ArenaNet should rename word "Raid" into something else — Guild Wars 2 Forums

ArenaNet should rename word "Raid" into something else

Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 6, 2019 in Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids

Current "raids " are fine for average PvE players which likes to do same things over and over again. For some reason it's not boring for them. Their main reason is to do anything together and socialize meantime with others. It can be "raids" but they will be fine with any PvE content. Like dungeons, fractals or even open world stuff.

But current "raids" in Guild Wars 2 have nothing to do with real raiding experience which is focused on progression. And very organized group content.
That's why most of the real raiders quit gw2.
You can't keep raiders interested when there's just 3 bosses per year and game is missing meaningful rewards.

IMO word "Raid" should be renamed to something else. Why?

  • Real raiders feels cheated by ArenaNet.

  • Average PvE players don't like this word. They don't like raids from other mmorpg's so they avoid this content in Guild Wars 2.

It would be healthier for both groups.

Comments

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just because some players have reached the end of progression in raids doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist for everyone else.

    I do agree about the lack of new raids and meaningful rewards.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Even just a renaming would be flogging a dead horse.
    We're done guys, totally done.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    Not a pver but I think that's how raids were setup traditionally in MMOs (wow), gear grinds to step up to the next raid.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    some people think that a perpetual, meaningless geargrind is 'progression'

    Probably the same people OP called 'real raiders' or that gw2 raids are not raids.

  • @Justine.6351 said:

    @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    Not a pver but I think that's how raids were setup traditionally in MMOs (wow), gear grinds to step up to the next raid.

    I played LotRO and WoW and in those, the raid "progression" was figuring out how to beat the raid, then endlessly grinding it to get better gear to make the raid easier. In other words, exactly like GW2. The difference is that the gear in those games was strictly better stat-wise, while in GW2, it's just more convenient and has fun effects.

    GW2 raids have the double-edged effect of not requiring grinding every time a new one comes out, but also not increasing in difficulty beyond mechanics (though tbh that's enough in a lot of cases, for example W3).

  • TIL that im not a real raider.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    some people think that a perpetual, meaningless geargrind is 'progression'

    Probably the same people OP called 'real raiders' or that gw2 raids are not raids.

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

  • @Xar.6279 said:
    Current "raids " are fine for average PvE players which likes to do same things over and over again. For some reason it's not boring for them. Their main reason is to do anything together and socialize meantime with others. It can be "raids" but they will be fine with any PvE content. Like dungeons, fractals or even open world stuff.

    But current "raids" in Guild Wars 2 have nothing to do with real raiding experience which is focused on progression. And very organized group content.
    That's why most of the real raiders quit gw2.
    You can't keep raiders interested when there's just 3 bosses per year and game is missing meaningful rewards.

    IMO word "Raid" should be renamed to something else. Why?

    • Real raiders feels cheated by ArenaNet.

    • Average PvE players don't like this word. They don't like raids from other mmorpg's so they avoid this content in Guild Wars 2.

    It would be healthier for both groups.

    "Super Strike Missions"
    "Voyages"
    "Adventures"

    Any of these sound better?

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xar.6279 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    some people think that a perpetual, meaningless geargrind is 'progression'

    Probably the same people OP called 'real raiders' or that gw2 raids are not raids.

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    So the only real raiders are the ones making guides? I'm ok with this. As a Non-real raider I like the fact that nothing changes so the guides don't get out of date, and I don't have to change my build for no reason. Win Win for everyone.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 7, 2019

    Yea if thats what a real raider is they only got content to do once since after that the progression is gone, so anet should really not waste content on them.
    I mean lets be real they cant curn the content out for those raiders to be happy ( they cant even do it for the semi hardcore ones currently)

  • What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    That kind of progress is possible for a few hours after the raid comes out in any game. Once the world first is done, guides come out and then everyone follows them. If you want to raid without guides, that's totally your prerogative. Well, you and nine friends. Good luck.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Xar.6279 said:
    ...most of the real raiders quit gw2.

    snip

    IMO word "Raid" should be renamed to something else.

    "100% More Fun Now That That Those Guys Are Gone"

    We will see how many raid teams quit after the guides stop flowing from the progression raiders mate.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    I really want to see a Karazhan or Ulduar type of raid in gw2. Something big and epic.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭

    I play from start, and I don't go raid because it to hard, you say it is too easy.
    next poin ir rename ny favorite Acalon dungeon?

  • @Xar.6279 said:

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    This is 100% achievable in gw2. When wing 7 came out, my raid team agreed on not watching any streams, or checking kill videos and try to beat the new wing that way. It took us 3 days, and it was fun.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Melech.4308 said:
    "Super Strike Missions"
    "Voyages"
    "Adventures"

    Any of these sound better?

    I think "adventures" is already taken by the PvE minigames.

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭

    @wasss.1208 said:

    @Xar.6279 said:

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    This is 100% achievable in gw2. When wing 7 came out, my raid team agreed on not watching any streams, or checking kill videos and try to beat the new wing that way. It took us 3 days, and it was fun.

    3 days of progression and 300+ days of waiting :pensive:

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭

    Raid just means instanced group content with higher amount of players than normal group size to me. It has nothing to do with difficulty or how often you've done the raid.
    Progression raiding also has nothing to do with if you use guides or not, it just means you're doing the raids of the current patch.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you. Umbasa.

  • Aetatis.5418Aetatis.5418 Member ✭✭✭

    i really dont know why everybody is so upset about gw2 raids.

    -> ...new raids take ages to be announced/released

    dont compare it to WoW and FF14. gw2 is not the same game, ever tried to consider more factors than raids only? company size? amount of content available? gamemodes available? be more reasonable.

    -> ...no progression

    set yourself goals. no death runs (no downstate). speedruns. different class setups. do all the mechanics instead of skipping them with dps. can we skip mechanics with scrappers only? survive e.g. enrage for x amount of time (if it doesnt kill you 1shot ofc). did you every do a raid with a profession/specialization you enjoy playing, because it feels good playing (visually, skills, traits) rather than the max dps/support it can squish out in a group of 10 people? (i am not saying you should be doing a snowflake build with 3k dps and no support. but try the best you can with a profession you enjoy)
    i know, this is a hard one and i admit it would be easier if achievements for those things were build into the game**, because doing it yourself = work... and we all know this is something everybody likes to avoid (at times. expecially during our free time).

    **(titles, little extra rewards like e.g. special infusions that show "you've done a special thing", weekly reward for the fastest groups/groups with least deaths (a score system so to speak))

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Melech.4308 said:

    @Xar.6279 said:
    Current "raids " are fine for average PvE players which likes to do same things over and over again. For some reason it's not boring for them. Their main reason is to do anything together and socialize meantime with others. It can be "raids" but they will be fine with any PvE content. Like dungeons, fractals or even open world stuff.

    But current "raids" in Guild Wars 2 have nothing to do with real raiding experience which is focused on progression. And very organized group content.
    That's why most of the real raiders quit gw2.
    You can't keep raiders interested when there's just 3 bosses per year and game is missing meaningful rewards.

    IMO word "Raid" should be renamed to something else. Why?

    • Real raiders feels cheated by ArenaNet.

    • Average PvE players don't like this word. They don't like raids from other mmorpg's so they avoid this content in Guild Wars 2.

    It would be healthier for both groups.

    "Super Strike Missions"
    "Voyages"
    "Adventures"

    Any of these sound better?

    Or go with something more descriptively accurate...... Like "Breaking and Entering", "Burglary", "Homicide and/or Assassination", or "Grand Theft Larceny".

  • you run 100+kp run and then come to forum and cry about no challenge. At the end, you can only have so much challenge on PVE boss.

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    Do naked raids for bonus challenge

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    @starlinvf.1358 said:
    Or go with something more descriptively accurate...... Like "Breaking and Entering", "Burglary", "Homicide and/or Assassination", or "Grand Theft Larceny".

    No lies detected. Perfect for our mass-murdering protagonist.

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭

    Rename it to Toxic group content.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Rename it to Toxic group content.

    And open world is toxic solo/group if you want content?

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Even just a renaming would be flogging a dead horse.
    We're done guys, totally done.

    Sad to admit but that's becoming a very true statement. Sometimes there's no LFG raid squads in either region and NA rarely has anything but raid sellers in LFG (on some rare days it gets a bit more active at NA primetime). EU still has somewhat active (though way less than before) LFG between afternoon and midnight EU time.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Would really like to meet some of these "real raiders". There I was, thinking people who focus on low-manning bosses, setting records or on very good full-clear static times could be considered at least semi-hardcore raiders. But I guess they are just aren't real raiders for not caring about gear progression.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Xar.6279Xar.6279 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2019

    Of course low-mans and speed-kills are fun. And you can really feel like you progress something on this kind of raids. I know it. Especially because u use different builds, comps, and strats there. But even this kind of raids gets boring after some time. MMORPG's should offer challenges on your own. Players shouldn't be forced to desperately looking for them...

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Even just a renaming would be flogging a dead horse.
    We're done guys, totally done.

    Sad to admit but that's becoming a very true statement. Sometimes there's no LFG raid squads in either region and NA rarely has anything but raid sellers in LFG (on some rare days it gets a bit more active at NA primetime). EU still has somewhat active (though way less than before) LFG between afternoon and midnight EU time.

    I would attribute that to everyone simply sticking to static groups. Way less overhead, and player weaknesses are known ahead of time. The entire concept of Raids as we think of it is antithetical to Pugs.

    Raids are very community driven, despite the amount of mechanical work that goes into them. If the community isn't willing to cooperate, either with the game or among themselves, the whole thing rapidly falls apart. The Raid community shutting out new players is whats causing the stagnation. New players unwilling to conform their culture is whats causing them to shut people out. Raid culture being judgemental and unwilling to foster a stronger community dynamic is why new players are unwilling to conform. When Raids were new, the raid community had an incentive to be welcoming and willing to invest in training up new players. Once static groups stabilized, all that incentive was lost, and its been nothing but entropy ever since.

    Not all players are cut out for raid content.... but a lot more ARE then is actually participating, because the Raid community has no interest in helping to lower its barrier for entry. To quote House Stark's family motto.... "I got mine"

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Rename it to Toxic group content.

    And open world is toxic solo/group if you want content?

    Disagree OWPvE is far less toxic.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Xar.6279 said:
    Current "raids " are fine for average PvE players which likes to do same things over and over again. For some reason it's not boring for them. Their main reason is to do anything together and socialize meantime with others. It can be "raids" but they will be fine with any PvE content. Like dungeons, fractals or even open world stuff.

    But current "raids" in Guild Wars 2 have nothing to do with real raiding experience which is focused on progression. And very organized group content.
    That's why most of the real raiders quit gw2.
    You can't keep raiders interested when there's just 3 bosses per year and game is missing meaningful rewards.

    IMO word "Raid" should be renamed to something else. Why?

    • Real raiders feels cheated by ArenaNet.

    • Average PvE players don't like this word. They don't like raids from other mmorpg's so they avoid this content in Guild Wars 2.

    It would be healthier for both groups.

    So you feel cheated because you invented your own expectations and Anet did what they wanted with the game that didn't meet them? Yeah, makes sense.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xar.6279 said:
    Current "raids " are fine for average PvE players which likes to do same things over and over again. For some reason it's not boring for them. Their main reason is to do anything together and socialize meantime with others. It can be "raids" but they will be fine with any PvE content. Like dungeons, fractals or even open world stuff.

    But current "raids" in Guild Wars 2 have nothing to do with real raiding experience which is focused on progression. And very organized group content.
    That's why most of the real raiders quit gw2.
    You can't keep raiders interested when there's just 3 bosses per year and game is missing meaningful rewards.

    IMO word "Raid" should be renamed to something else. Why?

    • Real raiders feels cheated by ArenaNet.

    • Average PvE players don't like this word. They don't like raids from other mmorpg's so they avoid this content in Guild Wars 2.

    It would be healthier for both groups.

    Raids shouldn't be called raids, because... there's not enough of them and people that want to raid 24/7 got bored? I don't see the logic in what you just said.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @Xar.6279 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    some people think that a perpetual, meaningless geargrind is 'progression'

    Probably the same people OP called 'real raiders' or that gw2 raids are not raids.

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    .

    @Xar.6279 said:

    @wasss.1208 said:

    @Xar.6279 said:

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    This is 100% achievable in gw2. When wing 7 came out, my raid team agreed on not watching any streams, or checking kill videos and try to beat the new wing that way. It took us 3 days, and it was fun.

    3 days of progression and 300+ days of waiting :pensive:

    Ah, so you're literally trying to push your opinion that any raid that was released more than 3 days earlier somehow stops being a raid and needs to be renamed as a different type of content because people can look up a guide for it.
    ...and apparently a freshly released dungeon should be called "Raid" for first 3 days from its release, because that's the only way you classify that type of content. That's actually hilarious.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Xar.6279 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Lord Rhett.9360 said:
    In what game are raids focused on "progression"?

    some people think that a perpetual, meaningless geargrind is 'progression'

    Probably the same people OP called 'real raiders' or that gw2 raids are not raids.

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    .

    @Xar.6279 said:

    @wasss.1208 said:

    @Xar.6279 said:

    What? By progress I mean progress. So killing some bosses for the first time and figuring out their mechanics on your own. Without using guides because there's none of them on internet yet. This is real raiding experience and its totally different than killing bosses with guides.

    This kind of raiding actually don't exist in gw2. So it's not raids anymore. Its some kind of 10 man dungeon, but certainly not "raid".

    This is 100% achievable in gw2. When wing 7 came out, my raid team agreed on not watching any streams, or checking kill videos and try to beat the new wing that way. It took us 3 days, and it was fun.

    3 days of progression and 300+ days of waiting :pensive:

    Ah, so you're literally trying to push your opinion that any raid that was released more than 3 days earlier somehow stops being a raid and needs to be renamed as a different type of content because people can look up a guide for it.
    ...and apparently a freshly released dungeon should be called "Raid" for first 3 days from its release, because that's the only way you classify that type of content. That's actually hilarious.

    Man all the living world releases are raids then, kitten we get multiple raids a year with this definition.

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