Sword 2 is the problem with condi thief, it has always been the problem. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sword 2 is the problem with condi thief, it has always been the problem.

Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 3, 2019 in PVP

The spammable nature of thief skills allows players to stack the poison triggered from panic strike, and there are 3 weapon skills thief has that can immobilize you.

Body shot, spotter's shot, and infiltrators strike.

The reason sword 2 is problematic, and not the traits panic strike or the other two weapons, is that sword 2 does not require line of sight.

You port in, steal, and then dodge, striking them with lotus daggers.

During that duration of immobile, you hit them with all of that and they can't dodge.

Body shot is slow and easily dodged, kited, and los.

Spotter's shot can not be used with lotus training.

Sword 2 keeps its efficacy while other configurations are being damaged and lowered in power.

If you want to keep the design of the traits, and thief without that much work, simply REMOVE the immobile from sword 2.

Replace it with chill or cripple.

The build will fade into oblivion and other manageable condi thieves can play on without you having to recalculate how to make them work without deleting them.

It really is that simple.

Please remove the immobile off sword 2.

INB4 Power thieves say but but I need that to do damage....no you don't, and chill and cripple will work just fine. Maybe start asking for sword buffs else where.

Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Thief is my obsession.

Comments

  • nah its panic strike that allows this build to exist.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If 95% (made up number but probably pretty accurate) of the condi thieves you see are S/D Condi Daredevil, it's not hard to trace where the issue is.

    Look over the complaints, and what they are talking about in terms of what type of condi thief.

    You saw the videos they used for evidence...what kind of thief was it?

    Where are the complaints about P/D condi thieves?

    Where are the complaints about condi deadeye?

    Where are the complaints about dagger/dagger condi thief?

    Where are the complaints about any condi thief that is not S/D Condi Daredevil?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    nah its panic strike that allows this build to exist.

    Panic Strike on it's own does only poison on immob (and immob on HP threshold), which is only problem with S#2 because it lacks counterplay and provides too much value for spamming.
    As you can see Panic Strike is not, nor ever was since its change, a problem for any other weaponset Thief has.

    S#2 is multiple problems packed in to one skill that is merely taking advantage of a trait that is not oveperforming anywhere else or in any other scenario.

    Removing Immob from S#2 would solve all those issues, since the fact it can port from behind walls is only ever useful for Condi Builds since when they port back their dmg keeps on ticking unlike Power builds.
    Which means by removing Immob, Power Builds get to keep their much needed slight advantage (power builds only receive a moment of reprive if porting back and forth from behind walls but so does their opponent) and Condi S/D gets its most opressive issue solved without hiting both existing and nonexistent condi builds.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • @Alatar.7364 said:
    As you can see Panic Strike is not, nor ever was since its change, a problem for any other weaponset Thief has.

    clearly you haven't faced anything but sword condi teef. there are other weapons ya know.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    As you can see Panic Strike is not, nor ever was since its change, a problem for any other weaponset Thief has.

    clearly you haven't faced anything but sword condi teef. there are other weapons ya know.

    The fact I did is why I state what you now quote...

    Nonetheless I dont deny it can be issue in WvW, but we got splits for that.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    yeah they need to remove imob from sword 2 but they can still use shortbow to poison you to death before you can even react

  • @Alatar.7364 said:
    snips

    the fact that sword 2 isn't a problem on power should tell you all you need to know.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    snips

    the fact that sword 2 isn't a problem on power should tell you all you need to know.

    I explained in my post why S#2 is not a problem on Power Builds and why that also means that nerfing Panic Strike would nerf everything and not the only build that's exploiting with it.

    Its simple, you nerf Panic Strike = you nerf multiple builds and likely prevent future ones from exiting.
    You change Immob on S#2 you nerf only Condi S/D. Power S/X would benefit the same if not more actually, from chill or what I'd like more, slow.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    This totally unfair call for power s/d which I dont remember seeing complaints about. I still believe the issue is panic strike because if there was no immobilize on sword #2 then no 1 would take sword in the first place, it just so happens that sword 2 is the easiest way to proc poison with panic strike and there for proccing the potent poison trait.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    snips

    the fact that sword 2 isn't a problem on power should tell you all you need to know.

    I explained in my post why S#2 is not a problem on Power Builds and why that also means that nerfing Panic Strike would nerf everything and not the only build that's exploiting with it.

    Its simple, you nerf Panic Strike = you nerf multiple builds and likely prevent future ones from exiting.
    You change Immob on S#2 you nerf only Condi S/D. Power S/X would benefit the same if not more actually, from chill or what I'd like more, slow.

    You for get that you can immob 3 people at once and in a team fight that's pretty deadly because even for 1/2 a sec no 1 can dodge and that far outweighs chill in that respect, I doubt chilled will benefit much today anymore

  • noot.8641noot.8641 Member ✭✭

    It isn’t n2 on sword that is the problem, the prob is that immob gives poison stacks when u applicate it.
    If anything had to happen it should be the poison application on immob, and not n2 on sword.
    n2 on sword is how it’s been since launch bro, now after 7 year you qq about it? Like how many threads have i seek from you that qq about n2..

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    The spammable nature of thief skills allows players to stack the poison triggered from panic strike, and there are 3 weapon skills thief has that can immobilize you.

    Body shot, spotter's shot, and infiltrators strike.

    The reason sword 2 is problematic, and not the traits panic strike or the other two weapons, is that sword 2 does not require line of sight.

    You port in, steal, and then dodge, striking them with lotus daggers.

    During that duration of immobile, you hit them with all of that and they can't dodge.

    Body shot is slow and easily dodged, kited, and los.

    Spotter's shot can not be used with lotus training.

    Sword 2 keeps its efficacy while other configurations are being damaged and lowered in power.

    If you want to keep the design of the traits, and thief without that much work, simply REMOVE the immobile from sword 2.

    Replace it with chill or cripple.

    The build will fade into oblivion and other manageable condi thieves can play on without you having to recalculate how to make them work without deleting them.

    It really is that simple.

    Please remove the immobile off sword 2.

    INB4 Power thieves say but but I need that to do damage....no you don't, and chill and cripple will work just fine. Maybe start asking for sword buffs else where.

    Ok, run condi s/d with out panic strike and let's see how effective it is.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, lets delete sword 2 in order to nerf condi teef and hit sw/d power build with ricochet making all d/p teefs that after Steal "adjust" went for sw/d to go back into d/p.
    You know what, lets just admit it once again:

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally, I am all for taking a look at the skill's engage/disengage potential.

    Counter pressure - and being able to counter pressure your opponent - is an extremely important method of damage mitigation. d/p had burst, but was relatively okay to deal with cuz there wasn't a built in retreat to the weapon, nor could dp#3 be used from LoS (and then be used to retreat again out of LoS). Once the dp thief was in, they were in, and had to either swap to shortbow and make use of SB#5 as an expensive escape or use a utility.

    Even s/d power thief isn't as MUCH of an issue because of the way it deals damage - steal (or swipe, as it were) contributes to burst, but doesn't apply 5k+ worth of poison damage. sword#2 serves as the gap closer, but contributes very little to burst. They're forced to use sword#3 evade, and then are vulnerable while casting the second chain skill or AAing. Meanwhile, condi thief ports in, immob, dodge, then retreats and that's their burst. Not only is there far less opportunity for counterplay, but the more frequent engage-disengage to deal damage synergizes pretty well with thief's weakness application, too.

    That's not to say I like the design of sword#2 as a whole -the design just meshes really well with how condi thief deals damage, and not so well with how a power thief has to deal damage. Unfortunately, I doubt anet has the time or the inclination to dedicate the effort to redesigning sword#2 and keeping theif viable. Failing that, removing the immob is a good way to hit condi thief without overnerfing power variants. Yadda yadda immob makes it extremely easy to stack up condi burst, and so on and so forth.

  • @Alatar.7364 said:
    Its simple, you nerf Panic Strike = you nerf multiple builds and likely prevent future ones from exiting.

    yeah, good. teef has too much evasion/ stealth/ kiting potential for a ranged condi build to ever be balanced.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    Buff teef pls

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    nah its panic strike that allows this build to exist.

    Nerfing panic strike punishes all builds that need immob when it is the most useful: when the opponent is approaching low HP and is beginning to panic.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    the fact that sword 2 isn't a problem on power should tell you all you need to know.

    It isn't, but at the same time I'd live just fine with chill, a bit of slow, or something else that doesn't require I stack poison on Sword+2. Power builds dont need the immob to be effective on Sword 2 as much as they need panic strike to finish people looking to go heal.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • why would you assume i'm talking about the immob portion of that trait? its the whole deadly arts poison bloat that i'm referring to.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    Move the trait back to dagger training and buff dagger training to 240 power/condo if A dagger is wielded to help out d/p as well and just make another trait all together that's a buff to sword in particular or somthing or a replica of preparedness lol

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    The spammable nature of thief skills allows players to stack the poison triggered from panic strike, and there are 3 weapon skills thief has that can immobilize you.

    Body shot, spotter's shot, and infiltrators strike.

    The reason sword 2 is problematic, and not the traits panic strike or the other two weapons, is that sword 2 does not require line of sight.

    You port in, steal, and then dodge, striking them with lotus daggers.

    During that duration of immobile, you hit them with all of that and they can't dodge.

    Body shot is slow and easily dodged, kited, and los.

    Spotter's shot can not be used with lotus training.

    Sword 2 keeps its efficacy while other configurations are being damaged and lowered in power.

    If you want to keep the design of the traits, and thief without that much work, simply REMOVE the immobile from sword 2.

    Replace it with chill or cripple.

    The build will fade into oblivion and other manageable condi thieves can play on without you having to recalculate how to make them work without deleting them.

    It really is that simple.

    Please remove the immobile off sword 2.

    INB4 Power thieves say but but I need that to do damage....no you don't, and chill and cripple will work just fine. Maybe start asking for sword buffs else where.

    Ok, run condi s/d with out panic strike and let's see how effective it is.

    Or run Condi S/D without S#2 and see how effective it is?
    The Argument is the same for both ideas, only one of them also happens to nerf multiple builds/options/weaponsets and the other only the targeted one with a very negligible impact in the Power S/D.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nerfing panic strike punishes all builds that need immob when it is the most useful: when the opponent is approaching low HP and is beginning to panic.

    also its funny that you're defending a passive proc and want to remove the same effect on a weapon skill. bit of gold right there.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    The spammable nature of thief skills allows players to stack the poison triggered from panic strike, and there are 3 weapon skills thief has that can immobilize you.

    Body shot, spotter's shot, and infiltrators strike.

    The reason sword 2 is problematic, and not the traits panic strike or the other two weapons, is that sword 2 does not require line of sight.

    You port in, steal, and then dodge, striking them with lotus daggers.

    During that duration of immobile, you hit them with all of that and they can't dodge.

    Body shot is slow and easily dodged, kited, and los.

    Spotter's shot can not be used with lotus training.

    Sword 2 keeps its efficacy while other configurations are being damaged and lowered in power.

    If you want to keep the design of the traits, and thief without that much work, simply REMOVE the immobile from sword 2.

    Replace it with chill or cripple.

    The build will fade into oblivion and other manageable condi thieves can play on without you having to recalculate how to make them work without deleting them.

    It really is that simple.

    Please remove the immobile off sword 2.

    INB4 Power thieves say but but I need that to do damage....no you don't, and chill and cripple will work just fine. Maybe start asking for sword buffs else where.

    Ok, run condi s/d with out panic strike and let's see how effective it is.

    Or run Condi S/D without S#2 and see how effective it is?
    The Argument is the same for both ideas, only one of them also happens to nerf multiple builds/options/weaponsets and the other only the targeted one with a very negligible impact in the Power S/D.

    i dont think sword 2 was intended to port in and out only to proc cheese poison stacks, especially from behind walls . you CAN play p/d or traps to work with panic strike but that takes way too much effort and too much time as well, though in wvw you can get it to work. you are totally wrong btw about "very negligible impact in the Power S/D" , we already get cripple with dancing dagger and chill wont do much. i use to run d/p staff in zerg fights in wvw but switched to s/p and the immobilze on port is very useful because i can lock 3 people at once and nerfing that will ruin the whole point of s/x (which may i add is meant to be based around power builds, not condi) but because of 1 trait everyone thinks its sw2 issue.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why would you assume i'm talking about the immob portion of that trait? its the whole deadly arts poison bloat that i'm referring to.

    ?

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    nah its panic strike that allows this build to exist.

    If you were talking about the deadly arts poison bloat in general being the cause for condi thief overperformance, then you should specify that. Even if you mean specifically the poison stacks on Panic Strike being too much when boosted by deadly arts, those only start with an immob, and by adjusting the frequency of immob you by extension adjust the frequency of the poison.

    If you mean the former, then you need to address why, as @Crab Fear.1624 stated, we dont see a bunch of thieves running all manner of other condi builds with heavy success. It is only the one being mentioned that is causing problems outside of being outplayed.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:
    Its simple, you nerf Panic Strike = you nerf multiple builds and likely prevent future ones from exiting.

    yeah, good. teef has too much evasion/ stealth/ kiting potential for a ranged condi build to ever be balanced.

    I see.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Nerfing panic strike punishes all builds that need immob when it is the most useful: when the opponent is approaching low HP and is beginning to panic.

    also its funny that you're defending a passive proc and want to remove the same effect on a weapon skill. bit of gold right there.

    Because the passive proc is useful in all manner of builds and those shouldn't be punished if they are not overperforming and we can address the one that is without disturbing other synergies.

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    i can lock 3 people at once and nerfing that will ruin the whole point of s/x (which may i add is meant to be based around power builds, not condi) but because of 1 trait everyone thinks its sw2 issue.

    That being said, this is important to consider as well. The main thing is to balance S/x condi as non-destructively as possible. can we instead apply another condi or two in a small area that is also debilitating?

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Itz Jay.8941Itz Jay.8941 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    The spammable nature of thief skills allows players to stack the poison triggered from panic strike, and there are 3 weapon skills thief has that can immobilize you.

    Body shot, spotter's shot, and infiltrators strike.

    The reason sword 2 is problematic, and not the traits panic strike or the other two weapons, is that sword 2 does not require line of sight.

    You port in, steal, and then dodge, striking them with lotus daggers.

    During that duration of immobile, you hit them with all of that and they can't dodge.

    Body shot is slow and easily dodged, kited, and los.

    Spotter's shot can not be used with lotus training.

    Sword 2 keeps its efficacy while other configurations are being damaged and lowered in power.

    If you want to keep the design of the traits, and thief without that much work, simply REMOVE the immobile from sword 2.

    Replace it with chill or cripple.

    The build will fade into oblivion and other manageable condi thieves can play on without you having to recalculate how to make them work without deleting them.

    It really is that simple.

    Please remove the immobile off sword 2.

    INB4 Power thieves say but but I need that to do damage....no you don't, and chill and cripple will work just fine. Maybe start asking for sword buffs else where.

    I'd sooner see d/p theif reverted back to original and be getting wrecked by it than thieves having to use s/d its such a dumb set quite literally as you said you just press 2... It's boring to play and play against..

    Bring back d/p.

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