General Balance - PvE — Guild Wars 2 Forums

General Balance - PvE

Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 5, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

In light of the recent announcements and Cal's good threads on PvP and WvW balance, I wanted to take a minute to express a few thoughts/concerns on balance in the bigger picture -

Most people seem to be excited by the idea of doing more skill splitting between PvE & PvP, but I'm not sure I share this. It feels a bit like band-aid fixing things that are facets of larger systemic issues. I think it's important to keep a holistic perspective on combat balance across all three game modes and avoid letting them become too siloed. Many things get missed when there's a hyperfixation on balance in one mode or another. There are a few examples I can think of right off-hand:

Historically, balance changes have been more concerned with PvP (even though PvP balance isn't particularly good). This has a few effects, but one obvious one is the assumption of shorter engagement times, which diminishes the role of the #1 skill and enhances the role of cooldowns in an encounter. One of the big "misses" here is the relative balancing of auto-attacks, which carry a lot more weight in PvE than they do in PvP. Since the auto-attack on a weapon sets the baseline damage pressure of a weapon in a longer engagement, a weapon with an undertuned #1 skill will absolutely underperform in PvE while it doesn't necessarily in PvP. This is something that at times has gone years seemingly without being noticed or corrected (such as Thief's P/P or Ranger's Longbow) and in some cases is still a problem in the game (such as Elementalist staff). The issue is there doesn't seem to be any coherent design philosophy around how this is balanced and managed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be surprised.

Other examples are the efficacy of control effects & stealth which are also balanced around PvP and therefore the assumption of short engagements with quick deaths/quick resets. This leaves most control effects as well as Stealth feeling underpowered in PvE. Stealth should be a fun strategic utility in PvE when instead it's mostly just used to get big damage on an opening attack. Shouldn't there just be a general design rule that control effects and Stealth last x% longer in PvE than they do in PvP to accommodate the difference between mobs & players, and wouldn't that help reduce the need to try to balance individual skills between PvE and PvP without touching their damage components? After all, shouldn't mob statistics be modeled after player statistics so skills can work in the same way for both?

Secondly, a huge portion of the unhealthy power creep in the game revolves around two things - a.) the over-proliferation of boons, and b.) the mechanical changes made to conditions since launch. In my opinion, these are not PvP issues but are game-wide issues. Condition damage scaling is too high with durations that are too long, so there's a reliance on overpowered mechanics to combat it. For example, most condi-clearing skills and traits are overtuned as a way of dealing with high condi damage and Resistance negates all condi damage instead of doing something sensible like reducing it by 50%. In PvP, this forces players to build around being able to deal with incoming conditions. In PvE, it means that too much condi damage goes to waste, making it generally inferior to Power builds rather than simply a bit more specialized like it should be.

It really feels like most of need for skill splitting between PvE and PvP is to deal with issues that are more foundational and needing to be corrected either with mob mechanics/AI or with generalized differences such as the control one above.

Comments

  • split pvp and pve to allow specialisation of 2 streams of build to suit the target content. Do not split and you need to design a shape that somehow fits perfectly into a square and a circle. You cant ofc, so the answer is to have 2 shapes. thats ignoring the fact the this post doesn't seem to understand a fundamental difference between pve and pvp (opponent is a real person versus a scripted bit of code)

    from a software design perspective, there is a well known design principle: composition over inheritance. 1 aspect of this is recognising that trying to create some kind of perfect core design that can somehow be extended to suit all possible use cases is futile and leads you down a road where everyone gets tied to everything and nothing can change.

    Splitting pvp and pve is the correct approach.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    split pvp and pve to allow specialisation of 2 streams of build to suit the target content. Do not split and you need to design a shape that somehow fits perfectly into a square and a circle. You cant ofc, so the answer is to have 2 shapes. thats ignoring the fact the this post doesn't seem to understand a fundamental difference between pve and pvp (opponent is a real person versus a scripted bit of code)

    from a software design perspective, there is a well known design principle: composition over inheritance. 1 aspect of this is recognising that trying to create some kind of perfect core design that can somehow be extended to suit all possible use cases is futile and leads you down a road where everyone gets tied to everything and nothing can change.

    Splitting pvp and pve is the correct approach.

    I agree and because of this I believe Templates should also be split if we continue down this route

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    It should have been split right from release, as GW1 was it worked yes.... it was harder work dev wise but in the long run splitting the skills worked well.

    I agree with most everything else you said though, condi and boons have lost the plot character and enemy wise..

  • yes... what I've been thinking for some time, altho no way I could so it so eloquently. i'm of the opinion that every class should have 1 or 2 burst condi's, with 1 or 2 debilitating condi's for survival. cutting out the over abundance of cover condi's will allow cleanses to be nerfed, and people will feel less cheated when they die to a condi build. on to boons. both boons and condi's need caps imo. getting 30+ seconds of protection is the norm in wvw, while a tenth of that can save someones life in pvp. boons should matter, they shouldn't be spammed off of cd for optimal usage. condi caps are sort of a no brainer. getting hit with 20+ seconds of cripple or 30 stacks of burns is no fun. in fact its quite horrible. I don't know where to set said caps, but there has to be something lol. its just too ridiculous. lastly, and off topic, is power creep in terms of ez 25 might and damage modifiers. one shots are bad design for this game. everything should get looked at and brought back down to normal levels. getting 100-0'ed shouldn't be the norm. these things first then look at sustain and see where its too strong.
    anyway some pipe dreams right there.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    I'm the one who noticed. About a year ago I did a bunch of auto attack tests, and this was largely done to show the vast disparities between player performance and certain classes. However, very strangely, this information has been useful in a large amount circumstances. I think I reference it every month or so. It has remained my biggest criticism of the game's combat system: it is idiot prone and overly punishing for mistakes. The only reason why people don't know this by and large is because the overworld PVE environment is so easy as to mask how bad everyone is playing. There's no tutorial to remedy this, either. I wrote more about my complaints here. Also of trivial interest, I did a CCPS (crowd control per second) analysis of the different professions once, and found that they were wildly unbalanced.

    PVE balance has been a tricky subject to talk about, because it doesn't actually exist. There is balance in PVP and WvW because players are actually pitted against each other. There, the minuscule differences between cast times and range make up a big difference. But in PVE, the player is weighed against nothing. A class either succeeds, or it does not succeed. The community adherence to the meta is not done out of necessity, but convenience. Given that a player is competent with their class, all PVE content can be completed with all classes. So long as that fact does not change, all of the community enforcement of meta classes and builds is all arbitrary.

    When I say that it doesn't exist, this is in the mind of the developers themselves. For evidence, I'm going to cite the July 16, 2019 change to Holosmiths that locked out the toolbelt skills when exploding. These changes were implemented for thematic reasons. Anet didn't feel that exploding was punishing enough. This patch also introduced dynamic scaling, making all of the previous skills and traits much weaker. These changes crippled power holosmith so much that it became the worst spec in the game. It is only after two weeks of unending negative feedback that Holosmith received two paltry changes: Glass Cannon went from 5% to 7%, and Laser's Edge went from 15% to 25%, making ECSU the only PVE build. Every other class just received bugfixes during the July 30 patch, meaning that these buffs were specially added in to the bugfix patch to quell the complaining raiders PBM lies twitching on the floor and PVE performance everywhere but organized raids suffers. It is very clear that PVE performance didn't come up once during the discussion on Holosmith changes, because otherwise somebody would've noticed something.

    There is no set benchmark at which auto attacks are expected to perform at. There is no set level of expected PVE DPS for a class to meet. There is no requirement for unique, useful group utility for a class to have. There is no true hierarchy that PVE classes are supposed to be ranked within. There is no transparency for PVE decisions because there are no PVE decisions. Every balance patch has some PVE spec getting hit hard (Scourge, Chronomancer, Scrapper, Holosmith, Revenant, etc), because of PVP or WvW changes. Splits between game modes are done so the developers don't have to worry about upsetting PVE players, and not out of some preservation for the grand PVE design. Any complaints end up with raiders getting a bone thrown at them, wherein the class receives a minor buff that only works in a raid meta comp and nowhere else.

    The real thing you have to do is convince the devs that PVE balance matters, and it does so in more than just raids.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • The thing with pve is that you don't actually need to balance the classes, you just need to make them viable in battles with npc.and interesting to play. What skews things is dps watchers, and players who gravitate towards trinity fights and stack and burn rush through content. Bring that into the equation and you have an aspect that is allways going to be damaging to pvp, so you have to separate or somehow change this sub culture.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Other examples are the efficacy of control effects & stealth which are also balanced around PvP and therefore the assumption of short engagements with quick deaths/quick resets. This leaves most control effects as well as Stealth feeling underpowered in PvE. Stealth should be a fun strategic utility in PvE when instead it's mostly just used to get big damage on an opening attack. Shouldn't there just be a general design rule that control effects and Stealth last x% longer in PvE than they do in PvP to accommodate the difference between mobs & players, and wouldn't that help reduce the need to try to balance individual skills between PvE and PvP without touching their damage components? After all, shouldn't mob statistics be modeled after player statistics so skills can work in the same way for both?

    Not sure where this is coming from. Last I checked, a vast majority of skips, shortcuts, time saves, etc. are still being done with stealth in pretty much all content besides raids (and even here you can stealth Reapers in the Dhuum fight to affect enforcer movement). As such, the mechanic was, is and likely will remain a "fun strategic utility" already. Not sure where you want to go from easy group perma stealth.

    The rest of the thread, well the usual open world player discussion on balance. Suffice to say, as far as open world content, dungeons and normal fractals (up to T4), the game is fine.

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The thing with pve is that you don't actually need to balance the classes, you just need to make them viable in battles with npc.and interesting to play. What skews things is dps watchers, and players who gravitate towards trinity fights and stack and burn rush through content. Bring that into the equation and you have an aspect that is allways going to be damaging to pvp, so you have to separate or somehow change this sub culture.

    There is literally no content besides maybe raids where pve classes need to get balanced for due to general lack of difficulty. The last time balance was skewed, the challenging content of this game was hit hard with exclusion of classes and requirements. Thanks, but I'll pass on returning to that.

    If you aren't rolling over content in this game outside of CM fractals and raids, you need to improve your personal player skills first before arguing balance, because you are absolutely unqualified if challenged by this easy of content. Metabattle has a section for open world builds and general pve and Woodenpotatoes has a series in which he recommends and explains a good general pve build for each class. I'd recommend checking out both.

    As far as pvp/wvw and pve split. That was a long overdue and a good thing.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The last time balance was skewed, the challenging content of this game was hit hard with exclusion of classes and requriements. Thanks, but I'll pass on returning to that.

    You dont have to return to it. Its already the case.
    For months we are stuck with PChrono/Firebrand/Guardian as BiS pretty much everywhere because they provide good damage and quickness.

    Only Matthias, Cairn, Mursaat, SH, Largos and both Qadims dont favor any of these classes.
    Thats 7/19 Bosses.
    Yes, you might play a Firebrand for quickness coverage, but you dont stack them on these encounters.
    On Matthias and Mursaat you play Boonthief anyway, so you dont have to provide quickness.
    That leaves 5/19 Bosses.
    Thiefes can steal Ectos on the pylons for boons on the first qadim encounter. Once again, quickness covered.
    That leaves you with 4/19 bosses where you dont have to play a DPS class that provides quickness.
    On 3 of these you play Mirage since forever and on PQadim you play Renegade. Mainly because torment is absolutely broken on this boss. If it wasnt for that it would probably be firebrand.

    Balance is skewed and stale since months now.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    If you think further splits between PvE and PvP/WvW aren't needed, spend a bit of time in a guild arena with PvE balance. It shows you just how much of a mess the PvE balance is and that they don't really pay any attention to it when making changes.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Tempest, Water mage | Also Bappy Pawbeans, Soulbeast | ♀♥♀
    Sorry if I seem annoying or harsh, I'm just bad at communicating properly. ><
    /"Love me, hate me, but always love me" - Unknown/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The last time balance was skewed, the challenging content of this game was hit hard with exclusion of classes and requriements. Thanks, but I'll pass on returning to that.

    You dont have to return to it. Its already the case.
    For months we are stuck with PChrono/Firebrand/Guardian as BiS pretty much everywhere because they provide good damage and quickness.

    Only Matthias, Cairn, Mursaat, SH, Largos and both Qadims dont favor any of these classes.
    Thats 7/19 Bosses.
    Yes, you might play a Firebrand for quickness coverage, but you dont stack them on these encounters.
    On Matthias and Mursaat you play Boonthief anyway, so you dont have to provide quickness.
    That leaves 5/19 Bosses.
    Thiefes can steal Ectos on the pylons for boons on the first qadim encounter. Once again, quickness covered.
    That leaves you with 4/19 bosses where you dont have to play a DPS class that provides quickness.
    On 3 of these you play Mirage since forever and on PQadim you play Renegade. Mainly because torment is absolutely broken on this boss. If it wasnt for that it would probably be firebrand.

    Balance is skewed and stale since months now.

    You are comparing best in slot and perfect raid setups (which not all groups run, only a small fraction) with previous performance general raid meta with disparities of over 40% in performance on single classes (power elementalist meta) and required classes on each boss (chrono+druid). The current meta and possibilities are far wider and diverse compared to 3 years of HoT meta with multiple support setups and multiple viable damage dealers.

    Throwing balance out the window would in favor of general open world pve would result in pretty much the HoT meta, which was far more stale than any meta since.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are comparing best in slot and perfect raid setups (which not all groups run, only a small fraction)

    I mean, yeah? Why would you balance around people that dont care for BiS anyway? They will play whatever they like and thats completly fine.

    with previous performance general raid meta with disparities of over 40% in performance on single classes (power elementalist meta) and required classes on each boss >(chrono+druid). The current meta and possibilities are far wider and diverse compared to 3 years of HoT meta with multiple support setups and multiple viable damage >dealers.

    Throwing balance out the window would in favor of general open world pve would result in pretty much the HoT meta, which was far more stale than any meta since.

    I agree, stacking Elementalists was stale. However, i still liked it more. At least you needed dedicated support for quickness. Its more diverse than back then, but is it better?
    Most played classes are Firebrand/Guardian and Chrono/Mirage. 4 Specs, 2 classes. Not much better than ele.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are comparing best in slot and perfect raid setups (which not all groups run, only a small fraction)

    I mean, yeah? Why would you balance around people that dont care for BiS anyway? They will play whatever they like and thats completly fine.

    with previous performance general raid meta with disparities of over 40% in performance on single classes (power elementalist meta) and required classes on each boss >(chrono+druid). The current meta and possibilities are far wider and diverse compared to 3 years of HoT meta with multiple support setups and multiple viable damage >dealers.

    Throwing balance out the window would in favor of general open world pve would result in pretty much the HoT meta, which was far more stale than any meta since.

    I agree, stacking Elementalists was stale. However, i still liked it more. At least you needed dedicated support for quickness. Its more diverse than back then, but is it better?
    Most played classes are Firebrand/Guardian and Chrono/Mirage. 4 Specs, 2 classes. Not much better than ele.

    Well then we are on the same page, but my response was towards the argument:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The thing with pve is that you don't actually need to balance the classes, you just need to make them viable in battles with npc.and interesting to play.

    Which given the open world tone of this thread would result in balance around the low skill end. That's what I disagreed with.

    As far as power ele meta and diversity: more diversity is better since it allows more classes access to the content.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Well then we are on the same page, but my response was towards the argument:

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:
    The thing with pve is that you don't actually need to balance the classes, you just need to make them viable in battles with npc.and interesting to play.

    Which given the open world tone of this thread would result in balance around the low skill end. That's what I disagreed with.

    Oh, my bad. I probably flew over that while reading the thread and didnt catch it. Sorry about that.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    About mob AI: Alot of games solve the "players hate good AIs" problem by giving mobs varying intelligence, which allows players to still chew through swarming mobs like wolves while having a tough time with say, a Human enemy. In a way GW2 tries to do this with Veterans/Champions/etc. but it falls short because they don't actually have a better AI they just have more health and skills to use.

    Because of this "encounters" in GW2 don't really exist, even the most elite bosses are just glorified wolves.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Tempest, Water mage | Also Bappy Pawbeans, Soulbeast | ♀♥♀
    Sorry if I seem annoying or harsh, I'm just bad at communicating properly. ><
    /"Love me, hate me, but always love me" - Unknown/

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lots of good posts here, good read.

    Just poking in to say that at this point of time in the games life, I think skill-splits are going to have to be the solution. I don't think it is optimal, and would much prefer to see the game go back to pre-hot where PvP determined the balance. But honestly I agree with everyone here that said that the monster AI's feels like fighting against a sack of potatoes.

    In short, the entire combat system feels like an utter waste for the PVE part of the game. I get the feeling that the majority of the players on the PVE side would probably cheer if they removed the combat system and replaced it with a standard rpg system closer to wow/ff14 instead. (And I'd quit on the day).

    I think Starlinvf called it, at this point a gw3 designed around the combat system and with proper ai.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    holistic perspective...siloed.

    Business terminology that's overly used.

    Skill splitting works due to the different gear sets and provide an easier way of balancing.

  • pvp and pve are different. That's never going to change. Therefore we want a skill to be designed such that it is perfect for both, and that means splitting. If anet could automagicallty create this split overnight with day 1 being that the skills we're simply split and cloned ready for future divergence we would be applauding anet. The issue therefore isn't the split concept, it's the resource cost in doing it.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

  • @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

  • people advising the modes be separated

    This is the correct solution.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

  • Sarrs.4831Sarrs.4831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Most people seem to be excited by the idea of doing more skill splitting between PvE & PvP, but I'm not sure I share this. It feels a bit like band-aid fixing things that are facets of larger systemic issues. I think it's important to keep a holistic perspective on combat balance across all three game modes and avoid letting them become too siloed. Many things get missed when there's a hyperfixation on balance in one mode or another. There are a few examples I can think of right off-hand:

    I used to think that little or no skill-splitting was a good strategy. I'm not confident it's the best approach going forward, especially if we want to have a reasonably balanced WvW vs PvE content.

    Historically, balance changes have been more concerned with PvP (even though PvP balance isn't particularly good). This has a few effects, but one obvious one is the assumption of shorter engagement times, which diminishes the role of the #1 skill and enhances the role of cooldowns in an encounter. One of the big "misses" here is the relative balancing of auto-attacks, which carry a lot more weight in PvE than they do in PvP. Since the auto-attack on a weapon sets the baseline damage pressure of a weapon in a longer engagement, a weapon with an undertuned #1 skill will absolutely underperform in PvE while it doesn't necessarily in PvP. This is something that at times has gone years seemingly without being noticed or corrected (such as Thief's P/P or Ranger's Longbow) and in some cases is still a problem in the game (such as Elementalist staff). The issue is there doesn't seem to be any coherent design philosophy around how this is balanced and managed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be surprised.

    Is auto-attack balancing a fair point of analysis, though? Should we be expecting ANet to perfectly balance every single weapon to be equally viable with others, when making sure there's at least one balanced weapon per class or espec would already provide between 18 and 27 viable playstyles for each class? Even that number, just looking at it, seems crazy to try to keep balanced.

    It's interesting as well that you bring up specific weapons with issues. PP is an open-world, self-might-stacking weapon-set which shouldn't necessarily be viable for endgame content for the fact. Longbow has a specific mechanic that does let it produce high damage under the right conditions, but PvE content's stacking strategy rarely provides for that condition (and also worth considering that Soulbeast overpopulates their rotation with the right Beastmode). If these were weapons that were supposed to do specific jobs, like a Deadeye's Rifle, and they just plain didn't fill that role, that'd be one thing - but these are weapons on classes which have classically had other, very good options.

    Other examples are the efficacy of control effects & stealth which are also balanced around PvP and therefore the assumption of short engagements with quick deaths/quick resets. This leaves most control effects as well as Stealth feeling underpowered in PvE. Stealth should be a fun strategic utility in PvE when instead it's mostly just used to get big damage on an opening attack. Shouldn't there just be a general design rule that control effects and Stealth last x% longer in PvE than they do in PvP to accommodate the difference between mobs & players, and wouldn't that help reduce the need to try to balance individual skills between PvE and PvP without touching their damage components? After all, shouldn't mob statistics be modeled after player statistics so skills can work in the same way for both?

    Stealth already has this split, I think; to the best of my knowledge, stealth-granting effects will always grant one second less in PvP/WvW than in PvE. Even then, knowing how to generate tall stacks of stealth and use those stacks to skip mobs is a treasured skill in PvE and fundamental to a lot of skipping and boss soloing.

    I'm not sure I agree with the thesis in general when control on mobs does precious little. There are so few mobs that actually play evasively to a degree that you'd want to control them, and usually this is more annoying than something you think about too heavily. Does it matter whether Executioner's Scythe lasts 2 seconds or 4 seconds when the Soul Spiral immediately afterwards will kill any normal or 50% any veteran mob anyway?

    Secondly, a huge portion of the unhealthy power creep in the game revolves around two things - a.) the over-proliferation of boons, and b.) the mechanical changes made to conditions since launch. In my opinion, these are not PvP issues but are game-wide issues. Condition damage scaling is too high with durations that are too long, so there's a reliance on overpowered mechanics to combat it. For example, most condi-clearing skills and traits are overtuned as a way of dealing with high condi damage and Resistance negates all condi damage instead of doing something sensible like reducing it by 50%. In PvP, this forces players to build around being able to deal with incoming conditions. In PvE, it means that too much condi damage goes to waste, making it generally inferior to Power builds rather than simply a bit more specialized like it should be.

    Boon proliferation being an issue in PvE is an interesting idea that I am not sure about.
    Condition damage and durations being high is a feature, not a bug. Epidemic more or less requires long condition durations for any PvE content to be challenging.

    It really feels like most of need for skill splitting between PvE and PvP is to deal with issues that are more foundational and needing to be corrected either with mob mechanics/AI or with generalized differences such as the control one above.

    But do people want challenging open-world monsters with complex AI? Even if you implement that complex AI, won't the differences between the power levels of those monsters and the players create a different balancing problem and just put you back at square one?

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

    Which is a difference in player approach. Some players like to get challenged and improve, others like yourself do not.

    Given the general ability to make unkillable cheese builds for open world content and pairing that with the INSANE room to improve towards becoming an even remotely adept player, the checkbox for easy content is checked off by a mile.

    While I personally do not mind having easy open world content and keeping the more challenging content to voluntary instanced areas (fractals/raids for example). I absolutely object to take the trash skill level required for open world content as benchmark for balance of classes. There is no need to balance around a skillcap which makes 0 use of the games combat design and mechanics.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Which is a difference in player approach. Some players like to get challenged and improve, others like yourself do not.

    Judging, much? One can still be challenged and improve without having to wade through HoT. Everyone's ability to play the game is varied, so I find it a bit harsh to assume that there are players who don't like to improve based on content that you believe would accomplish that.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

    And as I have said, I've seen and talked to people that find HoT difficult, but they are greatly outnumbered by the people I see and talk to that have been through that and progressed and learned how to deal with it. Overall I find more people that dislike the map design being in 3d and having to navigate in multiple layers, and that the mini map is usually no help, than people complaining about the actual difficulty or challenge of HoT. And even those are not the majority.

    Besides no player observation is ever going to give an accurate sample or vision, only ANet sits with the numbers to be able to really comment how many seemingly enjoy or hate HoT etc.

    Now if you don't like it, so be it, that is subjective and up to each individual person. You can do as you like in the game etc. But there are plenty of other players in this game that does not want HoT change into Tyria level, because that would flat out bore them to death.

    Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, which is not about PVE balance, but about the Skill-Splits from PvE into PvP that ANet has been talking about. It is not going to change any PvE at all, it's about how splitting the skills too much from PvE to PvP will make classes too different between the modes.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Which is a difference in player approach. Some players like to get challenged and improve, others like yourself do not.

    Judging, much? One can still be challenged and improve without having to wade through HoT. Everyone's ability to play the game is varied, so I find it a bit harsh to assume that there are players who don't like to improve based on content that you believe would accomplish that.

    Judging? I was directly refering to the posters past responses and dislike of challenging content by their own admission.

    I then added the component of the ease of open world not requiring players to improve, which I thought need not be explained, given recent announcements in gap in player performance and efforts to add content which works as training ground for weaker players (strike missions).

    If it's harsh to tell players that they are weak at the game, sure then I was harsh. There is enough resources which can help players become more proficient.

    EDIT: also please realize that I was not disagreeing with either approach, I think it's perfectly fine that people only enjoy the open world content. What I disagree with is that this content should be the basis for game balance

  • Hard to do PvE with PvP build. Mobs cheat with millions of HPs, unique skills, that thing thats called break-bar and so on.

    Only 2 solutions:

    • split
    • or no one cheats
  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

    And as I have said, I've seen and talked to people that find HoT difficult, but they are greatly outnumbered by the people I see and talk to that have been through that and progressed and learned how to deal with it. Overall I find more people that dislike the map design being in 3d and having to navigate in multiple layers, and that the mini map is usually no help, than people complaining about the actual difficulty or challenge of HoT. And even those are not the majority.

    Besides no player observation is ever going to give an accurate sample or vision, only ANet sits with the numbers to be able to really comment how many seemingly enjoy or hate HoT etc.

    Now if you don't like it, so be it, that is subjective and up to each individual person. You can do as you like in the game etc. But there are plenty of other players in this game that does not want HoT change into Tyria level, because that would flat out bore them to death.

    Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, which is not about PVE balance, but about the Skill-Splits from PvE into PvP that ANet has been talking about. It is not going to change any PvE at all, it's about how splitting the skills too much from PvE to PvP will make classes too different between the modes.

    Thats where you may be a bit wrong. WvW chrono was disintegrated due to pve changes, pve scourge is worse off after recent wvw nerfs. But one can only hope they will fix stuff in the future.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What we need to promote balance:
    Periods of condition/stun immunity or decreasing impact.

    Cleansing a condition should grant immunity to it (3 sec PvE, 1 sec PvP), and the same goes for stun breaks. Stability doesn't do squat and is entirely too rare on some professions, so its current implementation is unhelpful anyway. Just slowing down the constant condi spam would do a ton for the game.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Rauderi.8706 said:
    What we need to promote balance:
    Periods of condition/stun immunity or decreasing impact.

    Cleansing a condition should grant immunity to it (3 sec PvE, 1 sec PvP), and the same goes for stun breaks. Stability doesn't do squat and is entirely too rare on some professions, so its current implementation is unhelpful anyway. Just slowing down the constant condi spam would do a ton for the game.

    So mitigating power damage make you immune for any follow up for 3 sec aswell?
    Would hate to fight a warrior with endure pain and lesser trait one + shield.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Rauderi.8706 said:
    What we need to promote balance:
    Periods of condition/stun immunity or decreasing impact.

    Cleansing a condition should grant immunity to it (3 sec PvE, 1 sec PvP), and the same goes for stun breaks. Stability doesn't do squat and is entirely too rare on some professions, so its current implementation is unhelpful anyway. Just slowing down the constant condi spam would do a ton for the game.

    So mitigating power damage make you immune for any follow up for 3 sec aswell?
    Would hate to fight a warrior with endure pain and lesser trait one + shield.

    Considering one of the big PvP problems is going from 100% to 0% out of stealth, sure!
    And let's make sure Retaliation works on block/evade, too.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

    And as I have said, I've seen and talked to people that find HoT difficult, but they are greatly outnumbered by the people I see and talk to that have been through that and progressed and learned how to deal with it. Overall I find more people that dislike the map design being in 3d and having to navigate in multiple layers, and that the mini map is usually no help, than people complaining about the actual difficulty or challenge of HoT. And even those are not the majority.

    Besides no player observation is ever going to give an accurate sample or vision, only ANet sits with the numbers to be able to really comment how many seemingly enjoy or hate HoT etc.

    Now if you don't like it, so be it, that is subjective and up to each individual person. You can do as you like in the game etc. But there are plenty of other players in this game that does not want HoT change into Tyria level, because that would flat out bore them to death.

    Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, which is not about PVE balance, but about the Skill-Splits from PvE into PvP that ANet has been talking about. It is not going to change any PvE at all, it's about how splitting the skills too much from PvE to PvP will make classes too different between the modes.

    Learning to deal with things is not enjoying things.. There is a big difference there. It has everything to do with it. The game mechanics of hot, pof and living stories are a huge factor in pve balancing.. the whole areas are what effect classes and balance most of all.

    Nerf builds for pvp and WvW and you make PvE content unpassable or extremely tedious to do which in effect lowers the populations because customers get tired and move on.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    After all, shouldn't mob statistics be modeled after player statistics so skills can work in the same way for both?

    That would make PVE way too easy. Remember that this is an open world game where 100 players hit one poor mob, if mobs have similar stats to players they'd melt in seconds, regardless if they had good AI or player-like skills. Also, to use WVW as an example, once a blob gets the upper hand, and players in the other one start dropping, it's game over and you need to retreat. This means PVE engagements will end in the first few minutes and then you'd semi-afk until the fight is over. Clever/experienced commanders can turn a fight around but mob blobs can't retreat and they can't use choke points and/or tactics.

    Also, imagine how terrible mob tagging and rewards would be if mobs were using block/evade/invulnerability skills like players, they have large health pools with little defenses so players can tag them for experience and rewards. Mobs have different mechanics for a reason, they can't really use player skills and builds.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

    And as I have said, I've seen and talked to people that find HoT difficult, but they are greatly outnumbered by the people I see and talk to that have been through that and progressed and learned how to deal with it. Overall I find more people that dislike the map design being in 3d and having to navigate in multiple layers, and that the mini map is usually no help, than people complaining about the actual difficulty or challenge of HoT. And even those are not the majority.

    Besides no player observation is ever going to give an accurate sample or vision, only ANet sits with the numbers to be able to really comment how many seemingly enjoy or hate HoT etc.

    Now if you don't like it, so be it, that is subjective and up to each individual person. You can do as you like in the game etc. But there are plenty of other players in this game that does not want HoT change into Tyria level, because that would flat out bore them to death.

    Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, which is not about PVE balance, but about the Skill-Splits from PvE into PvP that ANet has been talking about. It is not going to change any PvE at all, it's about how splitting the skills too much from PvE to PvP will make classes too different between the modes.

    Learning to deal with things is not enjoying things.. There is a big difference there. It has everything to do with it. The game mechanics of hot, pof and living stories are a huge factor in pve balancing.. the whole areas are what effect classes and balance most of all.

    Nerf builds for pvp and WvW and you make PvE content unpassable or extremely tedious to do which in effect lowers the populations because customers get tired and move on.

    Learning to deal with things is a large part of what games has been about, and can be said to be one of the things people enjoy in games since the very beginning, everything from FPS, to fighting games, to puzzles, to RPG's of all types. All of them are about "learning to deal with things" as you progress through the game and as such improve yourself, by whatever metric the game uses to evaulate success. In a FPS that would often be reaction time and aiming, in a Fighting game that would be reaction time combos and reading the opponent, in an oldschool RPG it would be about learning what weakness each enemy had and attack with the right attack or just crunching the numbers to increase your odds. GW2 has a combat system that is probably closest to a fighting game in that regard.

    And to be real blunt, considering how skill based gw2 is, there is absolutely no problem going through entire HOT+POF+whatever else with a core build only. And the areas that does define balancing the most at this point of time is Raids and Fractals, all of open world is currently held to that standard, this game has never been "skill balanced" around open world. So nope. But you know, in a way I'd actually like them to balance after the Open World/Story, because then they would finally nerf all the elite specs and probably even core, since open world is considered the easiest content in the game. We honestly don't need all that power for that content anyways.

    And what part of "skill splits" did you not understand? This entire thread is about splitting skill balancing OFF from PVE so that changes done to WvW/PvP does not affect the pve balancing. And you forget that we've had just as much, if not more, the other way around.

    If anything you should be worshiping skill splits, since it means your poor pve skills will never again be touched by evil pvp balance.

    (That, and you should actually read the original post, so you understand what this thread is about)

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    "GW2 is a MSOFGG: Mass Singleplayer Online Fashion Grinding Game" -me

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    I wouldn't go so far as to say on a whole that PvErs aren't as skilled as PvPers and just enjoy the game casually; I doubt that PvErs who raid just to get leggy armour enjoyed it every step of the way...

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    PvP is different than PvE and PvP skills are different than PvE skills. PvP skills are: "How do I kill my foe(s) controlled by real humans with my teammates / solo?". PvE skills are: "How do I kill my AI foe(s) with my teammates / solo?".

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    If nerfing and buffing won't work, then what is a guaranteed way to balance which will work?

    I'm all for the split because each game mode can now be separately balanced independent of each other without having to throw each balance patch under one umbrella and affecting all game modes

    Splitting the content completely and focusing on both separately.

    And by splitting the content, how far do you want to go? Throw PvP and WvW out of the game and make a own "Guild Wars 2: PvP edition" and split the pve into "Guild Wars 2: PvE edition" ? I'd say that goes against ANets design philosophy of "Theme Park", where everyone should find something they like, and easily be able to jump inbetween them.

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Because as a whole pve customers are not as skilled as PvP, they just enjoy the game casually but still like to progress their gears and skills better, the pve on a whole prefer to destroy content not be obliterated by it..

    PvP are all about balance and team skills.. PvE just want to pass content as fast as possible to gain shiny objects.. Yes thats basic but its true the difference in skill levels is insane.

    Thats why nerfing and buffing both will never work.. As a person that quit GW2 completely for 4 years at HoT release becareful how you make PvE content, i am far from alone speaking to other PvE customers..

    There are PvE games where players have to have just as much skill as in PvP modes, so the two aren't exclusive of each others. It's a matter of encounter design and AI among other things. And many PvE players does enjoy that, despite popular belief around here. I have guildies that stick to playing wvw/pvp because they find PvE in this game a joke, and rather go play other games for challenging and interesting PvE.

    Personally I think there is room for both, and wish the devs designed for a much greater variety of skill levels, the game does have one of the best/easiest handicap systems in existence in open world, just bring more numbers if there is difficulty.

    Besides, the actual balance between PvP and PvE has absolutely nothing to do with this, we already have Open-World Tyria for example, which where designed while the entire combat system was balanced around PvP (2012-2014), and they made the majority of the mobs so easy that we still suffer that a large section of players never had to learn and develop much skill in the first place.

    So they've already shown that they can make PvE easy without affecting balancing at all. (And thus we also have the problem that Open World Tyria doesn't actually teach new players how to play, so they don't develop actual skill. Making for some rude awakenings when they enter other modes and get pulverized by the first thing they meet).

    It has everything to do with it.. Open world Tyria was perfect it was accessible to everyone. The later content pushed a lot of customers away and they needed to overhaul it to be more accessible again, even though its still incredibly tedious to enjoy.. bar those that consider themselves hardcores..

    Splitting the content is the smartest decision even if it is the most work.

    Wow, that's subjective.

    When you say that OW-Tyria is perfect, it certainly wasn't for me, and of all the people I've talked with I'd say a fairly small amount is still happy with OW-Tyria, I'd guess about 1 out of 10, small sample and obviously not defining in any way. So I think it is wrong to simply state that it is perfect based solely on your own opinion.

    I find the OW-Tyria is a large part of the problem, because it was nerfed repeatedly since the beta until it has become so easy (through the entire map/level range) that people doesn't need to learn the combat system any-longer. I wish that OW-Tyria had a more diverse difficulty and challenge, so players actually had to improve a bit each time they went to a new level-tier map. That way, when people came to the expansions for example, they wouldn't feel so overwhelmed or get trashed by pocket raptors and hydras the moment they entered the map.

    This game is skill-based, we need to level up the player, not the character/gear. And at the moment, the game doesn't teach players that. That's the biggest problem with OW-Tyria. Splitting the balancing isn't really going to fix that, splitting the modes isn't really going to fix that. Replacing the entire combat system with WOW's probably would... but then I'd quit the game.

    They don't "need" to do anything.. There is no need to level players up.. the game already does that, there is no need to punish players and make them leave either.

    It doesn't "need" to teach players anything its a game people play mostly socially and casually.

    I said level up the player not the character, the game doesn't do that. Meant as in guiding the player to improve their own skill with the game. Not a numeric boost to the character. And I've said nothing about punishing any players, I'm talking about giving a better learning curve so people don't hit a spiked wall when they go into HoT for the first time, because the difficulty spikes so much because there is no difficulty in Tyria. That's not punishing people, that is helping people adapt and learn as they go (the way the vast majority of games, including mmorpg's, work. Slowly increasing difficulty so players are gradually adjusted, and learn to use their tools to overcome).

    It is a skill based combat system, closer to fighting games than it is to traditional RPG's. You certainly don't "need" to learn to get better at it, but then it is your choice not to improve at the game. At that point it is your own choice, and you will just have to accept the consequences of that.

    And just to make that clear, social and casual has nothing to do with it. I'd qualify as both of those, I only really play to play with guildes and friends nowadays, and I definitively play casually. Those two are buzzwords that people use, but are near impossible to define or nail down, and actually includes almost the entire player-base, including most pvp, wvw, fractal, and raiders.

    If your point is "I don't like it, and I want it changed for me." then at least say so. Because that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

    Its not just me in hot i continually am seeing upset customers and dislike for the maps and mechanics.. I've been there a lot lately struggling through the later areas, its not fun at all and the faster i finish the story the quicker i can never go back imo.

    And as I have said, I've seen and talked to people that find HoT difficult, but they are greatly outnumbered by the people I see and talk to that have been through that and progressed and learned how to deal with it. Overall I find more people that dislike the map design being in 3d and having to navigate in multiple layers, and that the mini map is usually no help, than people complaining about the actual difficulty or challenge of HoT. And even those are not the majority.

    Besides no player observation is ever going to give an accurate sample or vision, only ANet sits with the numbers to be able to really comment how many seemingly enjoy or hate HoT etc.

    Now if you don't like it, so be it, that is subjective and up to each individual person. You can do as you like in the game etc. But there are plenty of other players in this game that does not want HoT change into Tyria level, because that would flat out bore them to death.

    Besides, this has absolutely nothing to do with the original topic, which is not about PVE balance, but about the Skill-Splits from PvE into PvP that ANet has been talking about. It is not going to change any PvE at all, it's about how splitting the skills too much from PvE to PvP will make classes too different between the modes.

    Learning to deal with things is not enjoying things.. There is a big difference there. It has everything to do with it. The game mechanics of hot, pof and living stories are a huge factor in pve balancing.. the whole areas are what effect classes and balance most of all.

    Nerf builds for pvp and WvW and you make PvE content unpassable or extremely tedious to do which in effect lowers the populations because customers get tired and move on.

    Learning to deal with things is a large part of what games has been about, and can be said to be one of the things people enjoy in games since the very beginning, everything from FPS, to fighting games, to puzzles, to RPG's of all types. All of them are about "learning to deal with things" as you progress through the game and as such improve yourself, by whatever metric the game uses to evaulate success. In a FPS that would often be reaction time and aiming, in a Fighting game that would be reaction time combos and reading the opponent, in an oldschool RPG it would be about learning what weakness each enemy had and attack with the right attack or just crunching the numbers to increase your odds. GW2 has a combat system that is probably closest to a fighting game in that regard.

    And to be real blunt, considering how skill based gw2 is, there is absolutely no problem going through entire HOT+POF+whatever else with a core build only. And the areas that does define balancing the most at this point of time is Raids and Fractals, all of open world is currently held to that standard, this game has never been "skill balanced" around open world. So nope. But you know, in a way I'd actually like them to balance after the Open World/Story, because then they would finally nerf all the elite specs and probably even core, since open world is considered the easiest content in the game. We honestly don't need all that power for that content anyways.

    And what part of "skill splits" did you not understand? This entire thread is about splitting skill balancing OFF from PVE so that changes done to WvW/PvP does not affect the pve balancing. And you forget that we've had just as much, if not more, the other way around.

    If anything you should be worshiping skill splits, since it means your poor pve skills will never again be touched by evil pvp balance.

    (That, and you should actually read the original post, so you understand what this thread is about)

    I know i totally agree with the thread there, i was explaining how if its not split the game slowly deteriorates because one side effects the other.. Over time its become a mess.. for one party or another.

    I'm all for skill splits. 100%.

    And all that power helps, the quicker i can wipe content the better.. I'm not here for a long time i'm here for a good time.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    After all, shouldn't mob statistics be modeled after player statistics so skills can work in the same way for both?

    That would make PVE way too easy. Remember that this is an open world game where 100 players hit one poor mob, if mobs have similar stats to players they'd melt in seconds, regardless if they had good AI or player-like skills. Also, to use WVW as an example, once a blob gets the upper hand, and players in the other one start dropping, it's game over and you need to retreat. This means PVE engagements will end in the first few minutes and then you'd semi-afk until the fight is over. Clever/experienced commanders can turn a fight around but mob blobs can't retreat and they can't use choke points and/or tactics.

    Also, imagine how terrible mob tagging and rewards would be if mobs were using block/evade/invulnerability skills like players, they have large health pools with little defenses so players can tag them for experience and rewards. Mobs have different mechanics for a reason, they can't really use player skills and builds.

    Well, if mobs still had the different levels they currently got Grunt/Veteran/Elite/Champion they could still be adjusted to that. So a Veteran mob would be similar in stats etc to a player, then Grunt's obviously less. Elites/Champions would have their own scaling, and Champions obviously scale to the number of players.

    It would abstract the system a bit, but it could work.

    Personally I'd love to see monsters actually using player skills/builds, would be a good way to learn how to deal with them, and be able to learn them by trying another class to learn what they're good/weak at etc, be familiar with the attacks to learn how to deal with them. The majority of mobs in tyria atm are just walking potato sacks with hit-points and auto-attacks. Still enjoy the NPC dummies in the PvP map that you can test builds on, they're not super strong, but they use player skills and stats, and are much more interesting to fight against than most PvE mobs. (Shout out to Lake Doric, fun enemies).

    But yeah, every single enemy having the hitpoint of a warrior would obviously not work. I know it's not what you meant, but imagine Shadow Behemoth with Warrior hitpoints scaled to level :p

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    But yeah, every single enemy having the hitpoint of a warrior would obviously not work. I know it's not what you meant, but imagine Shadow Behemoth with Warrior hitpoints scaled to level :p

    I'd give a different example, imagine defending Amber Sandfall in Silverwastes and there are 10 players defending. If the mobs attacking used player-like skills (regardless if they are Mordrem) and player-like statistics, it wouldn't really work that well, they'd die really fast and won't allow players to tag them for participation. The problem with PVE is that players deal too much damage, in PVP/WVW skills and abilities are scaled down. Even those training mobs lack any kind of serious AI to make using their skills exciting.

    Most mobs in core tyria are indeed potato sacks, boring and uninteresting to fight. You can fight almost all core tyria mobs just with auto attacks, no dodging and using white gear, that's how weak they are and how boring those fights are, which is why I personally avoid core tyria unless I'm leveling a new character or doing some events for collections. This is also why I believe any kind of balance decisions based on Core Tyria performance isn't needed at all, it would be pointless. However, I think the living world and the expansions added some well designed mobs that are interesting to fight, without the need for those mobs to have anything in common with players.

    Smokescales, pocket raptors, mushroom bombers, shadowleapers in Heart of Thorns, hydras, awakened canids, awakened abominations in Path of Fire, and even mobs from as early as Season 1, like Molten Alliance berserkers and those Toxic Alliance krait pose a threat to players unlike anything seen anywhere else in Core Tyria. It's easy to see that the developers themselves thought their original mobs were too easy (by design, because they were used for leveling and new players) and have been upping the challenge since the first few updates of the game.

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