Why does Anet support match manipulation? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why does Anet support match manipulation?

Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

Queue as necro and switch to Holosmith before match starts. Why is this type of match manipulation possible?

Comments

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ya.....gets old seeing this.

    I que as a necro to play as a necro but theirs always 1 or 2 of them swapping around to "farm" me in game.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Because it’s not match manipulation

    How is it not? They queue as one class to force matchmaker to stack it against them, then they swap to its counter at the last second. How is this intended and good competitive behavior?

    Matchmaking doesn’t factor in class or team comp as far as I’m aware.

    Last night, for whatever reason I was put against Naru and Shorts and what seemed like two of their friends. EVERYONE on their team swapped toons, some multiple times. Shorts and another person literally swapped 2 seconds before the matched started. The match ended up being 3 condi mirage, 2 weavers.

    It’s not manipulation to swap classes before the match. Let’s say you queued as thief and for some reason everyone else in your team was also a thief. Your team swaps to create a more balanced team comp. It’s also skillful play to swap your class to help balance your team or to counter an enemy’s comp. The enemy is free to do the same.

    I can't fathom why Anet puts in duo queue to limit team play but condones this kind of behavior. The players were clearly friends and coordinating, possibly even queue syncing. What's the point of removing team queue if you allow players to do this?

    Team queue is much different as a coordinated team more often is superior to an uncoordinated team. Those that team up tend to be fairly coordinated.

    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    Not sure what this has to do with matchmaking or class swapping prior to a match.

    Edit: I’ll also add that I vaguely remember a poll that Anet did where the GW2 community voted for this to remain. So clearly this option is intended and not match manipulation.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    It’s not manipulation to swap classes before the match. Let’s say you queued as thief and for some reason everyone else in your team was also a thief. Your team swaps to create a more balanced team comp. It’s also skillful play to swap your class to help balance your team or to counter an enemy’s comp. The enemy is free to do the same.

    That is kind of the definition of manipulation. Its a problem when people abuse class swapping to skew the team balance. Its an even bigger problem when people who duo que do this. Its a problem when people swap seconds before the match starts so your opponents cant counter swap in time. The argument that "you can swap too" doesnt justify anything.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    It’s not manipulation to swap classes before the match. Let’s say you queued as thief and for some reason everyone else in your team was also a thief. Your team swaps to create a more balanced team comp. It’s also skillful play to swap your class to help balance your team or to counter an enemy’s comp. The enemy is free to do the same.

    That is kind of the definition of manipulation. Its a problem when people abuse class swapping to skew the team balance. Its an even bigger problem when people who duo que do this. Its a problem when people swap seconds before the match starts so your opponents cant counter swap in time. The argument that "you can swap too" doesnt justify anything.

    It’s not though as far as Anet is concerned as well as all of the players who voted for it. You’re penalized if you swap and are not back when the match begins.

  • shion.2084shion.2084 Member ✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    I believe match making does in fact consider and somewhat try to mirror class composition. I recall reading that.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Because it’s not match manipulation

    How is it not? They queue as one class to force matchmaker to stack it against them, then they swap to its counter at the last second. How is this intended and good competitive behavior?

    Matchmaking doesn’t factor in class or team comp as far as I’m aware.

    It does, it tries to make mirror comps as much as it can. So duo queues will often do something like queue on necro > swap to holo last second or any other variation of counter-classes.

    Last night, for whatever reason I was put against Naru and Shorts and what seemed like two of their friends. EVERYONE on their team swapped toons, some multiple times. Shorts and another person literally swapped 2 seconds before the matched started. The match ended up being 3 condi mirage, 2 weavers.

    It’s not manipulation to swap classes before the match. Let’s say you queued as thief and for some reason everyone else in your team was also a thief. Your team swaps to create a more balanced team comp. It’s also skillful play to swap your class to help balance your team or to counter an enemy’s comp. The enemy is free to do the same.

    They are swapping 1-2 seconds before the game actually starts - how do you react to that? If you try to swap to counter that, the game will lock you out at that point for trying to swap characters after a match has begun. It's gaming the system in every sense of the word. Why is this even considered okay? Also, they end up with ridiculous comps such as having 3 condi mirages.

    I can't fathom why Anet puts in duo queue to limit team play but condones this kind of behavior. The players were clearly friends and coordinating, possibly even queue syncing. What's the point of removing team queue if you allow players to do this?

    Team queue is much different as a coordinated team more often is superior to an uncoordinated team. Those that team up tend to be fairly coordinated.

    Right, so how is a duo and their friends syncing queues GOOD? They are gaming the system by using off-hours and low population to gain a team advantage. They are ending up with 4-5 coordinated friends on the same team in a game where team queues were removed...

    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    Not sure what this has to do with matchmaking or class swapping prior to a match.

    It has to do with people that are clearly gaming the system being rewarded for abusing things rather than getting punished. You are going to tell me a nobody that sat below the leaderboard for many seasons suddenly learns how to get 90% and 100% win ratios? Especially when matchmaking is so volatile? You think that's legitimate?

    Edit: I’ll also add that I vaguely remember a poll that Anet did where the GW2 community voted for this to remain. So clearly this option is intended and not match manipulation.

    The poll was supposed to gauge people's opinion and was told they would test run it. Then they implemented it and basically said, "This is permanent".

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Marxx.5021 said:
    Queue as necro and switch to Holosmith before match starts. Why is this type of match manipulation possible?

    This is an intended feature. Anet polled the playerbase whether they wanted class swapping or profession mmr. They close class swapping.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Because it’s not match manipulation

    How is it not? They queue as one class to force matchmaker to stack it against them, then they swap to its counter at the last second. How is this intended and good competitive behavior?

    Matchmaking doesn’t factor in class or team comp as far as I’m aware.

    It does, it tries to make mirror comps as much as it can. So duo queues will often do something like queue on necro > swap to holo last second or any other variation of counter-classes.

    It doesn’t try to mirror comps. It only tries to minimize duplicate classes based on whatever threshold Anet has assigned as the minimum.

    Last night, for whatever reason I was put against Naru and Shorts and what seemed like two of their friends. EVERYONE on their team swapped toons, some multiple times. Shorts and another person literally swapped 2 seconds before the matched started. The match ended up being 3 condi mirage, 2 weavers.

    It’s not manipulation to swap classes before the match. Let’s say you queued as thief and for some reason everyone else in your team was also a thief. Your team swaps to create a more balanced team comp. It’s also skillful play to swap your class to help balance your team or to counter an enemy’s comp. The enemy is free to do the same.

    They are swapping 1-2 seconds before the game actually starts - how do you react to that? If you try to swap to counter that, the game will lock you out at that point for trying to swap characters after a match has begun. It's gaming the system in every sense of the word. Why is this even considered okay? Also, they end up with ridiculous comps such as having 3 condi mirages.

    You can do the same. You can also make a request that players who are not in the match when it begins receive dishonor.

    I can't fathom why Anet puts in duo queue to limit team play but condones this kind of behavior. The players were clearly friends and coordinating, possibly even queue syncing. What's the point of removing team queue if you allow players to do this?

    Team queue is much different as a coordinated team more often is superior to an uncoordinated team. Those that team up tend to be fairly coordinated.

    Right, so how is a duo and their friends syncing queues GOOD? They are gaming the system by using off-hours and low population to gain a team advantage. They are ending up with 4-5 coordinated friends on the same team in a game where team queues were removed...

    This has nothing to do with the topic of swapping.

    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    Not sure what this has to do with matchmaking or class swapping prior to a match.

    It has to do with people that are clearly gaming the system being rewarded for abusing things rather than getting punished? You are going to tell me a nobody that sat below the leaderboard for many seasons suddenly learns how to get a 90% win ratio and 100% win ratios? Especially when matchmaking is so volatile? You think that's legitimate?

    This still has nothing to do with matchmaking and class swapping.

    Edit: I’ll also add that I vaguely remember a poll that Anet did where the GW2 community voted for this to remain. So clearly this option is intended and not match manipulation.

    The poll was supposed to gauge people's opinion and was told they would test run it. Then they implemented it and basically said, "This is permanent".

    It was never implemented because there was never an existing restriction on it. They did the poll, players didn’t want the restriction, so Anet did nothing.

    On another note, swapping has its benefits as it allows you to swap your comp instead of being stuck with one that is doomed from the start.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    Lmao this is just too good

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • its really lame but you can sort of guess what some people will switch to, especially if you've faced them before. shouldn't be too rare since low pop.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 I guess I'm not sure how you want me to counter-swap when a player swaps 1-2 seconds before the match itself begins? They are waiting until the last possible second so you cannot counter them. The game shouldn't be built in a way where people are playing a game within a game.

    Is EU like this?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    @Ayrilana.1396 I guess I'm not sure how you want me to counter-swap when a player swaps 1-2 seconds before the match itself begins? They are waiting until the last possible second so you cannot counter them. The game shouldn't be built in a way where people are playing a game within a game.

    Is EU like this?

    And that’s why you make a request to Anet that there probably should be dishonor for players not in the match when it begins. It’ll then be up to Abet to decide if this is an actual issue and whether it needs to be addressed with that suggested solution or something else.

    As it stands, this isn’t match manipulation otherwise players would be getting actioned on it and Anet wouldn’t have made it so that dishonor is only applied when you’re not in the match during the last 10 or how ever many seconds.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    @Ayrilana.1396 I guess I'm not sure how you want me to counter-swap when a player swaps 1-2 seconds before the match itself begins? They are waiting until the last possible second so you cannot counter them. The game shouldn't be built in a way where people are playing a game within a game.

    Is EU like this?

    And that’s why you make a request to Anet that there probably should be dishonor for players not in the match when it begins.

    It's already kind of there, if you try to swap to another class after the match starts it is supposed to put you back in the lobby and not let you reconnect to that match. Then it gives you dishonor. Problem is people are gaming the system by swapping at the very last second they can while avoiding this penalty. And there is no counterplay to that because by the time the game registers whatever they swap to, it's too late for you to swap to counter that.

    In a "competitive" mode people are avoiding the competition as much as they can. And there are many systems in place that allow them to do that. Doesn't that strike you as odd? But my question to you is, why do you think this is healthy for the state of the game?

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Marxx.5021 said:
    Queue as necro and switch to Holosmith before match starts. Why is this type of match manipulation possible?

    This is an intended feature. Anet polled the playerbase whether they wanted class swapping or profession mmr. They close class swapping.

    I wouldn't call it feature. It is abuse of ballancing and match making issues.

  • Jayden Reese.9542Jayden Reese.9542 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Every time I have 2 mez they have 2. Same with necro warrior. Teef/ranger seem interchangeable. I'm sure it's similar w the other classes so yeah if you q 2 necros and swap to their hard counter last second you can gain an advantage. You shouldn't be able to switch or see the other team before a match. I don't know why that's a thing. Could cut 1min waiting time off too from every match if you couldn't swap esp now w build templates which would still allow you to change stuff to compliment your team build.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭✭

    That’s what makes the game interesting.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    I did this a couple years ago when ele was trash tier. Duo queue both as ele to make sure we don't get any eles on our team, and then switch.

  • @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    As someone already said once, players shouldn't be able to see opponents' classes nor names before the final 10 secs countdown.

    That won't make any difference. The people who DuoQ as necro or any other class they have a favorable matchup against usually have no intention of playing that class they queued as. They just want to force one to other team which they can do easy since at least 2/5 of their players are queuing as one class and the matchmaker makes an attempt to mirror team comps.

    It really doesn't matter if they can't see what the enemy is playing as. The advantage is still with the DuoQ because they have a better chance of cherry picking what matchup they want either way, and even if it doesn't work; they had no intention of playing the classes they queued as to begin with.

    And yeah, OP. That's metagaming when you go outside the game to seek and advantage within, and it's the new and improved version of match manipulation ever since DuoQ came back. Why pay for wins when you can do everything in your "God of PvP" power to exploit the matchmaker for a better win/loss ratio earned with the least amount of effort? It's not technically manipulation just like torturing a claustrophobe by hovering your finger over them isn't technically touching them. It is equally if not more scummy though.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    This person is also a self admitted silver 3 player who ALSO admitted that he was solicited to pay for his r1 title, and then gets it, which you can see here in post #7 as well as #17 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Malediktus-9250/showposts

    Now how interesting is it that some one "improves" from silver 3 to RANK 1, on a specifically and well known camped and "gated" leaderboard. I wonder...

    But you are absolutely right, streamers never have that kind of win loss ratio, when people are at the top of the leaderboard, you almost NEVER see them playing, they sync q with their little buddies at lowest pop hours. If you think a 90%+ win rate is possible without underhanded tactics, record a season where you get rank 1 and show every one :)

    The funniest part is they actually think no one sees what they are doing, as if they are the only ones with alts LOL. Shared accounts and sync queuing are as real a problem as win trading and RMT were and are (I mean let's remember for a second all the perma dishonored and banned accounts for these actions), the ones most vocal about these things not existing are exactly the ones that should be looked at.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    This person is also a self admitted silver 3 player who ALSO admitted that he was solicited to pay for his r1 title, and then gets it, which you can see here in post #7 as well as #17 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Malediktus-9250/showposts

    Now how interesting is it that some one "improves" from silver 3 to RANK 1, on a specifically and well known camped and "gated" leaderboard. I wonder...

    But you are absolutely right, streamers never have that kind of win loss ratio, when people are at the top of the leaderboard, you almost NEVER see them playing, they sync q with their little buddies at lowest pop hours. If you think a 90%+ win rate is possible without underhanded tactics, record a season where you get rank 1 and show every one :)

    The funniest part is they actually think no one sees what they are doing, as if they are the only ones with alts LOL. Shared accounts and sync queuing are as real a problem as win trading and RMT were and are (I mean let's remember for a second all the perma dishonored and banned accounts for these actions), the ones most vocal about these things not existing are exactly the ones that should be looked at.

    @Cal Cohen.2358

    Can you look into this at all?

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    This person is also a self admitted silver 3 player who ALSO admitted that he was solicited to pay for his r1 title, and then gets it, which you can see here in post #7 as well as #17 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Malediktus-9250/showposts

    Now how interesting is it that some one "improves" from silver 3 to RANK 1, on a specifically and well known camped and "gated" leaderboard. I wonder...

    But you are absolutely right, streamers never have that kind of win loss ratio, when people are at the top of the leaderboard, you almost NEVER see them playing, they sync q with their little buddies at lowest pop hours. If you think a 90%+ win rate is possible without underhanded tactics, record a season where you get rank 1 and show every one :)

    The funniest part is they actually think no one sees what they are doing, as if they are the only ones with alts LOL. Shared accounts and sync queuing are as real a problem as win trading and RMT were and are (I mean let's remember for a second all the perma dishonored and banned accounts for these actions), the ones most vocal about these things not existing are exactly the ones that should be looked at.

    @Cal Cohen.2358

    Can you look into this at all?

    Pretty sure he was friends with them before he started working at anet. So don't hold your breath.

  • Roquen.5406Roquen.5406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @Roquen.5406 said:
    Also the dude at the top 28-0? He had a 90% win rate two seasons ago and then last season it was much worse and now this again? Does Anet even care??? Matchmaking is too volatile to have ratios like that. Even in my placements I had people just afk outright - you are telling me this person got through 28 matches without any of that BS? Not even top streamers have those ratios...

    Can you guys do something about this???

    This person is also a self admitted silver 3 player who ALSO admitted that he was solicited to pay for his r1 title, and then gets it, which you can see here in post #7 as well as #17 https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Malediktus-9250/showposts

    Now how interesting is it that some one "improves" from silver 3 to RANK 1, on a specifically and well known camped and "gated" leaderboard. I wonder...

    But you are absolutely right, streamers never have that kind of win loss ratio, when people are at the top of the leaderboard, you almost NEVER see them playing, they sync q with their little buddies at lowest pop hours. If you think a 90%+ win rate is possible without underhanded tactics, record a season where you get rank 1 and show every one :)

    The funniest part is they actually think no one sees what they are doing, as if they are the only ones with alts LOL. Shared accounts and sync queuing are as real a problem as win trading and RMT were and are (I mean let's remember for a second all the perma dishonored and banned accounts for these actions), the ones most vocal about these things not existing are exactly the ones that should be looked at.

    @Cal Cohen.2358

    Can you look into this at all?

    Pretty sure he was friends with them before he started working at anet. So don't hold your breath.

    Ah, that would explain why Anet not only turns a blind eye but seemingly sanctions this behavior too. Oh well, thanks for the heads up.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    We like it. And this is no any manipulation. I always swap. I open new map or do heart wiht thief. And waiting on pvp.
    2 min 5 min 10 min ! Get invite, accept, relog as my pvp FB.
    Or you suggest my wait on my FB in Lion Arch 10 minutes till invite ?? Or try do heart wiht unliked for pve character ?? No way.

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    We like it. And this is no any manipulation. I always swap. I open new map or do heart wiht thief. And waiting on pvp.
    2 min 5 min 10 min ! Get invite, accept, relog as my pvp FB.
    Or you suggest my wait on my FB in Lion Arch 10 minutes till invite ?? Or try do heart wiht unliked for pve character ?? No way.

    I suggest that in ranked you have to play the (class) spec you have queued with because match making mirrors team composition based on queued classes. I would prefer that class stacking is not possible. I hope class balance will improve so that it does not create a noticable advantage for choosing one class over another.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    @Marxx.5021 said:
    I suggest that in ranked you have to play the (class) spec you have queued with because match making mirrors team composition based on queued classes.

    for that we need another pvp select interface. So this is mean - not have so valued to do changes in this way. Currently no any class is overpowered. Skill versus.

    I would prefer that class stacking is not possible.

    Don't see nothing bad if we have 5 any same class in any party

    I hope class balance will improve so that it does not create a noticable advantage for choosing one class over another.

    not need improve I think, current balance from my vision is perfect. Any future improvements only minors change.

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Marxx.5021 said:
    Queue as necro and switch to Holosmith before match starts. Why is this type of match manipulation possible?

    This is an intended feature. Anet polled the playerbase whether they wanted class swapping or profession mmr. They close class swapping.

    Exactly this. ANET conducted a poll and more players wanted to keep class switching. So there you have it....its completely condoned and sanctioned by both the majority of the player base and ANET. How "YOU" use this "feature" is up to you.

  • This also boils down a balance issue. Class swapping should account for things like:

    • Allowing people to do other parts of the game while in Q
    • Swapping to a role that your team would need to help win

    The issue is that in addition to those two things (which are good features IMO), you also allow:

    • Forcing matchmaking to put other players of a certain class when queued on the other team
    • Swapping to an obvious hard counter (aka balance problem)

    The whole "queue as necro and swap to engi" is only really a problem due to the current balance state of both of those classes.

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