The Mesmers Balance around "Infinit Horizon" in PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Mesmers Balance around "Infinit Horizon" in PvP

Hi,
with the reveal of the planed nerfs to Mirage we see once more, that the PvP-Balance of the Mesmer is heavily focused around this trait. Every "Meta"-Build since the "Elusive Mind"-Nerf uses this trait.
Mesmer was always a combo profession this is why it has 2 different typs of illusions.

  • Phantasms damage the opponent
  • Clones don´t really damage the opponent (only combined with F1-4)

The trait "Infinit Horizon" blures the line between the two typs of illusions. Now clones damage the oponent heavily like phantasms .
The traits "Infinit Horizon" with "Deceptive Evasion" give the Mesmer nearly the same amount of damage as if you run 2 offensive traitlines bevore (mostly "Illusions" + "Dueling").
This gives the Mirage the opportunity to run a very deffensive traitline like "Chaos".

With "Chaos" + "Duelling" + "Mirage" the Mesmer has a high uptime of permanent preasure on the opponent AND a very good sustain.
This leads the the point where playing against Mirage is very unsatisfying and playing as a Mirage feels very passive, because your clones do all the work for you.
Also the Mesmer doesn´t has to rely on 3-Clone+F2 combos anymore because the clones also preasure the opponent heavily.
The planed nerfs aren´t nesessary if "Infinit Horizon" itself gets nerfed.

" - Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
- Phantasmal Warlock:
Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
- Chaos Vortex:
Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only"

All changes want to lower the clone-production or the damage the clones do, to lower the preasure from "Infinit Horizon".

My suggestions is the following:

  • Give "Infinit Horizon" an ICD of 20 sec in PvP+WvW only
  • "Infinit Horizon" only activates if you have 1+ clones in PvE and 2+ clones in PvP+WvW

The results I see with this change:

  • With this change the Mirage is forced to change the playstyle. You lose a lot of damage if you just run "Chaos" + "Duelling" + "Mirage" after this change.
  • With a possible "Illusions" + "Duelling" + "Mirage"-Build the Mirage is forced to decide between an extra burst every 20 sec (if he runs "Infinit Horizon") or a condi-remove+stunbreak (if he runs "Elusive Mind"
  • "Infinit Horizon" won´t activate if it can´t produce any preasure in PvP (because you need 2+ clones)
  • "Infinit Horizon" is unchanged for PvE
  • Sword builds which just spam dodges and interrupt the opponent with random sword-ambush-skills can´t exist anymore
  • Playing against the Mirage feels better becaus you can time the condi-cleans better and the preasure the Mirage spams (in the current state) outside of the burst combos is lower
  • The mirage feels more active to play because you don´t get carried by your clones anymore

What are your thoughts on this topic?

<1

Comments

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    If you want mirage to be unplayable that would propably do it.
    IH is the reason you go mirage, remove it and its gone. and since you suggested taking Elusive Mind instead of IH im guessing you have never played with it, have you?

    (I often play with "Elusive Mind")
    Why whould this change make Mirage unplayable?
    Mirage is very passive at the Moment. You just evade the attacks of the opponent and your clones do the work for you. This is very borig to play and very annoying to play againt (even in Mirage vs Mirage).

    If Mirage is underperforming with my suggested changes A-Net will probably notice it.
    A nerf to "Infinit Horizon" gives also room for new buffs :)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    If you want mirage to be unplayable that would propably do it.
    IH is the reason you go mirage, remove it and its gone. and since you suggested taking Elusive Mind instead of IH im guessing you have never played with it, have you?

    (I often play with "Elusive Mind")
    Why whould this change make Mirage unplayable?
    Mirage is very passive at the Moment. You just evade the attacks of the opponent and your clones do the work for you. This is very borig to play and very annoying to play againt (even in Mirage vs Mirage).

    If Mirage is underperforming with my suggested changes A-Net will probably notice it.
    A nerf to "Infinit Horizon" gives also room for new buffs :)

    then propose buffs, if this change goes throught mirage becomes unplayable along the lines of chronomancer.
    as far as changes go, developers are trigger happy with gutting things we have, lost time, chrono, chaotic interuption, now staff nerf of 50%.
    just nerf after nerf. keep in mind its not only condi mirage that uses that trait, it hits power too.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    This is fine as long as you shave the exhaustion on elusive mind.
    Also no mirage that is sane is going to take EM as long as you can still dodge while stunned and take IH.
    They will just be very angry and take IH anyway unless they have to choose between damage and blowing up quick, or less damage but blowing up less quick.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • kill the clones

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rofl sry but that is so horrible it doesn't even need explanations. But in case you want some: Just read my posts in the other PvP balance thread, because i don't see any value in repeating myself another time.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    Reducing Mesmers clone generation from weapons to have opportunity costs between dmg traits and clone generation traits like DE is very good, i asked for that since the illusion rework. Sadly you still nerf Mesmers own and for that active sources of condi dmg instead the clone ambushes and clone autoattacks from condi weapons. Nerf these two remarkable and give more Condi dmg to shatters back. At this point just switch from one source to the other more active one, don't nerf more.

    You want, as I understand:

    • Condi-Damage from the Clones removed
    • More Condi-Damage on shatters
    • More active gameplay

    I suggest the following with my suggestion:

    • Why my proposed change would remove Condi-Damage from clones
    • Why I think the upcomming changes aren´t necessarry if "Infinit Horizon" gets a nerf
    • The "Illusions" traitline gets more attantion (it brings damage on shatters back)
    • The gameplay will be more active again because Clone-Ambush-Attacks wont carry the players damage anymore

    So why are my changes "horrible"?

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Reducing Mesmers clone generation from weapons to have opportunity costs between dmg traits and clone generation traits like DE is very good, i asked for that since the illusion rework. Sadly you still nerf Mesmers own and for that active sources of condi dmg instead the clone ambushes and clone autoattacks from condi weapons. Nerf these two remarkable and give more Condi dmg to shatters back. At this point just switch from one source to the other more active one, don't nerf more.

    You want, as I understand:

    • Condi-Damage from the Clones removed
    • More Condi-Damage on shatters
    • More active gameplay

    I suggest the following with my suggestion:

    • Why my proposed change would remove Condi-Damage from clones
    • Why I think the upcomming changes aren´t necessarry if "Infinit Horizon" gets a nerf
    • The "Illusions" traitline gets more attantion (it brings damage on shatters back)
    • The gameplay will be more active again because Clone-Ambush-Attacks wont carry the players damage anymore

    So why are my changes "horrible"?

    Because i can reach that goal without killing active gameplay parts of IH or even make the trait completely useless. Also you try to add stuff doesn't make sense at all like ICD on a dodge trait (even 20-30 secs rofl, try to do that to other dodge traits on other classes and wait for the reactions pls and suggest that Warrior dodge trait is only working when the Warrior has at least 2 bars of adrenaline up or something like that). Re-read the partt of my post about ICDs on dodge traits. You could have just said pls delete IH from the game and give nothing in return, that is what your suggestions are saying in fact.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    Because i can reach that goal without killing active gameplay parts of IH or even make the trait completely useless. Also you try to add stuff doesn't make sense at all like ICD on a dodge trait (even 20-30 secs rofl, try to do that to other dodge traits on other classes and wait for the reactions pls and suggest that Warrior dodge trait is only working when the Warrior has at least 2 bars of adrenaline up or something like that). Re-read the partt of my post about ICDs on dodge traits. You could have just said pls delete IH from the game and give nothing in return, that is what your suggestions are saying in fact.

    What is the active gameplay part of this trait? That you spam clones+damage if you use a dodge? You get your own ambush skill without "IH" and if you use it or not is your choice -> active gameplay.
    Other classes dont get a big part of the damage from just dodging (maybe Condi-DD or Staff-DD (both builds get a nerf)).
    My suggestion is in fact saying, that "IH" is in my opinion an unhealthy trait for the balance of the Mesmer/Mirage. This is why I want the spamy, passive gameplay, that follows if ppl run this trait, reduced.

    The reason why I think the trait should only trigger every 20 sec, if you have 2+ clones up, is that it wont get wasted by a random dodge with 0-1 clones up. If you have a minimum of 2+ clones up you have at least 2+ clones + yourself using the ambush skill so the trait wont lose any value to its current state, "only" that it wont spam abush skills anymore and that it will open new room for balance changes to bring the "lost" damage back to the mesmer itself or the shatter skills.

    Why do you think that the trait is healthy as it is now?

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    Because i can reach that goal without killing active gameplay parts of IH or even make the trait completely useless. Also you try to add stuff doesn't make sense at all like ICD on a dodge trait (even 20-30 secs rofl, try to do that to other dodge traits on other classes and wait for the reactions pls and suggest that Warrior dodge trait is only working when the Warrior has at least 2 bars of adrenaline up or something like that). Re-read the partt of my post about ICDs on dodge traits. You could have just said pls delete IH from the game and give nothing in return, that is what your suggestions are saying in fact.

    What is the active gameplay part of this trait? That you spam clones+damage if you use a dodge? You get your own ambush skill without "IH" and if you use it or not is your choice -> active gameplay.
    Other classes dont get a big part of the damage from just dodging (maybe Condi-DD or Staff-DD (both builds get a nerf)).
    My suggestion is in fact saying, that "IH" is in my opinion an unhealthy trait for the balance of the Mesmer/Mirage. This is why I want the spamy, passive gameplay, that follows if ppl run this trait, reduced.

    The reason why I think the trait should only trigger every 20 sec, if you have 2+ clones up, is that it wont get wasted by a random dodge with 0-1 clones up. If you have a minimum of 2+ clones up you have at least 2+ clones + yourself using the ambush skill so the trait wont lose any value to its current state, "only" that it wont spam abush skills anymore and that it will open new room for balance changes to bring the "lost" damage back to the mesmer itself or the shatter skills.

    Why do you think that the trait is healthy as it is now?

    I dont think you get why IH is mandatory, GL fighting holo, that gets free stability from your clones becouse IH cant dodge, perma CC immune burst super sustain guy that jut runs you down and steamrolls you, that doesnt even have to dodge your attacks becouse you attack with condi, so he can just facetank -> kill your kitten -> cleanse and heal with 0 brain.

    GL fighting warrior that just spins throught you and your clones, GJ ! you dodges that 8k spin, too bad your clones didnt, now you lost them all and he got 8 might, and healed for 2k becouse of it :D

    EDIT add 20s cs, since you dodge around every dunno, 6-8s? its just another 66% nerf to mesmer, i love it <3

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I dont think you get why IH is mandatory, GL fighting holo, that gets free stability from your clones becouse IH cant dodge, perma CC immune burst super sustain guy that jut runs you down and steamrolls you, that doesnt even have to dodge your attacks becouse you attack with condi, so he can just facetank -> kill your kitten -> cleanse and heal with 0 brain.

    This is why they nerf the qickness of the Holo to lower its counterpreasure and this is why they also lower the stab on Elixir-U to make it harder for the holo to cover "Corona Burst" with stability. Holo is very strong, but they try to nerf it slowly so I don´t see a problem there. As I told you bevore, changing "IH" gives room for new buffs to Mesmer.
    Maybe changing "Mirage Cloak" so, that it gives your illusions an evade by default would be a nice change (without triggering an ambush).

    GL fighting warrior that just spins throught you and your clones, GJ ! you dodges that 8k spin, too bad your clones didnt, now you lost them all and he got 8 might, and healed for 2k becouse of it :D

    Warrior don´t gets many different boons. If you don´t want to wait with "Arcane Thievery" to steal theyr resistance you can steal theyr might stacks. If they spin around, they also trigger your torment stacks. I agree with you, that the matchup is a very hard one.

    EDIT add 20s cs, since you dodge around every dunno, 6-8s? its just another 66% nerf to mesmer, i love it <3

    You got why I think a CD is necessary. You dodge every 6-8 sec. But I think its to strong if your clones spam every 6-8 sec a ambush skill. The Mesmers damage does not only come from your passive clone ambush-attacks. IF 66% of your damage is from clone ambush-attacks its a grat reason to split the damage more to the Mesmer himself (and this is the reason why I think the "IH" change is necessary :) )

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    I dont think you get why IH is mandatory, GL fighting holo, that gets free stability from your clones becouse IH cant dodge, perma CC immune burst super sustain guy that jut runs you down and steamrolls you, that doesnt even have to dodge your attacks becouse you attack with condi, so he can just facetank -> kill your kitten -> cleanse and heal with 0 brain.

    This is why they nerf the qickness of the Holo to lower its counterpreasure and this is why they also lower the stab on Elixir-U to make it harder for the holo to cover "Corona Burst" with stability. Holo is very strong, but they try to nerf it slowly so I don´t see a problem there. As I told you bevore, changing "IH" gives room for new buffs to Mesmer.
    Maybe changing "Mirage Cloak" so, that it gives your illusions an evade by default would be a nice change (without triggering an ambush).

    GL fighting warrior that just spins throught you and your clones, GJ ! you dodges that 8k spin, too bad your clones didnt, now you lost them all and he got 8 might, and healed for 2k becouse of it :D

    Warrior don´t gets many different boons. If you don´t want to wait with "Arcane Thievery" to steal theyr resistance you can steal theyr might stacks. If they spin around, they also trigger your torment stacks. I agree with you, that the matchup is a very hard one.

    EDIT add 20s cs, since you dodge around every dunno, 6-8s? its just another 66% nerf to mesmer, i love it <3

    You got why I think a CD is necessary. You dodge every 6-8 sec. But I think its to strong if your clones spam every 6-8 sec a ambush skill. The Mesmers damage does not only come from your passive clone ambush-attacks. IF 66% of your damage is from clone ambush-attacks its a grat reason to split the damage more to the Mesmer himself (and this is the reason why I think the "IH" change is necessary :) )

    IH should be made baseline, ambush clone should be nerfed by 70-90%, other GM traits should be reworked, other abilities should be buffed.
    just look at utilities we have, there is like 4-5 usable ones, rest are for meming, mb start there?
    I tried to play core power mesmer in pve, just looked at my elites and my utilities and said kitten it back to chrono.
    same thing in pvp

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    I dunno when you don't get the active part you have in general on dodge dmg traits even though i already explained then i don't know how to explain better. I mean you are right, the problem is, that the active part from IH on Condimes is very minimal because of the reasons i mentioned already: The condi ambushes are too passively designed. First they are only about dmg and not like sword mostly about having an effect you actively can react to and counter opponents moves as Mirage. The dmg part is secondary to barely relevant on clone sword ambush. Condi ambushes don't have that, they are purely about dmg application (that alone is not even a big problem but:). The second reason is, that the dmg application from clones (even on normal autoattacks not only ambushes) is so high, that it is rewarding enough for the Mesmer to just dodge defensive and kite and let clones do all the work. Another counterpart you don't have on Condimes is that you cannot force the Mesmer into dodging for his clones to make them survive (only classes with traitprocs on hit can still do that), because with all the double clone generation on weapons like scepter and staff the Mesmer can too easily create more clones if some get cleaved out (that is why reducing clone generations on these 2 weapons is the only nerf i agree to).
    All that reduce the trade offs you have in your dodge managements from dmg dodge traits very hard.

    But not only is the condi clone dmg too strong, the Mirage itself also doesn't rly have that much to compete in dmg applications with his own clones. Shatters are Mesmers and also Mirages class mechanic but as a Condimes you better don't shatter if you can avoid it. You sure don't shatter for dmg because your clones do more dmg with their attacks then the Mesmer does with his shatters. Means the only reasons to shatter is defensive (f4,f3) or only to finish off targets or when the Mesmer has all clone generation skills rdy and don't want to overwrite clones with new clones (then you use f2/f1). The active gameplay part from IH is pretty well burried under the wrong and passive design from the condi ambush skills.

    Maybe it helps to understand IH better when you think about it as a tool to command minions (never played GW1 but i heard you had minions there you could command somehow). The Mesmer telling his clones what to do by his dodge management. That is per se completely active in his basic nature and an interesting gameplay mechanic. All comes down to how ambushes are designed to adjust how skillfull and active IH is. And the less an ambush (or a dodge trait in general) is only about dmg but more about using effects to react to opponents moves, the higher the skill ceiling and the more active the whole mechanic will be.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @bravan.3876 said:
    I dunno when you don't get the active part you have in general on dodge dmg traits even though i already explained then i don't know how to explain better. I mean you are right, the problem is, that the active part from IH on Condimes is very minimal because of the reasons i mentioned already: The condi ambushes are too passively designed. First they are only about dmg and not like sword mostly about having an effect you actively can react to and counter opponents moves as Mirage. The dmg part is secondary to barely relevant on clone sword ambush. Condi ambushes don't have that, they are purely about dmg application (that alone is not even a big problem but:). The second reason is, that the dmg application from clones (even on normal autoattacks not only ambushes) is so high, that it is rewarding enough for the Mesmer to just dodge defensive and kite and let clones do all the work. Another counterpart you don't have on Condimes is that you cannot force the Mesmer into dodging for his clones to make them survive (only classes with traitprocs on hit can still do that), because with all the double clone generation on weapons like scepter and staff the Mesmer can too easily create more clones if some get cleaved out (that is why reducing clone generations on these 2 weapons is the only nerf i agree to).
    All that reduce the trade offs you have in your dodge managements from dmg dodge traits very hard.

    But not only is the condi clone dmg too strong, the Mirage itself also doesn't rly have that much to compete in dmg applications with his own clones. Shatters are Mesmers and also Mirages class mechanic but as a Condimes you better don't shatter if you can avoid it. You sure don't shatter for dmg because your clones do more dmg with their attacks then the Mesmer does with his shatters. Means the only reasons to shatter is defensive (f4,f3) or only to finish off targets or when the Mesmer has all clone generation skills rdy and don't want to overwrite clones with new clones (then you use f2/f1). The active gameplay part from IH is pretty well burried under the wrong and passive design from the condi ambush skills.

    I think we both want a adjustment of the "IH"-Clone-Machanic.
    You want to change to clone generation to adress the "problem" and I want to have the damage back on the Mesmer :)

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:
    I dunno when you don't get the active part you have in general on dodge dmg traits even though i already explained then i don't know how to explain better. I mean you are right, the problem is, that the active part from IH on Condimes is very minimal because of the reasons i mentioned already: The condi ambushes are too passively designed. First they are only about dmg and not like sword mostly about having an effect you actively can react to and counter opponents moves as Mirage. The dmg part is secondary to barely relevant on clone sword ambush. Condi ambushes don't have that, they are purely about dmg application (that alone is not even a big problem but:). The second reason is, that the dmg application from clones (even on normal autoattacks not only ambushes) is so high, that it is rewarding enough for the Mesmer to just dodge defensive and kite and let clones do all the work. Another counterpart you don't have on Condimes is that you cannot force the Mesmer into dodging for his clones to make them survive (only classes with traitprocs on hit can still do that), because with all the double clone generation on weapons like scepter and staff the Mesmer can too easily create more clones if some get cleaved out (that is why reducing clone generations on these 2 weapons is the only nerf i agree to).
    All that reduce the trade offs you have in your dodge managements from dmg dodge traits very hard.

    But not only is the condi clone dmg too strong, the Mirage itself also doesn't rly have that much to compete in dmg applications with his own clones. Shatters are Mesmers and also Mirages class mechanic but as a Condimes you better don't shatter if you can avoid it. You sure don't shatter for dmg because your clones do more dmg with their attacks then the Mesmer does with his shatters. Means the only reasons to shatter is defensive (f4,f3) or only to finish off targets or when the Mesmer has all clone generation skills rdy and don't want to overwrite clones with new clones (then you use f2/f1). The active gameplay part from IH is pretty well burried under the wrong and passive design from the condi ambush skills.

    I think we both want a adjustment of the "IH"-Clone-Machanic.
    You want to change to clone generation to adress the "problem" and I want to have the damage back on the Mesmer :)

    No sadly you didn't understand :disappointed: I want the dmg back to the Mesmer as well the only difference is that i want to adjust ambushes and not IH. That you still didn't understand why nerfing IH is contradicting the goal to make Condimes more active is kind of sad because i have no idea how to be more precise or how to break the problematic down to an even easier to understand lvl. Also your suggetsions are not even mindful nerf suggestions, it is a straight up rektage of the whole spec without any compensation, and as explained will dumb down the class not make it more skillful. I felt like reading an episode from the novel "A Mesmer hater in wonderland/ cockaigne"

    Too easy clone generation was just another point i made as a side note to explain the whole problem to you.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    Put damage back into shatters but give them cast times and animations so people have something to dodge.

    Lack of animations/instant cast, highly impactful skills in a game revolving around avoiding damage reactively is just bad design.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    ? mirage ambush are probably the most visible animation and tell currently, what did you want more ?

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said :
    You got why I think a CD is necessary. You dodge every 6-8 sec. But I think its to strong if your clones spam every 6-8 sec a ambush skill.

    If you think you can kill something with half a brain with 6-8 sec 3-4k on high animation delay, we don't play the same game and you clearly don't play mirage.

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:
    This is a pretty significant nerf to Mesmer as a whole, not just Mirage.

    ANet is going about changing things when the real culprit is IH/Ambush.

    New team, same mentality.

    agreed. Ambush gives damge as well as mobility (with sword) while IH makes clones too "tanky"
    i would also add mirage Cloak as a problem

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    This is a pretty significant nerf to Mesmer as a whole, not just Mirage.

    ANet is going about changing things when the real culprit is IH/Ambush.

    New team, same mentality.

    agreed. Ambush gives damge as well as mobility (with sword) while IH makes clones too "tanky"
    i would also add mirage Cloak as a problem

    clones literarly die to 1 auto attack, there is no such thing as clones being too tanky.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    This is a pretty significant nerf to Mesmer as a whole, not just Mirage.

    ANet is going about changing things when the real culprit is IH/Ambush.

    New team, same mentality.

    agreed. Ambush gives damge as well as mobility (with sword) while IH makes clones too "tanky"

    ambush give pressure or mobility fixed this for you because you know the ambush who give mobility + condi damage + direct damage didn't exist yet.
    IH makes clone not die in random AOE put out by many class in normal cycle but you have to play mesmer to figure this out.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The planned nerfs are what we need!

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Zawn.9647 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    This is a pretty significant nerf to Mesmer as a whole, not just Mirage.

    ANet is going about changing things when the real culprit is IH/Ambush.

    New team, same mentality.

    agreed. Ambush gives damge as well as mobility (with sword) while IH makes clones too "tanky"

    ambush give pressure or mobility fixed this for you because you know the ambush who give mobility + condi damage + direct damage didn't exist yet.
    IH makes clone not die in random AOE put out by many class in normal cycle but you have to play mesmer to figure this out.

    They still die to random aoe, you can just sometimes protect them from specific aoe you need them to avoid, mostly corona burst, warriors rampage leap and gs3 spin.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    The planned nerfs are what we need!

    hey, glad you are back.
    we missed your expertise on this topic. since you know more then us due to your high ranking, can you share with the rest what else needs to be done?

  • whats the matter? dodging to do loads of damage is great gameplay!

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    The planned nerfs are what we need!

    hey, glad you are back.
    we missed your expertise on this topic. since you know more then us due to your high ranking, can you share with the rest what else needs to be done?

    I'm not here to offer my expertise. Someone expressed their opinion and I'm entitled to have my own. I'm sure you've got issues with that but I'm not here to address your issues either. I support the proposed nerfs.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    whats the matter? dodging to do loads of damage is great gameplay!

    I prefer auto-ing 2 to 3 k or pop 4k minimum with every weapon skill like other direct damage class than to do a 2 sec delay 3k condi on evade if I have to choose.
    But I understand than "'load of damage" perception can differ between class.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    whats the matter? dodging to do loads of damage is great gameplay!

    I prefer auto-ing 2 to 3 k or pop 4k minimum with every weapon skill like other direct damage class than to do a 2 sec delay 3k condi on evade if I have to choose.
    But I understand than "'load of damage" perception can differ between class.

    throws gs 3 at warrior, critical hit! 908 damage.
    warrior throws axe, critical hit! 5670 damage.
    Internal sceam!

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    At first this post seemed normal.

    But then suddenly:

    @Fleckzeck.4673 said:

    • Give "Infinit Horizon" an ICD of 20 sec in PvP+WvW only
    • "Infinit Horizon" only activates if you have 1+ clones in PvE and 2+ clones in PvP+WvW

    20 seconds ICD for a trait. My fights against mirages don't last 20 seconds my dude... someone has to disengage/dies by then.
    Given how IH is the sole thing that keeps mirage from being renegade tier trash, only suggesting the smitersbooning of IH and nothing else would remove this spec from PvP(giving extra confusion to F2 will hardly compensate a 66% damage-potential nerf).

    So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

    Tfw you write 1000000 sentences to explain why it is not IH that is op and dumb but only the design of some condi ambsuhes and then you still read this... me meet the wall again... bloody head i welcome you

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

    Tfw you write 1000000 sentences to explain why it is not IH that is op and dumb but only the design of some condi ambsuhes and then you still read this... me meet the wall again... bloody head i welcome you

    Were you high writing this? If there is point in there somewhere, it's covered by many many layers of... something.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Given how IH is the sole thing that keeps mirage from being renegade tier trash
    So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way

    Something that non mesmer players understand but never devs of their own game... they balance ambushes like IH is a baseline for the mirage, oh ye, 50% dmg and cd nerfs as usual, minus cd this time. The most dumb decisions is what they are good at apparently

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

    Tfw you write 1000000 sentences to explain why it is not IH that is op and dumb but only the design of some condi ambsuhes and then you still read this... me meet the wall again... bloody head i welcome you

    Were you high writing this? If there is point in there somewhere, it's covered by many many layers of... something.

    I am always high but even more important: i am higher

    sry

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

    1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.
    2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
    3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
    4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    Given how IH is the sole thing that keeps mirage from being renegade tier trash
    So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way

    Something that non mesmer players understand but never devs of their own game... they balance ambushes like IH is a baseline for the mirage, oh ye, 50% dmg and cd nerfs as usual, minus cd this time. The most dumb decisions is what they are good at apparently

    When the 50% nerfs "as usual" make minimal difference then it's surely time for the next 50% nerfs. It shows how ridiculously broken the spec is. Good mirage players are still facerolling with this spec and it needs to stop. IH needs the nerf!

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

    Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

    Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

    Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

    Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

    sorry mate but you are in silver, what happens in silver should stay in silver.
    the higher you go, the better you get, the more you will realize that its not mirage thats busted. its holo.
    when I +1 people its the warrior that has a chance of winning 1v2, not mirage. mirage dodges,invulns. teleports once or twice and then flops dead.
    its warrior that can burst you down in 1,5s if you make a mistake.
    Most people dont get that this game is not about 1v1, every time you pick a build, you need to ask yourself what is your job, what do you bring to the team, towards what wincondition do you play.
    Condi mirage just autowins against some builds and it pisses people off, I get it, its easy to play and it kitten on some builds. On the other side of the coin lies the fact that some other builds kitten on condi mirage too. Personal feelings clouds judgment.
    The upcoming nerf to staff ambush is a step in the right direction, wrong reason as always. It sucks to be nerfed by 50% yet again, but the game will be better for it so ill take it in a good stride.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

    Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

    Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

    sorry mate but you are in silver, what happens in silver should stay in silver.
    the higher you go, the better you get, the more you will realize that its not mirage thats busted. its holo.
    when I +1 people its the warrior that has a chance of winning 1v2, not mirage. mirage dodges,invulns. teleports once or twice and then flops dead.
    its warrior that can burst you down in 1,5s if you make a mistake.
    Most people dont get that this game is not about 1v1, every time you pick a build, you need to ask yourself what is your job, what do you bring to the team, towards what wincondition do you play.
    Condi mirage just autowins against some builds and it pisses people off, I get it, its easy to play and it kitten on some builds. On the other side of the coin lies the fact that some other builds kitten on condi mirage too. Personal feelings clouds judgment.
    The upcoming nerf to staff ambush is a step in the right direction, wrong reason as always. It sucks to be nerfed by 50% yet again, but the game will be better for it so ill take it in a good stride.

    I'm not really in silver. But I'm not claiming to be an elite pro either. Sure I even go bronze with decay, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you either. What happens in silver actually matters way more than what happens in plat and silver players significantly outnumber plat players. Your vision is narrow and I don't think you get it. If you play in gold at all, you'll notice plenty of bots in gold 1 and 2 running Condi mirage and maintaining 50% win loss ratio. That says a lot!

    Don't take my hate for mirage in the wrong way. My point is simply that is a pointless brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players. If you understand the state of the game, often gold players face plat and above players at odd hours of the day. So what stays in gold doesn't often stay in gold only. I suggest you look at the fact of the broken spec and PvP population at the same time to understand how it is breaking the game.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

    Which good players ?
    Who are currently the goods players ?

  • Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭

    Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGE
    which is Infinite Horizon.
    If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.
    But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.
    This is also why they've gutted portal.

  • @Flandre.2870 said:
    Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGE
    which is Infinite Horizon.
    If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.
    But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.
    This is also why they've gutted portal.

    +1

    IH is for condi mes the same as chronophantasma is for phantasms.
    both needs to be deleted and forgotten

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

    Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

    Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

    sorry mate but you are in silver, what happens in silver should stay in silver.
    the higher you go, the better you get, the more you will realize that its not mirage thats busted. its holo.
    when I +1 people its the warrior that has a chance of winning 1v2, not mirage. mirage dodges,invulns. teleports once or twice and then flops dead.
    its warrior that can burst you down in 1,5s if you make a mistake.
    Most people dont get that this game is not about 1v1, every time you pick a build, you need to ask yourself what is your job, what do you bring to the team, towards what wincondition do you play.
    Condi mirage just autowins against some builds and it pisses people off, I get it, its easy to play and it kitten on some builds. On the other side of the coin lies the fact that some other builds kitten on condi mirage too. Personal feelings clouds judgment.
    The upcoming nerf to staff ambush is a step in the right direction, wrong reason as always. It sucks to be nerfed by 50% yet again, but the game will be better for it so ill take it in a good stride.

    I'm not really in silver. But I'm not claiming to be an elite pro either. Sure I even go bronze with decay, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you either. What happens in silver actually matters way more than what happens in plat and silver players significantly outnumber plat players. Your vision is narrow and I don't think you get it. If you play in gold at all, you'll notice plenty of bots in gold 1 and 2 running Condi mirage and maintaining 50% win loss ratio. That says a lot!

    Don't take my hate for mirage in the wrong way. My point is simply that is a pointless brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players. If you understand the state of the game, often gold players face plat and above players at odd hours of the day. So what stays in gold doesn't often stay in gold only. I suggest you look at the fact of the broken spec and PvP population at the same time to understand how it is breaking the game.

    I get it, I really do. But making mirage unplayable is not the right way. TBH mirage doesnt offer anything special for skilled players. Nerf them to the ground and they will get replaced with other braindead spec, mb even worse. Have you played against 1shot core mes? if not be happy that you didnt, kitten is more disgusting, condi thief, staffstaff thief. planty of classes for no skill.
    The way the game is set up bots sooner or later will have 50% winrate, played against couple of them in plat games, they just walk in, spam dodges, then f4, then they die.Very simple to deal with.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGE
    which is Infinite Horizon.
    If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.
    But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.
    This is also why they've gutted portal.

    The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

    1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.
    2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
    3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
    4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

    Calculating with realistic stats

    Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.

    Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.

    The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGE
    which is Infinite Horizon.
    If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.
    But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.
    This is also why they've gutted portal.

    Actually it's more than they nerf every other active gameplay so we have only choice to play passive than the opposite.
    I mean if they start by nerfing IH it didn't matter because at mirage beginning, people didn't use it and gameplay was about shatter condi burst.
    Now they nerf what people whine the more about :
    1) EM
    2) shatter
    2,5) portal because mesmer had a spot.
    3) ambush.
    Now people are whininh about IH and mirage cloak.
    I'm pretty sure PU will get some love too.

    Now If tomorrow you delete IH, how did you do something ? Mean you can allready try it by taking dune cloak. I'm not sure it will work good. (And they will never revert 15 patch nerf...)

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

    Which good players ?
    Who are currently the goods players ?

    Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

  • @BadMed.3846 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

    Which good players ?
    Who are currently the goods players ?

    Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

    he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.
    he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.
    Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

    Which good players ?
    Who are currently the goods players ?

    Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

    he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.
    he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.
    Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

    The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @BadMed.3846 said:
    brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

    Which good players ?
    Who are currently the goods players ?

    Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

    he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.
    he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.
    Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

    The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.

    Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.

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