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  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    The ini increase will kill the skill full stop, why use it now? The cost of thief skills are universally to high as it is hence the reliance on preparedness. I could be wrong but be prepared for thief being once again stripped of all 1v1 viability not that it had a lot and be delegated back to only +1 and decap right where the community wants it to be. I guarantee any thief build that arises that's a decent 1v1 with get massive nerf cry's regardless of whether its OP and I bet will be continually nerfed into non viability. Also a build being effective especially thief builds will always be "un fun" for players fighting it do to a rogues design and rogues are always top or near top of any most favorite class polls in mmo's due to theme so of course ur gonna see alot of any of the viable builds they have in MAT's. So there op if their common in MAT's? Unlike the other mainstay classes unless their there just to decap? Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    The ini increase will kill the skill full stop, why use it now? The cost of thief skills are universally to high as it is hence the reliance on preparedness. I could be wrong but be prepared for thief being once again stripped of all 1v1 viability not that it had a lot and be delegated back to only +1 and decap right where the community wants it to be. I guarantee any thief build that arises that's a decent 1v1 with get massive nerf cry's regardless of whether its OP and I bet will be continually nerfed into non viability. Also a build being effective especially thief builds will always be "un fun" for players fighting it do to a rogues design and rogues are always top or near top of any most favorite class polls in mmo's due to theme so of course ur gonna see alot of any of the viable builds they have in MAT's. So there op if their common in MAT's? Unlike the other mainstay classes unless their there just to decap? Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

    To be fair its not that the build is OP its not OP in anyway the damage is fairly minimal and easy to reduce in most cases the build does not kill you quickly.
    How ever if you look at staff 3 normally there is a small period after the roll back where the thief is going to get hit no matter how hard you are smashing that dodge button (assuming the attacker times their attacks correctly) as its got a weird aftercast on the roll back.
    Jumping removes this gap and still gives you the i frames which can be used to make the evades seem-less meaning you pretty much cannot get hit so long as you really know what you are doing.

    Considering you can be in for extended periods of time while dealing damage while avoiding damage the counterplay is minimal. About the only thing that counters this style of play is shocking aura and that in itself is super limited to ele / tempest.
    That said its not so much that its OP its more so that most people literally cannot fight it because you cant get hit for long periods of time. After about 20 seconds of evades and exchanging small bits of damage in most cases the person trying to attack you gets bored of you.

    Insta kill meta feels bad but the "nothing dies meta" (HoT ideally) was far worse.
    If the build had more counterplay options it would be fine. Its not that it does too much damage its that people just cant hit you. Your hold of the power role is too high in any given situation in this case.

    That said i think they should have just given it the ranger gs fix which was abused for the same reason.
    Simply doing one of the following would have probably been good enough. Cost increase is a bit much imo.

    • Fix the jump bug
      or

    • Staff 3 instead of evading gives you a few points endurance back

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

    Yea with this change any staff build will be consigned to oblivion, i mean just by looking at the skills and the proposed change you can see the major issue:
    increase the ini cost of d.arc to 6, ergo why would you ever use debilitating arc over vault when they have the same cost but vault deals much more dmg, is easier to cleave with, and can be used to close distance rather than to just create it. All this to say that staff as a weapon for daredevil will functionally have 4 skills instead of 5, that is nether good balance nor good design.
    This is a nerf born out of panic due to the player qq and is a bad one, not at all thought through, however i stand by what i said and staff/staff builds need some sort of change but that one specific build not every build using staff.

    As to what will happen i can tell you: daredevil has 2 more extremely potent builds that are being ignored just as staff dd was; one dueling build that deals a metric ton of damage and has lots of cc, and the other that is about +1 and hard burst and all about swipe (this one was made powerful due to swipe cd reduction and the new-ish even the odds trait).
    Both of these builds are superb for ranked ladder but nether is on meta battle despite both of them existing for well over ~2 years now, so the same story as staff dd.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    The feedback and concerns to the incoming changes are all valid, and I wanted to expand a bit more on why we ended up on the change that we did. Here's the situation that we were looking at:

    1) There's a clear problem with staff thief based on past tournament games and results
    2) There's another 'monthly' this weekend. We can expect more of the same comps if nothing changes
    3) We have a chance to get something into a hotfix.

    We absolutely want to fix the problem for the monthly, but working in a hotfix timeline limits the scope of what we we should do. The correct change in a perfect world is a combination of smaller adjustments to (not necessarily all of these at once) Escapist's Fortitude, Roll for Initiative, Quick Pockets, Staff Master, and Debilitating Arc. But because we're doing this as part of a hotfix, the most important consideration is doing something safe. More changes introduce more risk, so we want to limit ourselves to a single change, in addition to the bug fix. The straight initiative increase to Debilitating Arc looks like the highest impact option so that's what we went with. As for making it 6 vs 5 (or solely doing the bug fix), we have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

    So yes the change may be too heavy-handed, and yes there are better changes in the grand scheme of things than the one that was made. We will definitely be revisiting this for the next update, but in the immediate time-frame we had to work with we felt this was the best option available.

    First of all I'll like to thank you for the effort and work you have already started to do for the balance of the game and I'm very pleased to see you being active on the forums giving us all a proper explanation and a reason for the changes. I think the nerf is pretty big however it's 100% in the right direction needed in order to bring that spec down a bit.

    I'll like to know if we're gonna see these changes before the Monthly(this Saturday) or Tuesday coming up?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @foste.3098 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

    Yea with this change any staff build will be consigned to oblivion, i mean just by looking at the skills and the proposed change you can see the major issue:
    increase the ini cost of d.arc to 6, ergo why would you ever use debilitating arc over vault when they have the same cost but vault deals much more dmg, is easier to cleave with, and can be used to close distance rather than to just create it. All this to say that staff as a weapon for daredevil will functionally have 4 skills instead of 5, that is nether good balance nor good design.
    This is a nerf born out of panic due to the player qq and is a bad one, not at all thought through, however i stand by what i said and staff/staff builds need some sort of change but that one specific build not every build using staff.

    As to what will happen i can tell you: daredevil has 2 more extremely potent builds that are being ignored just as staff dd was; one dueling build that deals a metric ton of damage and has lots of cc, and the other that is about +1 and hard burst and all about swipe (this one was made powerful due to swipe cd reduction and the new-ish even the odds trait).
    Both of these builds are superb for ranked ladder but nether is on meta battle despite both of them existing for well over ~2 years now, so the same story as staff dd.

    All they need to do is remove the jump bug and change the ini gain on weapon swap to something else, something still worth taking. This way the staff/staff build has lower endurance gain and cant bunker as hard with as many evades but is still left with a decent build with above average evades as it should have. Ini increase is not needed and as I said thief is already to heavily reliant on preparedness due to lack of ini whether from to low of a ini baseline or cost of skills being to high, this just adds to a big issue thief has had since forever.

  • You got to be kidding me. Are people really crying about a game spec that can be voided by a block? I dont even play thief in pvp but apparently some people cant handle getting rekt by one? I dont think any change is gonna do any good, people will still cry for no reason. Here is some advice : Keep getting rekt by a thief? TRY WARRIOR ! Warrior rampage will slaughter a thief, so now in that case we should look forward to warriors rampage being taken away huh, LOL. I think this entire issue is a waste of the staff time as they should be working on things that actually matter. Tip of the Day: Stop crying and try something diff to counter your crying issues.. LIKE WARRIOR? Just a note from someone who couldnt care less about thief sense they dont rekt me. Dont botther replying, I wont see it sense i rarly touch these forums- for this reason, yall need to grow up and learn how to adapt.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    The feedback and concerns to the incoming changes are all valid, and I wanted to expand a bit more on why we ended up on the change that we did. Here's the situation that we were looking at:

    1) There's a clear problem with staff thief based on past tournament games and results
    2) There's another 'monthly' this weekend. We can expect more of the same comps if nothing changes
    3) We have a chance to get something into a hotfix.

    We absolutely want to fix the problem for the monthly, but working in a hotfix timeline limits the scope of what we we should do. The correct change in a perfect world is a combination of smaller adjustments to (not necessarily all of these at once) Escapist's Fortitude, Roll for Initiative, Quick Pockets, Staff Master, and Debilitating Arc. But because we're doing this as part of a hotfix, the most important consideration is doing something safe. More changes introduce more risk, so we want to limit ourselves to a single change, in addition to the bug fix. The straight initiative increase to Debilitating Arc looks like the highest impact option so that's what we went with. As for making it 6 vs 5 (or solely doing the bug fix), we have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

    So yes the change may be too heavy-handed, and yes there are better changes in the grand scheme of things than the one that was made. We will definitely be revisiting this for the next update, but in the immediate time-frame we had to work with we felt this was the best option available.

    I just hope it is no alt+ctrl+del, which most of the "adjustments" end-up for most builds. I can list a dozen builds (if not more) where you guys completely killed and never looked back.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.
    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

  • rowdy.5107rowdy.5107 Member ✭✭✭

    As a D/D SB condi thief. I have found that using SB #2 completely WRECKS staff thief. Once I realized this.. I haven't lost to a staff thief yet.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @rowdy.5107 said:
    As a D/D SB condi thief. I have found that using SB #2 completely WRECKS staff thief. Once I realized this.. I haven't lost to a staff thief yet.

    uve done somthing many fail to do. Most of this community's spends more time posting nerf threads than learning to fight builds that challenge theirs. God for bid a build poses a challenge to theirs.

  • rowdy.5107rowdy.5107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @rowdy.5107 said:
    As a D/D SB condi thief. I have found that using SB #2 completely WRECKS staff thief. Once I realized this.. I haven't lost to a staff thief yet.

    uve done somthing many fail to do. Most of this community's spends more time posting nerf threads than learning to fight builds that challenge theirs. God for bid a build poses a challenge to theirs.

    I just don't get why so many people cry about builds in this game. If there is a class somebody cant beat... its up to THEM to find a way to beat it.. its not Anets job to nerf stuff so lazy people can be happy.
    I was having such a hard time with staff thiefs. I couldn't figure out how to kill them. So I started trying different strategies. When I started using SB #2 it was catching the staff thief almost every single time. The dodges didn't matter. Started killing them every single time. Then I started using SB#2 against S/D thieves and it worked just as well.
    No need to nerf anything. These people need to learn to ADAPT because there is always something to counter something.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    DD traitline to be more specific was a bit of a buff to staff builds overshadowed by the silly swipe nerf in my eyes at least

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight? Without thief's increased evade uptime it be free food for classes with higher bursts, hp, armor, multiple blocks and invulnerability as a thief can't take a hit without losing most of its hp. The community cries about dps power creep and low ttk times, try having thief's sustain on top.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    U think other classes will get shorter end of stick come nerf time? I bet thief and mesmer will end up with shorter sticks in the end but we'll see
    Also I agree with the staff jump bug just not the ini increase.
    With that said what takes more skill? Just pressing staff 3 or staff three with a jump right after? I woulda removed the passive evade from the skill and made it so u had to combo it with jump to get the evade frame and if u dont than skill is just to gain distance. This game needs skillfull play implemented into skills and rotations not removed, it's going in the opposite direction of what the community spouts off that it wants. Maybe add combo bonuses for skillful rotations and make combo fields worth something again.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

    U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

    U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

    Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

  • rowdy.5107rowdy.5107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

    U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

    Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

    Every staff video ive seen, Staff thief gets squished after he uses up all his Ini and he fails to escape. Just like literally every other thief... Nothing different there.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @rowdy.5107 said:

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

    U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

    Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

    Every staff video ive seen, Staff thief gets squished after he uses up all his Ini and he fails to escape. Just like literally every other thief... Nothing different there.

    Well thats what happens when you use up all your defense being offensive. Same thing happens with condi thief should you happen to catch them after they spam evade around you should the conditions not kill you.

    But it really depends on the build and knowing how to balance endurance restoration with dodges and ini.
    That said there is no excuse for skill abuse to this level. The skill abuse was fine when it was rare to see it used but once it gets public and everyone under the sun starts using it abuse will not be tolerated. Thief is not the first class to fall victim to this.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

    U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

    Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

    Again I've played the build for yrs since bounding Dodger builds and even constant evade time of 60 secs real time is not possible so...huge exaggeration and hyperbole. People see a DD evading for like 15 sec real time and all the sudden they have infinite evades, can't be hit. Now they evade through the whole match time frame lol
    This right here is exactly what I'm talking about.
    Such good stuff.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @rowdy.5107 said:

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

    You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.
    This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.
    I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.
    If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

    Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

    U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

    Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

    Every staff video ive seen, Staff thief gets squished after he uses up all his Ini and he fails to escape. Just like literally every other thief... Nothing different there.

    Well thats what happens when you use up all your defense being offensive. Same thing happens with condi thief should you happen to catch them after they spam evade around you should the conditions not kill you.

    But it really depends on the build and knowing how to balance endurance restoration with dodges and ini.
    That said there is no excuse for skill abuse to this level. The skill abuse was fine when it was rare to see it used but once it gets public and everyone under the sun starts using it abuse will not be tolerated. Thief is not the first class to fall victim to this.

    But but that shouldn't happen cuz they have match long evade potential and literally can evade until they win all engagements right ;)

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    Did you guys even watch the monthly vids?
    You have to put the amount of evades in the right context, no class can put enough pressure for the thief to run out of evade frames so it is indeed the whole game long.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Any thief player that's played it as a main has used the staff/staff build or some iteration of it many times. To a non thief player it can seem like thief is evading a high amount of time during the fight and ur right it is compared to ur two dodges and maybe ur evade frame in a skill if u have one but I'd even be surprised to see a DD evade repeatedly over 20 sec real time. But u add in ur blocks, invulnerability, higher hp/armor etc the evade time isn't so op especially when they've dropped their deeps to do so. I've followed behind guards,warriors,holes,scrappers and to lesser extent soulbeast repeatedly attacking them while the timely use all their sustain options rendering them as unkillable as a staff thief. Especially guards and warriors and the dont give up nearly as much deeps as a bunker DD does.
    Again its thief so it needs to be tanked, nothing new lol.

  • rowdy.5107rowdy.5107 Member ✭✭✭

    All these thief threads are from people that die to thieves and are either too lazy to learn the mechanics or are using a class that shouldn't be trying to engage a thief in the first place.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guaranteed had build been left as is within what's left of the year people would learn to counter it and it be considered not viable competitively. People aren't used to seeing it so haven't gotten used to fighting it and dont want to cuz again, it's a thief spec.

  • Jekkt.6045Jekkt.6045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    That's exactly what the bug fix will achieve tho. both staff 5 and 3 have an aftercast that can be punished (without the jump bug). Yet, anet is willing to overnerf a build just to "make sure it doesn't get played in the next mAT" with plans to nerf the traits even more in a later patch, and maybe revert the ini change on staff 3.

    During the time i've played this game, thief has always gotten nerfed because people qq about the class more than anything else. are some nerfs justified? of course. is every nerf justified? absolutely not.

    at launch we had the signet and backstab nerfs, later came the d/d and s/d nerfs, after that the s/p nerfs followed by more s/d nerfs and d/p nerfs. when daredevil came out they nerfed pulmonary impact to oblivion, nerfed vault, nerfed the endurance regeneration. deadeye was just another fiasco.

    thief is build wise in a good spot right now. you have a rotationally strong build in s/d, a good? +1 build in d/p, a build that's capable of taking 1v1 in condi s/d and a tank build in st/st. half of that's going to be taken away, relegating thief back to a rotation tool.

    i'm not particularly attached to thief, i think it's a terrbily designed class, but i'm against removing builds that play differently, as thief builds up to now have always fallen in that "assassin" category.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @rowdy.5107 said:
    All these thief threads are from people that ... are using a class that shouldn't be trying to engage a thief in the first place.

    Just pointing out that ideally, this situation shouldn't exist. Classes should be able to counterplay all playstyles within their class at baseline whether that includes picking up a different weapon or trait build or not.

    EDIT: Also....wow. That hotfix is live. Like, now.

    That was quick.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.
    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Let's not pretend that staff staff is "somewhat viable." Like let's just stop right there. Chaining evade frames by abusing a bug should be fixed plain and simple. When a build hard counters entire classes (not just other builds), while 1v2 and 1v3, there is an OBVIOUS problem.

    Stop downplaying how abusive the spec is.

    Let's also stop pretending like this build is what is bringing thief into use at high levels, there are 4-5 builds I can think of off the top of my head (being core, dd, deadeye) that are all extremely powerful (and being used to win monthly tournaments). IDK what ur gameplan is but the constant downplaying of the build with some "lol" at the end isn't going to make ur case. You are doing EXACTLY what people before you, who had no idea what they were talking about, did and you can reference the OP to see it.

    This isn't about ranked games, which are completely meaningless and riddled with low skill players, win trading, throwing, leaderboard rank selling, etc. This is about ACTUAL games at what's left of the top tier of this game. Watch a monthly AT for once and understand what's going on. In another post u apparently have never even seen this in action since u think its impressive that it will evade chain (which can't be punished because of bug abuse) "for 20 seconds" well feel free to watch sindrener (repeated monthly tournament winner as a thief) vods or the NA mAT on jebro's.

    btw it's evade chaining for almost a minute straight not just in 1v1, but in 1v2 and 1v3. If u think thats fine idk what there is to say because u have a very jaded and misguided understanding of the game.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.
    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Let's not pretend that staff staff is "somewhat viable." Like let's just stop right there. Chaining evade frames by abusing a bug should be fixed plain and simple. When a build hard counters entire classes (not just other builds), while 1v2 and 1v3, there is an OBVIOUS problem.

    Stop downplaying how abusive the spec is.

    This isn't about ranked games, which are completely meaningless and riddled with low skill players. This is about ACTUAL games at what's left of the top tier of this game. Watch a monthly AT for once and understand what's going on.

    Chaining evade frame that cost 5 of 15 ini each time yeah it has a cost and cant chain for long. If it were me I'd keep the bug and remove the passive evade from the rollback and have it just be a low dps distance giving skill. May not require much skill to get the evade that way but at least it requires more than a press of button. To many aspects of the game skill wise is getting dumbed down. The game needs more skillful game play added not removed. Honestly I think I ran into 5 staff thieves in last two months of ranked. Reading these forums they make it seem their everywhere but I barely saw them lol
    The day staff thief is the big bad oh man lol

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight? Without thief's increased evade uptime it be free food for classes with higher bursts, hp, armor, multiple blocks and invulnerability as a thief can't take a hit without losing most of its hp. The community cries about dps power creep and low ttk times, try having thief's sustain on top.

    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.

    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

  • Well, the hotfix is in, and staff's gutted.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight? Without thief's increased evade uptime it be free food for classes with higher bursts, hp, armor, multiple blocks and invulnerability as a thief can't take a hit without losing most of its hp. The community cries about dps power creep and low ttk times, try having thief's sustain on top.

    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.

    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

    Double dagger?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • rowdy.5107rowdy.5107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.

    I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.
    I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

    Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.
    Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.
    The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

    Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

    I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

    But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight? Without thief's increased evade uptime it be free food for classes with higher bursts, hp, armor, multiple blocks and invulnerability as a thief can't take a hit without losing most of its hp. The community cries about dps power creep and low ttk times, try having thief's sustain on top.

    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.

    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

    You don't understand the condi D/D acro build. For 1... you have around 11k to 13k hp. So yes, you can easily tank physical damage. But you are exposed to burst condi dmg. If you cant cleanse in a hurry you are dead..
    Your physical damage is non-existant so you have to depend on your condi damage. So attacking a guard or an ele is the worst thing you can do. And if one runs up on you at a cap... You might as well just run away.
    This actual thief is very hard to play. 1 very tiny mess up and you are dead.
    I played this very build for over a year... Its not OP at all... has its strong sides. but it also has its weaknesses too.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    That's exactly what the bug fix will achieve tho. both staff 5 and 3 have an aftercast that can be punished (without the jump bug). Yet, anet is willing to overnerf a build just to "make sure it doesn't get played in the next mAT" with plans to nerf the traits even more in a later patch, and maybe revert the ini change on staff 3.

    Yes i dont agree with the point cost increase there was no reason for that. I think bug fixing it would have done enough and adjustment can be made after the fact if its still too much down the line.
    I think most people dont agree that the cost of the skill should have increased

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.
    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

    While your argument has several points that I'd push against, I hope you remember this explanation when condi mirage balancing is up on the block. The rationale you have for why things are unfair is correct, and I agree with it. Make sure, however, that you keep that same energy when the same explanation is leveled against condi mirage running staff/scepter.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Koen.1327 said:
    Did you guys even watch the monthly vids?
    You have to put the amount of evades in the right context, no class can put enough pressure for the thief to run out of evade frames so it is indeed the whole game long.

    There is really only one class in general that shuts that play style down and its not commonly used.
    Tempest or base ele with auras can shutdown evade dd staff thief quite easily using tools like shocking aura even more so with air magic using traits like bolt to the heart etc.

    That said thats only 1 class and elite that has a higher chance to counter-play it and its still on the thief to choose if they want to slap the aura covered ele. Not on the ele landing a precise stun.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.
    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

    While your argument has several points that I'd push against, I hope you remember this explanation when condi mirage balancing is up on the block. The rationale you have for why things are unfair is correct, and I agree with it. Make sure, however, that you keep that same energy when the same explanation is leveled against condi mirage running staff/scepter.

    i am ready for mirage to get gutted same way chrono did, soon we will all run core mesmer and laught at people complaining still.
    staff staff thief is kitten. Whenever i see one, I avoid it. no matter the build i play no matter how good oponent is, the correct thing to do is to walk away. thats the problem, I dont really care all that much about broken specs, just laught when peeps really think that some of this broken stuff they can do is fine.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.
    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

    While your argument has several points that I'd push against, I hope you remember this explanation when condi mirage balancing is up on the block. The rationale you have for why things are unfair is correct, and I agree with it. Make sure, however, that you keep that same energy when the same explanation is leveled against condi mirage running staff/scepter.

    i am ready for mirage to get gutted same way chrono did, soon we will all run core mesmer and laught at people complaining still.
    staff staff thief is kitten. Whenever i see one, I avoid it. no matter the build i play no matter how good oponent is, the correct thing to do is to walk away. thats the problem, I dont really care all that much about broken specs, just laught when peeps really think that some of this broken stuff they can do is fine.

    It amazes me how often we can keep visiting the situation where a class can contest a point so adequately on its own that it requires a +1 to even make them consider leaving, but people keep accepting that situation once it applies to their main. Bunker meta is bad, no matter what class it favors.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.
    wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

    While your argument has several points that I'd push against, I hope you remember this explanation when condi mirage balancing is up on the block. The rationale you have for why things are unfair is correct, and I agree with it. Make sure, however, that you keep that same energy when the same explanation is leveled against condi mirage running staff/scepter.

    i am ready for mirage to get gutted same way chrono did, soon we will all run core mesmer and laught at people complaining still.
    staff staff thief is kitten. Whenever i see one, I avoid it. no matter the build i play no matter how good oponent is, the correct thing to do is to walk away. thats the problem, I dont really care all that much about broken specs, just laught when peeps really think that some of this broken stuff they can do is fine.

    It amazes me how often we can keep visiting the situation where a class can contest a point so adequately on its own that it requires a +1 to even make them consider leaving, but people keep accepting that situation once it applies to their main. Bunker meta is bad, no matter what class it favors.

    hmm, i remember when I started pvp, went to mettabatle, chronotank was "meta" apparently. oh and kitten boy were they wrong lol. autolose against every single sidenoder xd.
    remember good old scrapper vs chrono on far node. both did 0 dmg, but I lose becouse sometimes he knocks me off for 1s, and sometimes i have to disort to mitigate damage, so slowly, slowly I lose node xd. That scrapper build made me not want to play ever again, im glad its gone. and im kinda scared whenever they make changes to scraper. flashback from vietnam :D

  • I really don't understand how people can defend this build without showing extreme bias towards their class or being disingenuous about its effectiveness and 99% lack of counterplay.

    Removing the Staff-3 bug is good. Upping the initiative is probably too much, but as CMC stated, this is an emergency fix for what is an incredibly busted build. Staff DrD apologists would do well to remember Chaotic Interruption and be glad their build wasn't completely deleted pending a lackluster rework. Imagine having a trait simply disabled until further notice.

    This isn't simply forum qq. How many top players need to describe the same problem? How many videos need to document it? It's all there for anyone who's willing to be reasonable and objective.

    I do hope that Anet reworks this build by fine tuning the various traits that make it too much, without removing it or any other builds from viability. They should also revert the increased initiative cost if appropriate. But until then, something needed to be done about this build. The hotfix may not be ideal, but the prompt attention is a step in the right direction.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Guaranteed had build been left as is within what's left of the year people would learn to counter it and it be considered not viable competitively. People aren't used to seeing it so haven't gotten used to fighting it and dont want to cuz again, it's a thief spec.

    That spec existed far longer .
    And we have ppl like you that whined about Warriors , which is from the same period as Thiefs
    And you left for archage , but you are ok with theif spec driving away other players ....

    (and i the bad , racking up infractions...)

    mod , i will grand you 5 months of peace
    but you will offer me 5 ''cookies'' to munch afterwards :P
    up until now i have less than 15 cookies eaten , because i am not trying to get fat

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Guaranteed had build been left as is within what's left of the year people would learn to counter it and it be considered not viable competitively. People aren't used to seeing it so haven't gotten used to fighting it and dont want to cuz again, it's a thief spec.

    That spec existed far longer .
    And we have ppl like you that whined about Warriors , which is from the same period as Thiefs
    And you left for archage , but you are ok with theif spec driving away other players ....

    (and i the bad , racking up infractions...)

    I actually like warriors in this game, I use them as comparisons and I know how long staff/staff thief and bounding Dodger builds have been out for yet until just last couple months it's a problem. The gw2 community has always had a mob mentality. As soon as a few post are up about a build being OP anytime a player gets beat by it they post one and so on. Again are u new cuz I'm not, been this way forever and is part of the reason the games balance is all over the place. I remember playing staff couple yrs back almost exclusively in wvw and pvp and almost seemed like I was the only one as most people thought it was garbage but now it's the ultimate weapon with a few tweaks lmao never gets old.

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Guaranteed had build been left as is within what's left of the year people would learn to counter it and it be considered not viable competitively. People aren't used to seeing it so haven't gotten used to fighting it and dont want to cuz again, it's a thief spec.

    That spec existed far longer .
    And we have ppl like you that whined about Warriors , which is from the same period as Thiefs
    And you left for archage , but you are ok with theif spec driving away other players ....

    (and i the bad , racking up infractions...)

    I actually like warriors in this game, I use them as comparisons and I know how long staff/staff thief and bounding Dodger builds have been out for yet until just last couple months it's a problem. The gw2 community has always had a mob mentality. As soon as a few post are up about a build being OP anytime a player gets beat by it they post one and so on. Again are u new cuz I'm not, been this way forever and is part of the reason the games balance is all over the place. I remember playing staff couple yrs back almost exclusively in wvw and pvp and almost seemed like I was the only one as most people thought it was garbage but now it's the ultimate weapon with a few tweaks lmao never gets old.

    You were jumping from WvWvW to PvP threads , saying that ''i havent played Condition or Stuff , but i beat with with my S/D''
    Also it wont work in competive enviroment and the rest of the casuals should sulk it up .
    Whined to the company for creating Warrior + Mirage and giving them more burst than theifs , and you urged ppl to move to archage .
    But for some reason you ok with other ppl leaving , as long as your spec doesnt get nerfed

    Have you thought for a sec , that players like YOU created these powercreep ?
    Theifs before you sad +done the same thing .... and the newer Theifs will do the same

    (find a ratio defense vs attack , and each objective captured offers 5% increase damage/healing (no toughness) + 2% to the opponent to speeed things ingame like moba ,
    or ''teleporting throught the Mist's schock is fading slowly'' , giving them back their powers )

    mod , i will grand you 5 months of peace
    but you will offer me 5 ''cookies'' to munch afterwards :P
    up until now i have less than 15 cookies eaten , because i am not trying to get fat

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Guaranteed had build been left as is within what's left of the year people would learn to counter it and it be considered not viable competitively. People aren't used to seeing it so haven't gotten used to fighting it and dont want to cuz again, it's a thief spec.

    That spec existed far longer .
    And we have ppl like you that whined about Warriors , which is from the same period as Thiefs
    And you left for archage , but you are ok with theif spec driving away other players ....

    (and i the bad , racking up infractions...)

    I actually like warriors in this game, I use them as comparisons and I know how long staff/staff thief and bounding Dodger builds have been out for yet until just last couple months it's a problem. The gw2 community has always had a mob mentality. As soon as a few post are up about a build being OP anytime a player gets beat by it they post one and so on. Again are u new cuz I'm not, been this way forever and is part of the reason the games balance is all over the place. I remember playing staff couple yrs back almost exclusively in wvw and pvp and almost seemed like I was the only one as most people thought it was garbage but now it's the ultimate weapon with a few tweaks lmao never gets old.

    You were jumping from WvWvW to PvP threads , saying that ''i havent played Condition or Stuff , but i beat with with my S/D''
    Also it wont work in competive enviroment and the rest of the casuals should sulk it up .
    Whined to the company for creating Warrior and giving them more burst than theifs , and you urged ppl to move to archage .
    But for some reason you ok with other ppl leaving , as long as your spec doesnt get nerfed

    Have you thought for a sec , that players like YOU created these powercreep ?
    Theifs before you sad +done the same thing .... and the newer Theifs will do the same

    (find a ratio defense vs attack , and each objective captured offers 5% increase damage/healing (no toughness) + 2% to the opponent to speeed things ingame like moba)

    Wow ur reaching for a pathetic attempts here bud to prove what? I have taken down many DD staff builds as I've played mostly s/d power and condi s/d but I've played thief t yrs lol I've played alot of staff to, almost for a yr strait so not sure what ur spouting off here? And no I dont find them problematic. yeah I've stated warriors have the same burst as the rogue in this game which is definitely outa whack, doesnt mean I dont like warrior as if u go to warrior threads ull see I posted asking questions like 5 months ago and was gonna swap from maining thief to warrior so..... I donno what to tell u.

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @foste.3098 said:
    @Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107
    staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.
    But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

    i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

    as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

    if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

    This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

    So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?
    The issue is not that it can 1v1

    The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.
    People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.
    If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

    No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

    My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.
    So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.
    Good stuff!

    Let's not pretend that staff staff is "somewhat viable." Like let's just stop right there. Chaining evade frames by abusing a bug should be fixed plain and simple. When a build hard counters entire classes (not just other builds), while 1v2 and 1v3, there is an OBVIOUS problem.

    Stop downplaying how abusive the spec is.

    This isn't about ranked games, which are completely meaningless and riddled with low skill players. This is about ACTUAL games at what's left of the top tier of this game. Watch a monthly AT for once and understand what's going on.

    Chaining evade frame that cost 5 of 15 ini each time yeah it has a cost and cant chain for long. If it were me I'd keep the bug and remove the passive evade from the rollback and have it just be a low dps distance giving skill. May not require much skill to get the evade that way but at least it requires more than a press of button. To many aspects of the game skill wise is getting dumbed down. The game needs more skillful game play added not removed. Honestly I think I ran into 5 staff thieves in last two months of ranked. Reading these forums they make it seem their everywhere but I barely saw them lol
    The day staff thief is the big bad oh man lol

    You seem to either willfully ignore the points made to your or they simply escape you. "Skillful" play isn't bug abuse to prevent yourself from being pressured. I'd argue that making use of a non bug abused staff 3 would be MORE skillful, since it can't be chained with zero frames of vulnerability.

    Again, no one cares at all about ranked, the fact that you continue to divert to it proves that you have no idea and no real context as to the efficacy of the build.

    AGAIN, feel free to watch MONTHLY TOURNAMENT vods.

    This was the problem with the build https://clips.twitch.tv/ArtisticFairJamBlargNaut this person is spamming everything they have and its nearly 40 seconds of evade frames. That's not even using the most survivable form of the build BTW. If this person were playing the build seriously (aka not spamming until they have no cds left) you would be seeing minutes on end where a point is either neutral or capped in the thief's favor with no viable recourse from the vast majority of classes and builds.

    That is unacceptable and you need to get over it, you seem to have a real big ego that "I don't have any problems with staff thief I beat them all the time even though I never see them because all I do is play ranked."

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    Open to attack: 39 seconds to 37 seconds
    33-32
    31-29
    X to 27 (he's looking away)
    26-25
    24-23
    21-19
    18-15
    10-9
    6- End

    Stellar playerbase, just stellar.

    i see 20 seconds where u can 1 hit that thief.

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