Resource mechanics need to go and competitive gameplay will be better for it — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Resource mechanics need to go and competitive gameplay will be better for it

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 10, 2019 in WvW

I understand the team, long ago, wanted to make each profession as different as possible, but the resource mechanics need to be trashed. It makes gameplay on certain builds and professions unbalanced, not good and not fun inside of wvw or spvp.

You have thief with passive unlimited resource gain to where they can spam skills.

You have a slow casting Necro, with abysmally poor defense utilities and abysmally poor movement skills, and you force this profession to niggle with resources for survival and performance when other professions don’t.

Druid. It was supposed to be a good team healer, yet it’s not good at all for that role. A player on Druid fiddles around with a low quality damage and low quality healing staff to generate Astral force, just to access clunky and low quality heals for movement based combat. It’s super easy to shut down a Druid in Celestial Avatar form that it’s not even funny anymore. Druid healer doesn’t even play a role in wvw group play, but that’s what it was supposed to bring to the table...

When you’re sitting in the back of a zerg spamming hammer skills and running Facets, there’s no real complaint about Energy resources there. But go outside of the zerg to small scale and roaming and it’s like playing skill “whac-a-mole”. I use 1 skill and 3 disappear. I may need a skill I haven’t used prior, but now it’s gone, and 1 pops up that I don’t need at that moment.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but there is no balance to be had with these types of designs. This is what needs to be done... Yes, I know, a change would require other adjustments, but the team should start here and start caring about competitive balance for profession designs a bit more...

  • Thief- Get rid of Initiative and put skills on lower recharge timers.

  • Necro- Shrouds are now stances. Stances are maintained until downed or manually exited. That’s it.

  • Druid- Celestial Avatar form is now a stance. This stance is maintained until downed or manually exited. That’s it.

  • Revenant- No more energy mechanics. All skills function on recharge timer only. Facets, and a couple others, exist for a set duration of time.

Again, I know other adjustments need to be made for such changes, but we need to get this stuff under control and make improvements for all areas of the game.

<1

Comments

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    dood, lol. class balance issues are exactly that. if something is too strong or too weak, it can be looked at. it makes no sense to just scrap everything cuz things are unbalanced. zero logic in this proposal.

    Dood. Not sure if you’re aware, but balance starts at the foundation designs of a class system. It’s also pretty funny you saying not to “scrap everything cuz things are unbalanced”, because that’s exactly why things need to be redone.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the necro one will only work if you give it real defense skills based on your idea it means that the shroud will no longer shield your health which removes 50% of the necromancers defensive power and it literally will now only have conditions to defend itself which simply will not work in any competitive game mode.
    Also come up with a better skill type than stances lol necromancers are magically themed not monks. skill type classed as "shroud" would sound just fine.

  • Celestial avator form being a stance wouldn't work as from what i'm aware is Stances are skills from the Soulbeast Specialization, and Celestial Avator is a Druid Spec

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Druid is the only one on your list that I would actually agree with you on. I've been saying since PoF released that Photon Forge is a much better model of a resource-based transformation than Celestial Avatar form (although currently the risk factor is not punishing enough in PvP/WvW). I would like to see CA form modeled in a similar way. Druid is almost Renegade-tier performance and although you will see some successfully roam with it, it is because of traits (Druidic Clarity, Celestial Shadow, Ancient Seeds) and not because of the actual CA form. The spec needs a ton of attention; the things that make it meta in PvE have no relevance in PvP/WvW.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    No energy on rev and you will see all the skills go ×2 on the recharge or × .5 on the skill effects.

    You mean like every other profession?

    Yes?

    Why make it sound like,
    "Poor rev it so hard to manage energy!"
    When really it's apparently in your opinion,
    "Nerf rev moar!"

    Say what you mean

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2019

    @SoV.5139 said:
    GW2 is not balanced on sameness or homogenization philosophy. Its balanced on paper scissors rock philosophy.

    Balancing between evasive-dodgy-mobile-stealthy vs tanky-mitigation-recovery types never shakes out in homogenization based games anyhow. In the OPs thief vs necro example, there are lots of necro in WvW blobbing, but when one gets caught out in the open or gets separated from the group its basically a free bag. Even if the thief cant kill the necro due to a skill disparity, they can still run, and deny the necro a kill.

    What this means is the answer to getting ganked by thieves is not going to be gained through demanding necro buffs and thief nerfs on the forum, but by logging on the profession/build combo that smashes thieves.

    In the many games I have played, and the few I have worked on, people demand homogenization type balance until they get it, then complain about how boring the game has become nonstop.

    Gw2 professions aren’t balanced period. The devs have a hot mess on their hands, and finally 7 years later the team might be doing something about it. The original profession designs are part of that mess, but I’m not going to dig in to old design quote right now.

    So you must think Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, and Guardian are homogenized?

    I’m reading through this thread, and I’ve read many others, and most of what I see is people who don’t care about balance. And if some of you think resources are ultimate class defining things, then some of you are sorely mistaken. And I came from a game where the core designs were the same, yet had way more roles to play, more unique builds to play, more balance... and a heck of a lot of other stuff, so don’t think if things were changed that professions end up being homogenized. And some of y’all claim to want balance, yet those peeps don’t want to change anything really, besides some inconsequential numbers and stuff.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    I wish people would stop trying to get Necromancer's Shroud removed. I agree that it isn't the most well designed mechanic, and that numerous issues with it hold the class back in certain areas, but it isn't useless and it's far from defenseless.

    Maybe I'd be the only one, but if Necro Shroud were removed I'd be done with the class. I like what it is regardless of it's shortcomings and I'd rather see it improved than removed.

    What are you even talking about?

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    all skills, mechanics and weapons have been removed everybody get's to only autoattack using a stick as a weapon

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Permanent shroud uptime sounds like a fun time. I like having infinite health bars.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but there is no balance to be had with these types of designs. This is what needs to be done... Yes, I know, a change would require other adjustments, but the team should start here and start caring about competitive balance for profession designs a bit more...

    • Thief- Get rid of Initiative and put skills on lower recharge timers.

    • Necro- Shrouds are now stances. Stances are maintained until downed or manually exited. That’s it.

    • Druid- Celestial Avatar form is now a stance. This stance is maintained until downed or manually exited. That’s it.

    • Revenant- No more energy mechanics. All skills function on recharge timer only. Facets, and a couple others, exist for a set duration of time.

    Again, I know other adjustments need to be made for such changes, but we need to get this stuff under control and make improvements for all areas of the game.

    I came into this thread thinking it would be preposterous, but these are 100% solid suggestions. Great job, Swagger! You can be my dev any day!

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    I disagree so hard that I think we actually need the opposite, every class should have a mana mechanic. Right now it is so easy to just spam skills on every cooldown and win most fights this way, with only a mediocrum of counterplay. Many of the builds and playstyles that are possible in GW2 are not possible in other games because of something called mana management, which only applies to a few classes here.

    It's also the main beef that people have with GW2's gameplay versus GW1's.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, FA/EB (formerly JQ) | Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Terakura/Spellbreaker | ♀♥♀

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    ive come to believe most ppl are silent but they dont want things to be fully balanced. so they can overpower the other team.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • i would need more explanations of what is meant with necro not having defense possibilities?

    the necro fullfills high defense strength by kiting, boon corrupt, using fear and the shroud at the right time.
    we got 2 teleports which can be used in kombo or for safety or for quick escape to a higher grounded position.

    the key is kiting and loading lifeforce up again to go over into pressure attack on the enemy again. in a classical close combat barfight (block and burst) the necro is a easy target and im glad that it is this way. gw2 is a rather pokemon type of combat design. not every pokemon can fight the same way like the others.

    have a look at the necros skills and dont just think of attacking with them but how you can use it for defense. your problem is getting close combat burst, how will you counter that?

    i just started in spvp season and i have so much fun that my trend is spvp being my gamemode until christmas.

    i believe in this:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    I disagree so hard that I think we actually need the opposite, every class should have a mana mechanic. Right now it is so easy to just spam skills on every cooldown and win most fights this way, with only a mediocrum of counterplay. Many of the builds and playstyles that are possible in GW2 are not possible in other games because of something called mana management, which only applies to a few classes here.

    It's also the main beef that people have with GW2's gameplay versus GW1's.

    a sustained fight should be decided by whom used his resources best.

    And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'not today'.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svarty.8019 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but there is no balance to be had with these types of designs. This is what needs to be done... Yes, I know, a change would require other adjustments, but the team should start here and start caring about competitive balance for profession designs a bit more...

    • Thief- Get rid of Initiative and put skills on lower recharge timers.

    • Necro- Shrouds are now stances. Stances are maintained until downed or manually exited. That’s it.

    • Druid- Celestial Avatar form is now a stance. This stance is maintained until downed or manually exited. That’s it.

    • Revenant- No more energy mechanics. All skills function on recharge timer only. Facets, and a couple others, exist for a set duration of time.

    Again, I know other adjustments need to be made for such changes, but we need to get this stuff under control and make improvements for all areas of the game.

    I came into this thread thinking it would be preposterous, but these are 100% solid suggestions. Great job, Swagger! You can be my dev any day!

    pay swagger money

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • I can certainly see where Swagger is comming from with this argument, I think it is a fair discussion to at least open up and talk about. I'm on the fence of it myself, because as noted it really is a question of balance versus variety. A game does not have to become stale if you streamline mechanics more (not entirely, necessarily). At the same time, with a few notable exceptions GW2 has mostly handled these issues pretty well throughout the years.

    If anything, I would be more inclined to adress another but similar leftover from vanilla and that is stat holes. With all the new specialisations comming in it feels like stat holes have really played out their role (and why Anet are reintroducing them to some specs is a bit mind boggling). They have always locked down (only) some classes into specific stats and more with recent additions of specs there have come to be glaring balance issues with stat totals where certain classes not only can choose alot more freely between how they want to build but also seems to come out with good margins regardless how they build whereas other classes are not only locked down to certain combinations through bases to cover (or restricted to highly gimmicked builds if not) but also seems to have constant stat-deficiencies no matter how they build which makes them even more boring to build around and even more restricted to picking up very stat-generous gear. Where you, for example, in the past may have been forced to juggle between, let's say, vitality and toughness to find a middle ground, classes with that deficiency now just seems to perform better on celestial no matter what you want want to do with them. So, even their somewhat gimmicked builds are restricted. That's pretty dull.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    @SoV.5139 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @SoV.5139 said:
    GW2 is not balanced on sameness or homogenization philosophy. Its balanced on paper scissors rock philosophy.

    Balancing between evasive-dodgy-mobile-stealthy vs tanky-mitigation-recovery types never shakes out in homogenization based games anyhow. In the OPs thief vs necro example, there are lots of necro in WvW blobbing, but when one gets caught out in the open or gets separated from the group its basically a free bag. Even if the thief cant kill the necro due to a skill disparity, they can still run, and deny the necro a kill.

    What this means is the answer to getting ganked by thieves is not going to be gained through demanding necro buffs and thief nerfs on the forum, but by logging on the profession/build combo that smashes thieves.

    In the many games I have played, and the few I have worked on, people demand homogenization type balance until they get it, then complain about how boring the game has become nonstop.

    Gw2 professions aren’t balanced period. The devs have a hot mess on their hands, and finally 7 years later the team might be doing something about it. The original profession designs are part of that mess, but I’m not going to dig in to old design quote right now.

    So you must think Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, and Guardian are homogenized?

    I’m reading through this thread, and I’ve read many others, and most of what I see is people who don’t care about balance. And if some of you think resources are ultimate class defining things, then some of you are sorely mistaken. And I came from a game where the core designs were the same, yet had way more roles to play, more unique builds to play, more balance... and a heck of a lot of other stuff, so don’t think if things were changed that professions end up being homogenized. And some of y’all claim to want balance, yet those peeps don’t want to change anything really, besides some inconsequential numbers and stuff.

    No.

    What I am saying is:

    The game is balanced on hard counters. Your reply indicates a lack of understanding of what this even is. Furthermore it attempts to misrepresent what I posted. Having no answer for my post, the OP create a weaker position then attack that instead.

    The OP is asking for homogenization. Sometimes called "fairness balance" - and in every single game I have seen go down that road, once the game is homogenized the same audience who demanded it hand over fist now complains that it sucks because the game is now boring.

    GW2/ANet/NCsoft, please do not listen to the calls for homogenization or fairness balance. Keep striving for hard counter balance, or paper/scissors/rock balance. Uniqueness is far more important than fairness, as long as hard counters and counter play exist. Simply adjust for where these do not exist or too much of it exists. Tweak the current system rather than reinvent the wheel.

    As I correctly stated, you are the type of player who doesn’t want balance.

    I like how you avoided the question btw. It’s because you know they aren’t homogenized, and you can’t argue otherwise.

    So if we follow your lead, I want my next engineer elite to be like Ironman, with a nanotech suit, so I can fly around wvw and spvp and pew pew players! And in the event that I cross a group, I also want this spec to summon a robotic Ironman AI army to fight back! That will be unique!

    Oh, and since you like “hard counters” and “rock, paper, scissors“ balance, then this Ironman engineer should be able to fly at heights of 1,800 feet, so a LB Ranger is designated as the “hard counter”. Is that good for you?

  • Lalary.3561Lalary.3561 Member ✭✭
    edited November 25, 2019

    Funny coming from a ranger player. How about a bit of nerf to boonbeast? Do you seriously believe scraping the core designs of the classes just to suit your interest will make this game more balanced? That worked out so well when Anet gave a new spin on Chrono right?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SoV.5139

    You’re apparently not aware that most games use, and used, the same core mechanics, energy/endurance systems, and such, for class designs that developers built characters around as the foundation. You don’t have class designs like GW2 in other mmo games, and for good reason, because it throws balance out the window. And the balance in GW2 is not good at all, and has never been good period.

    Read...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2019

    @SoV.5139

    Also...

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing

    https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

    “ Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

    Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

    As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is kitten combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @SoV.5139

    Also...

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing

    https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

    “ Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

    Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

    As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is kitten combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

    Sadly. Bad encounter design leads to the lack of crowd control/buffing classes. Blaming only classes isn't the whole picture. When all the MMOs make damage sponges with scripted events for their primitive ai don't expect a lot of class variation (even in the "trinity"). The current game has the combo system that could have been better utilized when it comes to competitive but instead classes get 1 press to gain advantage/impose disadvantage. Comparing GW2 to their predecessor each skill in the older game did less on its own, whereas trail of anguish does so much at once in GW2. I wouldn't hold my breath for them changing this any time soon.

    I will say that chill needs to affect thieve's initiative skills in some way. It seems an oversight that they're the least impacted by that conditional effect of recharge-time slowing. Unless I'm not noticing something...

    D:

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • This'll be another letter to Santa kind of thread. Zero chance of Anet doing any ground up changes. On top of that, does anyone believe if they did, that it would somehow 'this time' be this mythical balance everyone is looking for.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2019

    I understand the team, long ago, wanted to make each profession as different as possible, but any distinction between the available builds needs to be trashed. It makes gameplay on certain builds and professions inbalanced, not good and not fun inside of wvw or spvp.

    I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but there is no balance to be had with these types of designs. This is what needs to be done... Yes, I know, a change would require other adjustments, but the team should start here and start caring about competitive balance a bit more...

    -Classes -get rid of them, unless everyone plays the same class and build, balance between them is literally impossible.

    -Weapons -make the sword the only available weapon in the game. If people can pick different weapons, they can be more suited for certain situations, which promotes different playstyles and kills balance similarly to the presence of multiple classes. No dual wielding, 3 weapon skills are enough, much easier to balance and the fights should last much longer, so much fun!
    -Weapon swap -there's only one weapon available and it would cut the cds on weapon skills, which is the opposite of what we want. Remove.

    -Specs/traits -remove them from the game. Just like weapons, ability to pick traits (even within one class -remember we're deleting the rest of them) that are superior to others in certain situations breeds imbalance and ability to abuse that mechanic. As long as we don't know EXACTLY what our enemy plays, we can't speak about balance and truly fair competitive gameplay.

    -Attributes/stat choice -just like anything mentioned above: variety = different roles and playstyle = imbalance = mandatory removal from the game. I'm not sure if we should only leave base stats (which would make fights longer = better, win-win!!), leave one available (but not berk, that's too much dmg and we won't have precision in the game anyways -more about that below) or roll a new one each season, need some thoughts on this one.

    -Anything "chance-based", whether it's crit, trait activation, condi application or anything else -definitely needs to go. If we want a truly balanced competitive gameplay, we can't rely on rng, there's no skill in that and it's just not fair. Adjust to 100% or remove completely.

    Again, I know other adjustments might need to be made for such changes, but I'm sure now we're getting on the right track.

  • @SoV.5139 said:
    GW2 is not balanced on sameness or homogenization philosophy. Its balanced on paper scissors rock philosophy.

    Balancing between evasive-dodgy-mobile-stealthy vs tanky-mitigation-recovery types never shakes out in homogenization based games anyhow. In the OPs thief vs necro example, there are lots of necro in WvW blobbing, but when one gets caught out in the open or gets separated from the group its basically a free bag. Even if the thief cant kill the necro due to a skill disparity, they can still run, and deny the necro a kill.

    What this means is the answer to getting ganked by thieves is not going to be gained through demanding necro buffs and thief nerfs on the forum, but by logging on the profession/build combo that smashes thieves.

    In the many games I have played, and the few I have worked on, people demand homogenization type balance until they get it, then complain about how boring the game has become nonstop.

    Preach it!

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ran online clan wars capture works with no resource. could be worth it

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    Why not boost vanilla specs already. I would think that most of people have already bought expansions and are already sicken tired playing these stupid expansions specs.

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Sobx.1758 Judging by your reply, it seems like you don’t understand what a change like this means. You should think about this more before your next post.

    Feel free to explain it to me if you really think I misunderstood anything here.
    ...unless you just didn't understand what changes proposed in my post mean, so that's actually all you had to say about my great balancing idea.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    I don’t think some of you understand this topic much and just prefer to throw out meaningless comments.

    If you’re trying to argue that having classes use the same design of individual skill recharges, and canning the resource mechanics, makes profession all the exact same, then by that token, Warrior, Ranger (with the exception of Druid), Mesmer, Engineer, Elementalist and Guardian are all exactly the same class, with the same weapon and slot skills and traits...

    And if you are making the above argument, then the thousands of games that used, and use, baseline foundational designs for classes before GW2, must all have had the exact same classes with different names. And that’s a very poor argument to make, and one that shows the lack of understanding when it comes to class designs and mechanics in mmo games such as this.

    And I already cited a game that had the exact same foundation mechanics, and more, but had way more unique classes, builds, roles to play and skills to use than in GW2. If some of you had bothered to read, as opposed to making certain comments, then some may have learned something.

    Also, I do find it really interesting that some of you want the devs to balance the game, and do more with professions, yet some of y’all can’t even see the root causes of problems. Some of you can’t even recognize all the pve designs, that only work in pve, that we have to use inside of spvp and wvw.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @SoV.5139

    You’re apparently not aware that most games use, and used, the same core mechanics, energy/endurance systems, and such, for class designs that developers built characters around as the foundation. You don’t have class designs like GW2 in other mmo games, and for good reason, because it throws balance out the window. And the balance in GW2 is not good at all, and has never been good period.

    Read...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    See, here is the funny thing. Most games in fact dont use the same core mechanics on every character and class. Pretty much all use alternative resource systems, or resource systems when characters normally dont have them. And you in fact do have class designs like GW2 in a lot (if not most) MMOs. WoW uses mana for most characters, but then you have rogues with energy and combo points, Hunters with Focus and Death Knights with Runes. In FFXIV, every class has some kind of unique meter. BnS uses different forms of energy, TERA uses different forms of energy, and various smaller ones do too. The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @SoV.5139

    You’re apparently not aware that most games use, and used, the same core mechanics, energy/endurance systems, and such, for class designs that developers built characters around as the foundation. You don’t have class designs like GW2 in other mmo games, and for good reason, because it throws balance out the window. And the balance in GW2 is not good at all, and has never been good period.

    Read...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    See, here is the funny thing. Most games in fact dont use the same core mechanics on every character and class. Pretty much all use alternative resource systems, or resource systems when characters normally dont have them. And you in fact do have class designs like GW2 in a lot (if not most) MMOs. WoW uses mana for most characters, but then you have rogues with energy and combo points, Hunters with Focus and Death Knights with Runes. In FFXIV, every class has some kind of unique meter. BnS uses different forms of energy, TERA uses different forms of energy, and various smaller ones do too. The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    So basically you’re agreeing with my premise.

    It doesn’t matter if wow has all different resources, it’s the fact that all classes are built around resource use. There are games that have the extract same action resource and use global cooldown between skill use, but it’s still a common core design. Some games use the same energy system, but have skills on use without a global timer between skill use... Same foundations are used.

    And some on this thread are making the argument that if all professions used recharge timers for skills only, then everything becomes the exact same. And by that thought process, if Anet were to lower all skill timers and introduced a common skill resource, some players would still argue that everything is exactly the same. Like all skills and traits lose individuality, so there wouldn’t be unique variation between things like a staff thief or staff guardian or staff revenant or staff ele or staff necro or staff druid... nope it would all be the exact same... Yeah, poor argument to make.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in wvw all toons should have the same available wvw skills and weapons.

    but you can only choose a combination to specialize.

    this way no more profession shaming.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    in wvw all toons should have the same available wvw skills and weapons.

    but you can only choose a combination to specialize.

    this way no more profession shaming.

    Sounds good but than u'd be see alot of post saying this skill combo's OP or this weapon set is OP etc etc as everyone can run the builds they complain about right now but they choose to play classes they like instead which is good. Ud literally have to have all classes be one class basically,same dps on all skills,same range,durations on effects and same utility skills,only different skins if u wanted real balance. This is literally everyone would uninstall the game as soon as that happened as it become a really boring experience with lack of identity through the classes.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 There are many facets and areas that contribute to a less or more balanced game, and this resource topic is one of them. No one rational expects a perfect state of balance, but better balance can be had here, so stick to discussions of actual words I used if you are going to quote me, not assumptions or fake imaginary quotes I never wrote.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Sobx.1758 There are many facets and areas that contribute to a less or more balanced game, and this resource topic is one of them. No one rational expects a perfect state of balance, but better balance can be had here, so stick to discussions of actual words I used if you are going to quote me, not assumptions or fake imaginary quotes I never wrote.

    Classes with resources are balanced with consideration of their more-or-less-unique mechanics, if you think they'd just remove resources, add cds to skills and be done with it then... ooh. The whole initial premise of this thread is inherently wrong and your proposed changes solve nothing with potential of creating a bigger clusterkitten, what exactly can't you understand here?

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Sobx.1758 There are many facets and areas that contribute to a less or more balanced game, and this resource topic is one of them. No one rational expects a perfect state of balance, but better balance can be had here, so stick to discussions of actual words I used if you are going to quote me, not assumptions or fake imaginary quotes I never wrote.

    Classes with resources are balanced with consideration of their more-or-less-unique mechanics, if you think they'd just remove resources, add cds to skills and be done with it then... ooh. The whole initial premise of this thread is inherently wrong and your proposed changes solve nothing with potential of creating a bigger clusterkitten, what exactly can't you understand here?

    From my original post, that you are conveniently missing...

    “Again, I know other adjustments need to be made for such changes, but we need to get this stuff under control and make improvements for all areas of the game.”

    And there are a plethora of topics I’ve brought up about balancing in different areas, so stop making assumptions.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Sobx.1758 There are many facets and areas that contribute to a less or more balanced game, and this resource topic is one of them. No one rational expects a perfect state of balance, but better balance can be had here, so stick to discussions of actual words I used if you are going to quote me, not assumptions or fake imaginary quotes I never wrote.

    Classes with resources are balanced with consideration of their more-or-less-unique mechanics, if you think they'd just remove resources, add cds to skills and be done with it then... ooh. The whole initial premise of this thread is inherently wrong and your proposed changes solve nothing with potential of creating a bigger clusterkitten, what exactly can't you understand here?

    From my original post, that you are conveniently missing...

    “Again, I know other adjustments need to be made for such changes, but we need to get this stuff under control and make improvements for all areas of the game.”

    And there are a plethora of topics I’ve brought up about balancing in different areas, so stop making assumptions.

    So you agree that your proposed changes are pointless, not well thought out (if at all) and solve nothing. Cool.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Your assumptions aren’t really making your arguments stronger. If you’re going to quote and reply then at least try to understand. My comments were clear, and you literally just quote me, but you’re not absorbing anything, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Your assumptions aren’t really making your arguments stronger. If you’re going to quote and reply then at least try to understand. My comments were clear, and you literally just quote me, but you’re not absorbing anything, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    These are not assumptions, these are facts and you confirmed what I said.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Your assumptions aren’t really making your arguments stronger. If you’re going to quote and reply then at least try to understand. My comments were clear, and you literally just quote me, but you’re not absorbing anything, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    These are not assumptions, these are facts and you confirmed what I said.

    This was your comment I was replying to...

    "if you think they'd just remove resources, add cds to skills and be done with it then..."

    Any rational person knows that there are obviously other changes that would need to be made to accommodate that. That's a given, as with most any suggestion placed on these forums. Likewise, there are many areas to game balance, but this is merely one topic about a particular area for core balance, that has a specific goal in mind and purpose for the bigger balance picture. You are obviously not aware of this, and instead prefer to counter with parody replies, along with assumption and fake quotes.

    You obviously don't understand the suggestion or topic, but if you actually want to take in what's been written, and bring a rational counter argument to the discussion, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, there isn't much to constructively talk about given your replies.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 1, 2019

    Oh no, better nerf initiative. Those 40 sized thief zergs are definitely a menace to wvw.

    Also I hope you know Rev skills come with cooldowns too.... The energy serves to further limit skill spam. I don't think you should be making balance changes for classes you haven't actually played.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Your assumptions aren’t really making your arguments stronger. If you’re going to quote and reply then at least try to understand. My comments were clear, and you literally just quote me, but you’re not absorbing anything, you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    These are not assumptions, these are facts and you confirmed what I said.

    This was your comment I was replying to...

    "if you think they'd just remove resources, add cds to skills and be done with it then..."

    Any rational person knows that there are obviously other changes that would need to be made to accommodate that. That's a given, as with most any suggestion placed on these forums. Likewise, there are many areas to game balance, but this is merely one topic about a particular area for core balance, that has a specific goal in mind and purpose for the bigger balance picture. You are obviously not aware of this, and instead prefer to counter with parody replies, along with assumption and fake quotes.

    You obviously don't understand the suggestion or topic, but if you actually want to take in what's been written, and bring a rational counter argument to the discussion, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, there isn't much to constructively talk about given your replies.

    I obviously do understand the suggestion of the topic and as I already said multiple times: it doesn't solve anything and can crreate more issues with the class you'd want to change. All you have to answer is "I know it's not a good solution but you don't understaaaaaand!". Nope, again, I do understand what I read, I do understand that you came up with some terrible idea and broadly use some "balance" claims as a smokescreen to force it through (which obviously and luckily will never succeed btw) and you saying that "it would need more work" doesn't change anything. At this point, your idea is inherently flawed and you literally keep admitting it. Come back with a thread like that when you have a valid idea instead of... this.

    Also... What "false quotes"? What "assumptions"?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @SoV.5139

    You’re apparently not aware that most games use, and used, the same core mechanics, energy/endurance systems, and such, for class designs that developers built characters around as the foundation. You don’t have class designs like GW2 in other mmo games, and for good reason, because it throws balance out the window. And the balance in GW2 is not good at all, and has never been good period.

    Read...

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    See, here is the funny thing. Most games in fact dont use the same core mechanics on every character and class. Pretty much all use alternative resource systems, or resource systems when characters normally dont have them. And you in fact do have class designs like GW2 in a lot (if not most) MMOs. WoW uses mana for most characters, but then you have rogues with energy and combo points, Hunters with Focus and Death Knights with Runes. In FFXIV, every class has some kind of unique meter. BnS uses different forms of energy, TERA uses different forms of energy, and various smaller ones do too. The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    So basically you’re agreeing with my premise.

    It doesn’t matter if wow has all different resources, it’s the fact that all classes are built around resource use. There are games that have the extract same action resource and use global cooldown between skill use, but it’s still a common core design. Some games use the same energy system, but have skills on use without a global timer between skill use... Same foundations are used.

    And some on this thread are making the argument that if all professions used recharge timers for skills only, then everything becomes the exact same. And by that thought process, if Anet were to lower all skill timers and introduced a common skill resource, some players would still argue that everything is exactly the same. Like all skills and traits lose individuality, so there wouldn’t be unique variation between things like a staff thief or staff guardian or staff revenant or staff ele or staff necro or staff druid... nope it would all be the exact same... Yeah, poor argument to make.

    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

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