Trailer for Whisper in the Dark Lore Discussion — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Trailer for Whisper in the Dark Lore Discussion

Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 12, 2019 in Lore

I'm happy this trailer gives more sense of not knowing really what's going to happen - basically one of the fundamental rules of Lovecraftian story - not knowing...

link to the trailer:

The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

H. P. Lovecraft

Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    I wonder if Jormag helped the Elder Races forge the bloodstone? What if the Elder Dragons and the Elder Races formed a truce when the ED's revealed that the DSD must flood the land in order to purge his torment? All of the terrestrial Elder Dragons were in on it. As part of the deal Jormag gave the races artifacts like the Sanguinary blade, Edge of Destiny etc. Could this be why Kralk was mad at Glint? She allowed the Margonites to be destroyed, in so doing rendering the Crystal Sea a Crystal Desert, preventing the cycle of torment resolution and forcing the DSD's hand?

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    The Boneskinner is an interesting creature, I think I might know where it's from based on it's model and concept art but i'm not entirely sure. It clearly draws some inspiration from Native American legends concerning the Wendigos of the colder climates. For those uninitiated the Wendigo was a creature of myth who was cursed to forever consume the flesh of others and to never be full, mainly because it's body would always grow with the excess of whatever they devoured. The host of the Wendigo spirit would as a result be something of a paradox, at once it would be growing larger and stronger with age, but it would also always look like it was dying. Exposed ribs, empty stomach, lanky bone ribbed limbs.

    Sometimes this might be more literal, the Wendigo in question might seem to be an actual walking corpse with a constant pallor of death as though it been left out in the cold. Often the Wendigo would share animalistic aspects whether those be fur, horns, a snout, or antlers. They might take on the visage akin to a deer, a wolf, or some other bestial animal. For this reason they are often described as giant skeletal merges of man and animal either walking upright or prowling like a beast. Elongated claws, sallow glowing eyes, and long tongues. Something you can see in the Boneskinners body, even the tongue can be observed when it's head splits open and it appears to vomit forth a nest of tendrils in it's throat.

    The exact nature of the Wendigo can vary but they are all tied to the taboo of cannibalism, often to survive. But they can also be tied to a desire to conquer and hoard wealth or resources. In this way the legend served as both a cautionary tale and an emphasis on both cooperation and moderation that was needed for the survival of the tribe. When a person displayed these vices the spirits of the forest could flow into their body, hijacking their flesh and transforming them into a monstrous reflection of their inner evils, doomed to hunt down and kill their former loved ones.

    Judging by the Boneskinner concept art it appears like the base creature for the Boneskinner was a charr, though it's body has long since 'evolved' past those easily recognizable features. Still if you wanted to create a creature that embodied the darker aspects of Charr society that we're exploring, the Wendigo spirit is a good choice for representing that insatiable bloodthirst, ruthlessness, and desire to conquer that they can exude. I am curious about that bone amulet around it's neck which appears to made of several different remains tied together. Did it make that for itself, or did someone put that amulet onto it?

    I'm not a Native American, so feel free to correct me if I got any elements of the stories wrong, but that's what this appears to be drawing from.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The Boneskinner is an interesting creature

    It looks a lot like Drust stuff we can see in WoW:BfA. I think it was based on Irish mythology (I'm not sure about that though).
    Other than that, it looks like a giant bear skeleton with antlers to me. And bears with Antlers also are in WoW.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I can see it, in the sense that the Wicker constructs share visual similarities, but I don't know. That thing is more bone and meat then wood, it looks like it's been in a state of decay for awhile.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    I can def see the similarities to the Drust after googling it, but the Wendigo inspiration is clear. And makes more sense now - it seemed somewhat out of place until the mention of it and then the context for it clicked.

    The Marionette Icebrood giant thing looks intriguing as well

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The reason why I love Tom Abernathy :D

    Me be like: okay, Aurene gonna save the day
    He be like: .... yikes. r u sure?

    but then he wrote this really interesting post after I kind of compared A Bug in the System trailer and Whisper in the Dark one:

    there's definitely some of that same horror movie vibe-but where ABitS turned into Cronenberg body horror, WitD's tone is more Blair Witch Project/Halloween by way of Stephen King.

    Body horror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_horror

    Blair Witch Project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blair_Witch_Project

    To which I responded that he makes a good point, because ABitS trailer was more physical - thanks to the Scarab Plague, the experiments etc, this one is much more psychical - strange, creepy-unknown, when the stuff get just: AM I SANE YET?!

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm slightly curious if the bone-skinner is related to Jormag at all. It's got green glow, skeletal/undeadish looking theme.

    The crazy part of my brain: "What if this is the demolished remains of a spirit of the wild?"

  • Wasnt wolverine a spirit that was also consumed? I mean owl wasnt the only one if i recall.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Divine Monk.2401 said:
    Wasnt wolverine a spirit that was also consumed? I mean owl wasnt the only one if i recall.

    Dolyak, Owl, Wolverine, and Eagle are the four that directly turned to fight off Jormag and delay the dragon long enough for the other spirits to guide the Norn south to safety.

    Owl is confirmed dead/consumed, the other three are "unknown" as they haven't had a havroun for a long time. Shamans, but no Havroun.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    The reason why I love Tom Abernathy :D

    Me be like: okay, Aurene gonna save the day
    He be like: .... yikes. r u sure?

    but then he wrote this really interesting post after I kind of compared A Bug in the System trailer and Whisper in the Dark one:

    there's definitely some of that same horror movie vibe-but where ABitS turned into Cronenberg body horror, WitD's tone is more Blair Witch Project/Halloween by way of Stephen King.

    Body horror: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_horror

    Blair Witch Project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blair_Witch_Project

    To which I responded that he makes a good point, because ABitS trailer was more physical - thanks to the Scarab Plague, the experiments etc, this one is much more psychical - strange, creepy-unknown, when the stuff get just: AM I SANE YET?!

    Lets temper things just slightly since as much as I enjoyed LS4Ep2 (the last good episode), it failed to take the promise of the trailer and bring that sense of horror into the story and the map. There were a few bits like the experimented creatures in the glass jars, but that was much more Metroid Prime just without the desolate atmosphere.

    This is my ultimate trepidation with all these easy "Lovecraft" and horror terms tropes being thrown around by players and the writers - the writing team have yet to show they can skillfully weave it into a meaningful gameplay experience. The trailers are great and all, but so far dark fantasy has yet to be well translated here despite having all the ingredients and instead choosing to focus on some overpowered rainbow Dragon who has neatly taken all focus of the plot away from where the more interesting elements lay. The Scarab Plague and Joko being wasted is the prime example. And then whatever nonsense that last instance of the final ep in ls4 was meant to be about.

    The prologue gave me cautious optimism with the atmosphere it carried through the instances, but there's a lot to prove with this narrative team given the ambitions and promise from trailers as strong as this one was.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm slightly curious if the bone-skinner is related to Jormag at all. It's got green glow, skeletal/undeadish looking theme.

    The crazy part of my brain: "What if this is the demolished remains of a spirit of the wild?"

    A fallen Spirit of the Wild seems very likely to me. It wouldn't need relation to Jormag either, as we do have a history of fallen Spirits of the Wild: Nulfastu, Earthbound.

    That said, it has quite a few visual parallels to the Berserking Wendigos of GW1, except being undead looking and much, much larger. So I wonder if there's a relation to that GW1 sub-species, but altered. Like it's some sort of undead lich wendigo. It doesn't seem icebrood related at all, so I'm curious about its origins - only necromancy in the region I could think of would be the out of place Grenth statues in some Far Shiverpeaks dungeons, or Avaar the Fallen but he was just a typical necromancer (albeit one hell of a minion master, like Verata), and killed in GW1.

    @Divine Monk.2401 said:
    Wasnt wolverine a spirit that was also consumed? I mean owl wasnt the only one if i recall.

    Wolverine's fate is unknown. So is Ox's and Eagle's.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Brycar.2651Brycar.2651 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The Boneskinner is an interesting creature, I think I might know where it's from based on it's model and concept art but i'm not entirely sure. It clearly draws some inspiration from Native American legends concerning the Wendigos of the colder climates. For those uninitiated the Wendigo was a creature of myth who was cursed to forever consume the flesh of others and to never be full, mainly because it's body would always grow with the excess of whatever they devoured. The host of the Wendigo spirit would as a result be something of a paradox, at once it would be growing larger and stronger with age, but it would also always look like it was dying. Exposed ribs, empty stomach, lanky bone ribbed limbs.

    Sometimes this might be more literal, the Wendigo in question might seem to be an actual walking corpse with a constant pallor of death as though it been left out in the cold. Often the Wendigo would share animalistic aspects whether those be fur, horns, a snout, or antlers. They might take on the visage akin to a deer, a wolf, or some other bestial animal. For this reason they are often described as giant skeletal merges of man and animal either walking upright or prowling like a beast. Elongated claws, sallow glowing eyes, and long tongues. Something you can see in the Boneskinners body, even the tongue can be observed when it's head splits open and it appears to vomit forth a nest of tendrils in it's throat.

    The exact nature of the Wendigo can vary but they are all tied to the taboo of cannibalism, often to survive. But they can also be tied to a desire to conquer and hoard wealth or resources. In this way the legend served as both a cautionary tale and an emphasis on both cooperation and moderation that was needed for the survival of the tribe. When a person displayed these vices the spirits of the forest could flow into their body, hijacking their flesh and transforming them into a monstrous reflection of their inner evils, doomed to hunt down and kill their former loved ones.

    Judging by the Boneskinner concept art it appears like the base creature for the Boneskinner was a charr, though it's body has long since 'evolved' past those easily recognizable features. Still if you wanted to create a creature that embodied the darker aspects of Charr society that we're exploring, the Wendigo spirit is a good choice for representing that insatiable bloodthirst, ruthlessness, and desire to conquer that they can exude. I am curious about that bone amulet around it's neck which appears to made of several different remains tied together. Did it make that for itself, or did someone put that amulet onto it?

    I'm not a Native American, so feel free to correct me if I got any elements of the stories wrong, but that's what this appears to be drawing from.

    Remember the Norn dying in the previous trailer? Maybe they are Braham’s former teammates who he abandoned. Maybe they had to resort to cannibalism as they wandered lost in the mountains?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm slightly curious if the bone-skinner is related to Jormag at all. It's got green glow, skeletal/undeadish looking theme.

    The crazy part of my brain: "What if this is the demolished remains of a spirit of the wild?"

    A fallen Spirit of the Wild seems very likely to me. It wouldn't need relation to Jormag either, as we do have a history of fallen Spirits of the Wild: Nulfastu, Earthbound.

    That said, it has quite a few visual parallels to the Berserking Wendigos of GW1, except being undead looking and much, much larger. So I wonder if there's a relation to that GW1 sub-species, but altered. Like it's some sort of undead lich wendigo. It doesn't seem icebrood related at all, so I'm curious about its origins - only necromancy in the region I could think of would be the out of place Grenth statues in some Far Shiverpeaks dungeons, or Avaar the Fallen but he was just a typical necromancer (albeit one hell of a minion master, like Verata), and killed in GW1.

    After I posted I thought of that spirit lol. "What if he, or another managed to posses a body?" Cause wasn't the area next to Bjora marches the location of the destroyed/abandoned Norn town filled with hostile spirits? The Far shiverpeaks minotaur variants were quite interesting as well.

    Maybe it's a mutually beneficial thing? Boneskinner drives people insane, which makes them easy prey to join the icebrood, so it's left alone? I'm curious of it's origins, and the wildlife situation of the region. We know that Orr was entirely Risen (wildlife, plants, and people), while the jungle had creatures and mordrem.

    @Brycar.2651 said:
    Remember the Norn dying in the previous trailer? Maybe they are Braham’s former teammates who he abandoned. Maybe they had to resort to cannibalism as they wandered lost in the mountains?

    They would've had plenty time to return to Hoelbrek by now, as Braham made the trek back ages ago himself.

    Wendigo's in GW1 were somewhat related to minotaurs (or at least, were set as being the same race for certain effects).

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    I'm slightly curious if the bone-skinner is related to Jormag at all. It's got green glow, skeletal/undeadish looking theme.

    The crazy part of my brain: "What if this is the demolished remains of a spirit of the wild?"

    A fallen Spirit of the Wild seems very likely to me. It wouldn't need relation to Jormag either, as we do have a history of fallen Spirits of the Wild: Nulfastu, Earthbound.

    That said, it has quite a few visual parallels to the Berserking Wendigos of GW1, except being undead looking and much, much larger. So I wonder if there's a relation to that GW1 sub-species, but altered. Like it's some sort of undead lich wendigo. It doesn't seem icebrood related at all, so I'm curious about its origins - only necromancy in the region I could think of would be the out of place Grenth statues in some Far Shiverpeaks dungeons, or Avaar the Fallen but he was just a typical necromancer (albeit one hell of a minion master, like Verata), and killed in GW1.

    After I posted I thought of that spirit lol. "What if he, or another managed to posses a body?" Cause wasn't the area next to Bjora marches the location of the destroyed/abandoned Norn town filled with hostile spirits?

    Always was interested in that. The largest norn settlement we see in GW1, by a fair margin, but abandoned and haunted with no one around to tell the story. It would be interesting to see it and the vaettir make a comeback.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Judging by the Boneskinner concept art it appears like the base creature for the Boneskinner was a charr, though it's body has long since 'evolved' past those easily recognizable features. Still if you wanted to create a creature that embodied the darker aspects of Charr society that we're exploring, the Wendigo spirit is a good choice for representing that insatiable bloodthirst, ruthlessness, and desire to conquer that they can exude. I am curious about that bone amulet around it's neck which appears to made of several different remains tied together. Did it make that for itself, or did someone put that amulet onto it?

    Missed this bit before, but I had a similar thought that it was based off of the charr rigging. I was thinking that they took a charr and made a new animation set for being on all four. However, others reminded me of the Vinetooth rigging (also used by Awakened Abominations) which seems more likely considering it. Lorewise, though, it could be a twisted charr.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Maybe it's a mutually beneficial thing? Boneskinner drives people insane, which makes them easy prey to join the icebrood, so it's left alone? I'm curious of it's origins, and the wildlife situation of the region. We know that Orr was entirely Risen (wildlife, plants, and people), while the jungle had creatures and mordrem.

    If the boneskinner is sapient, then all it really needs is to refuse Jormag's whispers to avoid corruption, and be a good enough hunter for the icebrood to not attack it.

    On different topic than the boneskinner that's gotten everyone's attention, there's an interesting things of note:

    We see multiple individuals glowing red. There's the Kodan duo strike bosses, but in the trailer there's also another kodan at 0:38 and again at 0:58, and in the release page screenshots, there is an oversized Snow Leopard Form norn as well as a wolf form norn. I'm very curious what this affect is, as so far it's fully unhinted at entirely.

    Then the two new icebrood models. What's interesting about them is that they have a very similar glow as the above red glow, but it's blue. The same blue as the Icebrood Construct. In the trailer at 0:37 we see an old Icebrood model with this glow, and in the release page we have this guy who also appears inside the Icebrood Construct at 0:49 of the trailer.

    And the few shots we got of vaettir, they have the same style of glow... but green. Most notable at 0:40 but also at 0:31. The Boneskinner is also hued green, but lacks this particular style of glow.

    What's even more curious about these glows is that they're the same kind of effects as the new "Essence Manipulation" mastery which comes in traditional RGB colors.

    And here's something I note about that mastery shot:

    • Red beam used against a green-glowing Vaettir.
    • Blue beam used against a red-glowing Kodan.
    • Green beam used against a blue-glowing Icebrood.

    So it's a rocks-paper-scissors kind of setup using RGB color coordination by the looks of it. Evil spirits are green (necromancy?) - perhaps tied to the Boneskinner then who's also green - and are weak to the red beam. Evilized kodan/norn are red, and are weak to the blue beam (Icebrood essence?). Then the icebrood are blue, and weak to the green beam. Doesn't really play into the Primordus/Jormag weaknesses, so I'm rather curious what the essences are, but it seems related to why these kodan and norn are going berserk, what the Boneskinner is and how these Vaettir have remained uncorrupted in the Far Shiverpeaks.

    Incidentally, this observation may give a hint to the nature of the Boneskinner as being related to vaettir. Either a very powerful vaettir, or perhaps indeed a fallen Spirit of the Wild like Nulfastu.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    The essences are listed on the episode page as being "Learn to collect the essences of resilience, valor, and vigilance, then target enemies’ weaknesses and hit them where it hurts. "

    Resilience, Valor, and Vigilance, but we don't know what color is which one. I wonder, is there going to be another one of GW2's long running "immune to X colors, weak to Y color?" bit?

  • Yeah, I saw those names. But I think there's more to it than just those names because it's hard to picture the enemies (particularly vaettir) being associated with any of those names. Which would imply that either the showcase was just coincidence to be a cycle, or there's more to it than just those names.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yeah, I saw those names. But I think there's more to it than just those names because it's hard to picture the enemies (particularly vaettir) being associated with any of those names. Which would imply that either the showcase was just coincidence to be a cycle, or there's more to it than just those names.

    Or is it a case of "Use the essence that the enemy creature/person lacks"?

  • That's the outcome that doesn't make sense to me. I'd think both Icebrood and Vaettir lack "valor", after all.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    I'm reminded of something, can't quite place it though..

    "They'll betray you"

    "That voice...the one in the back of my head"

    "Build me an army worthy of Mordor.."

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yeah, I saw those names. But I think there's more to it than just those names because it's hard to picture the enemies (particularly vaettir) being associated with any of those names. Which would imply that either the showcase was just coincidence to be a cycle, or there's more to it than just those names.

    We got a little more detail about these essences, and the Vaettir's version of Valor, I think i'm starting to make sense of it though. The abilities these skills unlock like 'Shattered Psyche' and 'Night Terrors' don't sound like the benevolent forces each essence is named after. I think the idea is the essences are warped and corrupted into twisted versions of themselves. If you wanted to go further with my Wendigo comparison and even go so far as combine it with your ideas of the Spirit of the Wild, it stands to reason that a spirit might 'eject' the soul of their host in the same way as many Native American legends depict them. Further in addition to that the Spirit probably faced Jormag on it's rampage south and was corrupted in the process, which of itself shows great courage in the face of danger.

    So in that sense the aberrations of the forest might embody a twisted bravery, which would fit nicely with Jormags ability to warp peoples vices and virtues to do it's bidding.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The Boneskinner is an interesting creature, I think I might know where it's from based on it's model and concept art but i'm not entirely sure. It clearly draws some inspiration from Native American legends concerning the Wendigos of the colder climates. For those uninitiated the Wendigo was a creature of myth who was cursed to forever consume the flesh of others and to never be full, mainly because it's body would always grow with the excess of whatever they devoured. The host of the Wendigo spirit would as a result be something of a paradox, at once it would be growing larger and stronger with age, but it would also always look like it was dying. Exposed ribs, empty stomach, lanky bone ribbed limbs.

    Sometimes this might be more literal, the Wendigo in question might seem to be an actual walking corpse with a constant pallor of death as though it been left out in the cold. Often the Wendigo would share animalistic aspects whether those be fur, horns, a snout, or antlers. They might take on the visage akin to a deer, a wolf, or some other bestial animal. For this reason they are often described as giant skeletal merges of man and animal either walking upright or prowling like a beast. Elongated claws, sallow glowing eyes, and long tongues. Something you can see in the Boneskinners body, even the tongue can be observed when it's head splits open and it appears to vomit forth a nest of tendrils in it's throat.

    The exact nature of the Wendigo can vary but they are all tied to the taboo of cannibalism, often to survive. But they can also be tied to a desire to conquer and hoard wealth or resources. In this way the legend served as both a cautionary tale and an emphasis on both cooperation and moderation that was needed for the survival of the tribe. When a person displayed these vices the spirits of the forest could flow into their body, hijacking their flesh and transforming them into a monstrous reflection of their inner evils, doomed to hunt down and kill their former loved ones.

    Judging by the Boneskinner concept art it appears like the base creature for the Boneskinner was a charr, though it's body has long since 'evolved' past those easily recognizable features. Still if you wanted to create a creature that embodied the darker aspects of Charr society that we're exploring, the Wendigo spirit is a good choice for representing that insatiable bloodthirst, ruthlessness, and desire to conquer that they can exude. I am curious about that bone amulet around it's neck which appears to made of several different remains tied together. Did it make that for itself, or did someone put that amulet onto it?

    I'm not a Native American, so feel free to correct me if I got any elements of the stories wrong, but that's what this appears to be drawing from.

    The Wendigo is pretty much my favorite monster/myth/urban legend because it’s the only thing that actually unnerves me a bit. I feel slightly scared by it whereas other creatures are just cool to me. So I got kind of obsessed with it, I really hope we get some similar lore for the boneskinner. That would be just about peak epic IMO

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2019

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    The Boneskinner is an interesting creature, I think I might know where it's from based on it's model and concept art but i'm not entirely sure. It clearly draws some inspiration from Native American legends concerning the Wendigos of the colder climates. For those uninitiated the Wendigo was a creature of myth who was cursed to forever consume the flesh of others and to never be full, mainly because it's body would always grow with the excess of whatever they devoured. The host of the Wendigo spirit would as a result be something of a paradox, at once it would be growing larger and stronger with age, but it would also always look like it was dying. Exposed ribs, empty stomach, lanky bone ribbed limbs.

    Sometimes this might be more literal, the Wendigo in question might seem to be an actual walking corpse with a constant pallor of death as though it been left out in the cold. Often the Wendigo would share animalistic aspects whether those be fur, horns, a snout, or antlers. They might take on the visage akin to a deer, a wolf, or some other bestial animal. For this reason they are often described as giant skeletal merges of man and animal either walking upright or prowling like a beast. Elongated claws, sallow glowing eyes, and long tongues. Something you can see in the Boneskinners body, even the tongue can be observed when it's head splits open and it appears to vomit forth a nest of tendrils in it's throat.

    The exact nature of the Wendigo can vary but they are all tied to the taboo of cannibalism, often to survive. But they can also be tied to a desire to conquer and hoard wealth or resources. In this way the legend served as both a cautionary tale and an emphasis on both cooperation and moderation that was needed for the survival of the tribe. When a person displayed these vices the spirits of the forest could flow into their body, hijacking their flesh and transforming them into a monstrous reflection of their inner evils, doomed to hunt down and kill their former loved ones.

    Judging by the Boneskinner concept art it appears like the base creature for the Boneskinner was a charr, though it's body has long since 'evolved' past those easily recognizable features. Still if you wanted to create a creature that embodied the darker aspects of Charr society that we're exploring, the Wendigo spirit is a good choice for representing that insatiable bloodthirst, ruthlessness, and desire to conquer that they can exude. I am curious about that bone amulet around it's neck which appears to made of several different remains tied together. Did it make that for itself, or did someone put that amulet onto it?

    I'm not a Native American, so feel free to correct me if I got any elements of the stories wrong, but that's what this appears to be drawing from.

    The Wendigo is pretty much my favorite monster/myth/urban legend because it’s the only thing that actually unnerves me a bit. I feel slightly scared by it whereas other creatures are just cool to me. So I got kind of obsessed with it, I really hope we get some similar lore for the boneskinner. That would be just about peak epic IMO

    If you haven't read Algernon Blackwood's 'Wendigo' (originally written in1910 and just before Lovecraft had his work published), then I highly recommend it. It is quite unnerving. You can see the early inspiration for the horror of Lovecraft and contemporaries

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • I wonder if the whispers aren't just in the Commander's head. What if Aurene is the one addressed here, especially when we hear: "They'll betray you?" Maybe redditors are right to think that the original icebrood trailer, in which Jormag declares, "You don't fear death", is addressed to Aurene, who Jormag considers nothing more than a "champion".

    What if Aurene killed all of those charr at the Vigil outpost? Maybe something happened and she lost control of herself?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2019

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I wonder if the whispers aren't just in the Commander's head. What if Aurene is the one addressed here, especially when we hear: "They'll betray you?" Maybe redditors are right to think that the original icebrood trailer, in which Jormag declares, "You don't fear death", is addressed to Aurene, who Jormag considers nothing more than a "champion".

    What if Aurene killed all of those charr at the Vigil outpost? Maybe something happened and she lost control of herself?

    I feel like I remember one of the devs saying the voice was aimed at Bangar in the original trailer.

    And they can't be in the Commanders head only since the trailer actually explains (via Braham) they are in others too

    If it was Aurene, the damage would be vastly greater than a few dead bodies. She's way more powerful than that when she's in control - out of control that fort would be obliterated

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2019

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    If it was Aurene, the damage would be vastly greater than a few dead bodies. She's way more powerful than that when she's in control - out of control that fort would be obliterated

    Sure, they probably will maintain in "shes too busy cleasing her Grandfather brand" to avoid Dragon Ball Z effect. Now shes a elder dragon, a creature capable to make even the Gods scary. Plus shes had the remains of Balthazar/Joko magic. I wonder if the true plot to be revealed is that Jormag is who had fear of Aurene, and in some way(whispers) he made Bangar fear her too.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Valmir.4590Valmir.4590 Member ✭✭
    edited November 14, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Divine Monk.2401 said:
    Wasnt wolverine a spirit that was also consumed? I mean owl wasnt the only one if i recall.

    Dolyak, Owl, Wolverine, and Eagle are the four that directly turned to fight off Jormag and delay the dragon long enough for the other spirits to guide the Norn south to safety.

    Owl is confirmed dead/consumed, the other three are "unknown" as they haven't had a havroun for a long time. Shamans, but no Havroun.

    Dolyak/Minortaur returns at the start of the Norn character storyline (I don't remember which). however, I don't remember if it is said that Minortaur is indeed the one who fought Jormag or not at that time.

    But I do love the idea of a "rotten" Spirit of the Wild, what happens when their lessons are corrupted/twiwted to fit some other ends. Out of all the magical/spititual entities of Tyria, the Spirits are perhaps the most mysterious left. Their relation to their species is left dubious, they have an innate connection to the Mist and abilities to allow some of their followers to walk in them freely and at will... Just like the Norns and the Kodans, really, whose origins and past are still quite unknown.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Valmir.4590 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Divine Monk.2401 said:
    Wasnt wolverine a spirit that was also consumed? I mean owl wasnt the only one if i recall.

    Dolyak, Owl, Wolverine, and Eagle are the four that directly turned to fight off Jormag and delay the dragon long enough for the other spirits to guide the Norn south to safety.

    Owl is confirmed dead/consumed, the other three are "unknown" as they haven't had a havroun for a long time. Shamans, but no Havroun.

    Dolyak/Minortaur returns at the start of the Norn character storyline (I don't remember which). however, I don't remember if it is said that Minortaur is indeed the one who fought Jormag or not at that time.

    It's Miontaur, who is indeed considered separate from Dolyak, and not one of the ones who held the line in the north... although, now that the Sons have tried to feed him to an icebrood, I wouldn't be surprised to catch him helping us this time 'round.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Valmir.4590 said:
    Dolyak/Minortaur returns at the start of the Norn character storyline (I don't remember which). however, I don't remember if it is said that Minortaur is indeed the one who fought Jormag or not at that time.

    But I do love the idea of a "rotten" Spirit of the Wild, what happens when their lessons are corrupted/twiwted to fit some other ends. Out of all the magical/spititual entities of Tyria, the Spirits are perhaps the most mysterious left. Their relation to their species is left dubious, they have an innate connection to the Mist and abilities to allow some of their followers to walk in them freely and at will... Just like the Norns and the Kodans, really, whose origins and past are still quite unknown.

    Dolyak shares its name and position with Ox, not Minotaur. Dolyak/Ox has remained silent since Jormag's rise, with Forgal's father (presumably "Kern") being the last shaman of Dolyak/Ox.

    As for rotten Spirits of the Wild, we actually have one example of what happens to them:

    Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next.

    Beware! Nulfastu retains great power and should be avoided by all but the most heroic or foolhardy Norn. He can manipulate the minds of the living and is constantly surrounded by the spirits of those he has trapped. The lone survivor of an encounter with Nulfastu reported he appeared as a simple rabbit before wresting control of her mind.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nulfastu_Earthbound

    It's unclear what Nulfastu was before becoming twisted and fallen, but it was like a powerful vaettir/Nightmare (whom are the souls of the dead turned vile) afterwards.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I wonder if Jormag helped the Elder Races forge the bloodstone? What if the Elder Dragons and the Elder Races formed a truce when the ED's revealed that the DSD must flood the land in order to purge his torment? All of the terrestrial Elder Dragons were in on it. As part of the deal Jormag gave the races artifacts like the Sanguinary blade, Edge of Destiny etc. Could this be why Kralk was mad at Glint? She allowed the Margonites to be destroyed, in so doing rendering the Crystal Sea a Crystal Desert, preventing the cycle of torment resolution and forcing the DSD's hand?

    Nah it didn't, The Bloodstone was made by the Seers specifically to hide magic from the Elder dragons and their corruption.. so it's very unlikely Jormag or any Elder Dragon for that matter was involved with it's creation.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Loesh.4697 said:
    Judging by the Boneskinner concept art it appears like the base creature for the Boneskinner was a charr, though it's body has long since 'evolved' past those easily recognizable features. Still if you wanted to create a creature that embodied the darker aspects of Charr society that we're exploring, the Wendigo spirit is a good choice for representing that insatiable bloodthirst, ruthlessness, and desire to conquer that they can exude. I am curious about that bone amulet around it's neck which appears to made of several different remains tied together. Did it make that for itself, or did someone put that amulet onto it?

    Missed this bit before, but I had a similar thought that it was based off of the charr rigging. I was thinking that they took a charr and made a new animation set for being on all four. However, others reminded me of the Vinetooth rigging (also used by Awakened Abominations) which seems more likely considering it. Lorewise, though, it could be a twisted charr.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Maybe it's a mutually beneficial thing? Boneskinner drives people insane, which makes them easy prey to join the icebrood, so it's left alone? I'm curious of it's origins, and the wildlife situation of the region. We know that Orr was entirely Risen (wildlife, plants, and people), while the jungle had creatures and mordrem.

    If the boneskinner is sapient, then all it really needs is to refuse Jormag's whispers to avoid corruption, and be a good enough hunter for the icebrood to not attack it.

    On different topic than the boneskinner that's gotten everyone's attention, there's an interesting things of note:

    We see multiple individuals glowing red. There's the Kodan duo strike bosses, but in the trailer there's also another kodan at 0:38 and again at 0:58, and in the release page screenshots, there is an oversized Snow Leopard Form norn as well as a wolf form norn. I'm very curious what this affect is, as so far it's fully unhinted at entirely.

    Then the two new icebrood models. What's interesting about them is that they have a very similar glow as the above red glow, but it's blue. The same blue as the Icebrood Construct. In the trailer at 0:37 we see an old Icebrood model with this glow, and in the release page we have this guy who also appears inside the Icebrood Construct at 0:49 of the trailer.

    And the few shots we got of vaettir, they have the same style of glow... but green. Most notable at 0:40 but also at 0:31. The Boneskinner is also hued green, but lacks this particular style of glow.

    What's even more curious about these glows is that they're the same kind of effects as the new "Essence Manipulation" mastery which comes in traditional RGB colors.

    And here's something I note about that mastery shot:

    • Red beam used against a green-glowing Vaettir.
    • Blue beam used against a red-glowing Kodan.
    • Green beam used against a blue-glowing Icebrood.

    So it's a rocks-paper-scissors kind of setup using RGB color coordination by the looks of it. Evil spirits are green (necromancy?) - perhaps tied to the Boneskinner then who's also green - and are weak to the red beam. Evilized kodan/norn are red, and are weak to the blue beam (Icebrood essence?). Then the icebrood are blue, and weak to the green beam. Doesn't really play into the Primordus/Jormag weaknesses, so I'm rather curious what the essences are, but it seems related to why these kodan and norn are going berserk, what the Boneskinner is and how these Vaettir have remained uncorrupted in the Far Shiverpeaks.

    Incidentally, this observation may give a hint to the nature of the Boneskinner as being related to vaettir. Either a very powerful vaettir, or perhaps indeed a fallen Spirit of the Wild like Nulfastu.

    Definitely appears to be a connection between colours and beam weaknesses, I think you more or less nailed it there.

    This appears to be a running trend in Gw2 with these 3 colours, if I recall the Vale Guardian had 3 Guardians with it using the same colours and going back to LWS1 we had Scarlets 3 Watchknight bosses in LA using the same 3 colours too..
    The 3 WvW colours, Ooze pit event areas.. there are probably more examples that I just can't recall at the moment.

    I like how these glows kinda remind me of how Gw1 boss creatures used to have a coloured effect on them.. the colour in their case representing their class.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wish they'd have made it yellow instead of green though.
    Not only does it look better than green, but with yellow we would have all three primary colours used by that feature.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2019

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I wish they'd have made it yellow instead of green though.
    Not only does it look better than green, but with yellow we would have all three primary colours used by that feature.

    Primary colors of light are red, green, and blue, which is why that combination is used all the time.

    You're thinking of pigmentation colors, which is often represented as blue, yellow, red, but is technically cyan, yellow, magenta. Would be interesting to see some CMYK color combinations now and then though - the Halloween Polyluminescent is almost there by having cyan and black, shame they used orange and green instead of red and yellow.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It's unclear what Nulfastu was before becoming twisted and fallen

    Obviously a house cat.

    I wish I knew I had a signature so I could be upset about not seeing it.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    Are you guys going to play this episode with your Norn?

    I have a Raven-blessed Herald Norn that I created a long time ago, and she has Stag racial armor and Nevermore too.

    Anybody else does something similar to kind of get in mood? Or you just go with the shiniest Ice Encasement Asura or something? :D

    I also particulary want to play for 2nd time with my Sylvari to see how they interact with the whispers of yet another Dragon.

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • I'll definitively polish my main Raven-touched Scrapper Norn !

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Are you guys going to play this episode with your Norn?

    I have a Raven-blessed Herald Norn that I created a long time ago, and she has Stag racial armor and Nevermore too.

    Anybody else does something similar to kind of get in mood? Or you just go with the shiniest Ice Encasement Asura or something? :D

    I also particulary want to play for 2nd time with my Sylvari to see how they interact with the whispers of yet another Dragon.

    My main is my Norn (and my Multiverse gaming character for all games) so I'll be completing it first on him followed by my Noble Human.

    After that, I'm tempted to skip some story stuff on older toons to get them into it, but I don't really like doing that. My Norn Rev (bottom pic) may be an exception though

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    He looks awesome!

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:

    He looks awesome!

    Yes.

    He is the Hero Tyria needs, even if not the one it deserves

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Are you guys going to play this episode with your Norn?

    I have a Raven-blessed Herald Norn that I created a long time ago, and she has Stag racial armor and Nevermore too.

    Anybody else does something similar to kind of get in mood? Or you just go with the shiniest Ice Encasement Asura or something? :D

    I also particulary want to play for 2nd time with my Sylvari to see how they interact with the whispers of yet another Dragon.

    I wont be, my Norn sits abandoned at level 10 cause i cant bring myself to level another Character xD ill be playing as my Charr!

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Are you guys going to play this episode with your Norn?

    I have a Raven-blessed Herald Norn that I created a long time ago, and she has Stag racial armor and Nevermore too.

    Anybody else does something similar to kind of get in mood? Or you just go with the shiniest Ice Encasement Asura or something? :D

    I also particulary want to play for 2nd time with my Sylvari to see how they interact with the whispers of yet another Dragon.

    I wont be, my Norn sits abandoned at level 10 cause i cant bring myself to level another Character xD ill be playing as my Charr!

    Sounds good to me :)

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm going to play with human and charr first, as well. My norns need a bit more levelling~
    Also, I want to see how charrs transition from the prologue to episode 1. Maybe they also have specific dialogue.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Didn't they gave up on special dialogues for specific groups?
    If not, there are a lot of missed opportunities regarding Balthazar and human players that chose him.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Didn't they gave up on special dialogues for specific groups?
    If not, there are a lot of missed opportunities regarding Balthazar and human players that chose him.

    there were some dialogues if you picked Kormir or Balthazar as your god, but not too much. But you know, if you play lore-wise, then you want to know every single detail, I like to go for theme so there is a big chance I get something extra, like as a charr in the Prologue I got a different letter from Bangar for example. There are small easter eggs that I learnt I don't want to miss, it builds immersion for my experience and brings more value to the story.
    Hopefully my Raven-blessed Norn will get to hear more from the Raven spirit or something.

    example: That's Kormir! She blessed me at birth, but I never thought I'd—hail to you, Goddess of Truth. (Facing the Truth as Human blessed by Kormir)

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    there were some dialogues if you picked Kormir or Balthazar as your god, but not too much.

    I didn't notice any difference my Balthazar-Warrior and Grenth-Revenant though.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    there were some dialogues if you picked Kormir or Balthazar as your god, but not too much.

    I didn't notice any difference my Balthazar-Warrior and Grenth-Revenant though.

    There's a minor difference the first time you meet him in PoF- "Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and enjoyed your blessings for as long as I can remember. I won't allow you to commit more atrocities. If you won't talk, we have to treat you as the enemy." Other humans replace the sentence about praying to him with "Your war will kill everybody but the Elder Dragons."

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    Didn't they gave up on special dialogues for specific groups?
    If not, there are a lot of missed opportunities regarding Balthazar and human players that chose him.

    Rather than saying they gave up, it'd be more accurate to say they had minimal variance due to the effort and cost. However, with Bound by Blood, they had quite a number of variances in dialogue for charr, and even more for Blood Legion charr than Ash or Iron.

    I played through Bound by Blood on my Ash charr and actually felt like I was playing an Ash charr, whereas for other races it felt a lot more generic (reasonably so, though I would've liked more variance for humans).

    For Path of Fire and meeting the gods, there was one line variance for Balthazar-blessed humans during The Sacrifice and during Facing the Truth there's one line that's varied quite a bit:

    If human blessed by Kormir:
    Character Name: That's Kormir! She blessed me at birth, but I never thought I'd—hail to you, Goddess of Truth.
    If human not blessed by Kormir:
    <Character Name: Kormir... I've seen statues and shrines, but I never imagined—hail, Goddess of Truth. We need your help.
    If charr:
    Character Name: That must be Kormir. Hail to you, "Goddess of Truth." We need your help.
    If norn:
    Character Nam>: This must be Kormir. Hail to you, Goddess of Truth. We need your help.
    Otherwise:
    Character Name: That must be Kormir. Hail to you, Goddess of Truth. We need your help.

    The charr was my favorite because it was delivered with sarcasm when getting to the title. But as you see, the norn line is varied, but just "that" to "this". This is how most line variance occurs throughout the post-PS storylines (exception being sylvari during HoT). Minor things that don't really reflect the PC's race, or is just a variance of exclamation (e.g., "By the Pale Tree!" gets turned into "By the Six!" or "By the Spirits!" etc.).

    To say there were missed opportunities with Kormir and Balthazar is an understatement. But they were fairly minimal about it in PoF and S4, far more than HoT and S3, and even that was minimal compared to what charr got in Bound by Blood. So hopefully they'll keep that up with charr and make more variances for norn in the future episodes.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Are you guys going to play this episode with your Norn?

    I have a Raven-blessed Herald Norn that I created a long time ago, and she has Stag racial armor and Nevermore too.

    Anybody else does something similar to kind of get in mood? Or you just go with the shiniest Ice Encasement Asura or something? :D

    I also particulary want to play for 2nd time with my Sylvari to see how they interact with the whispers of yet another Dragon.

    I may or may not play the episode with my Norn warmaster, but her story will definitely involve going up there. I'll have her unlock the map at least :).

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A small teaser of the tomorrow's episode

    and there was one of music tracks teased during the livestream, if you want to listen to:

    The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.

    H. P. Lovecraft

  • Given their sort of Celtic/Scandinavian hybrid look, any creature with horns like that is going to make me think of Cernunnos and other pagan entities (or Leshy) rather than something from Native American culture, but given the cold climate Norns live in perhaps they have been inspired by Inuit lore, like with the Iljiraq, which has caribou antlers. But I can't deny it's also very obviously inspired by Algernon Blackwood's version of "Wendigo", in which he apparently made it a mishmash of several First Nations cultural beliefs. (Lovecraft talked up his work so I think people aren't too far off making that comparison!)
    I know it's an uphill battle because people love the deer-zombie demon, (superficially I do too-- as its own thing) but that is not what a Windigo is. That stag-horned creature people always draw is the result of Non-Native people taking things from Native culture and changing it drastically to suit their tastes.
    This video breaks it down pretty well, with one correction I'll add-- the antlered "Wendigo" more likely came from the Matt Fox illustration on the titular novella, as the inaccurate antlered depiction makes an appearance in an earlier movie.

    (I'm not Native either, but I've seen several complaints from Native Americans about this very subject!)

    This thing also kind of reminds me a little bit of the creature from "The Ritual", but just a little. I really hope this latest arc gives more development to the Norn, I like them well enough but they need some serious attention when it comes to their identity...