Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

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  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    Let's take a look at the amount of cleanses both scrapper and firebrands get.

    • Scrapper:
    1. Cleansing Synergy: 1 cleanse up to 5 targets every 10 seconds (5 conditions)
    2. Purge Gyro: Remove 1 condition every 5 seconds up to 5 targets. (25 conditions)
    3. Med Kit (Cleansing Field): Remove 1 condition each pulse, up to 4 pulses (assuming 5 target limit) (20 conditions).
    • Firebrand:
    1. Tome of Resolve: Activating this skill with Absolute Resolution trait will remove 3 conditions on 5 targets (15 conditions)
    2. Tome of Resolve (Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery): 2 Conditions removed every 2.75 seconds on 5 targets with Loremaster trait. (10 conditions).
    3. Mantra of Lore (Opening Passage): Convert 2 conditions on 5 targets (10 conditions)
    4. Mantra of Lore (Clarified Conclusion): Convert 5 conditions on 5 targets (25 conditions).
    • Scourge:

    If these changes go live with that means..

    1. You have Axe 3 that converts 2 boons on 5 targets (10 boons).
    2. Scepter 3 would now only convert 1 boon on 5 targets (5 boons).
    3. Well of Corruption assuming is 1 boon corrupted per pulse every second (up to 25 boons if all 5 targets are stationary inside the well long enough which is 90% of the time never).
    4. Ghastly Breach You can corrupt 1 boon (assuming) up to 5 targets, 1 per pulse up to 5 pulses (25 boons if all 5 targets are again stationary and don't move out of the breach).
    5. Dagger 5 Corrupt 1 boon on 5 targets (5 boons)
    6. Shade 2 (with Path of Corruption trait) would convert 2 boons on 5 targets (10 boons).

    The problem with balancing out the number of corrupts vs boons, is that most of the scourge corrupts are stationary attacks that the enemy can dodge out of and move way from. Meanwhile support classes like Firebrand or Scrapper require teammates to be closeby and don't suffer from the lack from this.

    In my honest opinion, the change to the Sand Savant target limit should be enough boon corrupt nerf for the time being. And Devouring Darkness should remain at 2.

  • sostronk.8167sostronk.8167 Member ✭✭✭

    Buff mechanics that require more than one click IE combo fields and nerf one click abilities.

    _We must secure the existence of our Quaggans and a future for Quaggan children. _

  • Can you please do something fun for scourges? Every patch it ends up being, you get to do less with higher cooldowns. It's a boring class to play. Removing shade skills from the scourge and shade at the same time even reduced its minor support capabilities. The ranged shade is for damage, the one on the scourge was its support. You removed the support entirely in 90% of cases. You only really apply barrier to allies with your heal skill and that is then the only way conditions get removed by the scourge. Congrats necro in every spec is a horrible support again. There are still zero good utilities that affect your party, so necro has run wells in wvw since the core game. Scourge is now also the least defensive form of necro because the barrier that was its shroud no longer affects it most of the time. I realize that the shade could affect the scourge if no shade is placed, but that just doesn't happen when commanders are looking for damage. The longer time spent on the ground added in the last balance patch basically made sure that shade skills are never used around the actual scourge. Also the trait that reduces incoming damage for each shade placed is useless unless if you use the shade around the scourge.

    The meta for wvw will either change to bring more scourges so we can get done what was happening before or you'll make it so bad it won't be played at all. There is no balance to some people playing scourges. Necro in all specs is one of the easiest classes to mass aoe people with at the same time. It doesn't do the most damage and hasn't for a long time. Scourges are brought for corrupts and aoe. Support scourge could have been thing if it was given more group utility, but that has never happened. I'm hoping scourge just dies at this point so I don't have to keep playing this boring class.

    In wvw, classes each have a specific role:

    SUPPORT
    Firebrands = best overall defensive support (group stability, group stun breaks, defensive boons, decent healing, some condi cleanse.)
    Scrapper = best condi cleanse, good healing, group stealth
    Tempest = best healing, very good condi cleanse, some cc

    DPS
    Scourges = best corrupts (at range), many aoes
    Herald = easy offensive boons, group damage reduction, ranged power spike
    Weaver = range damage/aoes (meteors), some cc

    OTHER
    Spellbreaker doesn't bring much of anything to the group that another class can't do better except winds but that is melee range only and warriors leave the group to do that.
    Chrono died a painful death without its boon support and other nerfed utilities
    Melee classes or single target classes simply aren't the best way to fight a zerg atm.

    If you don't bring something to the group you don't get included in the meta.

    Nerfing scourge corrupts will just mean you need more scourges to corrupt things. No other class corrupts boons at range and there haven't been any added. Other classes ability to apply boons hasn't changed so scourge remains the only way to get rid of them without standing on top of them. Other classes ability to apply boons every second (literally) isn't affected. Therefore more scourges will be needed than is around now to corrupt the opponent boons.

    Scourge is awful 1v1, bad in small groups... and getting worse every patch. Can you fix it in some other aspect so it isn't dead in every game mode?

  • gavyne.6847gavyne.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerfing target cap back down to 5, I can support that 100%. As a necro I've suggested such before. But nerfing devouring darkness even more, that's not needed. As-is right now boonsharing is outpacing corrupts. Squads are finally taking tempests now for heals & cleanses (that's a good thing), and scrappers are still S-tier at condi conversion. There is not enough corrupts to go around, even worse if you're outnumbered because corrupts is the only thing that gives you a fighting chance.

    You are wanting to nerf shades from 10 to 5 targets, that in itself will nerf scourge's dps + corrupts. Try that first without nerfing devouring darkness even more. It didn't need to be nerfed before, certainly don't warrant further nerfs right now. You nerf devouring darkness further, you're accepting the fact that no necros will take scepter any longer. Do you really want to go as far as killing builds & weapon choices?

    Most seasoned WvW players will agree you really can't nerf corrupts without nerf boonsharing. The elephant in the room is that corrupts have been needed because boonsharing is out of control...and have been for a very long time. So sure, adjust corrupts. But please don't overdo it without looking at the elephant in the room.

  • The reduction is nice. Now shave off some of the damage and/or hp and all is well.

  • Acheron.4731Acheron.4731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nice.
    It isn't much but clearly reflects user complaints.
    Some ppl may be mad but I like that you id'd a problem and quickly acted on it.
    Keep up the good work :)

    wow, that is the first time I have said that to an ANET employee in like....years?

    A true friend of the crown

  • Most WvW centric guilds I know have already completely phased Scourge out of team comps based on the previous and these anticipated nerfs. lol.

  • @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Cal,

    the corrupt potential of the scourge isn't the problem, boon application far outweighs the corrupts. Jump in any group and switch off the grid view and watch your party in the middle of battle. All you see is an influx of boons being applied with very little conditions or conditions appearing and then vanishing. If corrupts were a problem, we'd see the opposite; we'd see less boons and boons vanishing and tons of conditions ticking. We don't see that, leave the corrupts alone.

    Shades also aren't the problem, the only real class they bother is the guardian, and to a lesser extent the warrior. Thieves, Rangers, Mesmers, Revs, and Engineers have little to no issue with shades. The shade complaints are coming from those 2 classes which is ironic because it's the Guardian class itself that does too much. What you need to do is revert all the changes on all the classes back to the start of PoF and take the heavy nerf bat to the Guardian and Guardian alone.

    Case and point, One of the skills the Firebrand has converts 5 conditions to 5 boons on 5 targets (basically functions like an elite skill), on a relatively short cool down. The counter skill to this would have been devouring darkness, which in it's original state converting 3 boons to 3 conditions on 5 targets was never on par to even begin with; it needed to be increased to 5 boons to 5 conditions on 5 targets to match it. Then it got reduced to 2 conditions, now will be reduced down to 1, and the Firebrand skill remains untouched????? Do you see the problem here?

    Changing Scourge isn't going to change the meta, the sole problem with the meta is the Guardian class. Making those changes will likely reduce Scourges in WvW yes, but it will also likely reduce amount of players playing as well (and there aren't many left as is). What will the scourge be replaced with? Ele's? Nope, die to retaliation and their healing is sub par compared to Firebrand. Revs? Good possibility but does WvW need more Revs, many players will say no? More Rangers and thieves? Nope, too much reflect because of Guardian. More scrappers? Again, highly unlikely, they don't serve a large enough function to warrant many of them. Mesmers? How many chrono tanks are needed in groups?

    Then that lastly brings us to warriors, who better to fill the boon stripping gap then warriors? With little fear of boon corruption now, warriors can run amok much easier. Then the original problem has been created that plagued WvW prior to HoT's release, that awful melee meta, the one that started making players quite the game in masses, due to the lack of class diversity and alienation of other classes. Reducing boon corrupts is about the poorest move you can make Cal.

    That isn't the only problem the guardian class poses; they dish out too much retaliation, too many reflects, too much resistance, too much stability, and too much healing. Then also aside from too much condi conversion in their wheelhouse, they pack too much overall condition cleanse as well. Your nerf bat should be squarely focused on them and reducing them down to the level of other classes. They should only be able to do one of those things well on that list (like party stab), and one other thing marginally well (like healing). Everything else needs to be completely removed from their skill list. That is what will change the meta and bring more diversity into the game mode.

    +1 so more people see where the complaints should actually be going.

    Had I not said a million times in the past that Firebrand is a problem, I'd have written something similar. Instead I chose to bend over and suggest ways to make Scourge in to something else.

    Thank you for writing this and saying what I couldn't have better myself.

    Ñecromancy [YWY] | Maguuma/Anvil Rock | Diamond Legend

  • Kitta.3657Kitta.3657 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    i like the scourge changes

    now please revert your removal of illusionary persona on chronomancer in all game modes :) as this has been proven to be one of the worst (if not the one) change done to mesmer.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scourge does too much direct and condi damage, barrier, corruption and cleanses with one shade.Right now scourge is a power creep over core necro because barrier already does the role of the shroud for core.
    IMO i'd try first to remove the direct damage and check carefully the condition damage. And leave the target cap like it is now and It should push the spec to a more offensive support role and make space for other classes in the damage slot, like elementalist.

    Another pain point is the firebrand with the access to heal+support+cleanses. It makes any other support classes completely irrelevant. Although i cant give any advise here as i dont play much with that class .

    Condi thieves, permastealth thieves, condi mirages are also problematic point in wvw.

    Ranger's Rapid Fire needs a visual clue the same as CoR has. Something like show the projectiles brigth red would be good so the target can see where the damage comes from.

  • What about repairing rev's CoR before any balance?

  • @Dark.7235 said:
    Most WvW centric guilds I know have already completely phased Scourge out of team comps based on the previous and these anticipated nerfs. lol.

    You obviously know some terrible guilds.

    Any chance of adding Mesmer/Rev/Ele back into the meta again instead of purely focusing on the holy trinity of Guard/Warrior/Necro?

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So.. ping ponging shade target amounts back down to 5 while still decreasing corruption and not touching the other side of things, they're just putting the targets back to where it was before the last change a month ago.

    But this is just a note, guess we wait and see what else will happen.

    Another derailing post ^ - Anet
    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" - "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon." - "Woo!"
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WaH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • I actually want to know since we already talk about boonstrip and boon corrupt here, also the vice versa condition remove (and in some case convert to boon)
    Which are the priority For example 1 person has full boon, another person corrupt/strip 3, which boon take priority?
    As well as if a person suffer for all condition and guardian pop F2 skill 5, which 5 condition are removed first?

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Scourge going to get the Chronomancer treatment for WvW, I see...

    Can't you implement HP on Shades that depletes itself everytime it pulses? And I mean HIT points, not Health.
    For example - Shades have 30 HP and pulses 15 times, so it depletes 2 HPs per pulse, but foes can attack it to prevent it from pulsing its whole duration. One attack of any kind removes 1 HP from it. It has to be attacks, and not ticking conditions that remove HP. This way, shades could still be potent on small scale but not overpowered on large scale battles.

    Adding lots of Barriers to most of the Scourge skills but retaining their corruption potency is also a good idea. That way, Tactics Warriors would be meta. Commanders would now have to balance their squads and not just spam Scourges and add a couple of Spellbreakers then blob to win.

    Exploit people's good will and optimism.

  • jsp.6912jsp.6912 Member ✭✭

    firebrand and winds of disenchantment have to be nerf in priority
    and the wvw can become nice

  • You need to start rethinking and find new mechanics for this class. Lately you are only nerfing classes andcskills. Can you do something different instead? Death magic useless still in wvw.

    Second time in a row you want to nerf Devouring Darkness and mess with Sand Savant. It seems you are lost. Curses is not going to be use anymore If you finally nerf Devouring Darkness, leaving no other choices than just run spite and soul reaping with power build.

  • misterman.1530misterman.1530 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @misterman.1530 said:
    Typical. And typical responses from the typical people. Yea, Scourges are incredible in a zerg. Roaming, not so much. Scourges will not one-shot someone like a SoulBeast or a DeadEye. Scourges have NO defense and are generally running glass. But by all means, nerf us more and give us no retaliation or blocks. Hey, for funsies, why not make the one pathetic port we have take 10 seconds to cast - that'll teach us.

    Does Anet even play the class?

    "Scourges are incredible in a zerg" and that's what they're targeting, so why are you complaining about roaming here? I don't really get it. Or are you another one of those people that think the single class they're playing should be strong at everything they want to do?

    Yes. Because other classes are also incredible in a zerg and also can roam. Is this something you are unaware of? I mean, other people later on in this thread have explained the power other classes bring, so I'll let you go read those. I really thought, however, that I didn't need to mention the skillset of every other class every time I bring up that nerfing Scourges isn't the right thing to do.

  • Alright so, i see two main points being brought up:
    1-"people will just use more scourges": maybe in gvg they'll add one or two to the comp or maybe not, but in publics i don't think that'll happen. Consider If you put more scourges you have less of something else too. It's still a nerf, and also people just kind of play what they want since public leads aren't pre-organized usually.
    2-"nerf other supports instead": Yes and no. The problem with corrupts isn't that they remove too many boons, but it is that they change boons into conditions, and since stability gets corrupted into fear you get situations in which your stab gets chaincorrupted into fear and you just die. So the problem is that with a coordinated shade spike(and maybe rev spike on top of it) you can lockdown all enemy classes that don't have stuff like evades or skills that make you completely invulnerable to damage(and with low cast time too), corrupt their stab into fear, and then put CC on top of that. And with the amount of damage necroes and rev deal you can melt down even a firebrand in like 1-1.5 seconds sometimes. That being said, i also agree that we have too many boons, so maybe a more balanced apporach would be to, instead of reducing corrupts, keeping them the same or even increasing them, but after changing them into boon removals, and after that nerfing boon uptime. That way you avoid silly situations in which you die to your own stability being corrupted, you give ccs some use out of being put on top of bubbles/shades by nerfing stab uptime (and not number of stacks, please) and open up more tactical gameplay: in the pre-HoT meta you called stab 1 and 2 and you knew your squad would have stab for some seconds, used those seconds for aggressive play and then pull back and reorganize, handle cds and such, and on the other hand you could try and punish the enemy squad when you knew its defensive cds would be on cooldown. That meta was much better in that sense IMO, without overpowered specs your cds felt much more important, now as a firebrand main i can tell you can constantly rotate between mantras, tomes and weapon skills and always, ALWAYS have at very least some way of providing aegis, protection or condi cleanse. Even stab is barely lakcing if you know how to manage it.
    TL;DR: less corrupts, more boon removal -->nerf boon uptime and make cds more important.

  • miguelsil.6324miguelsil.6324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at WvW.

    Cal please address the perma STEALTH, HARD CC STUNLOCKS ( really its not fun and has no skill required ) and one shot builds for all classes in wvw, we ned to have counters for one shots from stealth which in this case means DE and mesmers.

    Too much reward with little to no risk.

    Stunlocks should have no place in wvw, a ICD of at least 1s after the stun ends or is broken by stunbreak would fix this.

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kanto.2485 said:
    (...) you get situations in which your stab gets chaincorrupted into fear and you just die. So the problem is that with a coordinated shade spike(and maybe rev spike on top of it) you can lockdown all enemy classes that don't have stuff like evades or skills that make you completely invulnerable to damage(and with low cast time too), corrupt their stab into fear, and then put CC on top of that. And with the amount of damage necroes and rev deal you can melt down even a firebrand in like 1-1.5 seconds sometimes.

    Makes sense, but I feel like that stars need to be quite aligned for that to work.

    That said, stunlocks have been an issue for ages...

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @TwilightSoul.9048 said:
    In my opinion the only change neccessary on Scourge is: Remove the power damage. It's supposed to be a condi class, not a powerAoE Bomber.

    You realise scourges play power because in medium to large scale combat conditions are pretty much completely useless due to the over abundance of condition cleanse int the game at the moment.

    And you realise that the oppressive nature of scourge comes from the fact that they can do excessive powerbombs with no meaningfull cooldown on large AoE's from range?
    The fact that condition builds vs condition cleanse are completely out of balance is an entirely different issue (which of course needs to be adressed as well...).

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • This will be a much needed fix to the Scourge.... Scourges were a problem in WvW before they were buffed, buffing them made them way overpowered... scaling it back a tad will help, but Scourge is still going to be too powerful, they were before it was buffed to 10 targets. But I appreciate that you are doing small adjustments to classes and seeing how those adjustments play out instead of doing wide rangey adjustments that can mess up a lot in a lot of ways at once. Very agile of you guys =P

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Cal hit the Post Comment button too quickly, because what would make sense would be in addition to reducing the target cap from 10 to 5, they should reduce the 100% cooldown duration increase we see in WvW to compensate.

    Less targets hit per shade / more shades can be cast by the player over the same time span.

    Btw, the shade rework still sucks for PvE Scourges.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    I think Cal hit the Post Comment button too quickly, because what would make sense would be in addition to reducing the target cap from 10 to 5, they should reduce the 100% cooldown duration increase we see in WvW to compensate.

    Less targets hit per shade / more shades can be cast by the player over the same time span.

    Btw, the shade rework still sucks for PvE Scourges.

    yeah the cd increase will be brutal if it remains.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    we need the pvp changes in WvW too.
    Small scale is more important than large scale for the majority.

    i saw the pvp notes and thought . woooow finally.. and then realized it was PVP and not WVW :(

    Agreed...this is incredibly disappointing. I welcome scourge nerfs, but why the still complete refusal to bring all the SPvP changes to WvW? Lowman PvP is a hilarious mobile game tier disaster and so imbalanced that it's simply UNFUN.

    C'mon CmC, you're better than this. Give us all the nerfs SPvP. WvW isn't simply zerg vs zerg PvP, there's small scale PvP ALL the time and it's a complete miserable experience due to how badly it's balanced.

    Balancing WvW ONLY around zerg pvp is why the mode is so far into the gutter right now.

    @miguelsil.6324 said:
    Cal please address the perma STEALTH, HARD CC STUNLOCKS ( really its not fun and has no skill required ) and one shot builds for all classes in wvw, we ned to have counters for one shots from stealth which in this case means DE and mesmers.

    Too much reward with little to no risk.

    Stunlocks should have no place in wvw, a ICD of at least 1s after the stun ends or is broken by stunbreak would fix this.

    Here is a good example of what I mentioned above. These builds only work in WvW and do not function in SPvP, but are very common and incredibly unfun to fight in WvW.

  • Kiso.8465Kiso.8465 Member ✭✭

    buff turrets or kits as engi

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    Waiting for Staff Elementalist to get buffed. Change Lava Font and Meteor Shower back to normal, then buff core traits. Thank you.

    There was a time, not too long ago actually, that my CoR would actually travel toward and hit what I was targeting. Just saying - be careful what you ask for ;)

  • Galmac.4680Galmac.4680 Member ✭✭✭

    Can ANet look at Condi Mirages as well?
    Scourge is already dead for me, as I just solo roam in WvW, so just do what you want with its remains.

    Praise Joko!

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should just take the sledgehammer to mirage so mesmers get the last reason to quit the class and game and everyone else will stop complaining, win win.

    Another derailing post ^ - Anet
    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" - "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon." - "Woo!"
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WaH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Like one skill? Focussed on zerging? Why did i had hope again?

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    Well, so here is the feedback:

    Those changes won't solve anything!
    By reducing sand savant targets you are just making and unneeded change that will shift the issue onto demonic lore. Nothing more nothing less.

    To balance the necromancer/scourge in WvW, there is 3 thing that you need to consider:

    • Rethink barriers: The issue with barrier is that they favor stacking source of barriers. You need to change their ability to stack. Even if it mean that all barriers source will need adjustment after such a change, it's a necessary step that you cannot skip.
    • Boon corruption: The necromancer have to much boon corruption. Not to much boon removal, to much boon corruption! Just change back some boon corruption to boon ripping.
    • Sand shade area denial: Please just remove the manifest sand shade proc from the F skills and rework F5 into a non damaging skill.

    That is what you need to do since scourge's release. We've got CD increase, skill delay, traits exceptions, QoL butchered... etc. It's time to stop looking right and left and concentrate onto the origin of the problem. Sand savant isn't and have never been the issue, the issue is the damage from the area. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Did anyone ever complained about DE support that grant support around the deadeye and it's marked target? No. It's the same radius than what provide sand savant pre QoL butchered. And this is proof enough that you are focusing on the wrong things in your balancing.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Aney made a game without dedicated healers, then introduced them in druid then firebrand for the sake of raids. You either need to unhitch PvE and WvW balance (not such a bad idea anyways) or nerf the slippers out of support specs (the main offended being firebrand), and spread that functionality across multiple classes as was originally intended. Combine that with a general decrease in time to kill/damage across the board, and you'll have something approaching balance again.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    This sounds good but scorge needs to get something maybe bigger shades that dose an aoe heal / aoe barrier pulsing. The scorge class IS an support at the end of the day so it should act like an support not like a dps class that been nerfed.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • thieves: jump in (out of stealth) whenever they want, and if something does not go their way, they can instantly jump away (into stealth).

    Either reduce their mobility, hp and damage a lot, or remove stealth altogether. THE WHOLE CLASS IS BROKEN.

    Mesmer? Same!
    Two classes that can engage&disengage at will, must not be able to deal that much amount of damage. Or if you like the stealth-glass cannon so much, make them really glass: 2k hp. Top. A single blow, game over.

    Rangers: almost as bad as the two above. But hey, just a little 50% damage nerf and soulbeast&co would be balanced. Same for holo. Core and Scrapper are fine, imho.

    warriors&guardians: remove 50% of their blocks&invuls, done. Also nuke the burnguard damage.

    necros: too much hp for the damage they dish out. 10k less would be apropriate.

    and there you have it, balance.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets.

    You just raised the cap to 10 in the previous balance patch. It was limited to 5-targets prior (with another 5 coming from the area around the necro itself).

    Scourge was still a problem with the 5-target cap on the "big" shade so this is a very small step. It's really just fixing what you broke the other month.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    Waiting for Staff Elementalist to get buffed. Change Lava Font and Meteor Shower back to normal, then buff core traits. Thank you.

    There was a time, not too long ago actually, that my CoR would actually travel toward and hit what I was targeting. Just saying - be careful what you ask for ;)

    Elementalist should be high risk with high reward, like this:

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    Well, so here is the feedback:

    Those changes won't solve anything!
    By reducing sand savant targets you are just making and unneeded change that will shift the issue onto demonic lore. Nothing more nothing less.

    To balance the necromancer/scourge in WvW, there is 3 thing that you need to consider:

    • Rethink barriers: The issue with barrier is that they favor stacking source of barriers. You need to change their ability to stack. Even if it mean that all barriers source will need adjustment after such a change, it's a necessary step that you cannot skip.
    • Boon corruption: The necromancer have to much boon corruption. Not to much boon removal, to much boon corruption! Just change back some boon corruption to boon ripping.
    • Sand shade area denial: Please just remove the manifest sand shade proc from the F skills and rework F5 into a non damaging skill.

    That is what you need to do since scourge's release. We've got CD increase, skill delay, traits exceptions, QoL butchered... etc. It's time to stop looking right and left and concentrate onto the origin of the problem. Sand savant isn't and have never been the issue, the issue is the damage from the area. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Did anyone ever complained about DE support that grant support around the deadeye and it's marked target? No. It's the same radius than what provide sand savant pre QoL butchered. And this is proof enough that you are focusing on the wrong things in your balancing.

    I stopped reading after "switching to demonic lore". I mean, demonic lore, on a power build? Really?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    thieves: jump in (out of stealth) whenever they want, and if something does not go their way, they can instantly jump away (into stealth).

    Either reduce their mobility, hp and damage a lot, or remove stealth altogether. THE WHOLE CLASS IS BROKEN.

    Mesmer? Same!
    Two classes that can engage&disengage at will, must not be able to deal that much amount of damage. Or if you like the stealth-glass cannon so much, make them really glass: 2k hp. Top. A single blow, game over.

    Rangers: almost as bad as the two above. But hey, just a little 50% damage nerf and soulbeast&co would be balanced. Same for holo. Core and Scrapper are fine, imho.

    warriors&guardians: remove 50% of their blocks&invuls, done. Also nuke the burnguard damage.

    necros: too much hp for the damage they dish out. 10k less would be apropriate.

    and there you have it, balance.

    U coulda saved yourself a lot of time by just typing I dislike thief and mesmer design pls delete class.
    Its messed up that they don't make ur proposed changes to those classes given ur clearly un biased rant post.

  • miguelsil.6324miguelsil.6324 Member ✭✭✭

    Elementalist should be high risk with high reward, like this:

    Hell no, that is just broken, its easy to stay behind and use that 2 shoting SEVERAL PEOPLE

  • Get a top notch internet service provider and remove the AOE cap entirely. Simultaneously reduces the number of Scrouges while forcing the breakup of zergs or, at the very least, thin them out. Then bring back orbs.

  • I think sand savant is fine. The scourge burst comes from the combination of desert shroud and the elite skill. (Or any other combo of skills that can be used along side desert shroud)

    All you have to really do is make desert shroud a channeled ability. You’d still be able to burst with it, but now you can be interrupted. This way you don’t compromise the boon/corrupt wars, and you can still keep scourge as a dps/strip class

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Scourge

    We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets.

    So the pain point is something that Anet changed recently, even though feedback prior to it was like NO dont do this, you want to bring overperforming builds back in line, and out of all the classes Necro was the only one, no mention of perma invis instant kill thieves, or cant be killed boon bot soulbeasts, are take no damage warriors, got it, it doesnt really seem like you h ave identified the problem you have acknowledged that people want 1 class nerfed, it was this type of "balancing" in the past that got us to this point,

    Reverting the scourge back to what it was at before wont change anything, nerfing it more than that just removes it from the game mode, like i said in the "feedback" topic you cant fix the balance in WvW by changing a few stats on some classes, as it either makes it massively OP or so bad that no one will touch it again, the entire scourge change that was done recently needs completely undone, it broke the class in PvE but making is to sub par to other classes its not used, and so OP in WvW that you made the problem they had before x10 worse. Its starting to feel that the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing, alas this was a problem that you have inherited with your new position.

    Necro players already know that your fix will remove them from WvW completely, its just what happens around here, dont believe me, go read the necro sub forum.

    Don't say what you mean, it will get you in trouble.