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Future hope for the Guardian elite spec


The V.8759

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Note: I'm not typing this because I hate the current specs, I'm typing this because Guardian specs just don't feel satisfying to me from a design standpoint. I'm mostly curious in how you would view this opinion and what you find charming about the Guardian!

Playstyle standpointThe guardian's core mechanic are his vitues: Justice, Resolve and Courage. With every elite spec that gets released, it's virtues remain the largely the same but changed in a slight way. On Justice on Dragonhutner you get an extra pull ability, on FB you get the tome of Justice. But in the end, it's Always still about that burning. No matter how you change the active on the other 2, they are still about healing and Aegis. This resultst in, for me, a boring elite specialisation. Firebrand was designed to be a condition class. But because he has tomes of Resolve and Courage, and they had to be revolving around healing and aegis, it became a bunker. Long story short, the core mechanic of guardian barely changes per elite spec to me.

Lore standpointA guardian has 3 important virtues, but a guardian can become especially specialized in one field of work. Why doesn't that new specialisation allow for different virtues? A Dragonhunter might find the virtue of "Bravery" more important, and interchanges that with justice. A Firebrand might find the virtue of Prudence way more important. Guardians are bound to Virtues, that's their lore, what they find most important. But nothing in lore (as far as I know) is binding them to 3 specific virtues. The Guardian descriptipon reads:

Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.

ConclusionPersonally I would love to see in future Elite specs, that Guardians would get different virtues, effectively and actually chaning their core mechanic. Still keeping a passive and an active, but different. No more "burning, healing, Aegis".

I would love to hear what you guardians think about this :)

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@"The V.8759" said:Note: I'm not typing this because I hate the current specs, I'm typing this because Guardian specs just don't feel satisfying to me from a design standpoint. I'm mostly curious in how you would view this opinion and what you find charming about the Guardian!

Playstyle standpointThe guardian's core mechanic are his vitues: Justice, Resolve and Courage. With every elite spec that gets released, it's virtues remain the largely the same but changed in a slight way. On Justice on Dragonhutner you get an extra pull ability, on FB you get the tome of Justice. But in the end, it's Always still about that burning. No matter how you change the active on the other 2, they are still about healing and Aegis. This resultst in, for me, a boring elite specialisation. Firebrand was designed to be a condition class. But because he has tomes of Resolve and Courage, and they had to be revolving around healing and aegis, it became a bunker. Long story short, the core mechanic of guardian barely changes per elite spec to me.

Lore standpointA guardian has 3 important virtues, but a guardian can become especially specialized in one field of work. Why doesn't that new specialisation allow for different virtues? A Dragonhunter might find the virtue of "Bravery" more important, and interchanges that with justice. A Firebrand might find the virtue of Prudence way more important. Guardians are bound to Virtues, that's their lore, what they find most important. But nothing in lore (as far as I know) is binding them to 3 specific virtues. The Guardian descriptipon reads:

Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.

Conclusion
Personally
I would love to see in future Elite specs, that Guardians would get different virtues, effectively and actually chaning their core mechanic. Still keeping a passive and an active, but different. No more "burning, healing, Aegis".

I would love to hear what you guardians think about this :)

Change the virtues to "ashes", and give them a more caster focused theme. Allow them to summon spirits which function like turrets on the engineer and grant them the ability to use dagger/dagger. Call it the ritualist and voila you have something unique and different that is also a similar beast in vein of its predecessor within core, plus we don't have worthwhile casting daggers on any class. Dagger on necromancer SUCKS.

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While I am not expecting new elites to be coming.. ever... From game play prospective, we already have power, condi and support covered. Mobility is the only role missing.

And ya, power builds are garbage in PvP (sames goes for ranged weapons), but that a balance issue not a design issue.

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@"The V.8759" said:BraveryI don't think there is enough difference between Courage and Bravery to justify making them to different virtues.That aside, that Burning from Justice is too integral to even power builds to drop it.Also, I tend to couple bravery with recklessness, which is the last thing a Guardian needs.Bravery isn't even classified as a virtue.PrudenceSeeing the latin origin of the word, I don't think it fits any kind of guardian.They aren't seeing ahead; they just deal with what's in front of them (this even has a gameplay interpretation of no longer having viable ranged options).Prudence can also be seen as a reluctance to take risks, which Guardians do not have.Tempereance, also known as restraint, the practice of self-control, abstention, discretion, is not something Guardians are shown to have.Justice and Courage are already in the game, so the four "Cardinal Virtues" are covered.

Then we have the theological virtues Faith, Hope and Charity.Faith, as a virtue, is directly linked to divine entities. This can't even be used for the game, as non-Flame legion Charr (aka the Charr player factions) do not possess this virtue.Hope and Charity would both end up as boon spams.Hope spamming buff like Stability, Resistance and other defensive Buffs, as well as Regeneration; thus Hope would end up merging Resolve and Courage.Charity would end up offering offensive boons like Quickness, Alacrity and Might.Seeing how this would require an Elite spec extremely close to Firebrand (or a complete rework of Firebrand), I doubt this will happen.Of course, they could make and Elite spec that uses the F1,2,3 to drop totems pulsing these boons, but that might end up just being a worse, stationary Firebrand.They could also make a spiritualist e-spec that has players choose one of the virtues that spawns a spirit following you around and pulse these boons, but that would be nerfed into not being viable.

I've only scratching the Abrahamic (Christian, Muslim, Jewish) virtues in this, but I don't think it would look much different in Islam, Buddhism, Shinto or other Asian religions.

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I think a large part of the reason why the effects of the virtues are, to some degree, "fixed" is because so many of the core traits assume that guardians will always have reliable access to burning and aegis regardless of the build. How much they rely on these depends on the build, but short of a complete rework of the core traits (and I'd rather they didn't, since core guardian traits work fairly well on the whole at the moment - not saying they're perfect, but a long way from needing to be torn up at the roots and rebuilt anew) burning is always going to be the primary damaging condition of a guardian, and aegis is always going to be present to some degree.

I'd also disagree with the primary assumption of the OP. Firebrand is designed to both provide condition options and support options. Whether Firebrand is oriented towards condition damage, granting quickness, healing, granting protective boons, or even doing power damage depends on the traits, utilities, and gear being used, and the playstyle will shift accordingly. Yes, a DPS-oriented Firebrand will still have access to the support tomes, and a heal/prot Firebrand will still have access to Tome of Justice, but they'll use them differently: the former will regard the support tomes as something to pull out in an emergency, while the latter might try to spend as much time as possible in support tomes and only pull out the ToJ as a stopgap when the other two are on cooldown.

If anything, in fact, I'd say that Firebrand was primarily intended to beef up the supportive aspects of the guardian up to the level set by druids, chronomancers, and tempests in HoT - guardian was billed as being amng the most supportive professions in core, but the "no dedicated healers" philosophy of core combined with the fairly selfish focus of dragonhunter meant that this aspect was pretty much lost in HoT. Firebrand addresses it, and ArenaNet saw an opportunity to expand the guardian's condition options in the process.

This does open up the possibility for a dedicated condition-oriented elite specialisation in the future, but even then I don't think it would replace the core concepts of the virtues entirely. Justice, for instance, might become an energy bolt that inflicts additional damaging conditions such as Torment and Confusion on top of Burning (and anything else that might come from existing traits), Resolve might consume or transfer conditions instead of being a simple heal and cleanse, and there might be a trait similar to Shattered Aegis that inflicts conditions when an Aegis is expended so that whatever Courage does also plays into being a condition spec.

Within the core themes of "burning, healing, aegis", I think ArenaNet has actually done a pretty good job at providing three very different sets of virtues. Which is a good thing, since it means there's probably less of an urge on ArenaNet's part to start piling on punitive "tradeoffs" like they did to chronomancer and scrapper.

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I honestly don't see what could they possibly add to guardian (from gameplay perspective). I am not saying we have everything possible in our arsenal, but I don't think we need completely new spec for things we are lacking. Everything we need can be achieved by tweaking already existing traitlines and e-specializations.

So whatever we get in the future (if we get anything) should be oriented towards giving us something fresh and exciting to play, but not necessarily a new role to play. I would honestly like something "outside of the box" like giving us mechanics akin to phantasms, turrets, pets, grenades, bursts etc etc.. (of course making it thematically appropriate).At this point in game's life, I think we need fun and fresh builds more than anything else.

Also, I am fairly certain that idea of Virtues as game mechanics comes from real world concept of four cardinal virtues - Justice, Prudence, Temperance and Courage. So I am not sure if it would "work" to simply pick a word and place it as a virtue.

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@"kasoki.5180" said:Everything we need can be achieved by tweaking already existing traitlines and e-specializations.You should add skill rework to that list, so spirit weapon might become something you want:mechanics akin to phantasms, turrets, pets.not necessarily a new role to playI actually do want a new role: a light-based caster.It could be 600 range, featuring dual daggers One of the 3 virtues is always "chosen", comparable to Elemental Attunements and provide a different passive effect than the core virtue. Not "chosen" virtues will retain their regular passive.And the new utilities would be glyphs, that change depending on the "chosen" virtue.That could become another thing you want:something fresh and exciting to play

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Yeah, spirit weapons used to be the Guardian's equivalent to phantasms, minions, and the old scrapper drones. Problem is that they essentially had all the downsides of all three, being temporary and difficult to control.

I could see the "virtues as attunements" thing working - traits related to active use of a virtue could trigger when "choosing" that virtue. So, for instance, Wrath of Justice might trigger on the first hit after "choosing" Justice, while killing an enemy while Justice is on cooldown might refresh Justice, making Justice with Radiance essentially the specialisation's equivalent to Air on a Fresh Air build.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Yeah, spirit weapons used to be the Guardian's equivalent to phantasms, minions, and the old scrapper drones. Problem is that they essentially had all the downsides of all three, being temporary and difficult to control.

I could see the "virtues as attunements" thing working - traits related to active use of a virtue could trigger when "choosing" that virtue. So, for instance, Wrath of Justice might trigger on the first hit after "choosing" Justice, while killing an enemy while Justice is on cooldown might refresh Justice, making Justice with Radiance essentially the specialisation's equivalent to Air on a Fresh Air build.

At one point, I was brainstorming exactly that just for funsies but I just lost interest in the project. Not that it was bad, I just get way too caught up in details and it becomes a slog. I work out things in my head first before writing them down, so while I had ideas for traits and utilities too, I never finished those.

Here's a copy of my draft, the name was more of a working title:

SUMMARYRunewardens empower their Virtues at the cost of only being able to use one of them at a time. These empowered Virtues are called Stances.In combat they fight with the Halberd, and cast Glyphs to support themselves.

BACKGROUND

CLASS MECHANICVirtues become Stances that can only be used one at a time. You default to the F1 stance, and traited on activation effects trigger from entering the respective stance. After entering a stance, all of the stances go into a 10 second global cooldown, locking you into that stance until coming off cooldown. On activation and Passive effect are triggered simultaneously so that the passive benefits are applied to the active.

F1, Strength of Justice

  • Passive: Every 5th attack inflicts Burning on foes (4 seconds) and grants you Might (1 stack) for 8 seconds. You gain 150 Power and Condition Damage while in this Stance.
  • On activation: Trigger a fiery blast at your location, doing damage, and Burn(1 stack for 4 seconds) foes around you. This is considered a Blast Combo Finisher, and also removes a boon from effected foes. Radius 240.

F2, Renewed Resolve

  • Passive: Regenerate 165 health per second with a scaling of 0,06 from Healing Power. You gain 150 Healing Power and +10% Incoming Healing in this Stance.
  • On activation: Heal allies(5 targets) around you for 1050 with a scaling of 1,00 from Healing Power. You gain +15% more health for each ally healed.

F3, Shielding Courage

  • Passive: Gain 700 barrier every 3 seconds with a scaling of 0,12 from Healing Power. You take -20% less Condition Damage while in this Stance.
  • On activation: Grants Aegis for 10 seconds to you and allies around you.

WEAPON SKILLSThe main advantage of the Halberd, and Polearms in general, is that they grant you a range advantage over other melee weapons. This range advantage allows the Runewarden to cast his Glyphs at a safer distance and help his allies without fear of instant retaliation, while still being in the thick of it.

  1. 3-part Auto-attack chain. Range 180, 3 targets. Damage should be considered slightly less(-5%ish) than a comparable Greatsword attack.
    • Cleaving Strike: Strike your foes, leaving them Vulnerable(1 stack for 6 seconds). 0,5 second animation.
    • Wide Swipe: Swipe horizontally in front of you, inflicting more Vulnerability(1 stack for 6 seconds). 0,5 second animation.
    • Spiritual Thrust: Prepare a powerful thrust, summoning 2 Spirit Halberds to strike with you. Each successful hit inflicts Vulnerability(1 stack for 6 seconds per attack). 0,75 second animation.
  2. Conviction: Charge at your foe, dealing damage and removing a boon if you hit. If a boon was removed, inflict Weakness for 3 seconds. Range 600. Cooldown is 8 seconds. 0,5 casting/activation time. Counts as a Leap Combo Finisher.
  3. Sundering Arc: Slam your Halberd point first into the ground and release a wave of protective magic that grants Protection to you and your allies for 5 seconds. Foes struck by the wave take damage and are inflicted with Vulnerability(5 stacks for 8 seconds), and Burning(1 stack for 4 seconds). 12 second cooldown. Range 450. 110 degree cone width. 0,25 second activation time.
  4. Thunderous Light: Throw your Halberd to target location, knocking down foes and teleporting to where it lands. Knockdown duration is 2 seconds. 180 radius. Range 900. Cooldown 25 seconds. Think Infiltrator's Arrow when you think about the teleport but think True Shot regarding how it would look like.
  5. Symbol of Honor: Plant a mystic symbol on your feet that grants Aegis(for 1 second) and Endurance(10) to allies standing in it. Duration is 4 seconds and pulses 5 times. Radius 180. Cooldown 40 seconds. Damage to foes is comparable to Symbol of Swiftness.

UTILITY SKILLSA Runewarden uses Glyphs. Why? I don't know. It makes sense to me.

Heal:

  • Glyph of Recovery: Regenerate health over time. Lasts for 8 seconds, gain 962 health per pulse, and 0,15 per 1 point of Healing Power. Gain an additional benefit based on which Stance you activate this skill in. F1: Gain Might (1 stack for 8 seconds) each second. F2: Gain Endurance(10) each second. F3: Gain 255 Barrier every second. Barrier gained is increased by 0,25 per point in Healing Power. Cooldown 30 seconds.

Utility:

TRAITS

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Core Guard is Group supportDragon Hunter is single target DPSFirebrand is Engineer kits

So the only 2 things I can think are missing is making them super mobile like Thieves, or area Debuff like Necro.

From a thematic perspective, the latter is has the most Potential for adding a Punishment playstyle that they're already kind of halfway setup for between many of their skills and Justice passive to ride off of. And easily named Inquisitor. Bonus Unintended sync up, its a Witch Hunter to the Icebrood's treason. Bonus-Bonus story tie in, can easily go hand in hand with Brham going off the deep end with a persecution spree, twisting Guardian virtues, and manipulating him against his own allies through paranoia, at the knowledge that Jormag may have willing spies and saboteurs hidden among them. The more I think about it, the more I like this.

Justice becomes JudgementResolve becomes PenitenceCourage becomes Absolution

..... but what does it punish?

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From what ArenaNet was talking about before HoT launch, Dragonhunter was already supposed to have a bit of a "witch hunter for those corrupted by dragons" identity.

Combining Retribution with Confusion, and maybe Torment, would make for a fairly strong "punishment" theme, but I suspect there'd be a lot of complaints about what they'd probably call an elite spec based around their opponent not being able to play. (Just look at the complaints that mesmers already attract.)

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