Infinite Horizon suggestion - What if it scaled like a shatter?

Infinite Horizon is a pretty cool trait, but it has a handful of problems:

1. It competes with two amazing traits. Elusive Mind is an extremely valuable stun break/condi cleanse on dodge, while Dune Cloak is a great boost to our condition duration and another good source of condition application.
2. It's too underwhelming to actually be competition. It's a really good thing if your Grandmaster traits are stiff competition for one another, but unfortunately Infinite Horizon can't really stand up to the other two. It's hard to think of a situation outside of a "just for fun" open world setup where you'd take Infinite Horizon over the other two.
3. Part of the reason it's so underwhelming is because your clones just don't do enough with ambush attacks to make it worth it. Power-based ambushes do very little damage (though greatsword's better than sword there), while condition-based ambushes often don't let clones apply enough stacks of conditions to make them worth using over just having pistol phantasms up.

I tried to think about how Infinite Horizon could be buffed to be a more competitive trait and possibly a good option for PvE DPS without making it potentially overpowered. For example, if clones could copy your sword ambush with full damage, it might just be too much burst damage on-demand. If clones could apply full duration conditions with the scepter ambush, it might represent too much of a condition spike, especially given the issues condition damage already has with ramping up more quickly than ArenaNet intends.

So I looked at shatters--specifically, Mind Wrack. Mind Wrack's damage scaling changes based on how many illusions you shatter. With each illusion you shatter, the damage per illusion goes down, but it's still more total damage. That lets them tune the overall damage not to be too huge of a spike while still making it worth it to shatter multiple illusions.

What if we applied that to clones copying your ambush attacks with Infinite Horizon?

• Clones deal increased damage and apply conditions with a longer duration with ambush attacks.
• The damage and condition application is higher with three clones, but it's less damage/condition application per clone, to prevent massive spikes. I'm thinking something like: the clone does exactly as much as you do if you have one clone (so a total of 2x what your ambush would be without clones); the clones each do 85% of what you do if you have two clones (a total of 2.7x what your ambush would be without clones); and the clones each do 70% of what you do if you have three clones (a total of 3.1x your normal ambush). This is roughly equivalent to how Mind Wrack scales.
• To go with this, increase the damage dealt by ambushes. That would make the sword ambush, especially, worth using as a damage-dealing tool--almost like a secondary Mind Wrack that doesn't destroy your clones. That might even open up the possibility of Power-based clone builds; fancy that!
• In PvP, these ambushes should probably not change. As it stands now, the sword ambush, Mirage Thrust, is actually more similar to the Distraction shatter than Mind Wrack, and is actually very useful as a gap closer and potential interrupt. But in PvE, interrupts like that are significantly less valuable, and it needs more damage to be worth trading Endurance for.

I don't think this is a magic bullet that will solve all of Infinite Horizon's problems, but I think applying "total damage up, damage per clone down"-type scaling to Infinite Horizon would allow clones to deal more damage with ambushes without causing a gigantic increase in our ability to cause burst damage or spike up conditions.

I really like ur idea, but still think IH should be baseline, and exactly with this in Mind.The problem people fear with IH beeing baseline is that Ambushes could get even weaker. If u scale em equal to the F1 Scaling, we could even get stronger Ambushes, and let 3 clones for example scale with a total of 250% damage, instead of ur 310%.

U gotta do the Ambush strong, and the Clones may no be overpowered, so u are not relying on 3 Clones for Damage, or preventing from summoning a Phantasm. Power Builds get a sweet Burst, and condi builds without Power can use the conditions, without having an insane Power damage.

New infinite Horizon should either give ur Phantasms MirageCloak, which would lead into 3 phantasm meta again, or u'll get Mirage cloak, whenever u shatter 3 Illusions.

Second one would fit the name soooo well, cause u could basically go kind of infinite on mirage cloak with sword ambush, deceptive evasion and self decpetion.sowrd ambush, clone, jaunt,clone, sword 3, clone, shatter , sword ambush-clone,dodgetrait clone, jaunt clone, shatter.. repeat till shatters are all of CD, then cast Signet of Illusions. Third option is ; shattering a phantasm gives u Mirage Cloak/summons a mirror.

And btw , Mirgae Cloak has to be opened up for stacking it-> aka 2 dodges can be queded instantly and give 2 s mirage cloak and 2 s superspeed, etc.

@FaboBabo.3581 said:I really like ur idea, but still think IH should be baseline, and exactly with this in Mind.The problem people fear with IH beeing baseline is that Ambushes could get even weaker. If u scale em equal to the F1 Scaling, we could even get stronger Ambushes, and let 3 clones for example scale with a total of 250% damage, instead of ur 310%.

Here's a possible middle ground:

• Clones copying your ambushes is baseline, but the ambushes work like they do now, or maybe a little bit weaker on condition application.
• Infinite Horizon now has the following effect instead of its current one: "When your clones gain Mirage Cloak, their ambush attacks do more damage and apply longer-lasting conditions." In other words, the trait stays (mainly I just love the name "Infinite Horizon") and what it does is improve the ambush attacks your clones do in the way I suggested in the OP, rather than enabling those in the first place.

Would rather just move it to grandmaster minor and merge speed of sand with adept minor.

Then make a new grandmaster major trait dealing with mirage mirrors.

IH needs to be removed. Ambush attacks will never be well balanced as long as it stays in the game, even if it goes baseline. Best case scenario is it goes baseline, but then ambush attacks would be balanced around having 2 or 3 clones out, thus meaning most of our ambush attacks would still be weak shit, and that phantasms would still be detrimental to ambush attacks period. That's not good design.

As much fun as the trait is conceptually, and as pretty as it can be with some of the attacks, it just needs to be removed for the balance of ambush attacks.

IH is the most fun I'm having with mirage right now and I would hate for it to be removed.

I'd rather all phantasms be removed from mirage and replaced with clone skills than IH be removed.

i'd rather see desert shadows.phantasm and clone - skills produce desert shadows instead. Desert shadows have the same toughness and vitality as the mirage, as well as the same weapons, even swapping with the mirage. They deal 20% attack on "clone"-skills and auto attacks, as while as 100% dmg on "phantasm"-skills.All Desert Shadows currently on the battlefield mimic the mesmers actions once.

For example:Axe 2 will whirl u to ur target, producing a desert Shadow, which will cast Axe 2 once(not producing a clone ofc), and then proceeds to do auto attacks.If the Mirage uses another Axe 2 then, the first desert shadow will immediately cast it with ur, syncron, and u will prodcue another Desert Shadow, again casting Axe 2 once.

Now u Cast ur Pistol 4 ; It has another animation now ; Instead of shooting only once for the cripple, u instanly spawn a desert shadow next to you, and ALL Desert shadows fire there Pistol alongside with u 8 Times.

After this , they go on auto attacking again.

This way u have less frequent Phantasm attack, but u do now additionaly cast them urself.ALL illusions have worth, but all illusions can be resummoned fast, so u can shatter more frequently.

Perfect Sync from Illusions and Mesmer is a perfect MIRROR design, and overall fits the Mesmer.

The % - damage of clone Skills and auto attacks from Desert Shadow can be reduced or increased based of Balance.

Phantasm Skill become actual SKILLS , not just spamming 3 , go afk.

To be honest , this should be baseline for mesmer.

It would need a little bit of rework in balancing some phantasm skills and change some clone skills, but if done correctly i think this could make mesmer a lot of more fun to play, and solve some issues.

Maybe give Shatter Skills some love to make the difference between sustain/burst dmg - and sustained damage, with 3 illusions.Mix F1 + F2 ? , High Damage + High Confusion, New F2(F3) Stunning all Targets and get Might and Stability, New F3(F4) Additionally Heal for every Illusion Shattered.

Less Shatters overall = Better Shatter Traits = Even more worth Shattering, while not overpowered, cause less Shatters avaibleCrazy Chrono Synergy too.

How'd i design Shield 4 for example with the "desert shadow" mechanic ?

Create an Illusion. U and all Illusions gain Retaliation and Block attacks for 2 seconds.Attacking foes get slowed (intervall 1 sec, 1,5 sec slow)U and ur Illusions grant Alacrity to Allies after they blocked.

Instead of spawning a phantasm that deals damage and slows the enemy, retaliation damages the enemy and they get slowed by attacking. U keep the alacrity Buff for allies after a succesfull Block.

Functions basically remain the same, with different mechanics, while u could say Retaliation is a buff.

The more i think about it the more i like it.

Imagine Infinite Horizon with this illusions. It would be worthy a grandmaster. Normal Desert Shadows, cant dodge on there own, and they can only mimic attacks they have on there skillbar. They have all usual attacks on there skillbar, except the Ambush attacks, because they cant dodge.

Now if u trait infinite horizon, not only all shadows gain access to ambush skills, they additionaly blent into ur look, just as with the current infinite.BUT u can use infinite horizon + "phantasm"- builds, As the Ultimate Illusion Build. Clone Ambush Attacks would still deal less damage (20% just as the rest of none phantasm skills), but this is no loss, since again , u have ur phantasm attacks on the same illusions as ur ambush attacks.

Since our new illusions do more attacks then before, and all do auto attacks, which is way different then if we would run 3 phantasms, we can reduce the conditions those illusions apply on Clone - attacks(the20%dmg attacks). This way we could balance the condi-clone, power-clone design. (power clones still deal no damage, while condi clones apply the same conditions [except on scepter ambush..])Clone axe 2 hits and whirls only once, applying only 1 stack of torment and cripple for each illusion casting it.

Things like this

@Curunen.8729 said:IH is the most fun I'm having with mirage right now and I would hate for it to be removed.

I'd rather all phantasms be removed from mirage and replaced with clone skills than IH be removed.

You like the effects, and they are really pretty. But functionality must come out on top of aesthetics. We've discussed before that clones could just, baseline, fire the same animation as your ambush whenever you use one, and the effect is the same. But balance wise, its impossible to balance ambush attacks as long as IH exists in the game. I would much rather have balanced ambush attacks than a trait that for all intents and purposes is used for aesthetics.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:IH is the most fun I'm having with mirage right now and I would hate for it to be removed.

I'd rather all phantasms be removed from mirage and replaced with clone skills than IH be removed.

The clone staff ambushes apply the same level of condi and boons as your own, don't patronise people by saying they only like the pretty effects. Your position is so crazy, why do you want ANOTHER 3 phant and auto attack spec??? You should be demanding a better build for clones and ambushes from Mirage not some crappy Duelists build AGAIN.

Mirage will be the only spec Mesmer ever gets where the clones are designed to contribute to dps, this means it is the only spec where shattering is also a solid part of dps (because clones are summoned easily and YOU control their attack pattern - shatter when low on endurance and you can replace them easily), why are you trying to remove the mechanics which support this unique playstyle so you have a better axe ambush for 3 duelists?!

I'm not patronizing him, he's come out in other threads talking about how much he likes the effects of multiple ambush attacks going off at once. Don't be so quick to assume ill intent.

I'm not demanding a duelists build, I'm "demanding" that choices be made so that our skills can be properly balanced. I never said make clones useless, you made that up on your own. I stated, truthfully mind you, that ambush attacks cannot be balanced as long as IH exists in the game. Either they will be balanced around having 3 clones out, and thus be woefully weak in most situations, or they will be balanced around having no clones out and be extremely OP when you do get 3 clones out. Its impossible to balance ambush attacks as long as that trait exists in the game. Why you refuse to acknowledge that is beyond me.

And you are also incorrect about clones. On scepter they apply conditions for half the duration, on top of having pitiful power damage. On staff, well its a miracle if that orb hits anything in the first place. On GS they still deal low damage despite the buff. On Imaginary Axes they don't proc mirrored axes. Clone ambush attacks are not nearly as powerful as mesmer ambush attacks are in the first place.

^What Coulter said.

The more I've been playing IH with axe and staff the more I have been appreciating and getting familiar with the damage output from clone ambush.

It's not simply the visual aesthetics, it's a totally different playstyle that I welcome and do not want to see axed for no proper reason and devolving the most unique feature of mirage.

IH is awesome on staff, axe and scepter ambushes for damage - the ambushes just need a few qol tweaks. Sword ambush is likewise not bad with IH and can be balanced, as well as GS ambush which could be balanced again by number tweaks.

So my position is changed - I do not want to see any of the damage from IH removed. Rather I want to see the clone playstyle further supported in whatever way is most appropriate instead of "delete it because I don't believe it can be balanced"...

As said I'd rather mirage replaced all phantasms with clone skills and had you casting the phantasm's skill or something (ie you cast warden's bubble and summon a clone, or you spin through your enemies like iZerker and summon a clone behind you). Or you cast Unload (either summoning illusionary pistols or firing from the one pistol) and summon a clone, etc.

That is a much more interesting and varied playstyle than core or chrono.

Screams Chronophantasmaaaaaaa from a distance.

@OriOri.8724 said:ambush attacks cannot be balanced as long as IH exists in the game. Either they will be balanced around having 3 clones out, and thus be woefully weak in most situations, or they will be balanced around having no clones out and be extremely OP when you do get 3 clones out. Its impossible to balance ambush attacks as long as that trait exists in the game. Why you refuse to acknowledge that is beyond me.

Mesmer DPS cannot be balanced as long as Phantasms exists in the game. Either it will be balanced around having 3 Phantams out, and thus be woefully weak in most situations, or it will be balanced around having no Phantasms out and be extremely OP when you do get 3 Phantasms out. Its impossible to balance Mesmer DPS as long as Phantasms exists in the game. Why you refuse to acknowledge that is beyond me.

I rewrote it for you so you can see this issue existed before Mirage but with a different summon. Your complaint is that clones have been swapped for phantasms for this single elite spec, my counter is that clones should have a spec where they replace phantasms in the above paragraph (clones replacing phants also allows shatters to be used in dps builds as I explained earlier).

let's be honest , anet would not make any major changes, their model now seems to be more : get new content as fast as possible . polishing said content is something they might do it after 2-3 expac.

if they want to make so many changes ,they would have already communicated on forum or reddit like they did during Hot beta . only three persons(mainly) worked on elite spec . i won't expect much more after launch .

we will get a fix for something after half a year , then it will break main function of something until another fix comes after 1 year just like iwarden .look at so called power reaper buff or fix or scrapper drone , your dream of useful dps mirage will never come true.mesmer did not get any actual new mechanic (replace shatter) , what makes you guy think that anet will suddenly make ones by fixing an elite spec , if they try to fix lol

i feel they intend to make new pof op comparing to hot one to sell happily . nerf will come to all class including mirage .then we will face ugly side of meta : 20% ele dmg buff but nerf fun complicated rotation so you can have noob ele doing 80% potential dps . they did this to hot elite , why you think they will suddenly change with even less man power for balancing .

at this point , don't buy gem is most useful vote you can make .

Tbh on that note clones are far easier to pop out with maximised endurance gain, DE and SD and together with high uptime of evade sharing are far more survivable than phantasms on core or chrono.

Only in large scale wvw blob fights is it an issue - but then the entire illusion mechanic is rendered useless in such fights anyway, clone or phantasm.

In pve it's really easy to keep 3 clones out almost always, and in pvp you produce them faster than they get killed/shattered assuming maximising endurance regain through gear. And yeah that's the fun thing - you're not punished for shattering given how easy it is to reproduce clones, and neither are clones simply shatter fodder.

Ok in my previous post I shouldn't have really talked about scepter as I neither like nor use it much - and if the damage is lower for clone ambush it could simply get a damage buff.

Axe and staff though are great - staff could just use either tracking, wider effect radius and slightly shaved cast time, and axe possibly a bit more damage and range. DE on particular with axe is great as it allows you to cover cast axe2 with an evade, and get an ambushing clone out. A full three clone melee ambush into axe3 into F1 or F2 is not negligable - and in that situation a follow up dodge, swap weapon to staff (energy sigil proc), cover mirror heal cast (adventurer rune proc) into another dodge or similar sequence again gets clones out rapidly. Even easier with SD as you could just Jaunt around and kitten out clones.

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:ambush attacks cannot be balanced as long as IH exists in the game. Either they will be balanced around having 3 clones out, and thus be woefully weak in most situations, or they will be balanced around having no clones out and be extremely OP when you do get 3 clones out. Its impossible to balance ambush attacks as long as that trait exists in the game. Why you refuse to acknowledge that is beyond me.

point is anet pretty much did not really balance the number around 3 phantasm if they ever did try .for 5 years , even counting with 3 phantasm our dps is not worth to theory crafting level.for real , look back anet did not really balance numbers for pve dps . most likely they balanced game around popularity and pvp . that's what happened to support tempest being highest dps for almost a year .when there is only one raid boss that requires burst dmg , anet think burst vs long term dps is somehow rational reason for power being weaker dps .(they don't have such purpose for pvp tho).

the issue is simple , anet idea of mes is always same —— hiding behind clones which is proved not working in all game mode but they still think so .just look at mirage introduction video .as long as they have that mindset , mesmer will suffer from it . our argument is for nothing really .

@OriOri.8724 said:Best case scenario is it goes baseline, but then ambush attacks would be balanced around having 2 or 3 clones out, thus meaning most of our ambush attacks would still be weak kitten

See, the problem I have with this is that it applies to shatters, too, and ultimately they mostly work. Back when GW2 launched, the ability for the Mesmer to count as an illusion in shatters was a trait called Illusionary Persona. Eventually it went baseline and it turns out it didn't really upset the balance of shatters.

In fact, my entire post is about applying the same logic used to balance Mind Wrack to ambush attacks, because it works with Mind Wrack. To reiterate: the amount of damage done by each shattered illusion down the more illusions you shatter, but the total damage goes up because it all still adds up to more damage. I'm saying we can apply that to ambush attacks, too: the damage per clone goes down for each clone you have out, but the total damage goes up. If you do an ambush attack with no clones out, it'd be exactly as it is now; one clone out, it's stronger; two clones out, stronger still, but each individual clone is doing slightly less so that it's not literally triple your damage; and so on.

And really, aren't our ambush attacks weak right now anyway? The condition damage ones are pretty good, but the power ones are awful, and taking Infinite Horizon doesn't help because clones still don't do real damage.

On the one hand, it's worth noting that the sword ambush, Mirage Thrust, is a lot more similar to Diversion than Mind Wrack, if we're comparing it to a shatter--its main job is to be an interrupt, not a burst of damage. But I'm arguing that it should also have a good damage component, specifically in PvE, to open up the possibility of sword Mirage being used more often there.

I also have an issue with this argument:

@OriOri.8724 said:...and that phantasms would still be detrimental to ambush attacks period. That's not good design.

Right now, that's pretty easy to flip around. Clones are detrimental to phantasms, period. I don't necessarily think it's good design--I have a pretty big thread on this board about how I think phantasms need a from-the-ground-up rework--but it's how things have been for five years, so it's clearly intended.

Any suggestion I make for improving Infinite Horizon is to give Mirage the option of playing a DPS Mesmer without relying on phantasms, which is something I think a lot of us would love the option to do. My preferred solution is to make us less reliant on phantasms period, but barring that, I think Mirage has a lot of potential to be a different kind of DPS Mesmer, and I think all of that potential is in Infinite Horizon.

And I don't think it's so bad that this clones-over-phantasms version of Mirage wouldn't really want phantasms to stick around. Right now, if you play a DPS Mesmer, you want to avoid using clones at all costs, because they're going to replace a much stronger phantasm. So you shatter them away or you try not to summon them in the first place. Making Infinite Horizon a viable DPS option just flips that around: now it's the phantasms you want to shatter away or avoid summoning. Maybe that's not much better, but it's different and it certainly isn't worse. I'd also argue it's slightly better because now it lets you more easily work shatters into a DPS rotation--you're not married to your phantasms anymore, and the clones you're going to shatter are easily replaceable so you can get right back to your normal rotation and ambush attacks.

@Coulter.2315 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:ambush attacks cannot be balanced as long as IH exists in the game. Either they will be balanced around having 3 clones out, and thus be woefully weak in most situations, or they will be balanced around having no clones out and be extremely OP when you do get 3 clones out. Its impossible to balance ambush attacks as long as that trait exists in the game. Why you refuse to acknowledge that is beyond me.

And ambush attacks are independent of phantasms, so this isn't even relevant. You're willing to let an entire skill category be woefully underpowered just because you can't bear the thought of having it be truly balanced when IH is removed.

@OriOri.8724 said:You're willing to let an entire skill category be woefully underpowered just because you can't bear the thought of having it be truly balanced when IH is removed.

It is entirely possible to balance something to be usable with different numbers of clones out without making it overpowered if you have three clones. Look at Mind Wrack and the OP of this thread: all you have to do is make each individual clone to less damage the more clones there are, but they add up to do more damage with more clones. That's exactly how Mind Wrack works in the game now. Let me break it down for you:

• If you use Mind Wrack with no illusions out, it has a 1.15 damage coefficient--you shatter "yourself" and deal that much damage. The coefficient per illusion is 1.15.
• If you use Mind Wrack with one illusion, it has a total coefficient of 2.3, which is twice what you'd get if you only shattered yourself. The illusion is doing exactly the same amount of damage as the Mesmer himself. So far, it's linear. The coefficient per illusion is 1.15.
• If you use Mind Wrack with two illusions, it has a total coefficient of 2.76. Now it's not linear anymore. If it kept up the scaling of a zero- or one-illusion Mind Wrack, you'd expect the coefficient to be 3.45, but it isn't. Instead, the coefficient per illusion is 0.92.
• Finally, if you use Mind Wrack with three illusions, it has a total coefficient of 3.22. Again, not linear--if it had been linear, this would be 4.6. The coefficient per illusion is 0.805.

Basically, it doesn't scale linearly. ArenaNet saw that if it did, Mind Wrack would either need to be extremely weak with no illusions or just one illusion, or it would be extremely strong with three illusions.

That's exactly what you're saying would be unavoidable if clones did more damage with ambush attacks. It isn't unavoidable. It has, in fact, been avoided before.

I'll add some math here to demonstrate what I mean.

With Mind Wrack, the base damage is 306, with a power coefficient of 1.15. If you shatter one illusion, that doubles, because the Mesmer and the illusion do the same damage. With two illusions, the power coefficient per illusion drops to 0.92, which is 80% of what it was; with three illusions, it's 0.805, which is 70% of what it was.

Now let's look at Mirage Thrust and I'll work it out the same way. Right now, Mirage Thrust has a power coefficient of 1.0 for the Mesmer with a base damage of 367, and clones don't do any appreciable damage. So we'll start with a coefficient per attacker of 1.0 (hey, this'll be some nice, easy math). Now, if we say that sword clones using Mirage Thrust should also deal good damage and apply the exact same scaling that Mind Wrack uses:

• If you use Mirage Thrust with one illusion copying you, it deals the same damage you do. That's a total coefficient of 2.0, with a coefficient per attacker of 1.0.
• If you use Mirage Thrust with two illusions copying you, each attacker deals 80% of the normal damage, so the coefficient per attacker becomes 0.8, and the total damage coefficient is 2.4. Though I'd suggest in this case that the Mesmer should retain the full coefficient, so the total should actually be 2.6 (1.0 for the Mesmer, 0.8 for each clone).
• If you use Mirage Thrust with three illusions copying you, each attacker deals 70% of the normal damage, with a coefficient per attacker of 0.7. The total damage coefficient becomes 2.8. Again, though, if we keep the Mesmer doing full damage, the total would be 3.1 (1.0 for the Mesmer, 0.7 for each clone).

That's actually weaker than Mind Wrack, incidentally, even if we allow the Mesmer to continue dealing full damage. Maybe it should be, because it doesn't destroy your clones, though even if it was buffed to be stronger than Mind Wrack I don't think that'd make power Mirage DPS all that crazy. (Again, I'm talking about PvE here--in PvP, Mirage Thrust should stay exactly how it is, because PvP Mesmers really don't need even more burst.)

You wrote all of that up as if MW is similar at all power levels. Yet in reality MW is still weak if you don't have any illusions out. Its still balanced around having illusions out to shatter. Same would happen with ambush attaks. Its just better to remove IH from the game entirely.

@OriOri.8724 said:You wrote all of that up as if MW is similar at all power levels. Yet in reality MW is still weak if you don't have any illusions out. Its still balanced around having illusions out to shatter. Same would happen with ambush attaks. Its just better to remove IH from the game entirely.

It's not that it "would happen" with ambush attacks. Ambush attacks are already weak. I'm not suggesting weakening them for the sake of letting clones also do damage--I'm saying let the clones also do damage on top of what the ambush attacks already do.

@OriOri.8724 said:You wrote all of that up as if MW is similar at all power levels. Yet in reality MW is still weak if you don't have any illusions out. Its still balanced around having illusions out to shatter. Same would happen with ambush attaks. Its just better to remove IH from the game entirely.

I mean, sword and great sword ambushes will never be an issue damage wise unless anet goes out of their way to do so, and Scepter has a built in nerf on it's clone ambush damage already. That leaves Axe and Staff. Here's the thing, right now, Axe and Staff work pretty great with IH in a clone build. The damage is pretty even with Dune Cloak, and it helps clones survive MUCH better. If your contention is that Ambushes do too little damage across the board, well, there is no reason you couldn't apply the scepter treatment to Axe and Staff if ambushes were just given a flat buff. Clones from these two still do less damage the Pistol Phantasms anyway, so you could give ambushes a small buff without doing anything and they would still be fine.

@OriOri.8724 said:

And ambush attacks are independent of phantasms, so this isn't even relevant. You're willing to let an entire skill category be woefully underpowered just because you can't bear the thought of having it be truly balanced when IH is removed.

I cannot bear the thought of another phantasm build, which is what you're arguing for. My analogy was perfectly understandable, don't play the idiot.