Tempest vs Weaver

My question to Eles is at what point is it ok that tempest can play moment to moment as not a tempest (not using overloads but just swapping like a core ele) and weaver has to keep playing as a weaver unless it has a wasted utility slot for unravel? Why dose it seem tempest is an elite spec that adds to core ele where weaver simply takes away.

There needs to be a fix to weaver to mach what tempest can chose to do or not do OR changes tempest to be more like weaver where you must overload before being able to swap.

Tempest is far more support friendly than Weaver from what i have personally experienced so far.I for one would not mind keeping this distinction with Tempest having decent dps and being support friendly and Weaver taking he role of a very aggresive high damage/high risk specialization. Having all specs do the same thing at the same level gets kinda boring, and Tempest has ended up being a decent enough spec, compared to the very confusing mess it was at the launch of HoT (also... the warhorn on tempest used to sound like a giant case of flatulence).Unfortunately, the Weaver dps is not exactly a match for the high risk gameplay, speaking strictly of pve, as i don't pvp or play wvw enough to pass an oppinion on that.Weaver is getting a ballance pass as confirmed in the reddit ama so i guess we'll have to wait and see.

No. The whole point of elite specs is to introduce a new way to play the class.

Comply missed my point here its not about the rolls they fill but how there F1-F5 changes and how one elite spec tempest can play as if they are not an elite spec at all with no cost to there game play yet the other elite spec must play with its F1-F5 unless they give up a utility slot. Tempest should be the benches mark for all other elite spec for ele so the weaver should be able to swap as if it was a core ele when the player dose not want to.

Lets get on the rolls they play tempest dose not need to overload to fill that support roll its more about its shouts and the line it self such as added effects to auras. Tempest must use its duel skill all the time some that do not fill that dmg roll some that do but offten due to the speed of these duel skill they do not out do the core skill of the weapons. That and the utility of the stances are pure def out side of one that is melee condi comply taking away from the roll of dps as a class type. Why has tempest been giving a free ride in effect giving up nothing to get a lot of support effects and yes some dmg over core ele yet if weaver asked for some what the same treatment for dmg over a core ele its looked down on.

Weaver is a weak class at best its only getting a buff to its sword dmg and most ppl are not holding there breath at that.

@"Swanky McDanky.5214" said:No. The whole point of elite specs is to introduce a new way to play the class.

Agreed with the concept, but Weaver does about as poor of a job at that as Tempest.

Tempest is pretty much "Ele 2.0" and Weaver is really really similar to base Ele with the class mechanic being the sole gimmick to try and be different but still being the same.

Heck Weaver is even advertised by ANET at one point as "brawler" which is exactly what core ele was, what Tempest was advertised as (and in many ways is) and now Weaver is too. Either a terrible case of short term memory loss or lack of imagination, take your pick.

Pop unravel and you will see that you are exactly like base line Ele, with mediocre traits that are mostly stat buffs and not build / play style changing stuff. Even without unravel (which just makes it more glaring) you can see how it is really similar with a lot of the skills and traits also very similar to what ele already has (cauterizing strike the biggest offender by being literally equal to Fire Grab except weaker, but others carry similarly heavy similarities).

I like the concept of Weaver, but it needs a careful and dedicated balance patch to be something different.

Have major doubts that will happen though.

@Azel.4786 said:

@"Swanky McDanky.5214" said:No. The whole point of elite specs is to introduce a new way to play the class.

Right just because its new dose not make it good and doing something that is cumbersome and not as powerful for the sake of doing something new is not worth it.

@Azel.4786 said:

@"Swanky McDanky.5214" said:No. The whole point of elite specs is to introduce a new way to play the class.

You're talking about roles here. The point isn't to make the class fit a new role. As far as that goes, the ideology of this game has always been that every class should be able to fit in any role, if not optimally. The point is to make the class have different gameplay. Which both Tempest and Weaver do very well. Both their mechanics are quite defining for their gameplay and make them very distinct from core ele and from one another.

And about the skills - of course there will be many skills which are similar to already existing ones. There's only so much variance you can do with a limited number of game mechanics while staying in the theme of the class. They introduced auto attack chains in Sword, which is a pretty huge change from ele. What exactly do you expect on weapon skills? Clones? Light fields?

Weaver is a job well done.

@Jski.6180 said:Comply missed my point here its not about the rolls they fill but how there F1-F5 changes and how one elite spec tempest can play as if they are not an elite spec at all with no cost to there game play yet the other elite spec must play with its F1-F5 unless they give up a utility slot. Tempest should be the benches mark for all other elite spec for ele so the weaver should be able to swap as if it was a core ele when the player dose not want to.

Lets get on the rolls they play tempest dose not need to overload to fill that support roll its more about its shouts and the line it self such as added effects to auras. Tempest must use its duel skill all the time some that do not fill that dmg roll some that do but offten due to the speed of these duel skill they do not out do the core skill of the weapons. That and the utility of the stances are pure def out side of one that is melee condi comply taking away from the roll of dps as a class type. Why has tempest been giving a free ride in effect giving up nothing to get a lot of support effects and yes some dmg over core ele yet if weaver asked for some what the same treatment for dmg over a core ele its looked down on.

Weaver is a weak class at best its only getting a buff to its sword dmg and most ppl are not holding there breath at that.

I tried, I really did. What is this guy saying? Their defined role's aren't solely in the elite spec trait line. You can make each elite spec do different things with the other two lines you spec into. But each elite is definitely better suited to specific lines over others. You say that you want each elite spec to do the same thing, but that's entirely against the idea of what an elite spec is supposed to do for a class.

The fact that the Weaver attunements behave differently than the Tempest's is by design and helps to better distinguish their individual approaches to the Elementalist base class. Tempest has Overload mechanics that put attunements on a 20 second cool down, with a base 10s if you don't trait into Arcane. Weaver has base FOUR second cool downs, which highlights the Weaver's ability to swap attunements quickly and fluidly.

I still don't get what you're asking for.

Simple, he's asking for a 4 seconds CD on your last attunement without the 4 seconds global CD. Makes you wonder why it doesn't happen, right? :lol:

@Jski.6180 said:My question to Eles is at what point is it ok that tempest can play moment to moment as not a tempest (not using overloads but just swapping like a core ele) and weaver has to keep playing as a weaver unless it has a wasted utility slot for unravel? Why dose it seem tempest is an elite spec that adds to core ele where weaver simply takes away.

Honestly the bigger problem is, as you mention, that many elite specs don't take away. Specs like the Weaver or the Mirage are by nature specialized elite specs because they remove an aspect of the base class. Which, frankly, is just healthier for a game overall.

@Swanky McDanky.5214 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Comply missed my point here its not about the rolls they fill but how there F1-F5 changes and how one elite spec tempest can play as if they are not an elite spec at all with no cost to there game play yet the other elite spec must play with its F1-F5 unless they give up a utility slot. Tempest should be the benches mark for all other elite spec for ele so the weaver should be able to swap as if it was a core ele when the player dose not want to.

Lets get on the rolls they play tempest dose not need to overload to fill that support roll its more about its shouts and the line it self such as added effects to auras. Tempest must use its duel skill all the time some that do not fill that dmg roll some that do but offten due to the speed of these duel skill they do not out do the core skill of the weapons. That and the utility of the stances are pure def out side of one that is melee condi comply taking away from the roll of dps as a class type. Why has tempest been giving a free ride in effect giving up nothing to get a lot of support effects and yes some dmg over core ele yet if weaver asked for some what the same treatment for dmg over a core ele its looked down on.

Weaver is a weak class at best its only getting a buff to its sword dmg and most ppl are not holding there breath at that.

Well yes weaver atuments behave very different from ele and tempest but so different that it harms the class and the other added effect it has. The thing is tempest swaps do not different from ele core swaps at all and in a lot of ways that is what saved the tempest as a viable class. Weaver swaps system is so bad that anet added in a utility knowing ppl would need it to make the class viable.

My question to you and to every one who plays ele why must weaver get different treatment then tempest did?

@Feanor.2358 said:Simple, he's asking for a 4 seconds CD on your last attunement without the 4 seconds global CD. Makes you wonder why it doesn't happen, right? :lol:

Not even close what i am asking for is the ability to do a full swap and not just a 3/5 swap or at the very lest the ability to swap from the other way. What we have now is a mess of a class who happens to have a lot of passive dmg +%. If you take these dmg +% passive effects away its a worthless class / line.

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Jski.6180 said:My question to Eles is at what point is it ok that tempest can play moment to moment as not a tempest (not using overloads but just swapping like a core ele) and weaver has to keep playing as a weaver unless it has a wasted utility slot for unravel? Why dose it seem tempest is an elite spec that adds to core ele where weaver simply takes away.

I am ok with that but that what has not happens to the other eliet spec so unless they go back and make the other elite spec lose something its too late for this point of view. I went at anet even feanor on this point of view a lot and went as far as to ask for elite spec to lose something form the core class to make some real different choose of how to play and pains of choosing one vs another real but this did not happen so we must work with what we have. Tempest IS the benchmark for ele elite spec any thing less then that will be nothing more then a novitly.

@Carighan.6758 said:@Jski.6180 said:

Honestly the bigger problem is, as you mention, that many elite specs

don't take away

. Specs like the Weaver or the Mirage are by nature specialized elite specs because they remove an aspect of the base class. Which, frankly, is just healthier for a game overall.

Let’s be honest the HoT elite specs were largely all better than the core classes despite being advertised as alternate play styles. ANet dropped the ball massively on HoT for the way elite specs played out where support specs did more damage than any other iteration of the class and massive discrepancies through all other classes, the absolute worst was probably Chrono in terms of how straight up stronger it was.

So yes it’s time ANet started adjusting the HoT elite specs however to say tempest gives up nothing isn’t entirely correct either, when you use an overload, the elite spec mechanic, you have double the cool down on that attunement no? The problem is the overloads are too strong in damage but lack the support while generally being overloaded in what they do, same with traits, many of them do way too much and others do barely anything or just synergise poorly.

The whole point of weaver is to weave attunements, if you want full swap take unravel. We can get a 95% cooldown reduction on attuning, there is no need for more, especially when you can reduce even further with elite stance.

I'm staying Fire/Water/Tempest. I can dish out a decent amount of dmg (not tops), stay alive pretty good, and heal. In dungeons and world events, that last bit has made a huge difference.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:@Jski.6180 said:

Honestly the bigger problem is, as you mention, that many elite specs

don't take away

. Specs like the Weaver or the Mirage are by nature specialized elite specs because they remove an aspect of the base class. Which, frankly, is just healthier for a game overall.

Overloads are not a must on tempest a lot of what a tempest can pull off comes from there auras yes overloads gives you auras but so do shouts (for some reason stances do not feel like they are part of weaver's roll one bit). There no draw back to running tempest line other then losing a line there are major draw backs from running weaver line. Its a too late thing as long as tempest of HoT elite spec are as they are now (the ones that do not lose any thing) all other elite spec will be benchmark off of that.

I want a few things for weaver but first we need to look at the core swap effect weaver should be able to do full swaps not just 3/5 of a swap. Having a utility to "fix" it is not a real chose because it takes away from a much needed utility slot in effect handicapping you as an ele player vs all other classes in the game.

OR the ability to changes the way your swaping so being able to chose from main hand swap to offhand swamping. This dose not fix the 3ed skill lost from the core class but it would go a long way to letting weaver get its best skills faster its 4 and 5 skills.

@extremexhero.9178 said:The whole point of weaver is to weave attunements, if you want full swap take unravel. We can get a 95% cooldown reduction on attuning, there is no need for more, especially when you can reduce even further with elite stance.

Its a price to much to pay for an ele to give up an utility and a full line just to make another line viable.

Tempest is more efficient/flexible/adaptable and noob friendly in survivability/damage. Overall it is a balanced spec.Weaver has more damage output potential, is trickier, but way more fun imo. Sword just needs some damage and speed buff, a larger gap closer, and it would be close to balanced.

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Tempest is more efficient/flexible/adaptable and noob friendly in survivability/damage. Overall it is a balanced spec.Weaver has more damage output potential, is trickier, but way more fun imo. Sword just needs some damage and speed buff, a larger gap closer, and it would be close to balanced.

Because melee is how you should play the lowest hp class in pve right? Weaver needs to be much more then its sword and if your just going to make weaver a pure sword class what was the point of all the other skills and the pitch line of 20+ new skills.

As things stand even in spvp and wvw scepter is better then sword for most things even if they where to buff sword a lot more because of ele hp / armor pool being the lowest in the game.The best way to think of weaver is to think how it plays with out the dmg + effects and how it plays with "weaver" only effects on its line. Weaver has 1 weaver ish effect on its GM the double swap (and i would not call that a ture weaver effect it should be duel skills or stances or barrier effects not generation) tempest has 2 on its GM that was tempest only. That IS another major problem with the weaver class it simply do not act like it wants to be a weaver on its line. Weaver being duel skills having barrier up and use of stances. Must like tempest should be use of overloads using shouts and using auras.

I tend to agree with Jski on this one. Tempest brings something new on top of what you had with core ele. Weaver tries to rewrite core ele.

Ultimately Weaver is just a harder to play ele that does more damage. It doesn't do anything else.

"Yeah but what about sword?" -- if the only viable weapon for Weaver is sword, then the design is a fail.

I think all weapon sets are viable, but it sure offers nothing more but damage. I wish that thematically the combined elements created something new, with a unique flavor, but it's just more burning/chill with fire/water, or burning/bleeding with fire earth... There could have been some recycled GW1 skills, Like obsidian flame, a flame that does nothing but pure direct damage that ignores armor.

@Jski.6180 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:@Jski.6180 said:

Honestly the bigger problem is, as you mention, that many elite specs

don't take away

. Specs like the Weaver or the Mirage are by nature specialized elite specs because they remove an aspect of the base class. Which, frankly, is just healthier for a game overall.

@extremexhero.9178 said:The whole point of weaver is to weave attunements, if you want full swap take unravel. We can get a 95% cooldown reduction on attuning, there is no need for more, especially when you can reduce even further with elite stance.

Are you talking PvE or PvP? In PvP water overload is absolutely essential to the class and build, same can be said for earth as the protection if gives and immob is very very useful, air overload is mostly just good for the shocking aura and fire overload as I say it does too much damage but barely anything for support as the AoE for granting might is far too small. Auras and shouts are an all in aspect, remember we take 3 trait lines to affect auras and shouts for that support and purpose along with a rune set however overloads are just as integral to the build as the shouts.

In PvE overloads are a crucial part of the dps with air overload being 30-40% of your damage in a fresh air build and overload fire and air being 15-20% or so in a staff tempest build. However tempest is a support spec, it’s what it was advertised as so basically it shouldn’t be used in PvE for dps, it should be for support and anyone that has kited hands as an ele on Deimos will tell you overloads are very important, the protection and heals on water are invaluable.

You should be taking an elite line for 1 of 2 reasons. 1) The focus of the elite line aligns itself to the purpose of your build, support for tempest, damage/roaming for weaver. 2) It offers up a new way to play the class, overloads and AoE support for tempest, half and half attuning and combos with weaver.

All I’m hearing is you trying once again to justify changing weaver to be essentially core ele by messing around with the attunement swaps again which many have said are not the issue with weaver, the issue is the dual skills and stances being terrible. Stop pushing this agenda, if you don’t like it don’t use it but stop scraping every barrel and scrap for a reason to change something that doesn’t need changing.

@apharma.3741 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Carighan.6758 said:@Jski.6180 said:

Honestly the bigger problem is, as you mention, that many elite specs

don't take away

. Specs like the Weaver or the Mirage are by nature specialized elite specs because they remove an aspect of the base class. Which, frankly, is just healthier for a game overall.

@extremexhero.9178 said:The whole point of weaver is to weave attunements, if you want full swap take unravel. We can get a 95% cooldown reduction on attuning, there is no need for more, especially when you can reduce even further with elite stance.

Overloaded help the roll but most of the roll of tempest is being filled by its shouts for support. As tempest roll is support your providing a problem with the class by pointing out its dps from a support aimed class and why weaver needs to be fixed.

Tempest dose not need to overload when they do not want to on the same point weaver should not be focused into duel skills only most of the time due to there 3/5 swaps and not being given a chose of a full swap.

There is more wrong with tempest but the atuments swaps IS the core problem and any type of fix out side of that becomes pointless.

My agenda is to see staff ele viable in wvw this can be seen though dmg as in weaver (but the lack of being able to get right to your core 3ed skill and the speed of the duel skill comply puts a stop to that) and tempest who is support aimed and its still a viable condi clear class. Out side of that i am not sure what you think of what i want.

Tempest brings good dps. Can cc, can use protection,reflects, immobilize, heals and can switch between normal staff, FA staff, d/wh, d/sc depending on the situation. It can also be used to blast fields on demand while weaver has to attune properly in order to blast which is by all means not on demand. Tempest also gets stab and protection (-40% damage) on overloads while providing teamstunbreak with gale song. Air overload is still one of the best cleaving skills in the game which is essential in some situations.

Weaver in PvE is a one trick pony. DPS DPS DPS for days. U need big stationary targets, constant alacrity and lots of babysitting. When u start rotation u cant move for about 6-7sec while casting meteor and ice bow, u have zero cc unless u sacrifice a big chunk of your dps, no stab, no protection, no gale song to keep u alive when shit happens, no reflects etc etc u get the point.

Atm on 70% of the PvE content ill choose to play tempest. The other 30% are the occasions where u have the opportunity to unload your huge burst on bosses. Basically weaver gets amazing dps for a huge price. It is THE glass cannon.

@zoomborg.9462 said:Tempest brings good dps. Can cc, can use protection,reflects, immobilize, heals and can switch between normal staff, FA staff, d/wh, d/sc depending on the situation. It can also be used to blast fields on demand while weaver has to attune properly in order to blast which is by all means not on demand. Tempest also gets stab and protection (-40% damage) on overloads while providing teamstunbreak with gale song. Air overload is still one of the best cleaving skills in the game which is essential in some situations.

Weaver in PvE is a one trick pony. DPS DPS DPS for days. U need big stationary targets, constant alacrity and lots of babysitting. When u start rotation u cant move for about 6-7sec while casting meteor and ice bow, u have zero cc unless u sacrifice a big chunk of your dps, no stab, no protection, no gale song to keep u alive when kitten happens, no reflects etc etc u get the point.

Atm on 70% of the PvE content ill choose to play tempest. The other 30% are the occasions where u have the opportunity to unload your huge burst on bosses. Basically weaver gets amazing dps for a huge price. It is THE glass cannon.

I assume this is PVE?

Sword currently lacks the "cannon" part of the "Glass Cannon" in both PvE and WvW though. Hope that the buffs will solve this.

The tempest is good as it is. If anything has to change, it's the weaver.I played my ele as a weaver through the whole story of PoF and then switched back to tempest because I had barely as much fun with the weaver.My impression of the weaver is: Hop like a madman through the attunements and spam skill 3, try to integrate as many damage skills as possible in the rotation, done.I guess the weaver is somewhat celebrated for it's dps...against an immobile golem while a terminal gives you all the possible boons. You know, under fractal-/raid-conditions where a dedicated team is buffing an healing the dps-pumps above 90% so the scholar runes give 10% more damage.

In my opinion the weaver is waaaaay too focused around its own trait-line and its weaved skill on slot 3. The mechanic that you basically shove the attunements from mainhand to offhand with the next attunement feels somewhat clunky in my book.I've seen the idea of turning the unravel-utility into a F5-skill spooking through the forums, but for me that would be just as dull.My suggestion: Being able to switch the attunements on mainhand and offhand separately: F1-F4 switches the mainhand, while another four buttons switch the offhand. Also: mainhand and offhand get a separate cooldown for attuning.Maybe even expand on this with different effects from the attunements. I dunno, mainhand could add an effect to your attacks(mainhand water causes all your attacks to heal allies for example) while offhand attunements give you some passive effect. For example offhand water could share the effect from your mainhand attunement with your party, while offhand air causes a percentage of your damage value being pulled off breakbars.

@Jski.6180 said:Why dose it seem tempest is an elite spec that adds to core ele where weaver simply takes away.

This pretty much sums up the entire comparison of Tempest vs Weaver.Tempest adds some new advantages while Weaver doesn't exactly "only" take away, it does add the dual skills, which are interesting but not making up for what Weaver takes away - the flexibility.I'm not taking into account the traitlines since Weaver traitlines are striktly better then any other traitlines in the game dmg-wise (which is supposed to be a joke I assume, Weaver is not supposed to striktly do more damage, otherwise what was the point of adding a new mechanic that doesn't pay off unless you add those huge damage mods? )