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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival

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  • Swadow.6213Swadow.6213 Member ✭✭✭

    I really hope the Signet of Undeath cost is either reduced from the massive 50% to a more manageable number, otherwise like people and I have said the active will just never be used since the cost is way too high for the effect since losing the passive is also a cost not just the life cost

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    Signet of Undeath buff is much welcomed. Right now there is little reason to use it. Even if you trait it, if you want life force, you just use spectral grasp on cooldown and get way more life force. AND you get a bunch of CC. So the signet is pretty pointless for that. And then for reviving... I've tried to use this skill multiple times in PvP, but it basically never works. The cast time is almost as long as the cast to finish/"stomp" (which already sometimes takes longer than just doing dps), and necro has little to no access to quickness or stability or aegis. And is a common focus target in the first place. So odds of completing a cast are near zero. Compare to signet of mercy. Not only is it a shorter cast, but firebrand has all the quickness, stability, and aegis in the world. Can't even compare the two situations. Total opposites.

    So cutting the cast time is very needed if it is to actually ever be used to revive. Even with having a shorter cast than signet of mercy, it'll still be easier to interrupt, due to necro's lack of boons, but can't really ask for much more. Dunno about this enormous health cost, though. Seems pretty harsh for the worst class in the game at self healing. I suppose the idea is to make it a skill that's taken for the passive effect only and never used. I guess it'd be good in the impossible case of your enemies ignoring the necro and only attacking your allies. Then it would be incredibly powerful.

    Should probably consume life force instead, as someone else suggested.

  • reapex.8546reapex.8546 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @reapex.8546 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Why? what is the point in all of this? Why not focus on actual balance issues like druids and chronomancers..

    I don't see anything wrong with druids after all the nerfs.

    The fact no one uses them outside of raids and maybe fractals says different.

    People use them in WvW too.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    You still play a Chrono in WvW? With the Inspiration line? Well, to use CS you need at least one clone. If you are not as fast as Speedy Gonzales, you will not have the chance to use CS in a zerg fight. Moreover, if your squad is down you will need a lot of time for this combination (a "lot" compared with the time needed for the enemy team to kill you). In fact, I'm pretty sure that in such condition you will not even have time to start resurrecting someone.

    It is nice to theorize. But please, go play WvW. You will find the WvW environment to be quite different from the "laboratory" environment.

    IK you like being toxic but i usually roam in WvW. PvE i use chrono and i have seen chronos in WvW for veil / portal bombs. It's a valid strat.

    Anyway back on topic. I'm seeking clarification from the devs. Since they state reviving. Since it's just stated that feedback revives 5% per second. Full dead or just downed it's not clarified.

  • @Pyroatheist.9031 said:
    No, it'll have a 5-target cap like every other normal aoe in the game. Additionally, if a mesmer is able to stand there burning a hilarious amount of cooldowns to slowly res people that can just get poisoned and cleaved out anyway, something has gone terribly wrong. This is a cute change but completely useless for WvW.

    Just want clarification :P. They also only state

    now causes Feedback to revive allies inside it by 5% per second.

    meaning it could work on full dead as well. Since you can revive full dead when ooc.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    none of the AoE revive things work on defeated (full dead)

  • Luranni.9470Luranni.9470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

    Medic's Feedback might be too strong.
    We are a little worried about it but not any more than the other revival changes.

    The problem with throwing stuff in game that you're "worried" about and unsure of is that it takes forever for things to get fixed once they are live (the "part 2" of various balance and wvw additions sometimes never turns up at all). The fact that you are implying you are worried about -all- changes is of concern. I'm also concerned that resources are being spent on stuff like this that nobody asked for when there are so many bigger balance issues.

    Cal's posts in WvW had made me cautiously optimistic. Shame.

  • Nepster.4275Nepster.4275 Member ✭✭✭

    IMO since the game modes now have splitted teams for balance, the PvE team should care more about the balance of certain classes like FB(wich is too dumb and strong) and Holo(wich is too complicated and weak), all this QoL should be left after they fix the awful skill:reward ratio of some classes, all this is nice and shiny but WvW/PvP will get balance patched, and PvE will get unmeaningful trait changes I mean as from a raid perspective I cant really think about any case of using these other than twisted castle, and some Jumping Puzzles in open world

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Oh, and the changes to Signet of Undeath remove one of the Necro's primary emergency buttons in groups. Bad, bad, BAD idea, for a class that already is just barely holding on to what little niche it has left in this game.

  • @Robert Gee.9246 any plans to change "Allies' Aid" or rework it? This trait was already weak and it's going to be even weaker after this change, the others ress traits are much better than this one.

    Joko lies, Balthazar don't.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just adding in my voice to not get rid of the fall damage reduction. I'd be fine with a rework, changing fall reduction altogether or putting it behind a mastery - but since I love exploring, this is sometimes really essential. Yes, gliding has reduced my deaths due to falling damage significantly, but in many areas - mainly JPs, but also instances and stuff - gliding is not possible.

    So I welcome simplification of these traits, but I'd still like to see falling damage reduction somewhere. Not having to switch builds would even be a plus - even though one could now get a "exploring build template"... :tongue:

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Oh, and the changes to Signet of Undeath remove one of the Necro's primary emergency buttons in groups. Bad, bad, BAD idea, for a class that already is just barely holding on to what little niche it has left in this game.

    they only care about Guard.. time to just play Guardian.. Scourge is already an old story and gone from game.. Tempest Support only thing he had to offer for the party was good healing and ress ability.. to keep them alive.. he lost the 10% revive speed while other sups lost it aswell they never really ment for revive but for boons.
    and also. .. they gave most classes gyzer why play tempest sup now? or necro? just play guard have perm protection inane everything.. 1 class to do it all.
    i lost my passion for this game right now and im not going to support them anymore or spend a single peny more on this game until they actually start to communicate about pve aswell and balance this game.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Good changes overall.
    As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:
    Good changes overall.
    As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?

    This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.

  • Alik.9651Alik.9651 Member ✭✭

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Are you serious? The concept of "Initiative" or "Adrenaline" on Necro is LF ...... not HP
    Initiative and Adrenaline can only access by the Thief or Warrior him/herself, but HP IS NOT
    If some day Necros' HP is only self-accessible or Signet of Undeath can really UN-DEATH my friend. I'm ok to using HP not LF

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Robert Gee.9246

    Wvw meta already adjusted long time ago... mass aoe spam with tons of scourges + condi bunkers, and scrappers to convert every condi to boon, anything else does not work there... u guys need to play more wvw than hide in a mass zerg and 11111111.... seriously, don look at thing on the paper.. reality its diferent, and dont play only on overstacked servers, play across several timezones on several servers to actually understand what is happening.

    Problem with scourge is in its class design, u guys aded more aoe on a game already saturated with aoe, shades need a diferent mechanic or be something else.
    Theres to much of everything, barrier, aoe, boon spam, boons corrupt, its a mess of skills design atm(IMO barrier should had been a guardian/FB barrier to protect allies , never on aoe class designed like scourge, nor gave it to other classes as well ...).
    Alot of skills arent rendered on the clients either, just invisible damage floating arround hitting everyhitng that comes to that zone.. i have a very decent computer and a good fiber conection actually.. still client has lots of hipcups when theres a massive aoe spam...

    Players are still relaying way to much on stacking scourges reason tends to be a omni blob or 2 groups of 40/50 with mostly scourges/fb/scrappers/spellbreakers.
    Ohter WvW issue is the 50+ players blobs against small servers dont help meta as well due how broken and easy/effeortless aoe stackign works on this game... this is how WvW works, "big VS medium VS small", while smaller groups cap back stuff so the zerg server at that timezone can have more "content" to ktrain, its a awfull design.... it always was... i am still waiting for aliances...

    On second note, how can u guys thinking changing rez skills while we have bloodscourge / healing scourges rezing in meta, and u guys want to "tweak" rez skills..? srly, w/o fix what is the issue of the pvp gameplay and larger pvp gameplay???

    - If u want faster rez but without being OP make rez work like GW1(actually an hybrid system with gw1 and gw2 its not hard...), tweak the freaking racial skills, make racial skills into Elite skills that actually fits the class and the race as well, this would be decent in pvp as well, it would touch rez as u guys want and fix the super useless racial skills......

    • Fall damage traits can still be tweaked but they stay as fall damage traits, tweak them to actually fit the class the players is playing, fall damage traits are still important in the game, they just lack mechanics for what u guys introduced later.
    • Game is overburdened with aoe, some cleaves need to become single, some aoe need to be something else but less or diferent, and some very very few skills need to become larger strong 15-20 capped aoes on high CD.

    On 3rd note, if post feels a bit blunt, sorry then but its 6-7years of waitting for a "decent ideology of balance" rather than make balance and a game to carry gimmicks and stacks vs less aoe spam groups.. gw2 atm is very faulty.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Necromancer

    • Added additional health cost of 50% of base health to this skill.

    are you saying we can commit suicide by using this skill? its going to both be useless and very funny to use at the same time lol.

    edit
    nope nvm. still gonna be too high of a cost tho. maybe life force instead of health? I don't get why necro's res is the only one that needs an associated cost with it. doesn't make sense.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    I think you missed another..

    ^ Start at 7:18

  • XenoSpyro.1780XenoSpyro.1780 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alukah.2063 said:
    Fall damage traits aren't needed, but they were an option to reduce risks while doing certain tasks. Why remove the option if it's doing no harm to keep it?

    Having additional risk is fine. This game needs it tbh. Outright removing it is change for the sake of change. This is why I'm in favor of making FDR tagged Combat Only, and if needed, migrate this property to a trait that might make more sense as part of a regular build. Examples, the FDR on Grenadier ought to be moved to Short Fuse or Mecha Legs, and from Peak Performance to Brave Stride (or leave PP as is). Sometimes mergers just make more sense to me.

  • @Vegeta.2563 said:
    I think you missed another..

    Both glider and mounts are allowed in this jumping puzzle, and there are skritts NPCs that will revive you if you die.

  • ParadoX.3124ParadoX.3124 Member ✭✭✭

    Why didn't you change Toss Elixir R?
    We did not originally plan to modify Toss Elixir R as we considered it fairly strong due to its 5 target cap and 170% total revive amount. With that said, we took another look at it and decided to make a few changes since there we felt that it being stopped by projectile destruction/reflection was too punishing for its recharge.

    This skill is only used in PvP as gimmick, we engi don't use it in any game mode ; Maybe you could buff a little bit elixir R ? Giving it some buffs (Prot, removing conditions ?)
    Even with this change on reflection, it will still not be used.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Good changes overall.
    As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?

    This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.

    That would be unnecessarily over-complicating it rather than leaving the traits as it was. Even if this is a post glider/mount era, not everyone has either/both of those. Anet, if you are going to remove those falling traits in this "post glider/mount" time, why don't you make glider/mounts available to everyone then? Yeah? If we are going down the nonsensical path, why don't we also go down this one.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @flog.3485 said:
    Good changes overall.
    As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?

    This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.

    That would be unnecessarily over-complicating it rather than leaving the traits as it was. Even if this is a post glider/mount era, not everyone has either/both of those. Anet, if you are going to remove those falling traits in this "post glider/mount" time, why don't you make glider/mounts available to everyone then? Yeah? If we are going down the nonsensical path, why don't we also go down this one.

    Well ill start with the end of your statement first about it being nonsensical. Its really might not be because we dont know what they are planning to do with season 5. Secondly most of the areas people are complaining about are areas where you cant use gliders and mounts which means your idea of giving gliders and mounts to everyone solves nothing for these locations.

    For the majority gliders or mounts are available ideally unless you are free to play then im not sure what to say.
    I mean rare combat situations where you want to take those traits for fall damage reduction might be a bit niche (maybe wvw and a few rare spots in general pve but i cant say ive ever need to stop what i was doing to take that fall damage reduction traits.) and jumping puzzles as other people have pointed out can just be done the correct way they were indented to be done without the need of such traits.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    Its really might not be because we dont know what they are planning to do with season 5.

    Can't really imagine them doing something in a season exclusively for a trait. Especially falling damage.

    I mean rare combat situations where you want to take those traits for fall damage reduction might be a bit niche (maybe wvw

    In WvW (depnding on how you play) there are many scenarios of which I use this. It's especially helpful when I'm trying to get away from being ganked, or if I'm fighting outnumbered (whether on purpose or not). I also use it for the fields, and also to drop on siege while defending towers. It's one of many tactics to use to lure people away as a distraction and making them commit to you from whatever they were doing. I'd understand the people that never used it to not see it's usefulness, but it is definitely far from useless or "over-complicating" trait descriptions as it was put.

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

    Stronger reses are not desired in PvP.
    We are looking at competitive splits for some of these changes but they haven't been finalized yet.

    Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.
    We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Medic's Feedback might be too strong.
    We are a little worried about it but not any more than the other revival changes.

    Stalwart Courage (Courageous Return) is definitely too strong.
    Talked this one over with Cal and we're going to split the protection duration in PvP/WvW to 1 second. We considered an ICD for this trait, but think it's more interesting without it so we will only add one if this split proves insufficient to balance it.

    Why didn't you change Toss Elixir R?
    We did not originally plan to modify Toss Elixir R as we considered it fairly strong due to its 5 target cap and 170% total revive amount. With that said, we took another look at it and decided to make a few changes since there we felt that it being stopped by projectile destruction/reflection was too punishing for its recharge.

    • Toss Elixir R: This skill no longer removes 1 condition when thrown. Increased projectile speed by 25%. The projectile thrown by this skill is now unblockable. Fixed an issue where the land and water versions of this skill moved at different speeds.

    Yeah I meant Griffonrook Run I was a bit in a hurry then . I tried it it once for the Skyscale achievement in the end it was one of 3 which I didn't completed basically every guide said take a fall dmg trait . In terms of difficulty it is at least in the top10 of the Jumping Puzzles despite what anyone might say about it. I might at that you possible don't want the bomb and go straight for the skyscale I don't know how this works out with the changes.

    About the fall dmg traits no build I know takes those in any other circumstances because the secondary effect is/was to weak or sitting even traitlines which nobody use.

    About revival traits I can only say the higher you get inside the tiers inside of the endcontent the rarer you will see anybody get rezzed. This is true for all endcontent pvp you have oneshot builds and the camping on downed , in wvw you are instead dead because of stacking aoes the exception is maybe roaming but then the same is true like in pvp and in PvE you have often instead dead mechanic when you fail it => raids / and fractals cm 100 or you are so good you don't get even downed once.

    So for any good player those changes have no impact whatsoever but on the other hand is looks a bit like change for the sake of changes to tell the truth.

  • I'm pro removal as a trait go give space for more usefull stuff, but maybe add a fall damage sigil that people can chose if they really need it.. i belive only the hardcore JP porting community will take them OR a few mesmer in WvW for porting down... problem solved

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reapex.8546 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:

    @reapex.8546 said:

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Why? what is the point in all of this? Why not focus on actual balance issues like druids and chronomancers..

    I don't see anything wrong with druids after all the nerfs.

    The fact no one uses them outside of raids and maybe fractals says different.

    People use them in WvW too.

    In the time i've played WvW i've not seen any.

  • Cronos.6532Cronos.6532 Member ✭✭✭

    @mbhalo.1547 said:
    @Robert Gee

    How about giving us a craftable gizmo that gives temporary fall damage reduction as a compromise.

    ArenaNet wants to minimize from-inventory of commonly used items, so they would have to make this hotkeyable like a novelty and put portal devices, teleportation guns, rewinders, etc. there as well

    signature

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Vegeta.2563 said:
    I think you missed another..

    the skritt revives you

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @jorgasbb.1846 said:
    why waste dev time on this when there are so many other issues to fix, that actually need fixing?

    Well you can’t argue that fall damage traits are taking up space that could be allocated to improve combat balance. Other that that rez speed traits are a bit OP as well.

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bad changes. While I like the new additional effect for engineer the fall damage reduction trait was nice - when still playing without mounts and gliders. (I'm just about to finish the remaining achievements from LS2 then only buying the expansions and starting to play them in order ... by unlocking gliders first.) Also - as mentioned - some JPs don't allow gliders/mounts.

    I don't see how the trait description is too complicated (there are tons of other traits with lots of stuff in the description especially if there is more than 1 skill that gets buffed by a trait) ... seems only like a way to get people to buy (and play) the expansions earlier. Or to make the JPS harder. (Then again you'd need to disable mesmer portals there as well.)

    Food suggestion someone brought up seems nice though. The point with "fall damage reduction was the main reaseon to use that trait" seems valid and now other traits get more relevant maybe. Food you could just use in a JP and then switch back to some other food if you need it for fighting or other stuff.

    I just hope they won't remove the movement speed increase as well - to get people to use mounts and the underwater infusions instead. (Would be the next logic step - since it acts similar and the traits get mainly choosen because of that.)

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:
    Well you can’t argue that fall damage traits are taking up space that could be allocated to improve combat balance.

    If we're taking about "taking space" and "combat balance" there's quite a bit of places to remove all those passives/condi/boon/etc that would definitely improve combat balance. As I see it, falling dmg has a place and shouldn't be removed -look at it more as a utility. The game gives you a lot of utilities, do you use them all at the same time? No. You choose when you need to use them, but that doesn't mean they are useless just because someone chooses not to use it. It may be garbage to someone who only goes for dps, but in the right hands that other person will be able to beat the dps guy when used right. I'd say they need to think about removing other stuff in trait lines that affect meta directly, and falling damage is not one of them. They should leave it be.

  • @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    If the dev's are bent on removing fall damage from selectable traits, may i suggest that you tag the fall damage reduction to the minor trait instead? That way, everyone who takes that traitline has access to FDR and they still get to make a meaningful choice about their selectable traits. Either that, or remove falling damage from the game or reduce falling damage to 50% hp (or whatever number) upon impact, no matter how far you fall. Beyond that, none of the proposed changes make much sense to me as no-one was complaining about the issues they're supposed to fix.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
    Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

    I think you missed another..

    ^ Start at 7:18

    I've done this jp hundreds of times and with every single profession that the game offer. It's tight but you don't need the fall damage reduction trait in this jp (it would have bothered me to change my builds just for this easy jp). You'd show a video of the etherlame jp, I'd kind of agree with you since this jp is a massive unforgivable pain but silverwaste jp have plenty of savepoints and absolutely don't need you to reduce your fall damage.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2019

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    This. And it's not just jumping puzzles. Ascent to Madness at Halloween will now be pretty much impossible due to all the long jumps chasing after the Mad King.

    uh, when I did did Ascent to Madness last week, I didn't use a fall damage trait.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah I'm against this kitten as well I mean I can come up with a ton of things in this game that have no use in wvw or are so poorly underpowered but its more along the lines of you haven't lost enough players yet so go doing some remarkably more unproductive than others doing changes. The only thing I could understand is if the griffon, skyscale, or some new mount is coming to wvw. Otherwise things like the falling buff on the desert borderland cannot be used as an attack or strategy because there is no way to tell if its contested as well as it has no tier system. Which one thing I've said before is give it a tier system and make towers give it a shield so the tower has to flip before the shrine can be flipped. So if the tower owner flips the shrine first its shielded until as mentioned above. That just just in relation to the air keeps shrine ability to damage players when you hit the ground but you have to be super super high up for it work effectively on top of all that.

    Overall though if you want to go rework something devs go rework kalla so it can be used in wvw like any class in any meta or off meta builds you never use all of one skill type and I know it works for herald but herald has useful mechanics that cannot be run over by 50+ people and instantly die. Plus if I see an ele I don't even have any doubt that they are a free kill. SO the smarter and more productive thing to do is fix things that need fixing. I mean I know many guilds their inside joke already is dying to cliffs but apparently that isn't enough you want wvw to be primarily dying to cliffs more than dying to other players. I still think they are trying to self sabotage themselves its like patch after patch of useless kitten.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @misterman.1530 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

    Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

  • @Lily.1935 said:

    @misterman.1530 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

    Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

    Sorry. I don't understand why you would want "...to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice". Role-playing? What pay off? In WvW, all that does is kill you faster.
    Or are you saying the payoff should be higher for that sacrifice and you want a rework?

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @misterman.1530 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

    Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

    I think thats my issue though the balance of pay off and cost is not really balanced properly.
    Maybe if this was 2016 sure... but in the current of 2019 the cost/risk is always mad high while the pay off is subpar or moderate at best.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @misterman.1530 said:

    @Robert Gee.9246 said:
    Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
    No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

    Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

    Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

    What bother me most is that those "sacrifices" don't come with enough "power" to keep up or even outclass professions that don't sacrifice anything. All in all, the return on investment of all necromancer's skills that involve sacrifice is and have always been low.

    The necromancers can self bleed, self poison... etc. Why is there no trait that make him deal more damage when he is affected by self-ailment? They intend to put a health cost on signet of undeath, they could at least add a nasty aoe fear for this sacrifice. I mean, the necromancer that will use SoU will sacrifice both it's sustain (4-6% LF every 3 seconds) and a chunk of it's health pool just to rally 1 player. It's like elementalist puting all it's attunment on an extra 2 second CD just to rally another player. Nobody in it's right mind would do that, it's not worth the cost. It's the same for all corruption skills, they have a nasty cost but in the end their power is average at best and even sometime weaker than what what other professions offer. You put condition on yourself, force yourself to take condi transfert and then sacrifice this condi transfert to maybe deal a tiny bit of damage and in the end, despite that you don't even compare to other profession in term of dps...

    I personnally don't think that reducing the cast time is a good idea. Yes it's very interesting PvP wise but at the same time it end up outclassing the stomp ability. Which mean that it break the balance between revive and stomp. Ideally for those 2 ability to compete, they need the same cast time and the faster to react should "win" the contest. Here, the balance throw this balance to oblivion.

    I know that they intend to balance these rallying ability separately in sPvP, but let's be real, nobody's gonna "sacrifice" an utility skill in PvE for a rallying skill. For the sake of being more efficient, such behavior will be "prohibited" in PvE.

    The whole reasoning is flawed, and like you said Lilly, the necromancer end up being a "mechanism graveyard".