Is Drakkar a Dragon? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is Drakkar a Dragon?

Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

Or what exactly is it?

The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

Comments

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I ask, because on this wiki page under "Dragons" there is Aurene, Jormag and for some reason Drakkar - why?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Icebrood_Saga

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Jormag's champion, perhaps to jormag what glint was to kralk in terms of importance. He's been around since GW1, frozen but his influence was there

  • @Knuckle Joe.7408 said:
    Jormag's champion, perhaps to jormag what glint was to kralk in terms of importance. He's been around since GW1, frozen but his influence was there

    That explanation sums it up well.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Because this is what Drakkar looked like in GW1 Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    He's a dragon, like the claws of Jormag, the Shatterer, Tequatl the sunless, Vlast, Glint, and the various undead dragons we fought in personal story/saw around Orr.

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Because this is what Drakkar looked like in GW1 Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    He's a dragon, like the claws of Jormag, the Shatterer, Tequatl the sunless, Vlast, Glint, and the various undead dragons we fought in personal story/saw around Orr.

    Where is he located in GW1?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gryphon.2875 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Because this is what Drakkar looked like in GW1 Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    He's a dragon, like the claws of Jormag, the Shatterer, Tequatl the sunless, Vlast, Glint, and the various undead dragons we fought in personal story/saw around Orr.

    Where is he located in GW1?

    Drakkar_Lake_map.jpg

  • Gryphon.2875Gryphon.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Gryphon.2875 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Because this is what Drakkar looked like in GW1 Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    He's a dragon, like the claws of Jormag, the Shatterer, Tequatl the sunless, Vlast, Glint, and the various undead dragons we fought in personal story/saw around Orr.

    Where is he located in GW1?

    Drakkar_Lake_map.jpg

    Thanks!

  • @Arden.7480 said:
    I ask, because on this wiki page under "Dragons" there is Aurene, Jormag and for some reason Drakkar - why?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Icebrood_Saga

    Likely listed as such because Drakkar is a dragon champion. His GW1 model and his GW2 concept art have no wings, but wings don't make a dragon or not (as we can tell with Mordremoth).

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    He's a dragon, like the claws of Jormag, the Shatterer, Tequatl the sunless, Vlast, Glint, and the various undead dragons we fought in personal story/saw around Orr.

    Not like Vlast. Drakkar is a dragon champion, which Vlast technically isn't; similarly different to everything you list, those are more traditional european-styled dragons in structure, while Drakkar so far is shown to be four-limbed, not six-limbed (aka lacking wings). Naturally given Mordremoth, they don't need wings.

    A more apt comparison using dragon champions of every other ED would be "like Faolain to Mordremoth, Wraithbringer to Kralkatorrik, or Destroyer of Life to Primordus". Though Drakkar was given the same role and importance as the Great Destroyer and Glint (and, seemingly, the Giganticus Lupicus).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    The difference between Drakkar and Mordremoth is simply Mordremoth is known as the Elder Dragon, putting Drakkar with 2 Elder Dragons looks weird, as if Drakkar was equal to Aurene or his master.

    I don't see putting Claw of Jormag or the Shatterer with Dragons, only because they are their champions. Then why not to put "the Commander" under the "Dragons" because basically if I follow your thinking, it's not necessary to have wings and just be the ED's champion, so basically the Commander is the Dragon as well.

    And the Commander is not obviously a Dragon, so isn't Drakkar or Claw of Jormag - they are the Dragons' champions - and I think there should be another paragraph: Elder Dragon's champions, and "Dragons" should be renamed to "Elder Dragons" with Aurene and Jormag.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    The difference between Drakkar and Mordremoth is simply Mordremoth is known as the Elder Dragon, putting Drakkar with 2 Elder Dragons looks weird, as if Drakkar was equal to Aurene or his master.

    I don't see putting Claw of Jormag or the Shatterer with Dragons, only because they are their champions. Then why not to put "the Commander" under the "Dragons" because basically if I follow your thinking, it's not necessary to have wings and just be the ED's champion, so basically the Commander is the Dragon as well.

    And the Commander is not obviously a Dragon, so isn't Drakkar or Claw of Jormag - they are the Dragons' champions - and I think there should be another paragraph: Elder Dragon's champions, and "Dragons" should be renamed to "Elder Dragons" with Aurene and Jormag.

    The problem is we have "champions" and then we have champions who are also dragons. And then we have Elder dragons. Hell, Skyscales are also dragons in a sense, Moreso then their relatives the drakes or Wyverns.

    GW2 has always had a weird descriptive area with dragon champions, as it refers to both the Draconic, massive creatures (Claw of Jormag, Shatterer/branded type As Shatterer is a title given to a specific branded dragon, The undead type from PS and Tequatl), as well as powerful non draconic people, like the kings of Orr or powerful corrupted icebrood Norn.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Not like Vlast. Drakkar is a dragon champion, which Vlast technically isn't; similarly different to everything you list, those are more traditional european-styled dragons in structure, while Drakkar so far is shown to be four-limbed, not six-limbed (aka lacking wings). Naturally given Mordremoth, they don't need wings.

    A more apt comparison using dragon champions of every other ED would be "like Faolain to Mordremoth, Wraithbringer to Kralkatorrik, or Destroyer of Life to Primordus". Though Drakkar was given the same role and importance as the Great Destroyer and Glint (and, seemingly, the Giganticus Lupicus).

    While true, we also know there are European styled dragons and Asian/Eastern styled dragons in GW as well.

    While Vlast wasn't techincally a Dragon champion, I included him because He is a dragon, like his sister and mother.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    He is one of Jormags oldest champions.

    His classification could fit Dragon but he could probably also be classed as a Great Drake or a Leviathan too.

    Personally I am not a fan of the early concept art for him in Gw2 as in Gw1 he was far more draconid and almost plesiosaur like in form
    Gw2's concept art makes him look more like a furry snake dragon which would be a huge design change that wouldn't go over well with many of us Gw1 fans.

    This is what Drakkar clearly looks like in Gw1 should at the very least resemble in Gw2.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/69/Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    He is one of Jormags oldest champions.

    His classification could fit Dragon but he could probably also be classed as a Great Drake or a Leviathan too.

    Personally I am not a fan of the early concept art for him in Gw2 as in Gw1 he was far more draconid and almost plesiosaur like in form
    Gw2's concept art makes him look more like a furry snake dragon which would be a huge design change that wouldn't go over well with many of us Gw1 fans.

    This is what Drakkar clearly looks like in Gw1 should at the very least resemble in Gw2.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/69/Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    They did say that concept was a very early draft (the furry looking one) and wasn't representative of a final form yet.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    He is one of Jormags oldest champions.

    His classification could fit Dragon but he could probably also be classed as a Great Drake or a Leviathan too.

    Personally I am not a fan of the early concept art for him in Gw2 as in Gw1 he was far more draconid and almost plesiosaur like in form
    Gw2's concept art makes him look more like a furry snake dragon which would be a huge design change that wouldn't go over well with many of us Gw1 fans.

    This is what Drakkar clearly looks like in Gw1 should at the very least resemble in Gw2.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/69/Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    They did say that concept was a very early draft (the furry looking one) and wasn't representative of a final form yet.

    That's good to know, hopefully they're paying attention to us Gw1 players as well and have decided to replicate the Gw1 design more.
    I really don't wanna see everyone mad and complaining about the design when the next patch drops lol

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    The difference between Drakkar and Mordremoth is simply Mordremoth is known as the Elder Dragon, putting Drakkar with 2 Elder Dragons looks weird, as if Drakkar was equal to Aurene or his master.

    I don't see putting Claw of Jormag or the Shatterer with Dragons, only because they are their champions. Then why not to put "the Commander" under the "Dragons" because basically if I follow your thinking, it's not necessary to have wings and just be the ED's champion, so basically the Commander is the Dragon as well.

    And the Commander is not obviously a Dragon, so isn't Drakkar or Claw of Jormag - they are the Dragons' champions - and I think there should be another paragraph: Elder Dragon's champions, and "Dragons" should be renamed to "Elder Dragons" with Aurene and Jormag.

    The section is titled "dragons" not "Elder Dragons". Compare to Living World Season 3, which lists Primordus and Jormag under "Elder Dragons" not "dragons".

    As to Claw of Jormag or Shatterer not being dragons, they are dragons. But they're not Elder Dragons. There are three types of dragons in Tyria:

    • Lesser Dragons: wyverns, drakes, skyscales, and hydras.
    • High Dragons: Scions (e.g., Vlast, Aurene, Glint) and dragon-shaped dragon champions (e.g., Tequatl, Shatterer, Claw) of Elder Dragons. Note: This is a personal term for the group, as only "lesser dragons" and "Elder Dragons" have been used by devs.
    • Elder Dragons: Ascended high dragons.

    The wiki is listing Drakkar as a "high dragon" not an Elder Dragon.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    His classification could fit Dragon but he could probably also be classed as a Great Drake or a Leviathan too.

    Caveat: Drakes are (lesser) dragons.

    Personally I am not a fan of the early concept art for him in Gw2 as in Gw1 he was far more draconid and almost plesiosaur like in form
    Gw2's concept art makes him look more like a furry snake dragon which would be a huge design change that wouldn't go over well with many of us Gw1 fans.

    This is what Drakkar clearly looks like in Gw1 should at the very least resemble in Gw2.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/69/Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    Agreed. His GW2 model looks more like the ice column creature which has a similar elongated face, circle at the end of the mouth, and spines along the back and two stubby forelegs (though the main difference: lack of notable fur, and no hind legs on the GW1 model); meanwhile, Jormag's new look has a resemblance to Drakkar's head in GW1. Which makes me wonder if they're un-retconing their change that the creature beneath Drakkar Lake wasn't Jormag after all (in original development, that was meant to be Jormag and left it ambiguous for EotN content, but they decided it was too small to be an Elder Dragon and thus changed this during development of core GW2 to being a mere dragon champion).

    Which would mean that keeping its name "Drakkar" would make no sense, because the reason why it was given that nickname (which now seems an official name?) was because it was beneath Drakkar Lake.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    The difference between Drakkar and Mordremoth is simply Mordremoth is known as the Elder Dragon, putting Drakkar with 2 Elder Dragons looks weird, as if Drakkar was equal to Aurene or his master.

    I don't see putting Claw of Jormag or the Shatterer with Dragons, only because they are their champions. Then why not to put "the Commander" under the "Dragons" because basically if I follow your thinking, it's not necessary to have wings and just be the ED's champion, so basically the Commander is the Dragon as well.

    And the Commander is not obviously a Dragon, so isn't Drakkar or Claw of Jormag - they are the Dragons' champions - and I think there should be another paragraph: Elder Dragon's champions, and "Dragons" should be renamed to "Elder Dragons" with Aurene and Jormag.

    The section is titled "dragons" not "Elder Dragons". Compare to Living World Season 3, which lists Primordus and Jormag under "Elder Dragons" not "dragons".

    As to Claw of Jormag or Shatterer not being dragons, they are dragons. But they're not Elder Dragons. There are three types of dragons in Tyria:

    • Lesser Dragons: wyverns, drakes, skyscales, and hydras.
    • High Dragons: Scions (e.g., Vlast, Aurene, Glint) and dragon-shaped dragon champions (e.g., Tequatl, Shatterer, Claw) of Elder Dragons. Note: This is a personal term for the group, as only "lesser dragons" and "Elder Dragons" have been used by devs.
    • Elder Dragons: Ascended high dragons.

    The wiki is listing Drakkar as a "high dragon" not an Elder Dragon.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    His classification could fit Dragon but he could probably also be classed as a Great Drake or a Leviathan too.

    Caveat: Drakes are (lesser) dragons.

    Personally I am not a fan of the early concept art for him in Gw2 as in Gw1 he was far more draconid and almost plesiosaur like in form
    Gw2's concept art makes him look more like a furry snake dragon which would be a huge design change that wouldn't go over well with many of us Gw1 fans.

    This is what Drakkar clearly looks like in Gw1 should at the very least resemble in Gw2.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/69/Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    Agreed. His GW2 model looks more like the ice column creature which has a similar elongated face, circle at the end of the mouth, and spines along the back and two stubby forelegs (though the main difference: lack of notable fur, and no hind legs on the GW1 model); meanwhile, Jormag's new look has a resemblance to Drakkar's head in GW1. Which makes me wonder if they're un-retconing their change that the creature beneath Drakkar Lake wasn't Jormag after all (in original development, that was meant to be Jormag and left it ambiguous for EotN content, but they decided it was too small to be an Elder Dragon and thus changed this during development of core GW2 to being a mere dragon champion).

    Which would mean that keeping its name "Drakkar" would make no sense, because the reason why it was given that nickname (which now seems an official name?) was because it was beneath Drakkar Lake.

    Good point on the column statue, I never made that connection.

    Kinda funny if they changed it because they thought that creature was too small to be an elder dragon considering we got a good look at Primordus in Gw1 and to say the design and size of him in Gw1 doesn't match up to what we've seen of him in Gw2 would be a massive understatement lol
    The Primordus in Gw2 could swallow the primorus in Gw1 whole XD
    At least that's what the only scale comparrison we have seems like atm.

    I expect Primordus will go through similar rescaling techniques that Kralkatorrik did when we finally get round to dealing with him.

  • Has anyone got thoughts on what constitutes a dragon, other than merely providing examples of in-game creatures that could be classified as either dragons or dragon-like? Do they evolve from lesser species? Are they completely unique? Do they migrate across the Mists?

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    Has anyone got thoughts on what constitutes a dragon, other than merely providing examples of in-game creatures that could be classified as either dragons or dragon-like? Do they evolve from lesser species? Are they completely unique? Do they migrate across the Mists?

    I was just about to comment on this and then someone asked, hah.

    -

    Okay, so, the definition of "dragon" is the scope of gw2 is very unclear. I'm gonna try to tackle the question "What is a dragon in Tyria?"

    We have dragon magic, elder dragons, entities spawned from elder dragons, and dragon like creatures. All of these things provide different complications to the question of what is a dragon.

    The elder dragons are beings which can process magic (consume and give out) that seems(?) to be in a distinct/unique fashion. My problem with defining dragons as "creatures which process dragon magic" is in s3 taimi says chak organs filter the death magic out ley energy.
    Thus our first problem: what is the "ambient" magic in gw2, why are ley lines different than not-leylines, and why aren't chak dragons?
    By all means, if we take this definition, chak are dragons. I should also note that skyscales absolutely consume magic like elder dragons do- just on a much much smaller scale (volatile magic, which remember, we can only touch because of our link to aurene).

    Next, we have the entities spawned from elder dragons - like the megadestroyer, which isn't a dragon (or is it), but it has elder-dragon-like properties. Dragon minions in general show the elder-dragon-like property of being able to consume ley magic, as we see with the defend leylines from events for the conservation of magic LW side story. But very few have the dragon like physicial attributes of wings and the 4 legs tail big lizard kinda deal.

    In this category we also have dragon champions and elder dragon's champions, for example the shatterer, glint, aurene, vlast are all crystal dragons who are/were/had or have the potential to be a champion of kralkatorrik but that honor was held by the shatterer and shatterer alone. These all hold traditional dragon physical attributes.

    Zhaitan's dragon champions, like the plague bringer and those we fight on the airship in arah, are not THE head honcho champion of zhiatan (tequatl held that honor), but are all physically dragon looking- Tequatl at least holds the elder-dragon-like quality of magic consumption. Similarly, it's implied many "Claw of Jormag" exist.
    Mordremoth had the shadow of the dragon, we do not know what drakkar looks like, to my knowledge we do not know if the great destroyer looks like a dragon. Only in the case of zhaitan and jormag do we see dragons as a normal part of the repertoire as for the rest their only dragons were unique (aside from wyverns/drakes/hydras).

    We also know that glint had eggs - if it can reproduce, this would provide evidence that to some degree the elder dragons may be of a unique species type, however we do not know if the other dragon's champions were created in the same way.

    Then there is the supposed lesser dragons, wyverns drakes skyscales and hydras. These certainly hold physical attributes that belong to dragons in mythos, but as far as we know only skyscales hold the elder-dragon-like ability of magic consumption. And to refer to an earlier complication; if ley energy is dragon magic all together, and dragons eat a specific spectrum out of ley energy, then...hydras, wyverns and drakes alike all appear as bounties in PoF/LW - bounties are creatures that have become hyper aggressive due to holding an excess of ley magic- if these creatures held the elder-dragon-like propert of magic consumption would they still be ley crazed?

    There is also the dragons of cantha, which i believe are lesser dragons, but i did not play gw1 so i cannot comment on them.

    IDK what the answer is to the question, i'm of the mind that a dragon is a unique creature-type that holds the physical attributes of traditional dragons in mythos, and also possess the elder-dragon-like ability to consume filter and spit out magic. Looks like dragon = true, processes magic = true, then dragon = true. if either of the first two are false, then dragon = false.

    Though even this is fairly complicated as mordremoth was evidently not very dragon like physically, for all we know the EDs we haven't seen may also look strange but be dragons. All we know for a fact is that kralkatorrik, glint, aurene and vlast are the same creature-type, we do not know how the shatterer was made (we can assume in the same way glint was, but that's all - assume). And if we dismiss "lesser" dragons as being not dragons, the skyscale sticks out to both looking like a dragon and having elder-dragon-like capabilities.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Lexi.1398 said:

    Has anyone got thoughts on what constitutes a dragon, other than merely providing examples of in-game creatures that could be classified as either dragons or dragon-like? Do they evolve from lesser species? Are they completely unique? Do they migrate across the Mists?

    I was just about to comment on this and then someone asked, hah.

    -

    Okay, so, the definition of "dragon" is the scope of gw2 is very unclear. I'm gonna try to tackle the question "What is a dragon in Tyria?"

    We have dragon magic, elder dragons, entities spawned from elder dragons, and dragon like creatures. All of these things provide different complications to the question of what is a dragon.

    The elder dragons are beings which can process magic (consume and give out) that seems(?) to be in a distinct/unique fashion. My problem with defining dragons as "creatures which process dragon magic" is in s3 taimi says chak organs filter the death magic out ley energy.
    Thus our first problem: what is the "ambient" magic in gw2, why are ley lines different than not-leylines, and why aren't chak dragons?
    By all means, if we take this definition, chak are dragons. I should also note that skyscales absolutely consume magic like elder dragons do- just on a much much smaller scale (volatile magic, which remember, we can only touch because of our link to aurene).

    Next, we have the entities spawned from elder dragons - like the megadestroyer, which isn't a dragon (or is it), but it has elder-dragon-like properties. Dragon minions in general show the elder-dragon-like property of being able to consume ley magic, as we see with the defend leylines from events for the conservation of magic LW side story. But very few have the dragon like physicial attributes of wings and the 4 legs tail big lizard kinda deal.

    In this category we also have dragon champions and elder dragon's champions, for example the shatterer, glint, aurene, vlast are all crystal dragons who are/were/had or have the potential to be a champion of kralkatorrik but that honor was held by the shatterer and shatterer alone. These all hold traditional dragon physical attributes.

    Zhaitan's dragon champions, like the plague bringer and those we fight on the airship in arah, are not THE head honcho champion of zhiatan (tequatl held that honor), but are all physically dragon looking- Tequatl at least holds the elder-dragon-like quality of magic consumption. Similarly, it's implied many "Claw of Jormag" exist.
    Mordremoth had the shadow of the dragon, we do not know what drakkar looks like, to my knowledge we do not know if the great destroyer looks like a dragon. Only in the case of zhaitan and jormag do we see dragons as a normal part of the repertoire as for the rest their only dragons were unique (aside from wyverns/drakes/hydras).

    We also know that glint had eggs - if it can reproduce, this would provide evidence that to some degree the elder dragons may be of a unique species type, however we do not know if the other dragon's champions were created in the same way.

    Then there is the supposed lesser dragons, wyverns drakes skyscales and hydras. These certainly hold physical attributes that belong to dragons in mythos, but as far as we know only skyscales hold the elder-dragon-like ability of magic consumption. And to refer to an earlier complication; if ley energy is dragon magic all together, and dragons eat a specific spectrum out of ley energy, then...hydras, wyverns and drakes alike all appear as bounties in PoF/LW - bounties are creatures that have become hyper aggressive due to holding an excess of ley magic- if these creatures held the elder-dragon-like propert of magic consumption would they still be ley crazed?

    There is also the dragons of cantha, which i believe are lesser dragons, but i did not play gw1 so i cannot comment on them.

    IDK what the answer is to the question, i'm of the mind that a dragon is a unique creature-type that holds the physical attributes of traditional dragons in mythos, and also possess the elder-dragon-like ability to consume filter and spit out magic. Looks like dragon = true, processes magic = true, then dragon = true. if either of the first two are false, then dragon = false.

    Though even this is fairly complicated as mordremoth was evidently not very dragon like physically, for all we know the EDs we haven't seen may also look strange but be dragons. All we know for a fact is that kralkatorrik, glint, aurene and vlast are the same creature-type, we do not know how the shatterer was made (we can assume in the same way glint was, but that's all - assume). And if we dismiss "lesser" dragons as being not dragons, the skyscale sticks out to both looking like a dragon and having elder-dragon-like capabilities.

    I can see that you're really wrestling with your understanding of this subject, too. I'm of the opinion that if you, Lexi, with your breadth of knowledge, have problems coming up with a definition that really works - you know, the kind that doesn't require a thesis to express, then many, many more players must have the same problems too. I wonder how the wiki writers handle this? They can't be any better informed.

    I like the basics of your approach: if it walks like a dragon, talks like a dragon, and smells like a dragon, the chances are that it is a dragon.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    Maybe the problem here is evolution? Maybe real dragons evolved through natural processes. These processes included the formation of spell-casting genes that have made them so magically adept that they can now create other proto-dragons from almost anything? Maybe this is the key? Even so, this doesn't do anything to help us identify the original dragon species from which all others came.

    What does everyone think about this?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Agreed. His GW2 model looks more like the ice column creature which has a similar elongated face, circle at the end of the mouth, and spines along the back and two stubby forelegs (though the main difference: lack of notable fur, and no hind legs on the GW1 model); meanwhile, Jormag's new look has a resemblance to Drakkar's head in GW1. Which makes me wonder if they're un-retconing their change that the creature beneath Drakkar Lake wasn't Jormag after all (in original development, that was meant to be Jormag and left it ambiguous for EotN content, but they decided it was too small to be an Elder Dragon and thus changed this during development of core GW2 to being a mere dragon champion).

    Which would mean that keeping its name "Drakkar" would make no sense, because the reason why it was given that nickname (which now seems an official name?) was because it was beneath Drakkar Lake.

    I doubt they are going for retcon area, considering they are having Drakkar wake up, and Jormag being seperate.

    TBH, it's probably because the original Drakkar model is squished, only meant to be vaguely seen through murky frozen water. All the clear pics use a graphics setting to remove all that stuff that disguises his form. They probably went "Well not that he's going to be shown in a fully 3d manner, with people looking at him from all angles we need to do some upgrades to his look."

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So it's still a possibility that Bangar was reffering to Drakkar when he said: Let's go get ourselves a dragon?

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    or maybe they will use Drakkar against Jormag? hmmmm

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    So it's still a possibility that Bangar was reffering to Drakkar when he said: Let's go get ourselves a dragon?

    He's most definately meaning Jormag. Drakkar, while a powerful champion (the one who corrupted Svanir, and started the cult of Svanir laying awake, but frozen under the lake) is no elder dragon. Bangar is seeking to even the odds, to get an Elder dragon under his control or aligned with him.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    Has anyone got thoughts on what constitutes a dragon, other than merely providing examples of in-game creatures that could be classified as either dragons or dragon-like? Do they evolve from lesser species? Are they completely unique? Do they migrate across the Mists?

    In GW2, the term "dragon" can refer to either: Elder Dragons, dragon-shaped champions of Elder Dragons, or lesser dragons.

    Lesser Dragons
    Everything that has been called a lesser dragon is an element-breathing reptile, in effect. Their limbs vary, but that's one thing they all have in common: they're reptilian in appearance, and they have elemental breaths. To break it down:

    • Drakes: Called lesser dragons, and cousins to wyverns, they are capable of breathing fire, ice, and poison - at least. Four legged, and found throughout the known gamespace.
    • Wyverns: Another lesser dragon, named cousin to drakes, they're four limbed, and can breath fire or lightning (at least).
    • Hydras: A lesser dragon named such via a Guild Chat video; they're found in places of high temperature (e.g., Ring of Fire) or arid landscapes (e.g., post-Searing Ascalon) in GW1, and in GW2 focused around Elona/Crystal Desert. They're four limbed (in GW1, they were more like t-rexes, in GW2 they take on a more traditional appearance) but with multiple heads; they breath fire, ice, or lightning. In some rare cases, they can even breath all three (one per head).

    Saltspray Dragons tend to fall under the same as Wyverns; while other Canthan dragons fall under Drakes. Then there's Bone Dragons, who's original form were more traditional European, like the Skyscale, but we know that Skyscales were made by the Mists via copying Kralkatorrik who was rampaging through the region so there's no relation between the two. We have not seen any living "Bone Dragons" so we cannot accurately diagnose them.

    They're notably different from the Elder Dragons and their scions, in that lesser dragons cannot become Elder Dragons - like normal mortals, they have a low tolerance for absorbing magic as shown via the hydra bounties in PoF.

    There's no reason to believe they migrated from the Mists - aside from Skyscales that is. By all appearances, they seem native to Thyria. Though hydras and drakes were seen in the Mists before (specifically the Fissure of Woe), and wyverns are now visible in the borderlands; but these are also segments of the Mists known for copying things on Tyria.

    Dragon-shaped champions of Elder Dragons
    Called "dragon champions" as a shorthand of "champions of Elder Dragons", in general dragon champion do not require one to be draconian in appearance, but the most powerful often are. These most powerful include the risen dragons like Tequatl and Blightghast, Shadow of the Dragon, The Shatterer, Great Destroyer, and Claw of Jormag.

    Unlike the lesser dragons, these are not natural living beings nor is there any indication they were dragons before corruption. The Shatterer, for example, is specifically called hand-forged by Kralkatorrik, as was the Wraithbringer; it was made out of corrupted air and land, not too dissimilar to destroyers. Naturally, none of these come from the Mists, and their abilities are linked to their Elder Dragons' domains.

    There is, however, an implication that these dragon champions are capable of replacing Elder Dragons, as Tequatl did get a significant power boost after Zhaitan died, from Zhaitan's magic. Whenever a minion gains a power boost, they become a champion; if a champion were to gain a power boost, the implication via Ogden on Glint is that they become an Elder Dragon. This is also the foundation of "can the Pale Tree replace Mordremoth" theory/question.

    Elder Dragons and their scions
    Also called "true dragons", I like to refer to them as "high dragons" to counter the "lesser dragon" motif; these dragons are not mere elemental reptiles, but are bound to a domain within the All. One way to think of them would be to merge the attributes of the two above groups - reptiles of high magic, bound to one of the domains of The All; e.g., crystal. Since at their peak (Elder Dragons), The All is dependent on them, it's unlikely they originated from the Mists, either.

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  • @Lexi.1398 said:
    Thus our first problem: what is the "ambient" magic in gw2, why are ley lines different than not-leylines, and why aren't chak dragons?

    Technically there is no difference. Places of high ambient magic are also places very close to ley lines. If you want to define a difference then it would be "locations near ley lines" versus "the ley lines themselves".

    @Lexi.1398 said:
    Next, we have the entities spawned from elder dragons - like the megadestroyer, which isn't a dragon (or is it), but it has elder-dragon-like properties. Dragon minions in general show the elder-dragon-like property of being able to consume ley magic, as we see with the defend leylines from events for the conservation of magic LW side story. But very few have the dragon like physicial attributes of wings and the 4 legs tail big lizard kinda deal.

    @Lexi.1398 said:
    In this category we also have dragon champions and elder dragon's champions, for example the shatterer, glint, aurene, vlast are all crystal dragons who are/were/had or have the potential to be a champion of kralkatorrik but that honor was held by the shatterer and shatterer alone. These all hold traditional dragon physical attributes.

    Zhaitan's dragon champions, like the plague bringer and those we fight on the airship in arah, are not THE head honcho champion of zhiatan (tequatl held that honor), but are all physically dragon looking- Tequatl at least holds the elder-dragon-like quality of magic consumption. Similarly, it's implied many "Claw of Jormag" exist.
    Mordremoth had the shadow of the dragon, we do not know what drakkar looks like, to my knowledge we do not know if the great destroyer looks like a dragon. Only in the case of zhaitan and jormag do we see dragons as a normal part of the repertoire as for the rest their only dragons were unique (aside from wyverns/drakes/hydras).

    Okay, so, four things here.

    1) An Elder Dragon can and do have multiple champions. Glint was a dragon champion of Kralkatorrik, but was "cleansed" by the Forgotten so she betrayed him. There was more than one Shatterer in the end, as we can see about 8-12 Death-Branded Shatterers around Dragonfall. Initially, "The Shatterer" was a title given to the champion that patrolled the Dragonbrand in Ascalon; but down south there were more visually similar dragon champions (who flew north to replace the ones killed).

    2) Tequatl was no more "the head honco of champion" than Blightghast. Blightghast led an army of multiple other lesser champions against the three Order HQs and Lion's Arch. This is a much higher task than assaulting some hylek. Ultimately though, they had the same role. Tequatl and Blightghast were equals. The only champion that is given a higher place among similar champions is the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan tasked with guarding the Artesian Waters while the other Eyes patrolled Orr.

    3) We do know what Drakkar and the Great Destroyer look like, from GW1 (Great Destroyer looks like a destroyer modeled after Kralkatorrik - fat body, long neck/tail, short insectoid legs). These two serves a different purpose than the Shadow of the Dragon or Blightghast - they serve the same role that Glint was meant to, as a herald. Dragon champions tend to fulfill one of three roles:

    • Defender: Defends territory, like the dragons above Orr and Morgus Lethe did for Zhaitan; Dragonspawn did for Jormag; The Shatterer did for Kralkatorrik (before becoming Death-Branded)
    • Assaulter: Leads armies to attack others, like Blightghast, Tequatl, and The Maw for Zhaitan, Claws of Jormag for Jormag, Destroyer of Life for Primordus, Octovines for Mordremoth
    • Herald: Their job is to be active while the Elder Dragon sleeps, defend them while they sleep, and gather magic once there's a signficant amount back into the world in order to wake them again, each Elder Dragon seems to only have one herald; known champions of this role were Glint (Kralkatorrik, betrayed), Drakkar (Jormag), The Great Destroyer (Primordus, killed), and possibly the risen Giganticus Lupicus (Zhaitan); Scarlet Briar ended up fulfilling this role for Mordremoth, despite not being properly corrupted.

    4) They are not called dragon champions or dragon minions because they themselves are dragons. They're called such because they're minions/champions of a(n elder) dragon.

    Though even this is fairly complicated as mordremoth was evidently not very dragon like physically,

    You seem to be stuck on the traditional European design for dragons. If you look at other mythologies of the world, their design for dragons differ but are still called "dragons". Take the Chinese interpretation: a snake with stubby legs and antlers on their head. Mordremoth is fairly close to this design, which is the same as the Mystical Dragon miniature.

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  • @Arden.7480 said:
    So it's still a possibility that Bangar was reffering to Drakkar when he said: Let's go get ourselves a dragon?

    No. Because they want an Elder Dragon to rival "our Elder Dragon" Aurene.

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    He is one of Jormags oldest champions.

    His classification could fit Dragon but he could probably also be classed as a Great Drake or a Leviathan too.

    Personally I am not a fan of the early concept art for him in Gw2 as in Gw1 he was far more draconid and almost plesiosaur like in form
    Gw2's concept art makes him look more like a furry snake dragon which would be a huge design change that wouldn't go over well with many of us Gw1 fans.

    This is what Drakkar clearly looks like in Gw1 should at the very least resemble in Gw2.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/69/Drakkar_body_GW1.jpg

    They did say that concept was a very early draft (the furry looking one) and wasn't representative of a final form yet.

    That's good to know, hopefully they're paying attention to us Gw1 players as well and have decided to replicate the Gw1 design more.
    I really don't wanna see everyone mad and complaining about the design when the next patch drops lol

    Totally understand that...although personally I prefer his newer design. A gigantic creature looking like that towering over everyone looks bloody cool in my mind's eye

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    I ask, because on this wiki page under "Dragons" there is Aurene, Jormag and for some reason Drakkar - why?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Icebrood_Saga

    Likely listed as such because Drakkar is a dragon champion. His GW1 model and his GW2 concept art have no wings, but wings don't make a dragon or not (as we can tell with Mordremoth).

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    He's a dragon, like the claws of Jormag, the Shatterer, Tequatl the sunless, Vlast, Glint, and the various undead dragons we fought in personal story/saw around Orr.

    Not like Vlast. Drakkar is a dragon champion, which Vlast technically isn't; similarly different to everything you list, those are more traditional european-styled dragons in structure, while Drakkar so far is shown to be four-limbed, not six-limbed (aka lacking wings). Naturally given Mordremoth, they don't need wings.

    A more apt comparison using dragon champions of every other ED would be "like Faolain to Mordremoth, Wraithbringer to Kralkatorrik, or Destroyer of Life to Primordus". Though Drakkar was given the same role and importance as the Great Destroyer and Glint (and, seemingly, the Giganticus Lupicus).

    In "destiny's edge" book - zaithan has random undead pirate as his champion (pirate was named Morgus Lethe) and jormag had some1 named Dragonspawn (and it was some kind of shaman or smthn; not a dragon).

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hmm...Morgus Lethe....he based himself in a maelstrom didn't he? That was pretty cool. Would have been awesome translated into game

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    dont forget Mordremoth, that thing looks nothing like a dragon in all forms, the DS form makes me think someone in Anet's artistic team probably watched too much japanese tentacle hentai

    there's also bubbles, we have no idea how it will look when rendered, if it ever going to happen, but for something to swim in the sea it will need flippers, and a pair of giant wings would not make sense

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