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imagine :)

Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

Back in July I made a thread wondering if staff staff thief should get the same treatment the "degenerate" CI build got, aka nerfed to unplayability after the trait was completely disabled.

The mods for some reason chose to move it to thief sub where it wont be seen again but here it is, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82885/staff-thief#latest

One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be lots of LOL's and XD's about it. Here are those.

@Alatar.7364 said:
I don't deny Staff DrD has lots of Evades in both Weapons and Traitline, but consider that it is only becuase it is heavily invested in it and is the only thing it can do Evade and Deal mediocre-dmg, if it was actually effective or dangerous then we'd see it as a viable/meta side-noder, but it is not because it just does two things only and in a very predictable fasion.

@ZhouX.8742 said:
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
Staff thief lmao

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
Oh look. Thief's a side noder.

@ZhouX.8742 said:
Which makes it useless, that's why it's funny. Thief's prime role is decapper.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
See above post for the joke.

@Elxdark.9702 said:
this build has always been useless and bad but it works in ranked because people will outnumber it so your main goal is go to far and 1v1 the entire game, but the true purpose of this build is simply stack people with you so your team can win fights.

This is why u will never see this build in any monthly or anything close to competitive games because it's easily avoided and it's boring af.

inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD.

So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No?

Tagged:
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Comments

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How would it be fixed?

    I think make sure staff 3 don't work with jump is one, and staff mastery might need to lose the endurance regen.

    Also, Quick Pockets = gain 0 initiative if swapping to same weapon type.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    How would it be fixed?

    I think make sure staff 3 don't work with jump is one, and staff mastery might need to lose the endurance regen.

    Also, Quick Pockets = gain 0 initiative if swapping to same weapon type.

    personally, I think jump staff 3 getting the big nerf would be a fantastic starting point with not a lot needed more than that.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one (ever) in any of my matches, except me for fun.
    It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well.

    With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is.
    So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Elxdark.9702 said:
    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    man speek troof.

    when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:
    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    man speek troof.

    when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild

    D/D Core Power Backstab is pretty dope, should give it a try.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:
    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    man speek troof.

    when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild

    D/D Core Power Backstab is pretty dope, should give it a try.

    It's absolutely useless unless your team can always keep the pressure/peel up.
    In other words it works only when your team is not under pressure whenever you're +1ing.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • @Alatar.7364 said:
    It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one (ever) in any of my matches, except me for fun.
    It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well.

    With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is.
    So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start.

    You just said it yourself friend.

    When it comes to certain comps it is like meta +++ because jimmys sisters uncles grannys great grandmother could play it and she was deaf and blind. Delete it.

    Theif needs a serious look at and make some really good meta builds which are balanced and have good counterplay. The first place Anet should start is by making a thread about d/p theif and bring the build back into the game because that is what every theif loves to play, make that build fairly balanced and s/d power as well, then people won't want to play the cheese rubbish.

    Theif have serious problems right now more than any other class it is desperate for balance. D/p is where you start.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    Anet has given a lot of nice tools to play a cost effective boon steal equivalent of S/D with D/D based around pure stealth if you prefer not blinding everytime for sustain, good thing to not be bound on Larcenous Strike after a Flanking Strike which is a nice trade off from Infiltrating Strike.

    It has the same tools if not improving utility all besides Dagger Storm with more condition cleansing. It deserves all the rights to be called a duelist. Losing Improvisation is absolutely nothing to fuss over with so much Stealth and control over Evade frames.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Elxdark.9702 said:
    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    man speek troof.

    when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild

    D/D Core Power Backstab is pretty dope, should give it a try.

    Is it the sbobby build?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Is it the sbobby build?

    Nah. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgiVlFw2YisLGJWMPfrTA-zZAPlMFBBMEKYBkxEwgDA

    Some variables here and there depending on your choice, Withdraw or Hide In The Shadows, Grandmaster Traits on Shadow Arts pick up or down, can always go with Trickster for Withdraw and Roll For Initiative if you prefer Boon Steal on each stealth attack, that fear can setup good blows for Heartseekers and it works when you remove boons.

    Actually faced p good players on it yesterday night. If you can get your Cloak and Dagger timing close to revealed removal, it's pretty lethal. Heartseeker pairs well Vs weak targets after backstabs with the Hidden Killer bonus. As said earlier, with more control on evades with Death Blossom, it's quite easy to sustain.

    I've heard some complains about losing Mug, tbh the siphon bonuses compensates for it if you're consistent, 3 Backstabs front or back heals you for 2094 in total and that can be done in less than 20 seconds. Obviously you still lose improvisation but with improved Stealth imo, doesn't matter as much.

    Edit: Honestly any rune works, though I prefer Centaur or Evasion.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    Anet has given a lot of nice tools to play a cost effective boon steal equivalent of S/D with D/D based around pure stealth if you prefer not blinding everytime for sustain, good thing to not be bound on Larcenous Strike after a Flanking Strike which is a nice trade off from Infiltrating Strike.

    It has the same tools if not improving utility all besides Dagger Storm with more condition cleansing. It deserves all the rights to be called a duelist. Losing Improvisation is absolutely nothing to fuss over with so much Stealth and control over Evade frames.

    It definitely has its moment but due to Reveal and clunkiness of CnD (in case of your build also due to lack of precision) it greatly lacks any real pressure outside the once on a while burst.

    Also why called it a duelist? The build is definitely not one, it's a typical +1.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Elxdark.9702 said:
    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    NEVER said it was a good build, in fact the terminology I used was, DEGENERATE build.

    If the meta is chase kills over fighting for caps, then staff staff thief is the perfect choice as a fifth, since it will be left to cap and defend. It's been usable in mat for quite a while now, only recently has it actually been taken. I saw this coming from a mile away, and was LOL'd when I said it. Maybe now that it won an MAT it will be addressed, again preferably the same way the "degenerate" CI build was handled.

    I don't believe the only way to play the game is to zerg 3 points, the same way I didn't believe that degenerate staff staff thief was LOL and/or XD. The fact that USA lost to it should prove that in itself.

    BTW the staff staff thief that won took shadow portal.

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    People saying staff thief isn't meta, yikes. Double Staff Thief is meta, and it has been since the changes.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:
    Back in July I made a thread wondering if staff staff thief should get the same treatment the "degenerate" CI build got, aka nerfed to unplayability after the trait was completely disabled.

    The mods for some reason chose to move it to thief sub where it wont be seen again but here it is, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82885/staff-thief#latest

    One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be lots of LOL's and XD's about it. Here are those.

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    I don't deny Staff DrD has lots of Evades in both Weapons and Traitline, but consider that it is only becuase it is heavily invested in it and is the only thing it can do Evade and Deal mediocre-dmg, if it was actually effective or dangerous then we'd see it as a viable/meta side-noder, but it is not because it just does two things only and in a very predictable fasion.

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Staff thief lmao

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Oh look. Thief's a side noder.

    @ZhouX.8742 said:
    Which makes it useless, that's why it's funny. Thief's prime role is decapper.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    See above post for the joke.

    @Elxdark.9702 said:
    this build has always been useless and bad but it works in ranked because people will outnumber it so your main goal is go to far and 1v1 the entire game, but the true purpose of this build is simply stack people with you so your team can win fights.

    This is why u will never see this build in any monthly or anything close to competitive games because it's easily avoided and it's boring af.

    inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD.

    So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No?

    Some of the things people said there is just wrong. Thief is not just a decapper. Staff damage is actually really good so even bunker does good damage, but you don’t see bunker really killing people because the damage is predictable and hard to hit 100% of the time. I do think elxdark was correct at the time because players only used this build to annoy people at the time in ranked. The thing is the meta took a drastic change and now is meta. The thing is that the build is still kind of bad in the way that your team needs to play around you- for example there was no way sicario would’ve won that monthly if zyn didn’t baby sit the staff thief. Staff thief is definitely a boring useless build most of the time. That probably explains why people don’t want it in inhouses. I’d also like to point out as a thief main that condi thief hard counters staff/staff in addition to the bunker build being useless in 90% of ranked matches.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    @Grimjack.8130 said:
    People saying staff thief isn't meta, yikes. Double Staff Thief is meta, and it has been since the changes.

    There weren’t really any changes though except that you get condi clear on dodge now. I would say it fits.

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one (ever) in any of my matches, except me for fun.
    It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well.

    With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is.
    So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start.

    What most people as to it not being meta is mostly that it isn’t an actually good thief build. This build is still in a precarious spot despite being in mAT winning teams. Just look at what happened to s/d- right when it became meta anet nerfed every single one of its passives. Staff is just an outlier in this meta tbh, it has no place besides stalling and this with slight changes can be instantly lost. > @Elxdark.9702 said:

    it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

    it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol.

    the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter.
    that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage.

    A build that is useless 90% of the time that only exist as an outlier is just not going to be accepted to many thief mains as meta. Many of the people who play this build aren’t even thief mains nor are useful 90% of the time especially against an actually good thief player that can just win in a plus 1. Give staff thief nerfs that match the ones every other thief build received in the past year and it’s probably gonna die never to be called meta again

  • We can quibble about semantics like "good build versus degenerate build", "viable versus meta", etc. But at the end of the day, does anyone want any build that is effectively perma-evades running around in any competitive mode? Think about it.

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭

    The only reason Staff Thief isn't and wasn't widely known as being meta and still isn't is because we didn't have any major tournaments until very recently. The more real games that happen, the more you'll see it and understand.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    Before the patch you had scrapper which was far superior in teamfights and chrono (gutted the same patch staff thief was buffed) which won every 1v1 in that meta anyway.
    Btw its not just condi clear on dodge but also perm weakness with an extra 10% dmg reduction and shadow portal so you cant even get decapped (staff thief is slow otherwise).
    This build should have no place in the game

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grimjack.8130 said:
    People saying staff thief isn't meta, yikes. Double Staff Thief is meta, and it has been since the changes.

    Staff Staff Daredevil is about as degenerate as it gets.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Koen.1327 said:
    Before the patch you had scrapper which was far superior in teamfights and chrono (gutted the same patch staff thief was buffed) which won every 1v1 in that meta anyway.
    Btw its not just condi clear on dodge but also perm weakness with an extra 10% dmg reduction and shadow portal so you cant even get decapped (staff thief is slow otherwise).
    This build should have no place in the game

    doesnt it have perma swiftness and vault for distance from time to time? wouldnt really call it slow tbh.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    Staff thief absolutely wasn't the only reason for the win of mAT in NA. And Sindrener gives a good analysis on the game in EU. It is strong, and really dumb. But people will learn to play around it.

    €: And, yes, hopefully it gets nerfs. Like condi thief. Make d/p great again.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:
    inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD.
    So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No?

    That's insane, but if there's data there's data. gonna probably need to shave endurance gen on staff or put an ICD on it.

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    We can quibble about semantics like "good build versus degenerate build", "viable versus meta", etc. But at the end of the day, does anyone want any build that is effectively perma-evades running around in any competitive mode? Think about it.

    This. perma-sustain that allows you to contest a point is bad for the game period. We were here with turret engies, bunker ventari revenants, etc. No matter your class you shouldnt have any combination of buttons that unconditionally removes counterplay/your need to react to and avoid your opponents key skills for any extended amount of time, especially if it lets you contest while you do it.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    still waiting for ANY comment from devs. i wonder how long we will wait.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:
    still waiting for ANY comment from devs. i wonder how long we will wait.

    About that long.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    I get removing the bug but feels like a dumb down of the skill now but I get why needed to be done. Increasing ini of any skills is a little off as preparedness trait is basically a must have in almost every thief build severely lowering build deversity. Preparedness needs to be baseline or ini on skills need to be lowered not raised so thief builds have a chance to be viable without running the trickery traitline. Yeah I kno builds can be done without the traitline but they are literally handicapped by not choosing trickery which should not be the case.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

    what about fix to Scourge in PVE? the last update destroyed Scourge and Neco Pve.. and it really need a fix

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

    Thank you for addressing this.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    Well, I'm glad the fixed the bug. But it looks like staff is going back into the closet save the vault spammers.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Eurantien.4632Eurantien.4632 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

    Is this going to happen before the Monthly?

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

    6 init is too much, just putting that out there. The jump bug fix alone is good, but consider 5 for staff 3 if you absolutely must bump it up, otherwise nobody is going to bother even using it over vault. If it costs as much as vault in PVP, people will always use Staff 5 instead because cripple < raw damage. Removing immob is covered by several other skills.

    If you want to make it cost the same as vault, consider making the evade a bit longer in duration..

    Also thanks for the transparency. That's a significant portion of what we need.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

    Fair enough. I can respect that. Let's see how it pans out then.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    The feedback and concerns to the incoming changes are all valid, and I wanted to expand a bit more on why we ended up on the change that we did. Here's the situation that we were looking at:

    1) There's a clear problem with staff thief based on past tournament games and results
    2) There's another 'monthly' this weekend. We can expect more of the same comps if nothing changes
    3) We have a chance to get something into a hotfix.

    We absolutely want to fix the problem for the monthly, but working in a hotfix timeline limits the scope of what we we should do. The correct change in a perfect world is a combination of smaller adjustments to (not necessarily all of these at once) Escapist's Fortitude, Roll for Initiative, Quick Pockets, Staff Master, and Debilitating Arc. But because we're doing this as part of a hotfix, the most important consideration is doing something safe. More changes introduce more risk, so we want to limit ourselves to a single change, in addition to the bug fix. The straight initiative increase to Debilitating Arc looks like the highest impact option so that's what we went with. As for making it 6 vs 5 (or solely doing the bug fix), we have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

    So yes the change may be too heavy-handed, and yes there are better changes in the grand scheme of things than the one that was made. We will definitely be revisiting this for the next update, but in the immediate time-frame we had to work with we felt this was the best option available.

    While I am glad that this build is getting changed, the reasons presented are extremely questionable to me. Especially because staff 3 has existed in this iteration for an extensive period of time, only now that it has won a monthly is this problem addressed (in urgency). I'm confused on some terminology here, it seems in one sentence you are "keeping it small and simple" and then in another sentence it's, "we have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard."

    Needless to say there is a LOT of questions I have, and I'm sure others, as to the intentions behind changes made regarding balance.
    One question I have is: what is the clear problem with staff thief "based on past tournament games and 'results?'" The wording of that statement is very odd to me.

    Regardless of all of that, I very much appreciate the desperately needed communication from you and your team and I hope that it continues.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @NotoriousNaru.1705 said:
    Staff thief has been used on both regions by winning teams for last 2 mats(the only 2 to happen since buffs to the build). It has been meta since the buffs happened awhile prior to mats but was never an issue because no one in ranked plays it(since the condi counterpart is more popular there and fits the ranked playstyle more) or really knew about it except for top players abusing it in mat matches when mats finally came back after they were broken. If you are asking what cmc is referring to you can look at sinds pov of the monthly he did where flandre(non thief player) trolls 3 good players on node, without taking any pressure until they leave. Or watch the last 2 na mats where kat does the same thing or observe how unkillable half decent players are on the build in any daily at on na(reckless/grim/anya/etre).

    The entire premise of this build is to slot the same weapon on both slots to proc sigils nonstop(degenerate), spec solely for evades(degenerate), abuse a bug to avoid having in between dodge frames(degenerate), along with daggerstorm which buys you enough time to fill the gap in your evades. Also, escapist fortitude gives way too much sustain healing and condi cleanse, though not degenerate but very powerful with the amount of 'evades' happening. We have been doing daily ats and reckless can easily push in to an entire team(against good players) and just sit at their home node, they are smart enough to leave him in a stale because wasting time on it is pointless even in a 1v3 situation. The build is so tanky the meta has evolved to node wars with optimal comps being running 2x staff thieves having them afk on both sides of the map. The issue with people telling you to "just ignore 4head" is they will cap those nodes, and never leave. Most roamers currently cannot simply force them off even after wiping the team with those thieves thus buying enough time for a comfortable regroup with the map. People are resorting to utils such as seal area, line of warding, fear ring because those will cc despite the evades and force stunbreaks very quickly in which case a good staff thief shadow steps away, and comes right back when theyre gone. Those who think ignoring them is the play probably only play ranked or have simply not caught up to structured meta yet. This is the conclusion I have come to after playing this comp with and against staff thieves. Doing scrims and ats daily with my team.

    I appreciate the run down on the build however I am already fully aware of it as well as how to play it (since I regularly play against you and all of the people you mentioned), as well as on EU; the first thread I brought it up in was made in July. Equally, I'm aware of what 1v1s it and wins the match up, but I think what you've said will definitely help those who aren't playing against this build as much as us have some good insight on it.

    Very specifically this "The entire premise of this build is to slot the same weapon on both slots to proc sigils nonstop(degenerate), spec solely for evades(degenerate), abuse a bug to avoid having in between dodge frames(degenerate), along with daggerstorm which buys you enough time to fill the gap in your evades." This is extremely important information that more people should be and should have been aware of and I'm very glad you said it.

    I'm much more interested in hearing the Dev PoV because, as we all know, they are the ones that change the game, and I think it is extremely valuable insight to hear it. I think they can speak for themselves.

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.3527

    Such harsh nerfs make me worry that staff will be left as an unusable weapon set (spvp/wvw) and with it the whole idea of a 'bruiser' thief, especially since anet is not know for rolling back changes to things once they start to underperform due to excessive nerfings across multiple patches.

    Increasing the initiative of skill 4 to 6 is too much and along side the jump-cast fix (which is deserved) will confine staff daredevil to oblivion.
    In my mind the best way to tackle this skills would be to give debilitating arch a clearer window of vulnerability in its animation; people never complain about death blossom evasion even tho it can be spammed just as many times because it is much easier to get a hit in during that skill's aftercast window. Another way to tackle the spamming of d. arch could be to split it in 2 flip-over skills where you first do a strike that cripples and if that hits the skills flips over to the back-role evasion part; this way players would not be able to get evasion by spamming the skill at nothing.
    Another thing to note is that at this time staff as a weapon is carried by this skill for both survival and non burst damage. This is due to it being the only easy to land fast attack on staff: weakening charge is super awkward to land on a non stationary target as it often leaves you spinning in place missing most of the strikes, dust strike is more a 'utility' weapon skill that has a niche use that does not do much against builds which have rapid & fast skills (mostly everything that is not core necro/some warrior builds), and vault is expensive to cast and is telegraphed.

    If the change of increased initiative is to go through at least consider lowering the cost of dust strike from 4 to 3 so that staff does not loose all of it's brawling power in a single hasty nerf.

    EDIT: also a clear target to nerf the staff/staff build is the quick pockets traits specifically since no other pvp/wvw builds use it at all.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    I'd also like to echo that changes shouldn't eliminate staff gameplay entirely, specifically targeting the "bug" with staff 3 (a mechanic) and the like, is a much better approach compared to arbitrarily changing values on skills.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I see. A quick fix now and a carefully planned change (more complex) for a later update.

    A little better sounding.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    I hope builds arnt nerfed soley due to being in monthly winning teams and cuz peeps are playing them cuz a viable build that is fun to play will present the same lol this is so awesome as I can already see how these new devs are gonna work out especially with this community having such a huge chunk that hate thieves out of bias and spam nerf threads on anything and every skill that's effective on thief lol. Be prepared for every viable thief build that see's play to "become a problem that needs fixed" this is gonna be great. U thief players might as well switch classes now lol

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I hope builds arnt nerfed soley due to being in monthly winning teams and cuz peeps are playing them cuz a viable build that is fun to play will present the same lol this is so awesome as I can already see how these new devs are gonna work out especially with this community having such a huge chunk that hate thieves out of bias and spam nerf threads on anything and every skill that's effective on thief lol. Be prepared for every viable thief build that see's play to "become a problem that needs fixed" this is gonna be great. U thief players might as well switch classes now lol

    What about ppl like YOU , that said that spec wont be shown in high competive game ... + saying that thief was underpowred with 2500 posts ?
    Sent me your gold , if you gonna play archage :)

    mod , i will grand you 5 months of peace
    but you will offer me 5 ''cookies'' to munch afterwards :P
    up until now i have less than 15 cookies eaten , because i am not trying to get fat

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    People like me can see past their own class and dont want builds that challenge me to be nerfed cuz I'm a baby lol. Thief was underpowered for yrs, u new? They were delegated to +1 and decaps cuz most duels except mesmer where in the other class favor, is that not underpowered? To be just used due to being able to move around the map a bit better wow awesome assassin design right there. Yeah staff build can bunker now which is what thief players were asking for for a long time, a bruisser build that can stay in a fight, same for condi s/d yeah unfortunately its low skill but atleast puts thief in a viable 1v1 state. They player base and the devs if they listen to player base will never let thief be anything more than +1 or mobility tool due to being complaining babies which is sad asf lol and no I like to jump into the game here and there for 1 match to experience its greatness so I'll hold onto my gold lol. But yeah I'll def be staying in AAU

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    People like me can see past their own class and dont want builds that challenge me to be nerfed cuz I'm a baby lol. Thief was underpowered for yrs, u new? They were delegated to +1 and decaps cuz most duels except mesmer where in the other class favor, is that not underpowered? To be just used due to being able to move around the map a bit better wow awesome assassin design right there. Yeah staff build can bunker know which is what thief players were asking for for a long time, a bruisser build that can stay in a fight, same for condi s/d yeah unfortunately its low skill but atleast puts thief in a viable 1v1 state. They player base and the devs if they listen to player base will never let their be anything more than +1 or mobility tool due to being complaining babies which is sad asf lol and no I like to jump into the game here and there for 1 match to experience its greatness lol. But yeah I'll def be staying in AAU

    Theres some ppl in the lifespan of 3 years
    , telling to other 300 to ''be quiet'' > whine about powercreep > leaving .
    The lifespan must be shortent , for those 300

    4 moths ago where was a video about a thief player using stuff and other Streamers in the Coliseum where avoid him , and you simply said that spec wont be shown in tournaments and its a troloollol build.
    And now you are telling that ppl always wanted a bunker spec ? ....

    mod , i will grand you 5 months of peace
    but you will offer me 5 ''cookies'' to munch afterwards :P
    up until now i have less than 15 cookies eaten , because i am not trying to get fat

  • dDuff.3860dDuff.3860 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd like to advocate for changes:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

    While I feel like 4 -> 6 might be overkill, but at least there's reasoning, I'd like to thank for bravery for doing this because staff/staff is super unfun to play against, neither takes skill to perform well. Fixing jump, imo wasn't that neccessary, considering there are other things that work like jump+staff 3. And at this point we can open pandora box (fix, please, backstab not hitting jumping target)
    4->5 would require a bit more in-depth analysis, like adjusting RFI, quick pockets and escapist's absolution. Where last isn't only staff tool, but also a tool for already "not that OP" d/p dash.

    By any chance, we're getting these fixes before Saturday's mAT?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    People like me can see past their own class and dont want builds that challenge me to be nerfed cuz I'm a baby lol. Thief was underpowered for yrs, u new? They were delegated to +1 and decaps cuz most duels except mesmer where in the other class favor, is that not underpowered? To be just used due to being able to move around the map a bit better wow awesome assassin design right there. Yeah staff build can bunker know which is what thief players were asking for for a long time, a bruisser build that can stay in a fight, same for condi s/d yeah unfortunately its low skill but atleast puts thief in a viable 1v1 state. They player base and the devs if they listen to player base will never let their be anything more than +1 or mobility tool due to being complaining babies which is sad asf lol and no I like to jump into the game here and there for 1 match to experience its greatness lol. But yeah I'll def be staying in AAU

    Theres some ppl in the lifespan of 3 years
    , telling to other 300 to ''be quiet'' > whine about powercreep > leaving .
    The lifespan must be shortent , for those 300

    4 moths ago where was a video about a thief player using stuff and other ppl in the Coliseum where avoid him , and you simply said that spec wont be shown in tournaments and its a troloollol build.
    And now you are telling that ppl always wanted a bunker spec ? ....

    Go to thief section and read top post starting pvp with thief. Read thief mains responses to the OP. Than tell me how op thief is. I love non thief players like u telling me how thief is fitting in the current game especially after I played it for 4 yrs strait lol it makes it even more fun cuz I care so little compared to in the past cuz I've moved on for the most part, now just pure entertainment lol

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    People like me can see past their own class and dont want builds that challenge me to be nerfed cuz I'm a baby lol. Thief was underpowered for yrs, u new? They were delegated to +1 and decaps cuz most duels except mesmer where in the other class favor, is that not underpowered? To be just used due to being able to move around the map a bit better wow awesome assassin design right there. Yeah staff build can bunker know which is what thief players were asking for for a long time, a bruisser build that can stay in a fight, same for condi s/d yeah unfortunately its low skill but atleast puts thief in a viable 1v1 state. They player base and the devs if they listen to player base will never let their be anything more than +1 or mobility tool due to being complaining babies which is sad asf lol and no I like to jump into the game here and there for 1 match to experience its greatness lol. But yeah I'll def be staying in AAU

    Theres some ppl in the lifespan of 3 years
    , telling to other 300 to ''be quiet'' > whine about powercreep > leaving .
    The lifespan must be shortent , for those 300

    4 moths ago where was a video about a thief player using stuff and other ppl in the Coliseum where avoid him , and you simply said that spec wont be shown in tournaments and its a troloollol build.
    And now you are telling that ppl always wanted a bunker spec ? ....

    Go to thief section and read top post starting pvp with thief. Read thief mains responses to the OP. Than tell me how op thief is. I live non thief players like u telling me how thief is fitting in the current game especially after I played I got 4 yrs strait lol it makes it even more fun cuz I care so little compared to in the past cuz I've moved on for the most part, now just pure entertainment lol

    Its entertainment for me too , i simply ''recharge'' my batteries :P

    mod , i will grand you 5 months of peace
    but you will offer me 5 ''cookies'' to munch afterwards :P
    up until now i have less than 15 cookies eaten , because i am not trying to get fat

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

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