The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Whole Raid Meta Consists of 2 Classes

Yup, if you go and check snowcrows team compositions, literally every boss consists of either dragonhunters, mirages, power chronos or firebrands. These classes have been dominating power and condi bosses for a long time and its starting to get boring. I am writing this because I am afraid that ANet will go to benchmark page, look at top 3 or 4 dps and nerf them but not touch other classes which actually needs attention.

To begin with, mirage has been dominating every other class in condition damage favored fights due to its ability to apply insane amounts of confusion and this is the case since release of path of fire. Other than that, firebrand which has very good utility, such as stab reflect quickness heal and such should not have more damage than other classes who do not have access to such utilities. Another thing that seems off to me is that people can place traps as DH then switch to firebrand and still have traps in place, but when you place a trap with ranger and even switch the skill, the trap disappears, I think that is how it should be for DH too. I know that you can play other classes and still kill without issues, but my point is that the class diversity has been narrowed a lot and there is literally no reason to play another dps class nowadays.

My suggestions would be;
-Remove the insanely high amounts of confusion mirage can apply or just remove confusion damage on bosses and buff their torment bleed etc in PVE.
-Make DH traps work like rangers.
-Stop nerfing classes based on their golem benchmarks.
-Maybe create new options for specs such as power mirage, power renegade. They have been only condi classes for too long.
-Adjust classes damage output based on their complexity, utility and survivability. (risk reward)
-Make some exciting adjustments to chrono, it takes ages to find support chrono for groups because very few people are willing to play it after all the nerfs.
-Lastly please DONT nerf condition weaver, we are only like 5 people only who play it :(

Thank you.

<1

Comments

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    Yup, if you go and check snowcrows team compositions, literally every boss consists of either dragonhunters, mirages, power chronos or firebrands. These classes have been dominating power and condi bosses for a long time and its starting to get boring. I am writing this because I am afraid that ANet will go to benchmark page, look at top 3 or 4 dps and nerf them but not touch other classes which actually needs attention.

    To begin with, mirage has been dominating every other class in condition damage favored fights due to its ability to apply insane amounts of confusion and this is the case since release of path of fire. Other than that, firebrand which has very good utility, such as stab reflect quickness heal and such should not have more damage than other classes who do not have access to such utilities. Another thing that seems off to me is that people can place traps as DH then switch to firebrand and still have traps in place, but when you place a trap with ranger and even switch the skill, the trap disappears, I think that is how it should be for DH too. I know that you can play other classes and still kill without issues, but my point is that the class diversity has been narrowed a lot and there is literally no reason to play another dps class nowadays.

    There's an excuse called "fun". Unless the squad is pushing for fastest possible clear times, it doesn't matter which dps build you play as long as it does decently enough to not be a hindrance (and properly geared there's actually very few builds that are actual hindrances as long as the builds are played well). You can have fun without being optimal and meme-ing while doing high dps can be quite a satisfying challenge. Pretty much anyone can do good dps with optimal setup, but only good players do good dps with meme setup.

    My suggestions would be;
    -Remove the insanely high amounts of confusion mirage can apply or just remove confusion damage on bosses and buff their torment bleed etc in PVE.
    -Make DH traps work like rangers.

    They most likely will. Being able to pre-cast traps and swapping to another elite spec should count as unintended use of skills and an abuse.

    -Stop nerfing classes based on their golem benchmarks.

    Any suggestions on what to base balancing on then? From what Kitty's been reading, perhaps an even more important metric they're following is how much traits and skills are being used and since raiders tend to follow benchmarks for their choice of class to play ("because there is literally no reason to play another dps class nowadays"), that obviously leads to certain traits and skills seeing excessive use at the cost of alternatives and they get nerfed.

    -Maybe create new options for specs such as power mirage, power renegade. They have been only condi classes for too long.

    Power revenant builds have been a viable option already, just a tiny bit (10ish%) weaker than the best options. As a funny fact: power herald does higher dps than power reaper (at least according to Kitty's tests) but since it completely lacks burst and it's quite complicated to pull off, benchmark guilds don't care about testing and listing it as they don't have use for it. Even power core revenant is stronger than reaper and it's super-easy to play.

    -Adjust classes damage output based on their complexity, utility and survivability. (risk reward)

    Kitty (and many others) supports this.

    -Make some exciting adjustments to chrono, it takes ages to find support chrono for groups because very few people are willing to play it after all the nerfs.

    As long as chrono stays meta and wanted by most squads, they won't boost it. As long as chrono stays noticeably more popular than FirebRigade, chrono will be nerfed. Kitty already warned long ago that it will keep on happening to druid and chronos if people keep on insisting on them and refusing other options. If Kitty may be honest about what she thinks, raid community can't blame anyone but themselves for driving devs to nerf chrono and druid to their current seriously nerfed forms (though druid is still ridiculously strong booner if played properly). But if you're tired of waiting for chronos, play a chrono yourself.

    -Lastly please DONT nerf condition weaver, we are only like 5 people only who play it :(

    They don't have much reason to nerf something that people don't play.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You should check again. There are daredevils, deadeyes, renegades, druids, warriors, scourges and so on. And this is only what they find as being optimal which is very different from viable.

    Kitty actually checked Snowcrows's meta comps. And here's what W1-4+SH meta looks like according to them.
    Say "META" if you find a pure dps that isn't mesmer or guardian on that image.

    Luckily those are so specialized comps that most people can't quite pull them off.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't really think it matters what "meta squad" someone listed on a benchmark site when you can easly swap in other classes/builds and still be able to skip mechanics by having high enough dps. Nerf the top build and the second in line will take its place -if your goal is achieving some kind of perfectly balanced dps between the builds then you might as well drop it, because that's just not achievable.

    But I agree that swapping specs should reset your placed traps.

  • Do you honestly think that the majority of the playerbase is talented enough to pull off most of these "no healer" or "1 healer" hyper-offensive-DPS-Are-Their-Own-Supports comps? These only work with great coordination and every player understanding their class well and what they're supposed to do. These group compositions don't negate the fact that it's still incredibly viable to use old comps with other viable DPS as well.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You should check again. There are daredevils, deadeyes, renegades, druids, warriors, scourges and so on. And this is only what they find as being optimal which is very different from viable.

    Kitty actually checked Snowcrows's meta comps. And here's what W1-4+SH meta looks like according to them.
    Say "META" if you find a pure dps that isn't mesmer or guardian on that image.

    Luckily those are so specialized comps that most people can't quite pull them off.

    I'm not sure if you're trying to counter what I said or not. What I said still holds true regardless.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Balance isn't perfect but it has been far worse in the past. There is no longer this one reigning god in the form of the elementalist that greatly outperforms everything else. The builds mentioned might be best in slot but there are many which come close nowadays. Not to mention the variety in support choices. Some stuff might be slightly more efficient but it isn't the only thing there is.
    If you want to complain about the true must-have, complain about the warrior and it's eternal role as a banner slave in raids.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Do you honestly think that the majority of the playerbase is talented enough to pull off most of these "no healer" or "1 healer" hyper-offensive-DPS-Are-Their-Own-Supports comps?

    I think so, yes.
    You can even slot in a second healer and it would still work. You only need 3 Guardians in one group pressing FmW on cooldown. Im sure that most pugs are able to press something on cooldown. Since most people usually dont split up into too many groups for splitphases a half decent chrono will cover the rest. You really dont need to be big brain to pull this off.

  • Well, classes are there for 2 reasons.
    1) mirage work great on some bossesbecause of confusion. There is no problem. Its only few bosses (same as boonthief for example, op on few bosses and usless elsewhere)
    2) quickness stacking. 1 chrono can get very high dps when he doesnt need to apply alacrity. Renegade gets ok dps while applying alacrity. Now you would need quickness source for other subsquad. If you play diferent dps options you need to play another support class. DH isnt that higher then other options but you have 1 more dps slot in raids.
    With firebrand you dont need that 1 support chrono at all. They provide solo quickness so you only need renegade. Same with power chronos.

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    Yup, if you go and check snowcrows team compositions, literally every boss consists of either dragonhunters, mirages, power chronos or firebrands. These classes have been dominating power and condi bosses for a long time and its starting to get boring. I am writing this because I am afraid that ANet will go to benchmark page, look at top 3 or 4 dps and nerf them but not touch other classes which actually needs attention.

    To begin with, mirage has been dominating every other class in condition damage favored fights due to its ability to apply insane amounts of confusion and this is the case since release of path of fire. Other than that, firebrand which has very good utility, such as stab reflect quickness heal and such should not have more damage than other classes who do not have access to such utilities. Another thing that seems off to me is that people can place traps as DH then switch to firebrand and still have traps in place, but when you place a trap with ranger and even switch the skill, the trap disappears, I think that is how it should be for DH too. I know that you can play other classes and still kill without issues, but my point is that the class diversity has been narrowed a lot and there is literally no reason to play another dps class nowadays.

    There's an excuse called "fun". Unless the squad is pushing for fastest possible clear times, it doesn't matter which dps build you play as long as it does decently enough to not be a hindrance (and properly geared there's actually very few builds that are actual hindrances as long as the builds are played well). You can have fun without being optimal and meme-ing while doing high dps can be quite a satisfying challenge. Pretty much anyone can do good dps with optimal setup, but only good players do good dps with meme setup.

    My suggestions would be;
    -Remove the insanely high amounts of confusion mirage can apply or just remove confusion damage on bosses and buff their torment bleed etc in PVE.
    -Make DH traps work like rangers.

    They most likely will. Being able to pre-cast traps and swapping to another elite spec should count as unintended use of skills and an abuse.

    -Stop nerfing classes based on their golem benchmarks.

    Any suggestions on what to base balancing on then? From what Kitty's been reading, perhaps an even more important metric they're following is how much traits and skills are being used and since raiders tend to follow benchmarks for their choice of class to play ("because there is literally no reason to play another dps class nowadays"), that obviously leads to certain traits and skills seeing excessive use at the cost of alternatives and they get nerfed.

    -Maybe create new options for specs such as power mirage, power renegade. They have been only condi classes for too long.

    Power revenant builds have been a viable option already, just a tiny bit (10ish%) weaker than the best options. As a funny fact: power herald does higher dps than power reaper (at least according to Kitty's tests) but since it completely lacks burst and it's quite complicated to pull off, benchmark guilds don't care about testing and listing it as they don't have use for it. Even power core revenant is stronger than reaper and it's super-easy to play.

    -Adjust classes damage output based on their complexity, utility and survivability. (risk reward)

    Kitty (and many others) supports this.

    -Make some exciting adjustments to chrono, it takes ages to find support chrono for groups because very few people are willing to play it after all the nerfs.

    As long as chrono stays meta and wanted by most squads, they won't boost it. As long as chrono stays noticeably more popular than FirebRigade, chrono will be nerfed. Kitty already warned long ago that it will keep on happening to druid and chronos if people keep on insisting on them and refusing other options. If Kitty may be honest about what she thinks, raid community can't blame anyone but themselves for driving devs to nerf chrono and druid to their current seriously nerfed forms (though druid is still ridiculously strong booner if played properly). But if you're tired of waiting for chronos, play a chrono yourself.

    -Lastly please DONT nerf condition weaver, we are only like 5 people only who play it :(

    They don't have much reason to nerf something that people don't play.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    You should check again. There are daredevils, deadeyes, renegades, druids, warriors, scourges and so on. And this is only what they find as being optimal which is very different from viable.

    Kitty actually checked Snowcrows's meta comps. And here's what W1-4+SH meta looks like according to them.
    Say "META" if you find a pure dps that isn't mesmer or guardian on that image.

    Luckily those are so specialized comps that most people can't quite pull them off.

    I am chrono main and I think that support chrono in raids is still great. It used to be extremly overpowered, basicaly carried whole squad by letting them ignore most mechanics. Nerfs were well deserved. Also last patch was a huge buff to both versions of support chrono.

  • @Alyster.9470 said:
    -Make some exciting adjustments to chrono, it takes ages to find support chrono for groups because very few people are willing to play it after all the nerfs.

    That's a player driven issue. If your squad would be covering alacrity yourself you could just ask for a "tank" and let people play their favorite class for this role. Problem is people like you so heavily insist on chronos that you're trapping yourself.

    Either adjust or play chrono yourself - problem solved.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    "Nerf the top build and the second in line will take its place" as someone else said, about perfectly sums up anything i could say.

    That said, firebrand specifically is very OP and much in need of nerf. But frankly, idk what they could with firebrand at this point to bring it reasonably in line with anything else without absolutely destroying it - imo firebrand should just have been designed very differently, but it's far too late for a rework to introduce any real cost to taking any of your utility as a firebrand that actually impacts gameplay. Firebrands are just so good because between your utility slots as a normal guardian and the utility from tomes AND the extreme dps- which comes in part due to being so focused on a single condition, and in part because Tomes Are Just Very Good, that it's just really so good to play almost everywhere- even in non-optimal comps on power bosses.

    Now, points to consider about the meta comps:
    -power chrono stacking just doesn't occur outside of statics, and only a few statics even do that. It's hard to pull off (everyone needs to cooridinate TW due to it hitting the cap on quickness stacks by itself and each stack being very short) on a build that no one has because its just really sad when it ISNT p chrono stacking- because your slow uptime outside of p chrono stacking is realitistcally going to be 0-10% (dghs are capable of carrying a reasonable uptime for their p chronos - this rarely actually happens), you are missing the massive dps increase the danger time trait provides- and because danger time provides additional crit chance (15%) you are even worse if you don't take additional things (more dps loss) to account for lost crit chance.

    -mirages actually are good, but unless you're really good at the rotation it's often just easier to use condition firebrand- due to how much easier the rotation is. infact, mirage is really the ONLY dps build that i'd say if you geared correctly you'll still get sad dps if you faceroll the rotation. newbie mirages also have a tendency to press axe 3 and sometimes axe 2 which hurls them into Instant Death or Very Quick Deaths- like spikes on MO, WALLS ON SH, being flung in front of dhuum, in general just being teleported to where a boss attacks next (my favourite moments are on cairn and you axe 3 as his telport sequence occurs, then he teleports to the edge, you teleport to the edge with him, then are instantly knockbacked by his landing there right off of the arena. good times.) however, to depose mirages of their throne on certain bosses, you'd have to erase confusion AND torment completely- which makes mirage and condi chrono completely useless and devoid of flavour.

    -while power dragonhunter is quite good, i feel like it's actually relatively balanced right now. At MOST it could use a nerf that translates to 3-4 dps. You see, like the firebrand, power dragonhunter brings a lot of utility- importantly, fmw and GROUP blocks/aegis, this means that although pure numbers wise dragonhunter is outperformed by several builds- i could compare to rev but thats power vs condi, it is however outperformed by elementalist and maybe some other builds, i don't have the burst dps vs sustain of all builds ingrained into my brain - it's just better to take due to less rotation interruption (block/aegis) and the lack of need to bring a full quickness giver (which is a greater dps loss compared to taking 3 dragonhunters with fmw). though realistically, for not-speed clearing groups, it's much much much more reliable to take a fully devoted quickness giver- especially if that's a condi quickbrand. So, you'd actually have to hurt it's utility to dethrone it - it's already out dpsed by other power builds - which is super complicated to change, because you either destroy the whole idea of guardian OR you hurt it's dps so much everyones back to double chrono ONLY comps. IMO - i much prefer having the option of stacking dragonhunters, than needing the exact same set of supports for every single raid.

    You said "-Adjust classes damage output based on their complexity, utility and survivability. (risk reward)" - This is actually something that is already, largely held up. There's a few exceptions, but largely, you don't see elementalist domination in the comps anymore (and thank the six because i hated 2x chr x2 druid 1x bers 5x staff weaver so much) because it just doesn't provide any additional utility really, to perform comfortably a weaver needs to be carried by the rest of the groups aegis/general makes-it-so-i-don't-have-to-dodge stuff like stunbreaks/stab. Deadeye has a strong benchmark, but then like p chrono there is drawbacks- for deadeye it is single target and it brings basically no group utility. Mirage has a drawback, and that is once it's confusion and torment are made ineffective by bosses not attacking fast enough or moving enough, condition firebrand and renegade outperform it, along with needing high skill to be effective. For that matter, condition renegade is also a build that needs high skill to play effectively. Firebrand is the only build which needs nowhere near as much skill as renegade/mesmer dps/elementalist and benchmarks quite high along with bringing carry level utility as a dps.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    snip

    The fact that you believe that you'd even come close to playing in a group which runs Snowcrows performance levels amuses me. Also you forgot to mention Renegade and Druid, which are the mirror classes for their suports.

    Maybe instead of looking at meta builds on some website get some first hand experience. What you'd learn then is:

    • 90% of the raid community does not run snowcrows meta raid build setups but rather a variation of them for safer clears with a lot more flexibility on dps slots and support slots, even in statics
    • there is a ton of damage dealers which can replace Dragonhunters and are often better than DHs if not phasing bosses asap
    • the only real damage dealer without equal is Mirage, thanks to its mechanic. This is only relevant on 3 bosses and on 2 of those, other condi dps can come very close

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    Do you honestly think that the majority of the playerbase is talented enough to pull off most of these "no healer" or "1 healer" hyper-offensive-DPS-Are-Their-Own-Supports comps? These only work with great coordination and every player understanding their class well and what they're supposed to do. These group compositions don't negate the fact that it's still incredibly viable to use old comps with other viable DPS as well.

    Exactly, not to mention that the snowcrows meta setups require a LOT of changing roles, perfect execution and multi class experience on a very high level. Most Fullclear groups opt for less loading times, safer compositions and safer strats.

  • Painbow.6059Painbow.6059 Member ✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    I would argue Firebrand is a little too strong right now but I don't think Power Chronomancer, Mirage or Dragonhunter are. Power Chronomancer is hardly ever used to its full potential because the vast majority of groups do not play Pchrono due to required coordination. In most groups that don't stack Pchronos, it merely gets by as another DPS class that will usually underperform some other classes. Dragonhunter is strong in bursty fights and can bring some quickness, but in pug groups, it doesn't really pull ahead of other options because it has mediocre sustained damage. Mirage is very strong on certain bosses, but except from Largos, a fairly average mirage can still get kitten on by lots of other condition classes. I suppose I think balance should be based on the majority of players, and not a small minority.

  • @Painbow.6059 said:
    Dragonhunter is strong in bursty fights and can bring some quickness, but in pug groups, it doesn't really pull ahead of other options because it has mediocre sustained damage.

    So what you are saying is that Scourge and PReaper are in a good spot because i can outdps pugs with it? I dont understand why you would ever want to balance around the majority. The majority doesnt care about balance as long as they can play their class. Turns out that you can do that atm. From a pug perspective the balance is really good atm. From a hardcore perspective its absolute garbage.

  • @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Painbow.6059 said:
    Dragonhunter is strong in bursty fights and can bring some quickness, but in pug groups, it doesn't really pull ahead of other options because it has mediocre sustained damage.

    So what you are saying is that Scourge and PReaper are in a good spot because i can outdps pugs with it? I dont understand why you would ever want to balance around the majority. The majority doesnt care about balance as long as they can play their class. Turns out that you can do that atm. From a pug perspective the balance is really good atm. From a hardcore perspective its absolute garbage.

    I do think Scourge and PReaper are in an alright spot yeah. I'm pretty happy with balance atm. I don't mind certain classes being better in a hardcore setting because of how long the fights last or the utility that certain builds provide, you can still trash pugs on PReaper so w/e

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Painbow.6059 said:
    Dragonhunter is strong in bursty fights and can bring some quickness, but in pug groups, it doesn't really pull ahead of other options because it has mediocre sustained damage.

    So what you are saying is that Scourge and PReaper are in a good spot because i can outdps pugs with it? I dont understand why you would ever want to balance around the majority. The majority doesnt care about balance as long as they can play their class. Turns out that you can do that atm. From a pug perspective the balance is really good atm. From a hardcore perspective its absolute garbage.

    You are assuming that changes could improve this for the hardcore perspective. That's highly unlikely given there is 2 general types of damage: power and condition.

    So as far as damage dealers, it would be nearly impossible to create multiple power damage dealers which are best in slot on different raid bosses. This was also almost never the case in the past, there usually always was some type of best damage dealer accross most/all bosses.

    The same goes for condition damage, which only sees variety due to one classes unique mechanics giving it an edge over others. Though splitting different conditions accross multiple condition classes could some what achieve the effect.

    The harsh reality is: with the power creep and variety in the support classes, the variety in the power classes has dropped at the top end. There used to be a component of difficulty of damage loss when taking damage (no scholar uptime for example). With the new all powerful, all boon giving class setups, damage dealers have been reduced to maximum performance only at the top end, and unfortunately there will always be an alpha which can do it better, no matter how close classes are balanced.

  • @Painbow.6059 said:
    I do think Scourge and PReaper are in an alright spot yeah. I'm pretty happy with balance atm. I don't mind certain classes being better in a hardcore setting because of how long the fights last or the utility that certain builds provide, you can still trash pugs on PReaper so w/e

    So what you are saying is that they dont need to balance pve anymore since everything is viable anyway? Cool.

  • @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Painbow.6059 said:
    I do think Scourge and PReaper are in an alright spot yeah. I'm pretty happy with balance atm. I don't mind certain classes being better in a hardcore setting because of how long the fights last or the utility that certain builds provide, you can still trash pugs on PReaper so w/e

    So what you are saying is that they dont need to balance pve anymore since everything is viable anyway? Cool.

    No, I'm saying that they should balance PvE around what the majority of players reasonably pull. Hence why I think Firebrand is a little too strong right now because it's not a difficult class compared to others out there, and it can achieve high DPS numbers on the majority of raid encounters with a lot of utility.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are assuming that changes could improve this for the hardcore perspective. That's highly unlikely given there is 2 general types of damage: power and condition.

    So as far as damage dealers, it would be nearly impossible to create multiple power damage dealers which are best in slot on different raid bosses. This was also almost never the case in the past, there usually always was some type of best damage dealer accross most/all bosses.

    The same goes for condition damage, which only sees variety due to one classes unique mechanics giving it an edge over others. Though splitting different conditions accross multiple condition classes could some what achieve the effect.

    The harsh reality is: with the power creep and variety in the support classes, the variety in the power classes has dropped at the top end. There used to be a component of difficulty of damage loss when taking damage (no scholar uptime for example). With the new all powerful, all boon giving class setups, damage dealers have been reduced to maximum performance only at the top end, and unfortunately there will always be an alpha which can do it better, no matter how close classes are balanced.

    I am not assumg that changes could improve this. In fact i know that changes wont improve this. There will always be one class thats BiS on most encounters. I dont mind that. What i do mind however, is the timeframe. You dont need a dedicated quickness support for how long now? 9 Months? Thats a long time where you basically only play 2 classes on almost every encounter. Mesmer and Guardian. My problem is that the meta doesnt change fast enough. Playing basically 2 classes for 9 months becomes incredible stale and boring.

    "But cant you play a different class?" No, i cant. If a certain class is BiS i am required to play it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are assuming that changes could improve this for the hardcore perspective. That's highly unlikely given there is 2 general types of damage: power and condition.

    So as far as damage dealers, it would be nearly impossible to create multiple power damage dealers which are best in slot on different raid bosses. This was also almost never the case in the past, there usually always was some type of best damage dealer accross most/all bosses.

    The same goes for condition damage, which only sees variety due to one classes unique mechanics giving it an edge over others. Though splitting different conditions accross multiple condition classes could some what achieve the effect.

    The harsh reality is: with the power creep and variety in the support classes, the variety in the power classes has dropped at the top end. There used to be a component of difficulty of damage loss when taking damage (no scholar uptime for example). With the new all powerful, all boon giving class setups, damage dealers have been reduced to maximum performance only at the top end, and unfortunately there will always be an alpha which can do it better, no matter how close classes are balanced.

    I am not assumg that changes could improve this. In fact i know that changes wont improve this. There will always be one class thats BiS on most encounters. I dont mind that. What i do mind however, is the timeframe. You dont need a dedicated quickness support for how long now? 9 Months? Thats a long time where you basically only play 2 classes on almost every encounter. Mesmer and Guardian. My problem is that the meta doesnt change fast enough. Playing basically 2 classes for 9 months becomes incredible stale and boring.

    "But cant you play a different class?" No, i cant. If a certain class is BiS i am required to play it.

    Sure, but you do realize that you are basically cherry pick complaining at the very top end right?

    Before complaining about a slow shifting meta (what about 3+ years of HoT?). I'd be worried about the content and game mode in general. To fix that issue, you need more players to engage in the content.

    Also there is good reason to not constantly shift the meta around for a vast majority of players. Not everyone can gear a new class ever 2 weeks nor put in the time to learn and adapt to a new setup. Introducing the Firebrigade setup took over 3 months and multiple rounds of buffs before that until the majority of the player base adapted and made those classes. Even now chrono and druid remain the backbone for many raid groups.

    So while I may sympathize with your issue, I certainly don't agree that it's the main problem this game mode has, nor that it will see any form of remedy. As far as balance for the mode overall, Arenanet has been doing a good job of making classes inclusive and represented enough for the biggest majority of players.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    dont nerf weaver he says... condi weaver ramping its damage faster than almost any other power build in the game.... yup seems normal.
    power dps ramping hard at the start of combat
    Condi dps weaver ramping faster

    Condi is not suppose to ramp as fast a power damage but hits higher potential over time.... condi weaver checking both boxes lul for fast ramp and high potential damage over time.

    Overall for pve at this point i say buff everything and just set a max damage cap that everyone can hit that way everyone is literally balanced in terms of damage lol

  • @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Painbow.6059 said:
    Dragonhunter is strong in bursty fights and can bring some quickness, but in pug groups, it doesn't really pull ahead of other options because it has mediocre sustained damage.

    So what you are saying is that Scourge and PReaper are in a good spot because i can outdps pugs with it? I dont understand why you would ever want to balance around the majority. The majority doesnt care about balance as long as they can play their class. Turns out that you can do that atm. From a pug perspective the balance is really good atm. From a hardcore perspective its absolute garbage.

    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!
    I.e. the (class) balance is garbage overall in the PvE endgame. It's just that every class is viable now, so ANet doesn't really care ... As you can read on the forums: WvW and PvP has priority now (which is actually not even a bad reason!).

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Before complaining about a slow shifting meta (what about 3+ years of HoT?). I'd be worried about the content and game mode in general. To fix that issue, you need more players to engage in the content.

    Can i not be worried about multiple things at the same time?

    Also there is good reason to not constantly shift the meta around for a vast majority of players. Not everyone can gear a new class ever 2 weeks nor put in the time to learn and adapt to a new setup. Introducing the Firebrigade setup took over 3 months and multiple rounds of buffs before that until the majority of the player base adapted and made those classes. Even now chrono and druid remain the backbone for many raid groups.

    Thats their own fault tho. The game makes it really easy (and cheap!) to swap stats.

    So while I may sympathize with your issue, I certainly don't agree that it's the main problem this game mode has, nor that it will see any form of remedy. As far as balance for the mode overall, Arenanet has been doing a good job of making classes inclusive and represented enough for the biggest majority of players.

    I never said it was the main issue. Im pretty much only taking about speedclearing here.

  • @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

  • Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    Just want to clarify things for people saying that "not everyone can pull these numbers" or " its funny you think you have a group like SC. My point is that SC has found the best possible ways to kill bosses as fast as possible and they ended up using only 2 classes as DPS. I did not say anything about support classes so please stop bringing them into discussion, my opinion is only based on dps classes. Ofc there are exceptions but only on 2-3 bosses that you would use renegades daredevils and deadeyes which are dhuum and qadims. I just wanted to say that those 2 classes are everywhere when it comes to meta. Having the same meta for months gets boring and having big changes on meta makes raiding more fun and feel different which encourages people to play more classes. Some people like me and others enjoy being semi/hardcore and following the meta, so I think that we need a change.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    Just want to clarify things for people saying that "not everyone can pull these numbers" or " its funny you think you have a group like SC. My point is that SC has found the best possible ways to kill bosses as fast as possible and they ended up using only 2 classes as DPS. I did not say anything about support classes so please stop bringing them into discussion, my opinion is only based on dps classes. Ofc there are exceptions but only on 2-3 bosses that you would use renegades daredevils and deadeyes which are dhuum and qadims. I just wanted to say that those 2 classes are everywhere when it comes to meta. Having the same meta for months gets boring and having big changes on meta makes raiding more fun and feel different which encourages people to play more classes. Some people like me and others enjoy being semi/hardcore and following the meta, so I think that we need a change.

    Yes, and once a majority of players are able to actually make use of these classes and setups, you might have a valid issue. Since that is not the case, who cares?

    Beside the obvious fact that a best in slot class will pretty much always exist for power and for condition damage, especially for power. Why would a power damage class suddenly be worse on one boss when it was spiking insanely high on another? I gave a reason why condition damage might see some flexibility here earlier.

    Which is even more ironic, since Snowcrows didn't even use all of these setups themselves during ERP3. Why? because it turns out, sometimes going for safety is preferable over a potential fastest setup which has a high chance of failure.

  • @mindcircus.1506 no. Do you see mirage on golem benchmark? But it will outdps any class by at least 5-10k depending on boss because "confusion". For firebrand my point was it has way too much damage while having a lot of utility etc. My discussion is about team comps not their benchmarks.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    Just want to clarify things for people saying that "not everyone can pull these numbers" or " its funny you think you have a group like SC. My point is that SC has found the best possible ways to kill bosses as fast as possible and they ended up using only 2 classes as DPS. I did not say anything about support classes so please stop bringing them into discussion, my opinion is only based on dps classes. Ofc there are exceptions but only on 2-3 bosses that you would use renegades daredevils and deadeyes which are dhuum and qadims. I just wanted to say that those 2 classes are everywhere when it comes to meta. Having the same meta for months gets boring and having big changes on meta makes raiding more fun and feel different which encourages people to play more classes. Some people like me and others enjoy being semi/hardcore and following the meta, so I think that we need a change.

    Well, that's a different point entirely the one you bring up in the OP. You're now saying you dislike the raid meta because just playing 2 classes in unfun, that's completely fair but it changes the discussion.

    Not sure if i agree with shaking up the meta Just Because, but i would be concerned for power chrono if it ever left it's place as the p chrono stack meta. Currently, that's all p chrono is useful for.

  • @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    and yet the most powerful class and meta condi class on some bosses (Mirage) is at 9.8k condi damage. What exactly does that tell us? Does Mirage turn into the second worst dps at the 50th percentile mark? But it's meta and by far top tier on 3-5 boss at the top end? Please do explain.

    While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    and yet the most powerful class and meta condi class on some bosses (Mirage) is at 9.8k condi damage. What exactly does that tell us? Does Mirage turn into the second worst dps at the 50th percentile mark? But it's meta and by far top tier on 3-5 boss at the top end? Please do explain.

    I rarely ever look at red classes (the red icon in front of them), they have a low confidence level (small sample size (n)), and thus can be considered as anecdotal data!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    and yet the most powerful class and meta condi class on some bosses (Mirage) is at 9.8k condi damage. What exactly does that tell us? Does Mirage turn into the second worst dps at the 50th percentile mark? But it's meta and by far top tier on 3-5 boss at the top end? Please do explain.

    I rarely ever look at red classes (the red icon in front of them), they have a low confidence level (small sample size (n)), and thus can be considered as anecdotal data!

    Yet a yellow sample size is adequate? Fine. Doesn't answer the question about how condition damage on VG would be affected by their power dps, but I guess you decided to skip that one.

    So what about heal scourge, which is running often a hybrid mix of condition damage and heal power, obviously benching a lot lower than a regular condition scourge. What about scourges who use epi to manage red circles on VG by sharing immobilize and slow?

    Would any of those cause any issues?

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

    I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):

    As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

    And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

    I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):

    As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

    And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

    Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

    If you are wondering where I am going with this:
    Looking at data is 1 thing. Actually having experience to make sense of the data is another. You are lacking in 1 of both departments.

    and that's without even opening the box of cans that is: this is only successful kill data. Which is a vast issue of itsself when discussing class viability.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

    I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):

    As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

    And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

    Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

    This is the condi section, there's a support section where heal scourges come up!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

    I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):

    As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

    And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

    Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

    This is the condi section, there's a support section where heal scourges come up!

    Right, because the website and algorithm knows where to place which data right? How exactly do you think performance gets placed here? It goes by percentile values, which still means that a very good heal scourge carrying a group could show up in the damage section.

    Even if only a few showed up or were misplaced that way, it would cause a shift in data and averages. Enough to discredit any values for classes that have hybrid support specs (EDIT: which by the way, heal/condi scourge is the only one played to larger extent unless you count condi druid in high performance groups).

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    @mindcircus.1506 no. Do you see mirage on golem benchmark? But it will outdps any class by at least 5-10k depending on boss because "confusion". For firebrand my point was it has way too much damage while having a lot of utility etc. My discussion is about team comps not their benchmarks.

    Weakest backpeddal yet.

  • @Cyninja.2954 dps meters dont count confusion damage. https://imgur.com/XNyQt6L just look at these numbers and lets talk again.

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I see a lot of opinions on these forums (mostly from hearsay or anecdotal proof, I presume) about PvE balance being in a good spot at the moment, while real statistics >show that even in a mediocre (50th percentiles) setting, the differences between top and bottom classes are incredibly high, up to 30% 40% or even as much as 50% >difference between say a Mirage or Firebrand and say a Condi Scourge (which has terrible condi DPS atm, and is one of the most difficult to pull off as well now!).
    And again, I'm not talking about speedclearers (who are generally closer together), I'm talking about a casual/pug setting here!

    From what i can tell you from my own experience: The classes are actually decently close in terms of dps. Sure you will have some outliners but thats due to player skill. While there is a Mirage that has 5k more DPS than the Soulbeast, theres also 2 Guardians that have a 5k DPS difference.

    Indeed, those are mostly own experiences, and those could be quite cloudy, and always anecdotal. If you look at statistics of 100's of people, say on ... the very first raid boss VG:

    You see that for Condi DPS, a (in this case) condi Weaver is almost 5K in front of (between brackets () is boss dps) a condi Scourge. And 5K doesnt sound too much, but it's actually about 50% more dps that the 9.5k dps a Scourge pulls off.
    And before anyone starts, I selected the 50th percentile here! In other words, we're looking at the more casual raiders here, not the speedclearers and hardcore raiders which are in the 90th or even 99th percentile (FYI: these are actually a bit closer together even, which even to my surprise could tell you that a Condi Weaver build is easier to pull off than the Condi Scourge build nowadays, but that's a whole different discussion)

    While at it, how would a poor performing power dps setup affect condi during split phases on VG given that the red add would die way faster to condi damage while the power dps are still killing their two adds? Is that something which would be reflected in the data?

    I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):

    As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

    And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

    Yes, I wonder why condi scourge is benching so much lower on all the bosses where heal scourge is a very popular pick.

    This is the condi section, there's a support section where heal scourges come up!

    Right, because the website and algorithm knows where to place which data right? How exactly do you think performance gets placed here? It goes by percentile values, which still means that a very good heal scourge carrying a group could show up in the damage section.

    Even if only a few showed up or were misplaced that way, it would cause a shift in data and averages. Enough to discredit any values for classes that have hybrid support specs (EDIT: which by the way, heal/condi scourge is the only one played to larger extent unless you count condi druid in high performance groups).

    Look, I don't care if everyone comes up with ALL kinds of excuses to not really look at real numbers even if they're right in front of them, that's fine with me. I find it even quite loyal towards ANet and GW2 in general ....
    But the real truth is that balance in the PvE endgame might be better than ever, but is still showing huge gaps between top classes and bottom classes, and to even my surprise is not just at the veteran levels, but also at the more casual/puging levels.

    Btw, fyi: this is the case for both condi and power dps! E.g. in most of the power sections, Reapers and Soulbeasts are almost always the bottom of the barrel, and mostly at least by 20% to 30% behind.
    Edit: for example at:

    • VG: DH and Daredevil do more than >40% DPS than the Reaper at the 50th percentile
    • Gorseval: Weaver, DH and Daredevil all do >20% more DPS than Reaper and Soulbeast at the 50th percentile
    • Sabetha: Weaver and Holosmith do >15% more DPS than Reaper and Berserker at the 50th percentile
    • Sloth: DH and Daredevil do >30% more DPS than Reaper at the 50th percentile
    • etc.
  • @mindcircus.1506 if you are not here to discuss and just try to annoy people, you can proceed to your open world rp and meta events. Clearly you have no clue about endgame content.

  • Things to remember when referring to GW2 raidar numbers: it's not very widely used atm as many use dps.report for far wider data analysis while it's also far less likely to report "error" (and GW2raidar was said to go down on July but somehow it's still up and lots of people aren't aware of that). Some classes are also heavily skewed by either being so complicated to play that only very good players use them (like condiweeber) and all top-tier players using the meta dps instead of alternatives on most bosses which greatly bumps up the average for meta dps per boss (like mirage on Cairn). Also, people bringing a class that's particularly bad option for a certain boss are usually way less skilled than those who bring a decent option and that even further widens the difference in averages.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:
    I was literally just taking the first boss as an example here, but ok, let's take Cairn then ... a condi boss, EASY and should favor anyone that does Torment dmg, cause it's moving all the time (for some strange reason :) ):

    As you can see here as well, the Mirage and Weaver are doing 45% more DPS than a Scourge here!!!

    And again, 50th percentile here, not the pro's, but the casuals!

    Cairn isnt a Condi Boss. Nothing in the fight favors conditions in general. They fixed the torment bug a long time ago.
    While Confusion is strong there, its not the only reason you take mirages. Mirage has a lot of dodges and blinks, which makes it easy to reposition yourself. If Mirage would be a power spec with proper damage you would probably still play it on cairn.

    In your screenshot Im seeing 4 classes being extremly close to each other, a firebrand thats a little lower probably due to quickness and a warrior, also lower due to banners.
    That leaves the soulbeast and the scourge as outliners. Both classes are recommended for beginners though. Ranger because of the pet and necromancer due to its second healthbar. Does this mean that these specs are bad? Yes. Yes it does. Thats not my point though. You cant just look at numbers and say "Thats just how it is, numbers dont lie" Except that they do. If youd go by numbers condi mirage would have never stepped a foot into raids.

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    dps meters dont count confusion damage. https://imgur.com/XNyQt6L just look at these numbers and lets talk again.

    Self stats are basically correct and area stats are fine on most bosses.
    While Arc does have problems with conditions, not just confusion, it would be a lie to say that it doesnt count them at all.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    While Confusion is strong there, its not the only reason you take mirages. Mirage has a lot of dodges and blinks, which makes it easy to reposition yourself. If Mirage would be a power spec with proper damage you would probably still play it on cairn.
    That leaves the soulbeast and the scourge as outliners. Both classes are recommended for beginners though. Ranger because of the pet and necromancer due to its second healthbar. Does this mean that these specs are bad? Yes. Yes it does. Thats not my point though. You cant just look at numbers and say "Thats just how it is, numbers dont lie" Except that they do. If youd go by numbers condi mirage would have never stepped a foot into raids.

    i mean confusion is the only reason you take mirages, you don't even move with no greens (the quickest strategy). and if you aren't doing no greens i guess i could see it, but then you have SAK anyway. If you're doing power dps i'd honestly go dragonhunter due to SYG and eat the greens if i panic found myself out of a green and SAK on cooldown.

    I'm not entirely sure -i'd- recommend scourge to beginners - in the past, maybe - in the present, it's up there on the least facerollable builds. this is more due to that if you use your skills with reckless abandon you kill yourself with the corruptions if you don't use that one trait right, and using that trait means placing shades which cuts your personal survivability if you don't place them good. And y'know, raid newbies are all about trying to hold onto their tough/vit stat sets for surviving more.

    Condition soulbeast is one i would recommend to newbies due to its very simple rotation, and the fact a single trait change and you can double shortbow and press things with wild abandon if you really don't know what you're doing. And mayhaps this even why it's got such bad numbers - as another said, meta and high skill dps classes are usually only played by very talented players who know they can use them- soulbeast is played by a lot of low skill players in part due to the suggestion of it's ease, who are therefore getting low numbers.

  • @Lexi.1398 said:
    i mean confusion is the only reason you take mirages, you don't even move with no greens (the quickest strategy). and if you aren't doing no greens i guess i could see it, but then you have SAK anyway. If you're doing power dps i'd honestly go dragonhunter due to SYG and eat the greens if i panic found myself out of a green and SAK on cooldown.

    Ports and red circles are a thing tho. Firebrand can probably keep up wit Mirage. PChrono maybe. Its not that much about confusion, even though its really good on cairn.
    If you really think about it, nothing in the fight makes conditions in general better. If you can think of something feel free to tell me.

    I'm not entirely sure -i'd- recommend scourge to beginners - in the past, maybe - in the present, it's up there on the least facerollable builds. this is more due to that if you use your skills with reckless abandon you kill yourself with the corruptions if you don't use that one trait right, and using that trait means placing shades which cuts your personal survivability if you don't place them good. And y'know, raid newbies are all about trying to hold onto their tough/vit stat sets for surviving more.

    I meant Necro tho. Necro does have the second healthbar and people frequently recommend it. Its not to far fetched to think that these players will also unlock scoruge/reaper first.

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    Ports and red circles are a thing tho. Firebrand can probably keep up wit Mirage. PChrono maybe. Its not that much about confusion, even though its really good on cairn.
    If you really think about it, nothing in the fight makes conditions in general better. If you can think of something feel free to tell me.

    I meant Necro tho. Necro does have the second healthbar and people frequently recommend it. Its not to far fetched to think that these players will also unlock scoruge/reaper first.

    The ports which take an age and a half of a very visible animation in the world and on your screen before they go off? You can just...walk a bit to the side and go out of them - no need for any special abilities, or dodging in fact.

    I personally didn't say cairn was a condition fight - another poster did that - in general most "condi" fights usually means "confusion and torment fight" - except for dhuum, dhuum is a real condition fight but really, he only slightly favours torment compared to other bosses, and only slightly favours conditions at all.

    The numbers were about scourge, reaper has a second health bar, scourge has barrier which since shade changes, only really saves you if you placed your shades right. And if we're talking about reaper that's a whole different thing. I have personally only experienced condi scourge, my experience with reaper is only in open world so i'm not really in a position to say why it ever was suggested. I have heard though, that nowadays it's harder to use than other classes.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    Since you guys took easy builds for raiding newbies into topic, Kitty can recommend some.
    -GS-only Reaper (many newbies camp axe longer than just using axe 2 which nerfs their dps to oblivion so just camping GS is better option.)
    -Condi Shortbow Soulbeast
    -Power Sword+Axe soulbeast (just make sure to not get caught in mechs during axe 5)
    -Power Sword+Pistol Deadeye (Simpliest build in the whole game.)
    -Condi Pistol-only Deadeye (Kitty's personal dps record at Matt is with this build. Super-simple with superb dps uptime.)
    -Power Greatsword Dragonhunter (so newbies don't mess up the rotation by wrong weapon swap timings)
    -Condi Axe+Torch Firebrand (so newbies don't camp scepter too long)
    -Power Axe+Axe Berserker (Only potential for mess-ups is with Headbutt)
    -Power Sword+Sword Revenant (Literally faceroll.)
    -Condi Shortbow-only Renegade (Pretty much Renegade-version of shortbow soulbeast)

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Lexi.1398 said:
    The ports which take an age and a half of a very visible animation in the world and on your screen before they go off? You can just...walk a bit to the side and go out of them - no need for any special abilities, or dodging in fact.

    We are talking about no greens, right? You will build up stacks. You will reach 99 stacks at roughly 50 seconds into the fight. That means a really good group will have to deal with 99 stacks (basically unable to move except for the SAK) for about 15 seconds. You see how a class that has evades and blinks (and superspeed a few months ago) is good on this, right?

    The numbers were about scourge, reaper has a second health bar, scourge has barrier which since shade changes, only really saves you if you placed your shades right. And if we're talking about reaper that's a whole different thing. I have personally only experienced condi scourge, my experience with reaper is only in open world so i'm not really in a position to say why it ever was suggested. I have heard though, that nowadays it's harder to use than other classes.

    Yes, the numbers were about scourge. I said necromancer is one of the classes usually recommended for beginners. That means, that beginners are probably going to either unlock Scourge or Reaper as their first elite spec, right? Thats could be one explenation on why these classes are so much lower.

  • @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Lexi.1398 said:
    The ports which take an age and a half of a very visible animation in the world and on your screen before they go off? You can just...walk a bit to the side and go out of them - no need for any special abilities, or dodging in fact.

    We are talking about no greens, right? You will build up stacks. You will reach 99 stacks at roughly 50 seconds into the fight. That means a really good group will have to deal with 99 stacks (basically unable to move except for the SAK) for about 15 seconds. You see how a class that has evades and blinks (and superspeed a few months ago) is good on this, right?

    To be heard, as long as you can see the teleport circles and you have swiftness, you can easily walk out of them even at 99 stacks. 99 stacks only becomes a problem if the squad can't get enough swiftness due to supports providing low/no swiftness. (happens with many druids in LFG squads and it's painful when it does)

    The numbers were about scourge, reaper has a second health bar, scourge has barrier which since shade changes, only really saves you if you placed your shades right. And if we're talking about reaper that's a whole different thing. I have personally only experienced condi scourge, my experience with reaper is only in open world so i'm not really in a position to say why it ever was suggested. I have heard though, that nowadays it's harder to use than other classes.

    Yes, the numbers were about scourge. I said necromancer is one of the classes usually recommended for beginners. That means, that beginners are probably going to either unlock Scourge or Reaper as their first elite spec, right? Thats could be one explenation on why these classes are so much lower.

    Casuals who have never played GW2 before often choose necromancer since it's easy, durable and minions can tank everything for them and that obviously leads to them starting raiding as reapers and scourges, often with a random mix of exotic gears or soldier's exotics until they're teached about proper raiding gears.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not to mention that the Reaper and it's style in particular seems to speak to a lot of players who prefer dark and edgy "stuff".

    These long frames of rather stale METAs wouldn't feel as bad if the content releases were far more frequent. No new builds to try and play while you have to replay the same content over and over again is certainly a pretty bad combination of issues.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

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