Elite-level specializations for basic professions — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Elite-level specializations for basic professions

I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

<1

Comments

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    ehm no. core profession are core. what if i wanted core guardian to be buffed to be a condition dps and not a healer ?

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

    But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

    • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
    • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
    • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
    • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
    • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
    • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
    • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

    Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

    To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

    I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

    Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

    I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

    They should bring all the professions into the elite spec power scale at their core level, which would mean E-specs would become different ways to play rather than straight upgrades with little nuances. They shouldn't be stronger but should be just a different and potentially more diversifying portion of your class; This then would help with balance and future E-specs to be more nuanced.

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

    To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

    Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

    I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Providence.7185 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

    To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

    Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

    I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

    PoF and HoT heropoint trains are being done many times during a week. Newbies will have virtually no issue getting all 250 required points.

  • @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Providence.7185 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

    To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

    Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

    I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

    PoF and HoT heropoint trains are being done many times during a week. Newbies will have virtually no issue getting all 250 required points.

    There's also the fact players can get 200 hero points from the core maps, as well.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @xenon.3264 said:
    ehm no. core profession are core. what if i wanted core guardian to be buffed to be a condition dps and not a healer ?

    Then you do that. Makes no difference. You don't HAVE to be a healer; that's just what I want. The point is you would be a GUARDIAN, not a firebrand or dragonhunter.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    ehm no. core profession are core. what if i wanted core guardian to be buffed to be a condition dps and not a healer ?

    And elite specs where supposed to come with some sort of negative so that it wasnt a straight out upgrade, and they do not do that at all for most classes. I cant even play my Ranger without SB these days cause Ranger is so weak on its own. Anets balancing has never been great, but elite specs made it way more obvious. Same with my ele and weaver.

    That's my point: you can't play a ranger in high-level zones. Or, rather, you can't play one as effectively as any other class using an elite spec.

    This would level the playing field between the core professions and the elites, to make them playable again.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

    But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

    • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
    • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
    • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
    • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
    • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
    • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
    • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

    Agreed. I wouldn't limit it to just one trait line, though. But, one would have to choose a single trait line as your elite. (Of course, there would be five, if you wanted to spec out five characters as one of each, but that doesn't seem likely for most folks.)

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    Expansion or not doesn't matter. I personally would make this independent of them, but there's no reason they couldn't be part of an expansion.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    I'm only discussing PvE, although some of this might apply elsewhere.

    Elite specializations have has one significant issue across the board: they reduce the ability to play the core profession. Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

    To fix this, I think the core specializations should have the ability to be slotted as an elite, and receive a corresponding increase in power to match.

    I'm not sure how much more powerful a current elite spec is compared to non-elite ones, but devs must have access to that information. So, if they do, that would make it nearly trivial to do the calculations: just multiply by that percentage.

    Getting them to be slotted as elite might be more complicated, though. Perhaps creating a new trait line with the same traits, but a different name might work. Then, disallow using the old and the new together.

    I would really like to be able to play a guardian healer as a guardian, but having druids in the game makes that a stripped-down option. Same thing for warriors, necros, and most of the professions.

    They should bring all the professions into the elite spec power scale at their core level, which would mean E-specs would become different ways to play rather than straight upgrades with little nuances. They shouldn't be stronger but should be just a different and potentially more diversifying portion of your class; This then would help with balance and future E-specs to be more nuanced.

    Exactly. Ele becomes a viable alternative to tempest or weaver.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Providence.7185 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

    To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

    Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

    I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

    I understand, but disagree, at least sort of. My idea should come with requirements as well, and of a similar amount of work to attain as it would being a new elite spec.

    BUT, the requirements might be fulfillable in core or even in the LS zones. I suspect they would have to add some kind of hero-point-like structure to make the costs clear to players, as they are with current elites.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Providence.7185 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?
    Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

    You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

    To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

    Even the above fails to mention that following the typical game path the new player still will spend 80 levels and much of the Personal story on a - typically - less interesting/fun core spec.

    I would argue that the requirement for unlocking the elite specs - beyond purchasing the expansions - hurts the Devs business model substantially. Too many roadblocks are placed between the new/ish player and the coveted elite specs and all those fun looking game play videos he sees.

    PoF and HoT heropoint trains are being done many times during a week. Newbies will have virtually no issue getting all 250 required points.

    Correct, but if someone wanted to get all 7 elites (if all of this idea is implemented), they wouldn't be able to do it on a single character. Now, you can actually attain both elites without too much difficulty, but adding 5 more would require new "something" (to replace or add to hero points).

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing might not be clear in my proposal:

    Characters would get ONE elite specialization, same as now. The key would be that one of them, instead of choosing what are the current elites, could be one of the original five, but at the same slightly elevated power level as the elites have.

    I THINK that this would mean simply math calculations. If the elites are targeted at 5% better, than make zeal 5% better. And virtue, etc. They shouldn't need to change anything else. (But, your character could only use one of them at a time, and would forego having an elite spec to do it.)

    NOTE: by "power" in all of the above, I mean general power level, not the specific attribute called Power.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

    But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

    • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
    • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
    • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
    • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
    • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
    • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
    • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

    Agreed. I wouldn't limit it to just one trait line, though. But, one would have to choose a single trait line as your elite. (Of course, there would be five, if you wanted to spec out five characters as one of each, but that doesn't seem likely for most folks.)

    The reason I suggested to upgrade 1 traitline, and a specific one, is because honestly otherwise this is just too much work for too little return. Considering how poorly ANet been handling balancing in this game as it is the last 4-5 years.

    At that point, you might as well just have a feature that says if you have a class with only core traits, gets a free +20% damage bonus, to compete with the elites. (Number pending depending on actual balance etc)

    Reworking all 5 trait lines to be both core trait lines and core-elite-traitlines (potential, if put into the third spot) isn't that far from asking for 2-3 new elites, in pure work and balance load. The scale of the idea becomes unrealistic.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

    But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

    • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
    • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
    • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
    • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
    • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
    • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
    • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

    Agreed. I wouldn't limit it to just one trait line, though. But, one would have to choose a single trait line as your elite. (Of course, there would be five, if you wanted to spec out five characters as one of each, but that doesn't seem likely for most folks.)

    The reason I suggested to upgrade 1 traitline, and a specific one, is because honestly otherwise this is just too much work for too little return. Considering how poorly ANet been handling balancing in this game as it is the last 4-5 years.

    At that point, you might as well just have a feature that says if you have a class with only core traits, gets a free +20% damage bonus, to compete with the elites. (Number pending depending on actual balance etc)

    Reworking all 5 trait lines to be both core trait lines and core-elite-traitlines (potential, if put into the third spot) isn't that far from asking for 2-3 new elites, in pure work and balance load. The scale of the idea becomes unrealistic.

    Yeah, that would work. (Assuming 20% is the right number. But, they would know that.) Different idea for the same concept. Thanks!

  • @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Elites beef up the character too much to ignore. It simply makes playing a core profession undesirable.

    Considering you need to spend actual money to get them, they better.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

  • Game of Bones.8975Game of Bones.8975 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would still like to see a kick-kitten elite longbow ranger.
    I have the Dragonhunter for an elite bowman to run around with instead.

    "That's what" -- She

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    I believe there should have been a mandatory elite trait line on hitting level 80, to include:

    • Core elite (the profession specific line, eg Illusions, Trickery, Beastmastery, etc)
    • HoT elite
    • PoF elite

    Sure that means only 4 other trait lines to combine with, but would have helped towards some kind of balance by the Core elite line being exclusive to a Core build.

    Edit - though this is all moot as the ship has sailed.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lottie.5370Lottie.5370 Member ✭✭✭

    The way I see it is, the core specialisation introduces you to the class and most of the mechanics of a class. The specialisations then add to this, once you have already learnt the "core/backbone" of a profession. Playing a core class in open world is sufficient enough to clear all content.

    The beauty of core classes is that you are not locked into any trait line, so you can build pretty much any way that you want. The specialisations are well.. specialised, and when you specialise in something, it means you are good at it, so it makes sense that the specialisations would be strong in what they specialise in.

    Of course this is different from a PvP or WvW standpoint, you are objectively at a disadvantage without the expansions (less so in PvP, some core classes are viable).

  • xenon.3264xenon.3264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @xenon.3264 said:
    ehm no. core profession are core. what if i wanted core guardian to be buffed to be a condition dps and not a healer ?

    And elite specs where supposed to come with some sort of negative so that it wasnt a straight out upgrade, and they do not do that at all for most classes. I cant even play my Ranger without SB these days cause Ranger is so weak on its own. Anets balancing has never been great, but elite specs made it way more obvious. Same with my ele and weaver.

    I play ranger as beast mastery and longbow . Guess what ? I love it

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Ignoring elite specializations and how they are currently still often more potent compared to core trait lines, which can also be considered a good thing since most priority balance happens around how trait lines synergize with 1 elite trait line (which in turn reduces work load a lot since not all trait lines need to be equally powerful), this suggestion would result in:

    • a LOT of extra work in balancing old content which currently works fine. Work hours which could be spent on developing new content, most directly new elite specializations
    • future balance workload becoming overproportionatly higher since designing and balancing 2 for each core trait line would require double to constant monitoring
    • create more unintuitive barriers where some players already need time to adjust and understand the current traitline system
    • no significant shift in class performance abilities. For example: heal guardian works just fine, it simply is outperformed by heal firebrand. The role as such though is more than possible on guardian, unlike say a thief or mesmer. The net gain of possible roles per core class would not significantly increase, definitely a lot less than with a new set of elite specilaizations
    • many core builds are quite powerful currently in different game modes

    In short: this idea creates more current and future work for less return than alternative areas where these resoucres could be used, has no significant impact on the class role distribution and doe not provide any significant actual new content.

    TL;DR:
    Another one of those "great" ideas where people just start talking about what they think would be great without actually spending even 2 minutes on refining their idea into a state where it would make sense to implement into the game or even discuss. Another idea which has a chance of 0.00001% of ever getting taken serious by people who actually have to manage the workload at a time where resources are strained already.

    What is so complex about multiplying numbers? Change NOTHING ELSE. Just multiply all values by the percentage targeted by elites now. (Which I don't know, but I assume ANet does. One person above suggested +20%.)

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    I would still like to see a kick-kitten elite longbow ranger.
    I have the Dragonhunter for an elite bowman to run around with instead.

    Exactly my point. Why on earth is a guardian better with a longbow than a ranger? That makes no sense whatsoever. Yet, here it stares us in the face.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    >

    Edit - though this is all moot as the ship has sailed.

    Possibly. But, if it has, then 90% of the arguments against this idea evaporate. Getting a new elite is probably not going to happen. But, these wouldn't be new. The would be slightly beefed-up old lines.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lottie.5370 said:
    The way I see it is, the core specialisation introduces you to the class and most of the mechanics of a class. The specialisations then add to this, once you have already learnt the "core/backbone" of a profession. Playing a core class in open world is sufficient enough to clear all content.

    The beauty of core classes is that you are not locked into any trait line, so you can build pretty much any way that you want. The specialisations are well.. specialised, and when you specialise in something, it means you are good at it, so it makes sense that the specialisations would be strong in what they specialise in.

    Of course this is different from a PvP or WvW standpoint, you are objectively at a disadvantage without the expansions (less so in PvP, some core classes are viable).

    Except the elite specs commonly have nothing at all to do with the profession. Think ranger and druid. What on earth do they have in common besides pets? Soulbeast is closer, but daggers?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Ignoring elite specializations and how they are currently still often more potent compared to core trait lines, which can also be considered a good thing since most priority balance happens around how trait lines synergize with 1 elite trait line (which in turn reduces work load a lot since not all trait lines need to be equally powerful), this suggestion would result in:

    • a LOT of extra work in balancing old content which currently works fine. Work hours which could be spent on developing new content, most directly new elite specializations
    • future balance workload becoming overproportionatly higher since designing and balancing 2 for each core trait line would require double to constant monitoring
    • create more unintuitive barriers where some players already need time to adjust and understand the current traitline system
    • no significant shift in class performance abilities. For example: heal guardian works just fine, it simply is outperformed by heal firebrand. The role as such though is more than possible on guardian, unlike say a thief or mesmer. The net gain of possible roles per core class would not significantly increase, definitely a lot less than with a new set of elite specilaizations
    • many core builds are quite powerful currently in different game modes

    In short: this idea creates more current and future work for less return than alternative areas where these resoucres could be used, has no significant impact on the class role distribution and doe not provide any significant actual new content.

    TL;DR:
    Another one of those "great" ideas where people just start talking about what they think would be great without actually spending even 2 minutes on refining their idea into a state where it would make sense to implement into the game or even discuss. Another idea which has a chance of 0.00001% of ever getting taken serious by people who actually have to manage the workload at a time where resources are strained already.

    What is so complex about multiplying numbers? Change NOTHING ELSE. Just multiply all values by the percentage targeted by elites now. (Which I don't know, but I assume ANet does. One person above suggested +20%.)

    Thanks for proving my point.

    If you had any idea how multiplicative values work in this game, you'd understand how hilarious bad this idea is.

  • Lottie.5370Lottie.5370 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Lottie.5370 said:
    The way I see it is, the core specialisation introduces you to the class and most of the mechanics of a class. The specialisations then add to this, once you have already learnt the "core/backbone" of a profession. Playing a core class in open world is sufficient enough to clear all content.

    The beauty of core classes is that you are not locked into any trait line, so you can build pretty much any way that you want. The specialisations are well.. specialised, and when you specialise in something, it means you are good at it, so it makes sense that the specialisations would be strong in what they specialise in.

    Of course this is different from a PvP or WvW standpoint, you are objectively at a disadvantage without the expansions (less so in PvP, some core classes are viable).

    Except the elite specs commonly have nothing at all to do with the profession. Think ranger and druid. What on earth do they have in common besides pets? Soulbeast is closer, but daggers?

    Nature...?

  • @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Ignoring elite specializations and how they are currently still often more potent compared to core trait lines, which can also be considered a good thing since most priority balance happens around how trait lines synergize with 1 elite trait line (which in turn reduces work load a lot since not all trait lines need to be equally powerful), this suggestion would result in:

    • a LOT of extra work in balancing old content which currently works fine. Work hours which could be spent on developing new content, most directly new elite specializations
    • future balance workload becoming overproportionatly higher since designing and balancing 2 for each core trait line would require double to constant monitoring
    • create more unintuitive barriers where some players already need time to adjust and understand the current traitline system
    • no significant shift in class performance abilities. For example: heal guardian works just fine, it simply is outperformed by heal firebrand. The role as such though is more than possible on guardian, unlike say a thief or mesmer. The net gain of possible roles per core class would not significantly increase, definitely a lot less than with a new set of elite specilaizations
    • many core builds are quite powerful currently in different game modes

    In short: this idea creates more current and future work for less return than alternative areas where these resoucres could be used, has no significant impact on the class role distribution and doe not provide any significant actual new content.

    TL;DR:
    Another one of those "great" ideas where people just start talking about what they think would be great without actually spending even 2 minutes on refining their idea into a state where it would make sense to implement into the game or even discuss. Another idea which has a chance of 0.00001% of ever getting taken serious by people who actually have to manage the workload at a time where resources are strained already.

    What is so complex about multiplying numbers? Change NOTHING ELSE. Just multiply all values by the percentage targeted by elites now. (Which I don't know, but I assume ANet does. One person above suggested +20%.)

    Here are a couple of "obvious" problems with this idea (where by "obvious", I really mean they occurred to me without much thought):

    For many traits, it just doesn't make sense to scale the numbers up by 20% (or whatever other arbitrary value you pick). Take, for example, the Thief's Trickery traitline: Kleptomaniac grants 2 initiative when you steal, Preparedness increases maximum initiative by 3, and Quick Pockets grants 3 initiative when you swap weapons. In the elite slot, would these traits now grant 2.4 and 3.6 initiative? What does that even mean?

    For traits where scaling by 20% does make sense, it's unlikely that this scaling would benefit all traits equally. Some traits might become overpowered, while others would barely benefit at all. The scaling for each trait would have to be calculated separately.

    Also, there's a deeper point that you seem to think ANet have a deliberate intention that elite specs should be "20% better" (or at least some percentage better) than core specs. But 20% better at what? It's totally unclear (at least to me) how that would be quantified, or what it would really mean. Sure, some things are easy to quantify - you could ask, for example, that elites deal 20% more damage than core professions. But if that's what you mean, ANet definitely isn't taking that approach. As an example, Druid doesn't have a 20% damage bonus over core Ranger; on the other hand, it is more than "20% better" at healing.

    (By the way, I actually think the essence of what you're suggesting is a good idea - but I don't see any practical way to implement it, given the somewhat convoluted nature of the trait system and the wide range of effects and interactions that traits can have,)

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    I would still like to see a kick-kitten elite longbow ranger.
    I have the Dragonhunter for an elite bowman to run around with instead.

    Exactly my point. Why on earth is a guardian better with a longbow than a ranger? That makes no sense whatsoever. Yet, here it stares us in the face.

    They're... not? Ranger longbow's still great on soulbeast, while dragonhunter longbow got nerfed into the ground (along with the traps) because of lazy PVPers.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Ignoring elite specializations and how they are currently still often more potent compared to core trait lines, which can also be considered a good thing since most priority balance happens around how trait lines synergize with 1 elite trait line (which in turn reduces work load a lot since not all trait lines need to be equally powerful), this suggestion would result in:

    • a LOT of extra work in balancing old content which currently works fine. Work hours which could be spent on developing new content, most directly new elite specializations
    • future balance workload becoming overproportionatly higher since designing and balancing 2 for each core trait line would require double to constant monitoring
    • create more unintuitive barriers where some players already need time to adjust and understand the current traitline system
    • no significant shift in class performance abilities. For example: heal guardian works just fine, it simply is outperformed by heal firebrand. The role as such though is more than possible on guardian, unlike say a thief or mesmer. The net gain of possible roles per core class would not significantly increase, definitely a lot less than with a new set of elite specilaizations
    • many core builds are quite powerful currently in different game modes

    In short: this idea creates more current and future work for less return than alternative areas where these resoucres could be used, has no significant impact on the class role distribution and doe not provide any significant actual new content.

    TL;DR:
    Another one of those "great" ideas where people just start talking about what they think would be great without actually spending even 2 minutes on refining their idea into a state where it would make sense to implement into the game or even discuss. Another idea which has a chance of 0.00001% of ever getting taken serious by people who actually have to manage the workload at a time where resources are strained already.

    What is so complex about multiplying numbers? Change NOTHING ELSE. Just multiply all values by the percentage targeted by elites now. (Which I don't know, but I assume ANet does. One person above suggested +20%.)

    Here are a couple of "obvious" problems with this idea (where by "obvious", I really mean they occurred to me without much thought):

    1: For many traits, it just doesn't make sense to scale the numbers up by 20% (or whatever other arbitrary value you pick). Take, for example, the Thief's Trickery traitline: Kleptomaniac grants 2 initiative when you steal, Preparedness increases maximum initiative by 3, and Quick Pockets grants 3 initiative when you swap weapons. In the elite slot, would these traits now grant 2.4 and 3.6 initiative? What does that even mean?

    For traits where scaling by 20% does make sense, it's unlikely that this scaling would benefit all traits equally. Some traits might become overpowered, while others would barely benefit at all. The scaling for each trait would have to be calculated separately.

    2: Also, there's a deeper point that you seem to think ANet have a deliberate intention that elite specs should be "20% better" (or at least some percentage better) than core specs. But 20% better at what? It's totally unclear (at least to me) how that would be quantified, or what it would really mean. Sure, some things are easy to quantify - you could ask, for example, that elites deal 20% more damage than core professions. But if that's what you mean, ANet definitely isn't taking that approach. As an example, Druid doesn't have a 20% damage bonus over core Ranger; on the other hand, it is more than "20% better" at healing.

    3: (By the way, I actually think the essence of what you're suggesting is a good idea - but I don't see any practical way to implement it, given the somewhat convoluted nature of the trait system and the wide range of effects and interactions that traits can have,)

    At least you have logical arguments. I've numbered them for clarity.

    1: They aren't integers even now. They go up over time at rates determined by your traits, which can be varied based on equipment and other traits. They APPEAR as integers, but it's how often they appear that matters.

    However, there probably are instances where integer arithmetic really does occur. Those would be instances where it would require balancing by ANet, and make this idea harder to implement than I described above. However, these are few in number and scattered. I'm guessing they could be managed relatively easily. But, the bulk of the numbers are not integral in nature, and would be served by simple math.

    2: 20% (if that's the number) would apply to everything. For a druid, but is usually in healing/buffing mechanics. While I'm not sure what the number is (or numbers are), it's guaranteed that they have them positioned they way they want them. All game designers go through a process to determine the relative power of items in the game. They wouldn't tell the public, lest someone game the system. But, they have them.

    3: Thanks.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    HoT and PoF are both designed to be harder than core areas. In fact, they were done so to raise the challenge for people with ... elite specifications. (And mounts, gliding, etc., but primarily because of elites.) Fractals are designed to be more challenging than core maps, as were dungeons. This isn't an idea to beef up new characters. It should require roughly the same amount of game interaction as the 18 elites do now.

    My idea isn't to make things easier. It's to make the original professions not be a second tier to elite specialization professions.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

    Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

    Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

    The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Game of Bones.8975 said:
    I would still like to see a kick-kitten elite longbow ranger.
    I have the Dragonhunter for an elite bowman to run around with instead.

    Exactly my point. Why on earth is a guardian better with a longbow than a ranger? That makes no sense whatsoever. Yet, here it stares us in the face.

    They're... not? Ranger longbow's still great on soulbeast, while dragonhunter longbow got nerfed into the ground (along with the traps) because of lazy PVPers.

    But, you're making my point: a soulbeast is NOT a ranger. It's a soulbeast. Why does a ranger have to give up being a ranger in order to use a longbow?

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Core classes have a hard time surviving? This is so wrong, in fact it couldnt be more wrong. Do same stats work differently on various specs? No, they dont. Some even are meta, like core warr and guard.
    Core warr/mesmer/guard/Engi/ele/necro/ranger/thief can certainly dish out more damage than whats needed for most pve content. Instanced content as well, there are still vids where people solo dungeons on core specs.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2019

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Opened metabattle and found the following builds with a rating 4 and above, for open world:
    One for ele
    4 for engi
    One for guard
    One for mesmer
    One for necro
    One for ranger
    One for reve
    One for thief
    2 for warr.

    Are elite specs better? In most cases, yes. But core builds are just as viable, for open world content. People used to run dungeons solo on core builds for a long time. Doesnt get more meta than that.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

    As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

    Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    Ever tried a minon master necro?

    So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Daddicus.6128 said:
    Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

    I don't know what you are talking about...

    There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

    As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

    This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

    That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

    The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

    If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

    Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

    In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

    As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.