mean a Reaper is a transformation but works on same principes

    Secondly guards had a tome skill elite as basic they might be able to use in programming?

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:

    @tappajabob.5983 said:

    @L A T I O N.8923 said:
    Ive always been in favor of giving the Times an x amount of points (20 normal and 30 traited) and every skill you use Cost An x amount of points (skill 1 1 point 2 2 pnts etc)
    Maybe even bring IT down to 10-20, since IT can spam so easily
    OR
    Lock the utility bar while in tome to be An actual trade off...instead of 3 extra skillbars

    Both of your ideas are good, but are they implementable as a skill split? Usually skill splits just change damage/range/duration/cooldown/targets of the skills.

    I mean a Reaper is a transformation but works on same principes

    Secondly guards had a tome skill elite as basic they might be able to use in programming?

    I mean the elite skills they gave a Guardian at launch