Resource mechanics need to go and competitive gameplay will be better for it - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Resource mechanics need to go and competitive gameplay will be better for it

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  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    in wvw all toons should have the same available wvw skills and weapons.

    but you can only choose a combination to specialize.

    this way no more profession shaming.

    Sounds good but than u'd be see alot of post saying this skill combo's OP or this weapon set is OP etc etc as everyone can run the builds they complain about right now but they choose to play classes they like instead which is good. Ud literally have to have all classes be one class basically,same dps on all skills,same range,durations on effects and same utility skills,only different skins if u wanted real balance. This is literally everyone would uninstall the game as soon as that happened as it become a really boring experience with lack of identity through the classes.

    we dont know that. it hasnt happened yet. and final fantasy is doing it and its still strong.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2019

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    in wvw all toons should have the same available wvw skills and weapons.

    but you can only choose a combination to specialize.

    this way no more profession shaming.

    Sounds good but than u'd be see alot of post saying this skill combo's OP or this weapon set is OP etc etc as everyone can run the builds they complain about right now but they choose to play classes they like instead which is good. Ud literally have to have all classes be one class basically,same dps on all skills,same range,durations on effects and same utility skills,only different skins if u wanted real balance. This is literally everyone would uninstall the game as soon as that happened as it become a really boring experience with lack of identity through the classes.

    we dont know that. it hasnt happened yet. and final fantasy is doing it and its still strong.

    I'm not saying it isn't a good method I'm just saying wont change poor balancing as op skills and builds are OP whether one class has it or all. Cheese is cheese and without proper balancing I'd still end up the winner is who out cheesed the other just like how gw2 is right now lol. If the balancing is poor now that wouldn't change it.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    in wvw all toons should have the same available wvw skills and weapons.

    but you can only choose a combination to specialize.

    this way no more profession shaming.

    Sounds good but than u'd be see alot of post saying this skill combo's OP or this weapon set is OP etc etc as everyone can run the builds they complain about right now but they choose to play classes they like instead which is good. Ud literally have to have all classes be one class basically,same dps on all skills,same range,durations on effects and same utility skills,only different skins if u wanted real balance. This is literally everyone would uninstall the game as soon as that happened as it become a really boring experience with lack of identity through the classes.

    we dont know that. it hasnt happened yet. and final fantasy is doing it and its still strong.

    I'm not saying it isn't a good method I'm just saying wont change poor balancing as op skills and builds are OP whether one class has it or all. Cheese is cheese and without proper balancing I'd still end up the winner is who out cheesed the other just like how gw2 is right now lol. If the balancing is poor now that wouldn't change it.

    actually it can be balanced if everyone has it all. and nerfs buffs can change the tide every now and then.

    right now, there is also one more factor at play. not everyone is good.

    ideally everyone knows how to play but i.e. ppl below tier 2 are generally bad at team work if individually are not bad.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing... And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Finally the devs are paying real attention to professions in the game, and resources should be another area for evaluation. And the original designs of the game have proven their major flaws, so you should start realizing that.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing...

    GW2 isn't "other games", so nobody cares what "other games" can and can't do. How is this even an argument. You idea is bad, you agreed with that statement, changed nothing and yet you're still arguing about something here for the sake of arguing.

    And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Wrong.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing...

    GW2 isn't "other games", so nobody cares what "other games" can and can't do. How is this even an argument. You idea is bad, you agreed with that statement, changed nothing and yet you're still arguing about something here for the sake of arguing.

    And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Wrong.

    Yet again you show lack of understanding of this topic and of the game...

    Yeah, "wrong" lol... "Jon P: For whatever reason we came up with the initiative mechanic, we were like “this is cool, put it on thief!” Design thief skills: “Oh yeah, they should have these dual skills!” We put them in the game, people played them and were instantly like “thieves are the most fun thing in the game now!”

    Next you're going to tell me that Anet primarily designed professions to be balanced against one another, as opposed to profession difficulty scaling instead.... Let me guess, you also think pvp combat is what professions, elites, and stuff like stealth and the condition system were primarily designed for? You must also think that potential changes to balance professions better for pvp modes haven't been made because the game has been so well balanced, not to avoid screwing over the pve side of the game?

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    GW2 isn't "other games", so nobody cares what "other games" can and can't do.

    I think this comment is more important than one first might imagine.
    This thread has taken a turn for the worse and the tone isn't very constructive anymore (though, forums, noise, I get it). However in all this talk about what kind of balance or systemic design that GW2 has the answer is pretty obvious: It has GW2's design and most people who still play the game do it because of the design that GW2 has (or had). It is fine to discuss issues that revolve around specialist energy mechanics. That is a fair discussion. If the entire discussion turns into a debate about trinity systems or rock-paper systems however you are discussing something that isn't GW2 and things that would make GW2 not GW2 if introduced.

    What GW2 is, is not that hard to deduce. It's a game that has always been primarily balanced around party scale (5). The further out you go from there the more balance issues have appeared. It is also a system where everyone has always been a damage dealer + something else; meaning that originally no one simply had a role as a damage dealer. Instead everyone was different kinds of damage dealers combined with something else. Damage dealing was, in fact, just like that article discusses about oldschool trinity something that had a backseat role in GW2. It is something everyone did but something no one really identified as. Even among classes that were, for example, focus damage dealers, the notable aspect was the focus and not the damage.

    There are so many people, with oppinions, who do not spend enough time thinking, reading and making arguments these days that there is so much noise now that it's easy to lose track of how GW2's systems work(ed) and how that was good. For example, there is noise from all kinds of directions now about the downstate system. Few people stop to consider how integral that system is to what makes GW2, GW2. It's not just under fire from people who want the no-downstate week but from how the game is moving from player-ressing to ability-ressing now for example. That is, in fact, a quite controversial change but few people are paying attention to it or are voicing caution to the developers how it is an important piece laid out next to other pieces in the balance.

    Not to sound too conservative but there is quite alot of gains to be made from simply looking at vanilla. It doesn't have to be the same, but it can surely be a primary source of inspiration because with all the pieces of puzzle on the table, that is what the game was originally built for and there are going to be old systems that new systems need to be able to talk to and translate into something good.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing...

    GW2 isn't "other games", so nobody cares what "other games" can and can't do. How is this even an argument. You idea is bad, you agreed with that statement, changed nothing and yet you're still arguing about something here for the sake of arguing.

    And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Wrong.

    Yet again you show lack of understanding of this topic and of the game...

    In what way? Both topic and the game, obviously.

    Yeah, "wrong" lol... "Jon P: For whatever reason we came up with the initiative mechanic, we were like “this is cool, put it on thief!” Design thief skills: “Oh yeah, they should have these dual skills!” We put them in the game, people played them and were instantly like “thieves are the most fun thing in the game now!”

    That doesn't mean they aren't supposed to be balanced, it's easy to guess that a lot of things existing in a game -ANY game- is implemented because it's "cool"/"fun"/"call it however else you want, who cares", because otherwise nobody would play it. How is this quote/claim even showing anything regarding the balance?

    Next you're going to tell me that Anet primarily designed professions to be balanced against one another, as opposed to profession difficulty scaling instead.... Let me guess, you also think pvp combat is what professions, elites, and stuff like stealth and the condition system were primarily designed for? You must also think that potential changes to balance professions better for pvp modes haven't been made because the game has been so well balanced, not to avoid screwing over the pve side of the game?

    lmao, what are you even talking about and where exactly did that come from? Feel free to quote me while explaining, because that makes absolutely no sense, gj. :DDon't forget about the post where I literally said that if you want true balance, you'd need to remove the class system. Great effort at ridiculing, though -maybe next time you'll do better.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing... And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Finally the devs are paying real attention to professions in the game, and resources should be another area for evaluation. And the original designs of the game have proven their major flaws, so you should start realizing that.

    Your point being? The fact that WoW chooses to not have any resource-less classes (Caveat: Mana classes tend to just be resource-less effectively, so they do) doesnt change the fact that different classes have different gates for their skills. Thats good game design.

    Yes, the majority of video games have common core designs. Having different resource systems, including optionally resource-less (I.e. only cooldown gated) ones is one of those "common core designs". Thats the part you dont get. You think GW2 is some special case, while in reality, its the norm. And what you are proposing? That would be the special case.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2019

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing... And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Finally the devs are paying real attention to professions in the game, and resources should be another area for evaluation. And the original designs of the game have proven their major flaws, so you should start realizing that.

    Your point being? The fact that WoW chooses to not have any resource-less classes (Caveat: Mana classes tend to just be resource-less effectively, so they do) doesnt change the fact that different classes have different gates for their skills. Thats good game design.

    Yes, the majority of video games have common core designs. Having different resource systems, including optionally resource-less (I.e. only cooldown gated) ones is one of those "common core designs". Thats the part you dont get. You think GW2 is some special case, while in reality, its the norm. And what you are proposing? That would be the special case.

    Point being your claim about things becoming the same are factually false. How many games do I need to bring up so you can understand?

    I want you to tell me how many times this necro was able to use their class mechanic to a meaningful degree in this video... Go ahead and count...

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    @Sobx.1758 "lmao, what are you even talking about and where exactly did that come from?" You really don't understand the purpose of that paragraph? Really?

    That paragraph makes no sense and implies I might think something that I literally already contradicted.
    And pretty sure I do understand the purpose of that paragraph: it's an attempt to ridicule me despite anything I said before, because you have nothing to answer. Too bad it failed and now, again, you have nothing to say about it, so instead you wrote... this, whatever it's supposed to be.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    The only ones I can think of that dont use alternative resources at all are ESO and BDO.

    actually BDO does use alternative resources - Mana, Stamina and Willpower if memory serves. Every class there has only one of these and have different ways to manage that resource.

    EDIT: and even if one tried to pull it under "but it's same mechanic just with different colour", One - the methods of managing said resources can vary to the point where it isn't really, Two - it still doesn't make BDO any more balanced than GW2 is - I'd even argue it's balancing is a much worse clusterduck.

    I stand corrected then. I hadnt really played BDO much, so I may have just hit several classes using the same resource.> @Swagger.1459 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:
    And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns. Also, to go back to WoW, the truth is that in a lot of scenarios, most of the classes might as well not have resources. Its difficult to run out of mana in any half-decent rotation. So you have the same effectively resourceless system as GW2, and then you have Rogues who are in fact heavily reliant on their resources. And again, thats just WoW. To put it bluntly, your idea of what the average MMO is, or the average, the idea of "foundations", applies to the vast minority of MMOs. The majority of MMOs follow a design similiar to that of GW2. Youre simply out of touch with how MMOs, or games, are designed.

    The point is less "everything becomes the same" and more "you lose a lot of diversity and design space for absolutely no good reason at all". Having more levers to pull doesnt make balancing harder, it makes it easier. The fact that GW2s balance isnt exactly idea doesnt change that. For that matter, do you understand what your idea would do? Thief would be essentially deleted and replaced by an entirely new class. And I dont even mean that as an exaggeration. You literally have to delete all of the skills and make new ones. Because the skills thief has arent compatible with a cooldown system. This isnt even just creating a new class, its creating a new class while trying to maintain some semblance of the old one. Which is to say nothing of the fact that you will have difficulty making the new thiefs playstyle distinct from Mesmers and Revenants.

    To put it bluntly, usually bad ideas at least have a salvageable core. Yours does not. There is nothing salvageable in here. Hence why it should never even be considered, and why it wont ever be considered.

    "And GW2 is built around a resource use. That resource being cooldowns."... Do we play the same game here? So Thief, Rev, Necro Shroud and Druid CA are all about cooldown? No they are not, hence this thread.

    Edit- And nice deflection away from the fact that wow (and the plethora of other mmos) has a resource for every class, but they are still unique, not the same, classes built around a common resource design.

    To put bluntly, you are wrong, or you don't have a lot of experience with mmos… Read and pay attention...

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    This is something I want to add to the conversation, and it has to do with profession difficulty scaling and imbalances by design...

    I completely understand the reasoning behind certain profession design choices, but the way it was done has created unnecessarily imbalances between profession inside of wvw and spvp modes...

    http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic

    Jon P: yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him."

    That statement by Jon P clearly shows you can have common simplified mechanics and designs across all profession, while still producing highly skilled players and combat gameplay... A GW2 Warrior is straight forward, and the main focus is on mastering weapons, skills, positioning... Meanwhile, for example, the team made the main focus of learning to master Elementalist about fighting without a 2nd weapon and imposing a disadvantageous choice between being melee, mid range or long range during combat... on top of Attunement swapping PLUS needing to also master weapons, skills, positioning... The main focus of Revenant is learning to micromanage Energy and swapping legends, on top of other areas just mentioned...

    As stated in the op, yeah, sure things are unique, but it was unnecessary to force in these unbalanced designs knowing simple is "cleaner" and still requires skill to perform at higher levels. And I dare to say that the team knew there would be more balance between profession performance with simpler designs and common mechanics across all professions, but opted out in favor of "has to be different first" as mentioned in my op.

    By comparison, City of Heroes made distinct and unique classes, powersets and roles, but still managed to make things more balanced... How so Swagger?

    ALL of these classes https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetypes used https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Endurance as the main skill resource.

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Power_Pools

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ancillary_Power_Pools or https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patron_Power_Pools that "The powers in these pools are selected from other Archetypes, and are designed to give each Archetype access to types of abilities that they do not normally have: holds and ranged attacks for melee Archetypes, armors for ranged Archetypes, etc."

    ALL classes had access to https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Inspirations and could slot up to 20 of them... 20 instant and on demand "potions" at any given time!

    So we need to ask ourselves how a game that allowed players to play unique classes and powersets still offered the exact same core mechanics across the board? How was that team able to give ALL characters access to optional things like invisibility, flight, super speed, teleporting, personal healing, "stun breaks", KB protection, damage skills... while still offering a huge palate of unique classes, skills and roles to play? Yet GW2...

    Also a quote from that interview...

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."... And so was City of Heroes. All classes had offensive skills to choose from, yet each still offered players many fun, and viable, roles to play. This is not so true with GW2 as it stands because those role choices, weapons, skills, traits... are very limited in pvp and wvw by comparison...

    I will try to look up the quote, but IIRC... Arenanet always planned on creating GW2 to be E-Sports competitive, yet there was way too much focus on unique and different core mechanics that forced these extreme imbalances... that we still have today. That's why E-Sports didn't hold, and that why you see all these major class complaints from players participating in spvp and wvw… The majority want fun, balance and viable options first, not scaling profession difficulty and forced imbalances that make hard designed rock- paper-scissors combat scenarios and limited viable build options...

    Gonna stop here...GW2 is a great game, but I feel things need to further evolve away from these old design concepts and ways of thinking that I'm quoting below... And more players would be accepting if the team made greater strides towards having professions more balanced at the core and mechanics levels... And I don't see negativity coming from players if roles, such as healing and support, were made better than what we have been given up to this point, and if the team really looked to creating optional skills that balanced out classes better... just like CoH did with great success.

    "Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up."

    "Jon P: The whole game is built very offensively on purpose."

    "Jon P: When we actually made the decision to not have healers"

    "Jon P: I use this example all the time – in Guild Wars 1 the Shadow Step ability on assassins. If only assassins could have done that, they would have been this very, very unique class; but as soon as we introduced secondary professions everyone could shadow step. Monks are shadow stepping, warriors are shadow stepping, and assassins as a result weren’t as ‘cool’ as they could have been. They didn’t fulfill that sneaky archetype in the way they really could have, because everyone could do what they could do."

    And in WoW, Rogues, Monks, Hunters and Death Knights arent gated by mana. They have different resources. Having different resources is fine. Every MMO except ESO (apparently even BDO uses different resources) has different resources.

    And every class in GW2 has a resource. The nature of the resources however is different. The classes are unique in no small part due to the fact that many of them have very different resources. The only one wrong and inexperienced in MMOs here is you.

    What you are not processing is that all classes in wow use cooldown for skills and resources. Gw2 uses cool downs, but resources only on some professions and especs... Or are you not aware of this fact?

    Your argument is like saying if wow removed all the resource mechanics from the game, and off of every class, then classes would be homogenized... And that’s an argument you’re making here, and it’s obviously false or you just don’t understand...

    I can guarantee that the majority of video games have common core designs for their classes that serve as the foundation for designing and balancing... And for example, Initiative wasn’t put on thieves in the name of “balance”, it was put on thief because of “it would be fun”...

    Finally the devs are paying real attention to professions in the game, and resources should be another area for evaluation. And the original designs of the game have proven their major flaws, so you should start realizing that.

    Your point being? The fact that WoW chooses to not have any resource-less classes (Caveat: Mana classes tend to just be resource-less effectively, so they do) doesnt change the fact that different classes have different gates for their skills. Thats good game design.

    Yes, the majority of video games have common core designs. Having different resource systems, including optionally resource-less (I.e. only cooldown gated) ones is one of those "common core designs". Thats the part you dont get. You think GW2 is some special case, while in reality, its the norm. And what you are proposing? That would be the special case.

    Point being your claim about things becoming the same are factually false. How many games do I need to bring up so you can understand?

    I want you to tell me how many times this necro was able to use their class mechanic to a meaningful degree in this video... Go ahead and count...

    You have yet to bring up a single, solitary game that supports your point. I have brought up dozens that completely disprove your point. Face the facts, GW2s system is the norm, your lovely idea of having everyone use the exact same system is the major exception. Yknow why? Because its not good design. It makes it harder to balance (fewer levers to pull), lowers gameplay diversity and brings nothing to the table.

  • Lord Trejgon.2809Lord Trejgon.2809 Member ✭✭✭

    Guys, I have a small favour from all of ya to ask - can You snip the history of nested quotes you are doing? I'm receiving alot of notification about"responses" from this thread that are in no way relevant to my input anymore xD

    Thanks in advance ;)