Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP - Page 9 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

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  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    This is what i was thinking how can one complain about projectile reflects/blocks when that effects every projectile including staff projectiles which kind of negates the whole purpose as to calling them out.

    I dont understand how someone can be so justified to tell me i dont know anything about x profession and should not respond by someone who is ideally passively suggesting that their weapons projectiles should not be reflectable or blockable per is the standard for most projectiles in the game. As well as the fact that they dont have time to wait out conditions while playing one of the best high pressure high application condition set ups the game has to offer in competitive right now. This is a bit mind numbing to me.

    Did you see many melee weapon who are projectiles ?
    Rev have one, gard have 2, ele has some on his pyrothecnic fiesta cycle, that"s it and they do way more damage with their no-ranged skill than mesmer does.

    Come on about "high pressure high application condition set ups" give me number please.
    Are we talking about :

    • 261, 194 (388 if moving), 783 + 582(1164 if moving) condi damage on auto ? Look at other class auto please.
    • 1,164 (2328 if moving) on a slow and short melee skill 2 ?
    • Maximum 6 confusion stack : 270 (1086 if casting.) on skill 3 (who fail half time if the target is moving btw.) ?
    • Maximum 2328 (4656 if moving) on ambush (with the axe trait.) ? It seems fine , in practise if you are against more than one opponent, they didn't hit the same guys, it has 630 range and has an obvious animation like every ambush.

    If you think that you reach the best condi build with this, let me see your play please, I want to learn about it.
    This is a bit mind numbing to me too if you want to know.

    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )

    The 2 skill from gardian sword do pretty well damage, is a gap closer and pop a hitting hard symbol. Mean in one clic you do the same damage than 3 mesmer clics while having a shorter animation. Hopefully the block is ranged.

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Confession: I never stopped playing axe, even after it was heavily nerfed and made clunkier (not only did they severely nerf damage, they made it so you have to turn and face your target for the ambush to activate). Still playing axe today, mostly because I find the active, though riskier playstyle 100x more fun than passive staff play which I find extremely boring. Fun > rating for me.

    Just bumping this in agreement. I respect active mirage mains that can use Axe fearlessly, doubly so if they're power oriented.

    Yeah me too I respect the guys who play nude with only a weapon set so I can kill it easily. <3
    Thanks for this intervention.

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Confession: I never stopped playing axe, even after it was heavily nerfed and made clunkier (not only did they severely nerf damage, they made it so you have to turn and face your target for the ambush to activate). Still playing axe today, mostly because I find the active, though riskier playstyle 100x more fun than passive staff play which I find extremely boring. Fun > rating for me.

    Just bumping this in agreement. I respect active mirage mains that can use Axe fearlessly, doubly so if they're power oriented.

    I just hope all the soon-to-be-nerfed staff Mirages don't bandwagon and get my axe nerfed more or make the playerbase wise to it. Right now its main advantage might be the element of surprise.^^

    Don't worry I doubt a mirage will reach plat3 while playing axe next patch.

    @bravan.3876 is cool defending axe but he play this probably 2,3 time for fun, probably not enough to see this limitations. I recently give it a try in preparation to next patch, it work well on pillar but really bad on moving target.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    Nop, I hope for a less ground bugged on skill 3 and more impact on skill 2 (damag and distance.), even if it implies nerf the ambush.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:
    Yeah me too I respect the guys who play nude with only a weapon set so I can kill it easily. <3

    If Axe is bad -damage wise- we can buff it. My point was that I respect players that can balance risky aggressive play and have success with it instead of what condi scepter/staff is right now.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi again,
    Updates to the previous list:

    • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
    • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

    We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

    I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

    For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:

    • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
    • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
    • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
    • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
    • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
    • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
    • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
    • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
    • Purity of Purpose : Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is nuts.
    • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
    • Lock On : Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
    • Overcharged Shot : Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

    Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up.

    The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

    This honestly seems like a more thought out holo tune down imo

    +1 for this, especially what is bolded above.
    I'm fine with the prismatic change if purity of purpose gets adjusted as noted.
    I wouldn't hit heat therapy and healing turret at the same time though. I'm not 100% on board with the nerf to healing turret because of its implications on core. Still thinking about that.
    What is bolded however, absolutely.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi again,
    Updates to the previous list:

    • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
    • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

    We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

    I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

    For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:

    • Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.
    • Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.
    • Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.
    • Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.
    • Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.
    • Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.
    • Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.
    • Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.
    • Purity of Purpose : Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is nuts.
    • Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.
    • Lock On : Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.
    • Overcharged Shot : Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

    Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up.

    The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

    This honestly seems like a more thought out holo tune down imo

    +1 for this, especially what is bolded above.
    I'm fine with the prismatic change if purity of purpose gets adjusted as noted.
    I wouldn't hit heat therapy and healing turret at the same time though. I'm not 100% on board with the nerf to healing turret because of its implications on core. Still thinking about that.
    What is bolded however, absolutely.

    I wonder if its possible to have holo act a specific way in regards to hturret like for just that spec healing from blasting the water field is significantly reduced or somthing along those lines

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo is only able to really be as obscene as it is because utilities like elixir s allow it to rarely, if ever, be vulnerable.

    @reikken.4961 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    Holo is only able to really be as obscene as it is because utilities like elixir s allow it to rarely, if ever, be vulnerable.

    That and heal turret, which I think is an even bigger offender. Shorter cast time than almost any other heal skill in the game, making it virtually impossible to interrupt, while being actually even stronger than average and with a shorter than average cooldown. It's always enabled engineer to get away with things other classes can't.

    Everyone is focusing on the core engi sustain skills, but those skills were in the game for years and years and were mostly balanced. They certainly weren't game-breaking (elixir, turret), and they already faced nerfs.

    Why are they suddenly a problem on Holo? Simple. Holo gets ridiculous damage + CC for free with its elite spec and gives up basically nothing to get it.

    When core engi or scrapper had above-average sustain, it was fine because they didn't have much damage pressure for the opponent. Thus, fights were a more drawn-out affair where the engi tried to gradually win through CC and attrition. Holo gets to have all that sustain and damage too.

    So is the problem with Healing Turret and Elixir S?

    No!

    The problem is Photon Forge and its lack of any meaningful tradeoff.

    Yes those skills were in the game for years and years. This does not mean they were balanced or healthy for the game. Can you recall a single meta where a non-bunker engi was NOT using elixir S? Don't forget that if they revamp the skills you will get something else new and exciting to play with.

    It's worth mentioning that a lot of skills from core are not the same now as then, for example elixir U never had stab and the toss used to give either Wall of Reflection or Smokescreen which I actually liked. In fact the proposed changes to elixir U make it much closer to core in terms of utility.

    Edit: So the point is just because the skill or trait is core it doesn't make it immune to nerfs as many have been buffed up to the power level we have now because of the silly idea of "buff stuff up instead of nerfing".

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019
    • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

    Absolutely great changes. I was waiting for when Heat Therapy would finally be targeted. The heal on that was absolutely insane for how spammable photon forge is. Photon Wall is also a good change. It was basically a super charged DH F3.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @coro.3176 said:
    Elixir S is not overtuned in the slightest. 3s invuln (where you can't do anything else) on a 60s cooldown is far from OP. The toolbelt skill is 5s stealth on a 45s cooldown. Again, far from OP. Nerfing that by over 50% is just crazy. You can't realistically set up a play or escape from anything in 2s of stealth. The only thing it would be doing at that duration would be a quick target-break - basically useless.

    Healing Turret is not overtuned. It's very good as far as healing skills go, but it's not the best. Most of the things people complain about come from the water combos, but those don't come for free. You get one blast with the turret, but every other blast or combo means you are using other cooldowns to heal yourself.

    Again, I maintain that the problem is Photon Forge. If you think Healing Turret and Elixir S and Overcharged Shot(Rifle) are OP, I invite you to try a core build with those skills and see how far they get you in PvP.

    Elixir S toolbelt is a 6 second stealth on a 29 second cooldown on the meta Tools Holo build. Asides from the fact that 6 seconds of stealth is incredibly long... this single toolbelt skills gives more than a 1/5 uptime on a near-uninterruptible .5s cast time with an extremely minor animation.

    Healing Turret is probably the best healing skill in the game. It's a water field/condi clear on a 13 second cooldown that can be comboed with many other skills.

    The nerf to Heat Therapy is not enough. 25% reduction on 652 hps is still 489 hps... that's still more than a warrior gets from Healing Signet (by over 100 hps) and Holos get it passively through a minor trait just by BEING a Holosmith. Not to mention that each dodge roll will still heal them for 600 health (rather than 800) with Vent Exhaust... Heat Therapy needs to be cut to 1/3 of it's current value (65 to 22) otherwise the nerfs aren't going to make a noticeable difference.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @coro.3176 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    Elixir S is not overtuned in the slightest. 3s invuln (where you can't do anything else) on a 60s cooldown is far from OP. The toolbelt skill is 5s stealth on a 45s cooldown. Again, far from OP. Nerfing that by over 50% is just crazy. You can't realistically set up a play or escape from anything in 2s of stealth. The only thing it would be doing at that duration would be a quick target-break - basically useless.

    Healing Turret is not overtuned. It's very good as far as healing skills go, but it's not the best. Most of the things people complain about come from the water combos, but those don't come for free. You get one blast with the turret, but every other blast or combo means you are using other cooldowns to heal yourself.

    Again, I maintain that the problem is Photon Forge. If you think Healing Turret and Elixir S and Overcharged Shot(Rifle) are OP, I invite you to try a core build with those skills and see how far they get you in PvP.

    Elixir S toolbelt is a 6 second stealth on a 29 second cooldown on the meta Tools Holo build. Asides from the fact that 6 seconds of stealth is incredibly long... this single toolbelt skills gives more than a 1/5 uptime on a near-uninterruptible .5s cast time with an extremely minor animation.

    Healing Turret is probably the best healing skill in the game. It's a water field/condi clear on a 13 second cooldown that can be comboed with many other skills.

    The nerf to Heat Therapy is not enough. 25% reduction on 652 hps is still 489 hps... that's still more than a warrior gets from Healing Signet (by over 100 hps) and Holos get it passively through a minor trait just by BEING a Holosmith. Not to mention that each dodge roll will still heal them for 600 health (rather than 800) with Vent Exhaust... Heat Therapy needs to be cut to 1/3 of it's current value (65 to 22) otherwise the nerfs aren't going to make a noticeable difference.

    If you're factoring in the cooldown reduction and duration extension traits, then sure. But then the problem is with those traits, not the base skills.

    I don't know where you're getting 13s healing turret from. It's 15 if you pick it up, which you can only do by forgoing the turret blast and giving up a chunk of it's built-in heal power. You also can't reliably pick it up when moving because it needs some non-negligible number of milliseconds to get its overcharge off after deploying. The vast majority of the time it's going to be a 20s cd heal that is vulnerable to being cleaved down mid-cast. That's still good, but not OP.

    Heat therapy should not exist. If anything, it could be doing a small amount of damage to the holo instead of healing. Then holo might have a real tradeoff for being able to access Photon Forge's damage + CC.

    Ah yeah I guess so. The cooldown shows 14 then goes 13 after but yeah maybe it's a 15s cd. Either way, still very strong for the condition removal and blast/finisher potential.

    Anyways I have stuff to do so I'm not really looking to get into a big discussion over this stuff. I might check back in a few days to see if CMC said anything about Lock On, Heat Therapy, adding an animation to rifle 4 so that it's not an instant cc in melee range, etc. etc.

    Holo definitely needs more nerfs than it's getting. My suggestions are here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1079913#Comment_1079913

    In that post, I list everything that's making Tools Holo overperform currently and suggest ways to reduce their overall effectiveness while still rendering them viable in the current meta. It's up to CMC and the rest of the balancing team to do what they want with that.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nocta.5274 said:
    I agree on the sentiment for Lock On. It's a very unfun trait to fight on Stealth classes.
    Reveal need to exist in the game, but it should be about specific skills with cooldowns, not " I randomly swing and do aoe and any hit will reveal the guy ".

    To be fair, you're mostly swinging wildly anyway or doing PBAoEs.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    While I can't agree with some changes, I do appreciate the current active approach. Keep it up.

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @""Cal Cohen.2358"

    Hey man, first off really loving the communication, actually today I did my placements to becuase I was so hyped. I have have some questions if you could find the time to answer a few of them.

    First off some ranger questions,
    whats with the command/shout skill change? Is there something is there some future patch planned for ranger? Because all that did was make WS trait line even a more must pick for for any ranger build for PvP/wvw.

    Also whats up with soulb mh dagger? Its pretty underwellming for pvp and had been talked about at nauseouiam on the ranger forums, and any plans for druid? Right now its almost non existent in pvp and could use a rework/clear design idea beyond burst heal bot.

    Finally please please tone down the Instant CC its not fun to get super ccd and cant react to it because of crazy burst and chainned CC.

  • ZolracAtrox.2908ZolracAtrox.2908 Member ✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    Just make me a favor. (This isn't a personal attack, this is an opinion of disagreement of how you nerf some traits in all game modes for "Try to fix it in PvP only")
    I know this is a PvP post, but YOU ARE NERFING HOLOSMITH IN PVE WHEN U NERF IT IN PVP (CofCof, Overheating and toolbelt, Holographic wave range in PvE, Corona Burst Stab when you don't hit a opponent, etc)

    So pls, nerf him in PvP only. Its incredible how did you make a class completely useless in PvE and broken in PvP.
    I'm gonna repeat this again NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO PLAY DH OR WEAVER as a meta dps class.
    NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO PLAY CONDI MIRAGE / RENEGADE as a condi class
    Oh, and don't take the WvW's Support Scrapper Sustain utilities, jesus christ. Only - nerf- the -pvp-holo - traits.

    And well, I must say that it was a great idea how lately they open threads to discuss balancing changes, I mean, you can know what is not right in the game thanks to the players themselves. But you must be careful with people who obviously speak from resentment towards a class (Like the guy who said that "You must delete ALL ENGI'S SUSTAIN SKILLS AND TRAITS AND PROBLY IT WON'T BE ENOUGH"; Excuse me? Do you now what other variant of the engineer has a lot of damage in pvp, but thanks to its complete lack of sustain, is it probably the worst core class of the game? Oh, exactly, Core Engi)

  • FtoPScrub.5476FtoPScrub.5476 Member ✭✭✭

    In regards to the changes outlined here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91782/upcoming-changes-to-fall-damage-and-revival#latest

    Specifically,

    Protective Reviver: This trait no longer increases revival speed and no longer grants boons on a successful revival. Fixed skill fact to show correct 3 second duration. Fixed a bug which prevented the recharge of Lesser Shield of Absorption from being affected by Stalwart Defender. Lesser Shield of Absorption now heals nearby allies when it ends. This trait now causes all versions of Shield of Absorption to revive allies by 15% when it detonates.

    15% seems very strong, especially considering you can double bubble for 30% res. Perhaps consider a split here? 5% seems fine in PvP, given you also lose the revive speed.

    Courageous Return: This trait has been reworked and it has been renamed to "Stalwart Courage". It grants the guardian Protection for 3 seconds whenever aegis on the guardian is removed due to blocking an attack.

    At first glance this seems like a very promising change to Core Guard and DH, both specs that can probably use it, but it will likely be more useful for Support FB(not symbol FB, since symbol FB doesn't take Valor) who can spam way more consistent aegis than either of these. If there is no ICD on this, it would definitely be too strong, but an ICD of 10/15s would be a very nice change for DH/Core. Perhaps consider compounding it with FB nerfs to even it out there.

  • memausz.7264memausz.7264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    Updates to the previous list:

    • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
    • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

    We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

    Can you please make Photonic Blast Module viable in PvP? It's worthless as a trait because it punishes you for doing what it asks!
    Can you please buff Coolant Blast, the healing is too little compared to the other healing classes, or at least get rid of the self-burning Cauterize does.
    I think the Heat Therapy nerf is excessive, personally. If you believe holosmiths heal too much, add a second to Holo Leap so there are fewer opportunities to leap combo through water fields.

    And someone's gotta control those spellbreakers with their magebane tethers that literally last longer than the invuln duration of Mist Form on elementalists and Elixir S on engineer; if not holosmith, then you're really limited on options... condi thief? Going to be nerfed. Condi mirage? Going to be nerfed. Soulbeast? It's range is there, true, that's about it. Scourge can't do it as well post nerf.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    Come on about "high pressure high application condition set ups" give me number please.

    Do note when i say high pressure high application condition setup im talking about the mirage staff IH build that is one of the most common builds mirages will run.

    You want me to give you numbers based on staff which has a chance to inflict 1 of 3 different random conditions on the auto attacks alone which bounces and is thrown back and forth from the caster and his/her clones with complete accuracy?
    Do you know how impractical this really is to perform which is one of the main issues with staff from the start. How can i give you numbers on something thats not static. The pressure applied from staff is passively static in the sense that it can always be applying conditions so long as the target is in range. What is not static is which condition is inflicted which can lead to situations of low, moderate, or high damage being taken. The ambush attack is static as all 3 conditions are applied every time but the autos are not. Chaos storm damage is not static as it also inflicts random procs. Chaos arura is also random and not static. Looking at the rng factors on this weapon alone its not possible for anyone to produce accurate numbers down to a fine detail. This is not even including factors like if you are alone vs when you are not. You can probably produce an average number between the high and low point but you are literally asking me for something thats not reasonably feasible to produce. I dont even think you could factually produce this in a realistic situation as you would need to do multiple or dozens of situations if not more because of the RNG of the conditions being applied at any given time.

    Im also not sure how numbers alone show high pressure numbers show max or minimum potential (if everything goes perfect and you land everything without anyone dodging anything) thats all numbers alone show. im not sure why you are pulling the numbers card so often i mean i understand the idea of looking at maximum potential but that has nothing to do with high application or high pressure playstyles. Even in those you likely wont hit every single thing.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.


    Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    If we are going to discuss the balance of classes in PvP, why not include the balancing of (ranked) matches as well? I mainly refer to duo queuing. In addition the following question: "Is it planned in any form and future to prevent two duo's from playing on one side and none on the other? In my opinion this should not happen, or at least only if there are two duo's on the other side. In general, it should behave in such a way that the groups are set up "equally" - shouldn't it?

    o/

    Mike O Brien: "(...) We make this game for you".
    Source: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/586426#Comment_586426

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.
    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.
    Is rev weapon condi based? no its insta burst. Is it a projectile that can be just domed by fb or ele and made useless for several sec? no its not.
    i listed SEVERAL BIG problems axe has, 1 of them alone doesnt make weapon bad.
    example : warriors GS is a melee weapon. doesnt make it bad. if it was melee, and projectile based, and condi based, and on top of that it would glich out and spasm around then yes, it would be bad.

    and you STILL dont get what I mean, axes track clones, pets, same with illusions ETC, its a weakness of the weapon, BIG one. this alone doesnt make it bad but ALL OF THE COMBINED does. im not whining for it to be changed, other weapons have this issue too ( but to lesser extent )

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @ZDragon.3046 said :
    You want me to give you numbers based on staff which has a chance to inflict 1 of 3 different random conditions on the auto attacks alone which bounces and is thrown back and forth from the caster and his/her clones with complete accuracy?

    I already give you the number in the max potential case with staff in this thread (+ considering them as direct damage to boost the damage.).

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    You can't avoid rush by just normally running. Rush does more damage than axe 3.
    Deaths charge has double hit radius than axe 3. Deaths charge does more damage than axe 3.
    Burning speed does more damage than axe 3 and have double hit radius.
    Rush, deaths charge and swoop didn't fail as much as axe 3 can does thanks to ground bugs.
    Rush, deaths charge, swoop and burning speed recalibrate to the target during the rush meanwhile axe 3 will fail miserably if the target is randomly moving in the opposite direction the axe 3 port you.
    With skill like rush, you can cast it from behind a pillard, it will round around the pillar to hit the target meanwhile axe 3 will fail if the target is 2 cm on a ramp.
    So NO, it's not like other skills at all !

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    you know that's a big difference in being melee being a mesmer and being a warrior right?
    the warrior can face tank anyone while a mesmer will need to waste the dodge and run away to not get one shoted
    the axe mirage will hit for 2k while a warrior will hit for 10k
    now mirage with a sword have 1s blur plus dodge plus ambush to daze so he can have more inv time

    that's why axe are bad

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    you know that's a big difference in being melee being a mesmer and being a warrior right?

    I do and i understand that

    the warrior can face tank anyone while a mesmer will need to waste the dodge and run away to not get one shoted

    Warrior i dont think can face tank anyone no thats not correct a warrior who does this brainlessly will pretty much just die. Facts lol.

    the axe mirage will hit for 2k while a warrior will hit for 10k

    power weapon vs condi weapon??? skill with 2 ammo vs a skill with 1???
    or are you also applying the condition ???

    now mirage with a sword have 1s blur plus dodge plus ambush to daze so he can have more inv time
    that's why axe are bad

    This statement just confuses me all together lol

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.
    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

    sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.
    the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..
    and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

    sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.

    LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
    Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
    You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D

    the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..

    no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.

    and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.

    No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
    🤔👌🥶

    I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

    sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.

    LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
    Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
    You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D

    the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..

    no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.

    and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.

    No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
    🤔👌🥶

    I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.

    immagine arguing that weapon that is hard countered by every single build its supposed to fight on a sidenode is good. And you say I dont know basic game mechanic.
    Im trying to explain to you that most weapons have 1-2 weaknesses at best, and that builds that use them can avoid them, while axe has 4-6 of them and they are not covered by class mechanics. Axe is fun but kitten and glichy weapon, it has no place in PvP.

    And no, during pirate fractal I used axe 3 to the middle of the boat, it TPed me to the plank, and flung be under the ship, its bugged.
    Axe 3 can just fling you underneath the target on maps like skyhammer, or just yeet you out of the node and make you charge at the wall. and you compare it to rev sword -.-

    And to sume up this mesmer axe vs rev sword debate.
    Rev sword is melee, and 1 out of 5 attacks is reflectable.
    axe is melee.
    axe is condi
    3/3 attacks are reflectable or semi reflectable.
    your arguments just prove my point.
    axe is a good weapon, unless clones attack the pet. its fine it doesnt always happen.
    or when someone puts reflect dome, itdoesnt always happen right? or when someone aoe cleanses, or when it gliches.
    or when someone provides aoe retaliation, all of those are rare. or when clones focus illusions/phantasms. all of those are rare, right?
    but when you combine all of them its preety much 50%+ of the games.

    think about it, did you have a game where there was no : ranger,mesmer,or guard?
    did you have a game where on the sidenode there was no ele/warrior ?
    just think rationally, you lose to weaver/warrior, mid firebrand makes you useless. and roaming thiefs farm you.
    where do you go? what do you do?

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    Cal I know this is beyond the scope of this minor balance patch, but for the major balance patch here are some things that are holding back warrior build craft:

    Flurry: Hard to land, Locks you into animation with little impact to justify it, Still doesn't deal all strikes 7 years later.

    Mace 4: This skill has 0 utility and is one of the reasons people don't take mace off-hand

    Mace 2 and Sword 5: In General, skills which have a riposte on block should be given the ranger GS4 treatment so they feel useful.

    Sword 4: Although I understand why Torment is on this weapon from a mechanical and flavor perspective but since no other warrior skills build into that condition I would suggest replacing it with bleed. Also in order to make a sword/sword build something people will consider running, consider adding a tiny CC in there like a 1/4 sec daze so that players can stop revives or counter key skills.

    Rupturing Smash: I like this skill, but in the thick of combat it's easy to lose track of your cursor and attack in completely the wrong direction.

    Longbow: Please look at reworking this weapon somehow

    Rifle 4: This evade is extremely helpful in PVP HOWEVER it is not on-demand enough to be able to compete at plat and above. Just speeding up the skill and having it not fizzle when you are faced away from your target and are using movement keys would make a world of difference.

    Sundering Leap: This skill is horrible and contender for worst skill in the game. Any change would be an improvement.

    Head Butt: This skill was heavily used in the HoT days but now it's overshadowed by spellbreaker and rampage. This skill might not need any buffs but I would like a QoL feature to be: If you have no target, this skill just acts as a stunbreak (not trying to CC). The reason for this is that most of the time when you get jumped by some Soulbeast or something, you need to be able to use this to break stun fast AND move out of the way/dodge. If you made this change you may want to make breaking Immobilization baseline.

    Blood Reckoning: This skill should really heal more for the damage dished out.

    Outrage: Berserker would be a lot more viable if this skill removed a condition or 2 on a successful stunbreak

    Throw Bolas: This is a contender for the worst skill in PVP. This skill doesn't have enough utility to justify taking it, especially with all the projectile mitigation in the game. Also it's likely to be intercepted by the incorrect target.

    Balanced Stance: Remove the immune to crit. People have taken this skill for as long as I can remember and don't need this extra defense.

    Banners: Reworked in someway to make them something people use ACTIVELY.

    If you don't use any of my suggestions but one, here it is: Change Shield stance to only block attacks from the front and reduce the stun duration of Shield Bash to 1 second. This will make all other off-hand weapons that much more appealing.

    Thank you for reading. :)

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019
    1. @Chaith.8256 said:
      6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field that lasts 3 seconds, wow, OP! My only question is how do you fit 6-8 seconds of casts & aftercasts into 3 seconds?

    2. @Ghos.1326 said:
      I don't think prot holo can do 6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field, it's not possible with cast times and the like.

    3. @apharma.3741 said:
      "I said a single water field"

      https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

      At least that's how I see this twisted logic going. Also by this logic quite simply holo is one of the best healers in the game because each blast can heal 5 people for 1,320*5 = 6,600 and you multiply this by 3 blasts on a 20s CD to get 990hp/s!!!!!1

      Crazy strong!

    You asked for it: 7 blast/leap finishers in a single Healing Turret water field. If you use the water field from Mortar Kit, you can leap/blast another 2 or 3 times in a single water field (for a grand total of 9-10).

    1. Acid Bomb
    2. Magnetic Inversion
    3. Radiant Arc
    4. Detonate Thumper Turret
    5. Rumble
    6. Holo Leap
    7. Detonate Healing Turret

    Mortar Kit water field lets you get Holographic Shockwave and another Holo Leap or 2 off depending on how fast you can execute the combo/whether or not you have quickness makes it easier.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pls fix the revive abilities on downed opponents. Two of us literally continually cleaved a downed ranger while being razed by a necro. They actually out rezzed us over 15 seconds which is really absurd for a pvp mode.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    1. > @Chaith.8256 said:

    6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field that lasts 3 seconds, wow, OP! My only question is how do you fit 6-8 seconds of casts & aftercasts into 3 seconds?

    1. @Ghos.1326 said:
      I don't think prot holo can do 6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field, it's not possible with cast times and the like.

    2. @apharma.3741 said:
      "I said a single water field"

      https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

      At least that's how I see this twisted logic going. Also by this logic quite simply holo is one of the best healers in the game because each blast can heal 5 people for 1,320*5 = 6,600 and you multiply this by 3 blasts on a 20s CD to get 990hp/s!!!!!1

      Crazy strong!

    You asked for it: 7 blast/leap finishers in a single Healing Turret water field. If you use the water field from Mortar Kit, you can leap/blast another 2 or 3 times in a single water field (for a grand total of 9-10).

    1. Acid Bomb
    2. Magnetic Inversion
    3. Radiant Arc
    4. Detonate Thumper Turret
    5. Rumble
    6. Holo Leap
    7. Detonate Healing Turret

    Mortar Kit water field lets you get Holographic Shockwave and another Holo Leap or 2 off depending on how fast you can execute the combo/whether or not you have quickness makes it easier.

    Not disputing you were right about being able to cram this in, but it's not always about being right, and more about getting it right. Holosmiths in actual combat aren't and shouldn't want to be pulling this off when you consider the limited circumstances where you have every cooldown available from not playing aggressively or defensively and you're missing 20k hp.

    Sword/Shield Prot Holo is just a sub-par build outside of competitive on-point 1v1s, something you only need to build for when preparing to duel someone really good at the game for the duration of a match. 90% of the casual wars 2 PvP base will never have their day ruined by Sword/Shield prot holo, you can p'much walk away from it as you would Scrapper.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    1. > @Chaith.8256 said:

    6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field that lasts 3 seconds, wow, OP! My only question is how do you fit 6-8 seconds of casts & aftercasts into 3 seconds?

    1. @Ghos.1326 said:
      I don't think prot holo can do 6-8 leaps/blasts in a single water field, it's not possible with cast times and the like.

    2. @apharma.3741 said:
      "I said a single water field"

      https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

      At least that's how I see this twisted logic going. Also by this logic quite simply holo is one of the best healers in the game because each blast can heal 5 people for 1,320*5 = 6,600 and you multiply this by 3 blasts on a 20s CD to get 990hp/s!!!!!1

      Crazy strong!

    You asked for it: 7 blast/leap finishers in a single Healing Turret water field. If you use the water field from Mortar Kit, you can leap/blast another 2 or 3 times in a single water field (for a grand total of 9-10).

    1. Acid Bomb
    2. Magnetic Inversion
    3. Radiant Arc
    4. Detonate Thumper Turret
    5. Rumble
    6. Holo Leap
    7. Detonate Healing Turret

    Mortar Kit water field lets you get Holographic Shockwave and another Holo Leap or 2 off depending on how fast you can execute the combo/whether or not you have quickness makes it easier.

    Not disputing you were right about being able to cram this in, but it's not always about being right, and more about getting it right. Holosmiths in actual combat aren't and shouldn't want to be pulling this off when you consider the limited circumstances where you have every cooldown available from not playing aggressively or defensively and you're missing 20k hp.

    Sword/Shield Prot Holo is just a sub-par build outside of competitive on-point 1v1s, something you only need to build for when preparing to duel someone really good at the game for the duration of a match. 90% of the casual wars 2 PvP base will never have their day ruined by Sword/Shield prot holo, you can p'much walk away from it as you would Scrapper.

    Whether or not you should/would have the cooldowns available to execute the entire rotation doesn't really matter. What matters is the fact that the option to do so is available to you if the situation presents itself.

    Also, the 6+ leap/blasts you can do is usually overkill. Using Healing Turret into Magnetic Inversion, Radiant Arc, Holo Leap, and Detonate Healing Turret is enough to heal you from 3-4k HP to full and it's up every 20 seconds.

    Demonstration

    Not to mention that Prot Holo can regen well over 1k health per second passively.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭

    Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war

    Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.

    I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

    sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.

    LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
    Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
    You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D

    the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..

    no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.

    and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.

    No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
    🤔👌🥶

    I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.

    3/3 attacks are reflectable or semi reflectable.

    Nope none of the attacks on skills 1,2,or3 are reflect-able at their base.
    You really are pushing things out of proportion. If you take the trait Mirrored Axes then you know what you are opting into.
    At best you can argue that the trait is bad in the fact that it forces projectiles onto all the skills which would be fine.
    But do not blame the axe itself when that trait is not part of the base axe itself. Which is what you are proclaiming.

    By this logic you are opting into make the axe "Worse or bad" which then i have to why you are doing that if you think that the projectile being reflectable is part of the problem.
    Like I said most of your arguments dont make since as to why you claim axe is bad.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war

    Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.

    I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.

    With your nerf it'll already be useless.

  • Overall I am happy with those changes. I am just a bit surprised by the warrior coefficient.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ovark.2514 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war

    Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.

    I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.

    With your nerf it'll already be useless.

    When being overpowered is fine and viable and being balanced is being dead / useless.
    To be honest 25% on barrier would be more appropriate in spvp for sure even better if the damage only applied to the barrier itself so people are not being hard core punished for 200 point barriers.
    Maybe keep it at 50% in wvw because barrier stacking is a thing it makes since for it to be high in that game mode.

    The damage to foes above 90% hp needs to come down in general 25% is way too much. No other class has a damage mod anywhere near this kind of insanity for opening strikes.

  • Lighter.5631Lighter.5631 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war

    Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.

    I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.

    it still meme.
    i would get away with 50% to 25%, but 50% to 10% shave on a non meta feels non sense not to mention barrier isn't popularized on all classes

  • Are we straight up going to ignore that there's no Weaver changes? I see you CMC ;D

    Physicks [Dankening]
    Toilet Seats

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

    sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.

    LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
    Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
    You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D

    the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..

    no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.

    and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.

    No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
    🤔👌🥶

    I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.

    immagine arguing that weapon that is hard countered by every single build its supposed to fight on a sidenode is good. And you say I dont know basic game mechanic.
    Im trying to explain to you that most weapons have 1-2 weaknesses at best, and that builds that use them can avoid them, while axe has 4-6 of them and they are not covered by class mechanics. Axe is fun but kitten and glichy weapon, it has no place in PvP.

    And no, during pirate fractal I used axe 3 to the middle of the boat, it TPed me to the plank, and flung be under the ship, its bugged.
    Axe 3 can just fling you underneath the target on maps like skyhammer, or just yeet you out of the node and make you charge at the wall. and you compare it to rev sword -.-

    And to sume up this mesmer axe vs rev sword debate.
    Rev sword is melee, and 1 out of 5 attacks is reflectable.
    axe is melee.
    axe is condi
    3/3 attacks are reflectable or semi reflectable.
    your arguments just prove my point.
    axe is a good weapon, unless clones attack the pet. its fine it doesnt always happen.
    or when someone puts reflect dome, itdoesnt always happen right? or when someone aoe cleanses, or when it gliches.
    or when someone provides aoe retaliation, all of those are rare. or when clones focus illusions/phantasms. all of those are rare, right?
    but when you combine all of them its preety much 50%+ of the games.

    think about it, did you have a game where there was no : ranger,mesmer,or guard?
    did you have a game where on the sidenode there was no ele/warrior ?
    just think rationally, you lose to weaver/warrior, mid firebrand makes you useless. and roaming thiefs farm you.
    where do you go? what do you do?

    It's fun to see that @ZDragon.3046 carefully avoid answering each time we talk about data and factuals things.
    Like I have maybe 4 to 5 arguments on my lasts posts that he totally ignored because you know when you cry about mesmer, you are abviously right to whine.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Lighter.5631 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Lighter.5631 said:
    Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war

    Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.

    I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.

    it still meme.
    i would get away with 50% to 25%, but 50% to 10% shave on a non meta feels non sense not to mention barrier isn't popularized on all classes

    Thats exactly why it shouldnt be that high in the first place because barrier is not popularized on all classes in most cases a lot of classes dont generate enough barrier on their own to be worthy of that much of damage increase to chew through it. IT would be better to just make the trait have your damage or a set number of strikes ignore barrier every so often even than to have it be tuned up to just a raw damage increase and it would still achieve the same effect which is to have a moderate counter to barrier in general not to have it so hitting someone with 200 points of barrier makes your 3k axe throw become a 9k axe throw through stacked damage mods.

    Overall it should be more like do increased damage to targets above a health threshold 10% or less even and just said something like "Burst attacks bypass barrier and do 10% more damage to foes with barrier.
    Then you make sure there is an exception so that if you deal fatal damage to the persons hp even if barrier is covering them they go down anyways.

    Give a few more classes traits similar to this maybe 1 or 2 more where they have something that allows their damage to just bypass barrier all together in short moments. and Barrier has a few classes that can counter it.

    A 50% damage increase that can not only apply to the barrier was not a good way of trying to solve that issue. IF the 50% bonus only applied to barrier value then only the bonus damage above 90% hp would be the thing in question and 25% in general is just too much period.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Reflect kitten you over hard.
    condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
    proj block kitten you over hard.
    no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
    fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-

    Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.

    When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
    What can you say about my why is axe bad ?

    I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.

    The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
    About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.

    I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.

    When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.

    not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
    so itssupper whammed.
    1 its melee
    2 its prjectile based
    3 its multi hit ( retal )
    4 its condi.
    its just asking to get kitten over

    But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
    Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
    Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)

    Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.

    Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
    I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.

    I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
    axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.

    So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.

    difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.

    Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.

    reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.

    But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.

    The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.

    Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.

    like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.

    Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.

    PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
    its all of the combine of being
    1 condi.
    2 melee
    3 projectile based
    4 multi hit
    the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
    or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.

    I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.

    The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.

    EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based

    • the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.

    Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.

    axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.

    This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
    Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.

    Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)

    Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.

    you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
    its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.

    Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.

    Secondly
    As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.

    Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.

    I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.

    If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.

    I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
    and you yet again dont read.

    How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
    What about the other 8 players in the game
    how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
    if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots

    Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.

    You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.

    1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
    reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.

    What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.

    To be clear
    Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged

    A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard

    Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.

    If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.

    I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to insert cat
    🤔🧐🥶

    becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.

    This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match

    make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D

    We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)

    sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.

    LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
    Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
    You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D

    the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..

    no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.

    and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.

    No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
    🤔👌🥶

    I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.

    immagine arguing that weapon that is hard countered by every single build its supposed to fight on a sidenode is good. And you say I dont know basic game mechanic.
    Im trying to explain to you that most weapons have 1-2 weaknesses at best, and that builds that use them can avoid them, while axe has 4-6 of them and they are not covered by class mechanics. Axe is fun but kitten and glichy weapon, it has no place in PvP.

    And no, during pirate fractal I used axe 3 to the middle of the boat, it TPed me to the plank, and flung be under the ship, its bugged.
    Axe 3 can just fling you underneath the target on maps like skyhammer, or just yeet you out of the node and make you charge at the wall. and you compare it to rev sword -.-

    And to sume up this mesmer axe vs rev sword debate.
    Rev sword is melee, and 1 out of 5 attacks is reflectable.
    axe is melee.
    axe is condi
    3/3 attacks are reflectable or semi reflectable.
    your arguments just prove my point.
    axe is a good weapon, unless clones attack the pet. its fine it doesnt always happen.
    or when someone puts reflect dome, itdoesnt always happen right? or when someone aoe cleanses, or when it gliches.
    or when someone provides aoe retaliation, all of those are rare. or when clones focus illusions/phantasms. all of those are rare, right?
    but when you combine all of them its preety much 50%+ of the games.

    think about it, did you have a game where there was no : ranger,mesmer,or guard?
    did you have a game where on the sidenode there was no ele/warrior ?
    just think rationally, you lose to weaver/warrior, mid firebrand makes you useless. and roaming thiefs farm you.
    where do you go? what do you do?

    It's fun to see that @ZDragon.3046 carefully avoid answering each time we talk about data and factuals things.
    Like I have maybe 4 to 5 arguments on my lasts posts that he totally ignored because you know when you cry about mesmer, you are abviously right to whine.

    Your arguments are almost if not more pointless than his.
    At least he is looking at the skills and how they work which is factual and more realistic than just looking at numbers. I already talked with you about numbers and now you are just attempting to harass through passive aggressive taunt post with me tagged in them. I told you like weeks ago i was mostly done conversing with you because you want me to provide you with numbers that effectively show nothing and do not add to the conversation. On top of this you have already generated your own "version" of these numbers if i post anything different you are just going to tell me im wrong and you are right there for i dont see the point in answering your "arguments" You keep asking for "factual data" and "numbers" as if those things are finite to happen that way in every combat situation which is not the case. There is no way for me to truely fact check your data even more so in the case of how rng mesmer can be especially with a weapon like staff. Your data would be ideally just as useless as mine and while posting number looks nice for the sake of argument in most case numbers of every single point of damage being done leads to nothing.

    I dont need data to see how other people feel about how the match ups go between staff mirage and various other professions.
    I dont need data to know my experince between fighting an axe mirage and a passive evasive staff mirage.
    There are pages of post here and in many other places flooded with comments that are not mine that talk about how silly mirage is along with post of every other crazy class like holo and soul beast weaver etc etc. There is probably a reason those other people ignored your replies after a certain number too because the realize you are not someone they can converse with and there is effectively no point as you end every argument with "your words mean nothing because you provide no data and facts behind it even if they did provide one or the other."

    So no i wont go back to answer your arguments because you want data that ideally means nothing or is totally unrelated or unreasonable to prove as factual data. Ideally you are asking me to give you something that could be held with reasonable doubt so that you can say you are correct while telling me how im wrong. Im not going to waste my energy doing that or attempting to do that.

    Can you stop passive aggressively tagging me in attempts to taunt me if you do it again i wont hesitate to flag your post just as people have flagged mine in the past when i got out of line.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    It's fun to see that @ZDragon.3046 carefully avoid answering each time we talk about data and factuals things.
    Like I have maybe 4 to 5 arguments on my lasts posts that he totally ignored because you know when you cry about mesmer, you are abviously right to whine.

    Your arguments are almost if not more pointless than his.
    At least he is looking at the skills and how they work which is factual and more realistic than just looking at numbers. I already talked with you about numbers and now you are just attempting to harass through passive aggressive taunt post with me tagged in them.
    I told you like weeks ago i was mostly done conversing with you.

    And I told you I will be here each time you cry with no data behind.

    because you want me to provide you with numbers that effectively show nothing and do not add to the conversation.

    Nop, numbers show something but it's against your whine so ofc you bypass them. And yeah I want you to justify your arguments.

    On top of this you have already generated your own "version" of these numbers if i post anything different you are just going to tell me im wrong and you are right there for i dont see the point in answering your "arguments" You keep asking for "factual data" and "numbers" as if those things are finite to happen that way in every combat situation which is not the case. There is no way for me to truely fact check your data even more so in the case of how rng mesmer can be especially with a weapon like staff. > Your data would be ideally just as useless as mine and while posting number looks nice for the sake of argument in most case numbers of every single point of damage being done leads to nothing.

    I don't post my own version, I post the in game version while even inflate them so they look even more op than they are in practise.

    I dont need data to see how other people feel about how the match ups go between staff mirage and various other professions.
    I dont need data to know my experince between fighting an axe mirage and a passive evasive staff mirage.

    Yeah you don't need arguments to whine I already see this.
    And ofc you experience is the way to go about what to nerf or not.

    There are pages of post here and in many other places flooded with comments that are not mine that talk about how silly mirage is along with post of every other crazy class like holo and soul beast weaver etc etc. There is probably a reason those other people ignored your replies after a certain number too because the realize you are not someone they can converse with and there is effectively no point as you end every argument with "your words mean nothing because you provide no data and facts behind it even if they did provide one or the other."

    Other people didn't continue to troll for ages.

    So no i wont go back to answer your arguments because you want data that ideally means nothing or is totally unrelated or unreasonable to prove as factual data.

    Yeah is easier to cry than to look at number I understand.

    Ideally you are asking me to give you something that could be held with reasonable doubt so that you can say you are correct while telling me how im wrong. Im not going to waste my energy doing that or attempting to do that.

    If you know that why did you continue discussing about mesmer ?

    Can you stop passive aggressively tagging me in attempts to taunt me if you do it again i wont hesitate to flag your post just as people have flagged mine in the past when i got out of line.

    Then can you stop talking about mesmer while having no clue about it ? It's you who are just taunting me if you want my opinion.

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