GUT ThIEF/mES and ignore BROKE FB Mantra Bunker & Symbol Brand — Guild Wars 2 Forums

GUT ThIEF/mES and ignore BROKE FB Mantra Bunker & Symbol Brand

Bear.9568Bear.9568 Member ✭✭✭

LOGICAL

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  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Bear.9568 said:
    LOGICAL

    Anet still use forum feedback as base for their balance decisions and because FB symbolbrand is arguably harder to play than a condi thief/condi mirage , there will be less chance for a whining thread to appear on the forum while decent players know that a symbol brand Fb is vastly superior as duellist....this is the main reason balance stays bad in GW2 . They tend to nerf builds the average Joe complain about on the forum and leave other unseen specs out of the equation ..with time these specs will end up polarizing the whole game as good players swarm to them with catastrofic results

    ye, gave good ol condi mirage a spin, after 2 kitten minutes of dueling firebrand, and him eating literarly every single ability of mine he died, and started whining on all chat. yikes.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Bear.9568 said:
    LOGICAL

    Anet still use forum feedback as base for their balance decisions and they tend to nerf builds the average Joe complain about on the forum and leave other unseen specs out of the equation

    Eh that's only half of it.

    A lot of nerfing & buffing that they do just quite seriously "comes out of left field" for absolutely no reason at all. As if they were throwing darts at a wall or something.

    They have repeatedly stated that they don't pay much attention to feedback and go mostly by metrics (collected data, algorithms, etc.). And if you look at how well these approaches work on any platform (which isn't great) you can start to see the problem.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Tempest, Water mage | Also Bappy Pawbeans, Soulbeast | ♀♥♀
    Sorry if I seem annoying or harsh, I'm just bad at communicating properly. ><
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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Symbol Firebrand is concerning but it hasn't become much of a thing in ranked yet from my experience. If it starts to trend really upward, which it might, we can address it as it comes.

    But now that groups are widely running ATs with Double Firebrand shows something really does need to be done about the Elite Specialization.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Symbol FB isn't broken, the actual better build, Sage FB isn't even listed on metabattle yet.

    Played well, Sage/Symbol can get plat 3/legend sure, but played poorly its a silver tier build in the hands of someone that don't know the class, when to pop what tomes etc.

    Condi thief played well or poorly can still get someone with 1 day of experience on thief gold 3/plat 1.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    They ignored a lot of builds. Honestly they should have fixed skill bugs and unintended skill behavior's than when the big game wide balance pass is decided on implement them all at once.these new devs are making the same mistakes the old devs made of nerfing a few while leaving many un changed due to not having made a decision on what or how to change them leaving these nerfed builds to fend against unchanged ones making the balance pass pointless

    Learning

  • @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    They ignored a lot of builds. Honestly they should have fixed skill bugs and unintended skill behavior's than when the big game wide balance pass is decided on implement them all at once.these new devs are making the same mistakes the old devs made of nerfing a few while leaving many un changed due to not having made a decision on what or how to change them leaving these nerfed builds to fend against unchanged ones making the balance pass pointless

    Learning

    I really like the aura of "slightly-unhinged news website comment poster" that you bring to these forums. It's very authentic.
    Never change, Burnfall.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    They ignored a lot of builds. Honestly they should have fixed skill bugs and unintended skill behavior's than when the big game wide balance pass is decided on implement them all at once.these new devs are making the same mistakes the old devs made of nerfing a few while leaving many un changed due to not having made a decision on what or how to change them leaving these nerfed builds to fend against unchanged ones making the balance pass pointless

    Learning

    I really like the aura of "slightly-unhinged news website comment poster" that you bring to these forums. It's very authentic.
    Never change, Burnfall.

    Thank You! Azure I won't change :)

  • Oh, I was waiting for this. I could see this coming ever since the first nerf to core guard.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Bear.9568 said:
    LOGICAL

    Anet still use forum feedback as base for their balance decisions and they tend to nerf builds the average Joe complain about on the forum and leave other unseen specs out of the equation

    Eh that's only half of it.

    A lot of nerfing & buffing that they do just quite seriously "comes out of left field" for absolutely no reason at all. As if they were throwing darts at a wall or something.

    I thought throwing darts on a wall was Anet balance methodology. And, when in doubt, nerf druid ;)

    @mortrialus.3062 well... with last balance patch, where Anet attempted to nerf support FB, they nerfed only Sage FB sustain slightly. They removed the personal cast aegis and kept the AOE aegis. Even through the feedback was to do the opposite... This will probably need 4-6 more month to re-open, considering how slow Anet is. And no grantee of any real fixes. It probably going to be another random and impact-less nerf or a nuke form orbit rendering it unplayable (which would be the death of last viability of guardian in sPvP).

    Even though I am guardian main, and plays mostly Sage FB nowadays, I am lukewarm about it. It can be extremely oppressive against some builds. But, it is slooooooooow. Really slow. And it suffers significantly against spike power damage from multiple enemies. If core or DH are viable, I would not play Sage FB at all.

  • @otto.5684 DH is viable, you just need to learn how to play it

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Tharan.9085 said:
    @otto.5684 DH is viable, you just need to learn how to play it

    Lol?! What do you think this is, G1?! I already know how to play DH and played it for years. I can probably take DH to P2 (or any guardian build really). This does not kitten mean anything. Unless it has solid presentation in above 1,600 and AT, it is not a competitive build.

    Feel free to go to guardian forums. There are tons of threads about its issues and suggestions to fix them.

  • The problem with DH is the spec is too...fair.

    There's no BS mechanics or OP traits that are instant i-win buttons unless your opponent just decides to play PvE mob simulator and send in your traps.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
    The problem with DH is the spec is too...fair.

    There's no BS mechanics or OP traits that are instant i-win buttons unless your opponent just decides to play PvE mob simulator and send in your traps.

    Umm u ever been pulled into a double trap(blades and ring) followed by a symbol at ur feet and a spin to win? Basically downs most noobs in seconds or precast focus, JI into trap and spin outa nowhere etc lol dh has lots of tricks up its sleeve with high sustain and bursts and alot of them when including ji could be frustrating for the opponent lol.
    Just wish lb would get bit more love, was so excited for it and it's just a ok weapon :(

  • lol at DH "high sustain", it has F3 for 3 seconds of block, F2 to leap and heal and that's it. If you're dying to a meme 5 trap build, that's a you problem.

    Yes it can do burst with traps, but that means you have nothing to sustain with, and if you use your elite slot for RF then you don't have the elite trap to burst, aka the spec is entirely too fair. DH is the epitome of blowing all cooldowns in 5 secs, after which its a free kill.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
    lol at DH "high sustain", it has F3 for 3 seconds of block, F2 to leap and heal and that's it. If you're dying to a meme 5 trap build, that's a you problem.

    Yes it can do burst with traps, but that means you have nothing to sustain with, and if you use your elite slot for RF then you don't have the elite trap to burst, aka the spec is entirely too fair. DH is the epitome of blowing all cooldowns in 5 secs, after which its a free kill.

    Dh doesnt have the crazy sustain guard of fb has that's for sure but it definitely has tricks and high bursts if ur implying it doesn't that's ur ltp issue and I wasnt dying to the trap meme builds I was running them killing people pretty effectively along with the precast ji precast bursts. And yeah I'd consider their sustain pretty good as well if not a zerg build. I dont think dh was meant to be a sustain spec but a dps spec so..

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm always confused what people think balanced is.
    Imo, symbol guard is probably the most balanced class in pvp right now. It has obvious strengths and weaknesses that are easy to understand but has obvious counters.

    -Low max hp. Requires vitality to even be competitive.
    -no access to swiftness or movement trait. Either you are super slow or you take lynx rune.
    -don't provide a lot of condis unless hybrid (dropping power damage by a lot). even then, only burning, blind, and imob.
    -damage spike is rather low.
    -rather choreographed. most of the attacks have distinct animations that can be identified.
    -no stealth, only invuln requires channeling
    -almost no access to stab (virtues f3 is really the only access and that requires a grandmaster trait)
    -almost no cc
    -almost no team support

    In exchange you get:
    -best condi cleanse build in the game.
    -tons of meditation self heal
    -great area denial
    -very high damage over time
    -low cd teleport to target

    I'd rather face a whole field of guards than a meta of holo cc spam or bunches of condi thieves and mesmers.

  • almost no cc?

    what?

    best condi cleanse build in the game? double what?

    meditations self heal?

    ok now I know you have absolutely never played the build.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Zephoid.4263 said:
    I'm always confused what people think balanced is.
    Imo, symbol guard is probably the most balanced class in pvp right now. It has obvious strengths and weaknesses that are easy to understand but has obvious counters.

    -Low max hp. Requires vitality to even be competitive.
    -no access to swiftness or movement trait. Either you are super slow or you take lynx rune.
    -don't provide a lot of condis unless hybrid (dropping power damage by a lot). even then, only burning, blind, and imob.
    -damage spike is rather low.
    -rather choreographed. most of the attacks have distinct animations that can be identified.
    -no stealth, only invuln requires channeling
    -almost no access to stab (virtues f3 is really the only access and that requires a grandmaster trait)
    -almost no cc
    -almost no team support

    In exchange you get:
    -best condi cleanse build in the game.
    -tons of meditation self heal
    -great area denial
    -very high damage over time
    -low cd teleport to target

    I'd rather face a whole field of guards than a meta of holo cc spam or bunches of condi thieves and mesmers.

    Core guard is pretty balanced and I don't think many would refute that but its when guard players start talking about the class as if its under performing or weak that people start raising their eyebrows lol for me personally it's when a guard player starts calling another class OP due to its sustain or bursts when the guard can infact match it in more cases then not which makes me start questioning the reasoning. Players of all classes do this and do it often.
    I think when people say guard is broken they are implying fb not core and certainly not dh

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
    almost no cc?

    what?

    best condi cleanse build in the game? double what?

    meditations self heal?

    ok now I know you have absolutely never played the build.

    If you read rather than inferring, i was talking about guard, which is the better dps class by far. However, the fb still has many of the same talking points.

    You have shield 5 and f1 3. I guess you can play axe for more cc but i find scepter and sword the better combination of primaries. Almost every class in this game has 2 stun breaks or stab, meaning your cc isn't enough to be effective.
    Who has better condi cleanse? Your F2 is straight the best condi cleanse ability in the game by an absurd margin. Depending on your utilities, you can also slot contemplation of purity vs any condi heavy team.
    fb exchange medi self heal for team support. I played mender fb for 4 seasons and got sick of being unable to carry teams in plat despite infinite heals and condi cleanses. You have less durability than bunker weaver or scrapper at the benefit of team support. Your damage is nothing to write home about and most of the fights you win are to them standing in your symbols as you f2. If they just... you know... walk out of your symbols you really have nothing. Once your F2 is done you don't have much sustain.
    I'm pretty sure if you had stats on it, menders fb is solidly average in win rate, especially after scourge got massacred.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
    The problem with DH is the spec is too...fair.

    There's no BS mechanics or OP traits that are instant i-win buttons unless your opponent just decides to play PvE mob simulator and send in your traps.

    Umm u ever been pulled into a double trap(blades and ring) followed by a symbol at ur feet and a spin to win? Basically downs most noobs in seconds or precast focus, JI into trap and spin outa nowhere etc lol dh has lots of tricks up its sleeve with high sustain and bursts and alot of them when including ji could be frustrating for the opponent lol.
    Just wish lb would get bit more love, was so excited for it and it's just a ok weapon :(

    This is so easy to avoid. And Many classes can outright tank it. And running dragon maw leaves you extremely vulnerable.

    DH viability is low. DH viability running dragon max is even lower.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
    The problem with DH is the spec is too...fair.

    There's no BS mechanics or OP traits that are instant i-win buttons unless your opponent just decides to play PvE mob simulator and send in your traps.

    Umm u ever been pulled into a double trap(blades and ring) followed by a symbol at ur feet and a spin to win? Basically downs most noobs in seconds or precast focus, JI into trap and spin outa nowhere etc lol dh has lots of tricks up its sleeve with high sustain and bursts and alot of them when including ji could be frustrating for the opponent lol.
    Just wish lb would get bit more love, was so excited for it and it's just a ok weapon :(

    This is so easy to avoid. And Many classes can outright tank it. And running dragon maw leaves you extremely vulnerable.

    DH viability is low. DH viability running dragon max is even lower.

    Ur right it is avoidable as are 90% of the skills in this game no? Um unless ur invulnerable what class tanks blades, symbol and spin to win often times with focus beam and burning on top of the spin to win? If u mean use defenses to avoid being killed by burst than of course but that's ok no? But no class I know would be standing there after just eating the guards burst without counter measures lol
    And yeah dh does need love but not sure its dps that is its issue atleast as far as bursts or ways to apply bursts go. Lb needs more somthing that's for sure. Dh is one of the coolest concepts in the game imo and I hope it gets placed into more of a viable spot in the future whether by getting changed or by the surrounding classes getting toned down which could happen.

  • @Zephoid.4263 said:

    @Darknicrofia.2604 said:
    almost no cc?

    what?

    best condi cleanse build in the game? double what?

    meditations self heal?

    ok now I know you have absolutely never played the build.

    If you read rather than inferring, i was talking about guard, which is the better dps class by far. However, the fb still has many of the same talking points.

    You have shield 5 and f1 3. I guess you can play axe for more cc but i find scepter and sword the better combination of primaries. Almost every class in this game has 2 stun breaks or stab, meaning your cc isn't enough to be effective.
    Who has better condi cleanse? Your F2 is straight the best condi cleanse ability in the game by an absurd margin. Depending on your utilities, you can also slot contemplation of purity vs any condi heavy team.
    fb exchange medi self heal for team support. I played mender fb for 4 seasons and got sick of being unable to carry teams in plat despite infinite heals and condi cleanses. You have less durability than bunker weaver or scrapper at the benefit of team support. Your damage is nothing to write home about and most of the fights you win are to them standing in your symbols as you f2. If they just... you know... walk out of your symbols you really have nothing. Once your F2 is done you don't have much sustain.
    I'm pretty sure if you had stats on it, menders fb is solidly average in win rate, especially after scourge got massacred.

    Are you talking about bunker FB or symbol FB? or core guard? or meditrapper? don't be all over the place when you're talking about a build's strength/weakness.

    your post started off talking about symbol FB then went on a tangent with traits from bunker FB and even meditrapper, which is it?

  • Symbol fb, and specifically weakness mantra should not exist. At least not in the current state.
    But this is what you people get for complaining about core guard and DH to the point of compete unviability. I could foresee this coming from miles away, and while I would much rather still queue on core hammer guard, being able to roll my face over the keyboard and 1v3 you people is satisfying enough for me as of right now.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    DH is doing pretty good in the current meta, it doesnt have any real counter builds besides prot holo and symbol fb but infact counters many builds.

    Edit: and even those counter builds take a while to kill DH

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