Raids-What are they? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raids-What are they?

Weird question. What are raids?
I remember doing a break from GW2 and I came back and there they were.
You seemingly need atleast 40 people, fully asc gear and every single build must be perfect in order to achieve.
Pretty complicated
So I never really touched em. Now I wonder if they're worth investing into ,what do you guys think?

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    Assuming serious..

    10 man instances that require players to understand their builds/skills/rotations whilst working effectively as a team

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • They are 10 man instanced content with weekly rewards. Considered the hardest pve content in the game. Mostly above T4 fractals, some but not all above 100cm.
    They are not that hard but you cannot go in blind. Some preparations are needed.
    If you want to know more, just ask and I will try to answer.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's literally the hardest PvE content in the game.
    The amount of players who never will be successful in raids is possibly over 80%.
    And (as far as I know) the dedicated raiding community is shrinking.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids are not difficult when you go in with having knowledge of what boons, conditions, stats, gear and cc means and does. Then all you need to know is how to be effective and what the mechanics of the boss are. boom done.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2019

    @Mister XY.9536 said:
    You seemingly need atleast 40 people,

    10 people

    @Mister XY.9536 said:
    fully asc gear

    Not true, raids are so forgiving, the small difference between exotic and ascended isn't going to be too bad. Especially for healers, ascended makes very little difference.

    @Mister XY.9536 said:
    and every single build must be perfect in order to achieve.

    Builds need to be reasonable. They need to have a purpose, a role, and fill that role.

    @Mister XY.9536 said:
    Pretty complicated

    There are 20+ fights. Some are as easy as open world fights like octovine, for example escort and mursaat overseer. Others like dhuum are fairly difficult and require some actual coordination.

    @Mister XY.9536 said:
    So I never really touched em. Now I wonder if they're worth investing into ,what do you guys think?

    I wouldn't bother investing in them (I have 2k+ raid boss kills, so definitely an experienced perspective). The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore. Also, Anet is perpetually making the same mistakes. For example, in wing 4 there was unskippable cutscenes and dialogue, players complained and it was finally made skippable. And then Anet made that exact same mistake in wing 7. And worse yet, wing 7 isn't a short cutscene. Your sitting there for over a minute waiting for the dialogue to end. If your doing that every week it gets annoying. Now, that alone isn't enough to say, 'never raid'. But it's the sort of thing that only happens when a developer has no one who plays their game.

    Also, they heard complains that kiting at deimos is boring, and so they put kiting in at dhuum. They heard that was boring, so they put it into qadim. They heard that was boring, and so they put 3 kiters into qadim 2.0.

    They heard complains about how boring it was to have long events focused on trash mobs, so they put the worst offender in wing 7 too.

    Not only is Anet not learning from their mistakes, they are getting worse at making the same mistakes.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore.

    Maybe Arenanet is also asking themselves WHY they should bother supporting raiding anymore.
    With all the requirements imposed by "expert raiders", the LFG raiding panel mostly full of sales and no training groups in the LFG, it looks pretty sad for raiding.

    Combined with the already small and (apparently) diminishing raiding 'community', I wonder if Arenanet decided to put raids on hold.
    Strike missions seem to be intended as the new hard endgame content, too.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2019

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore.

    Maybe Arenanet is also asking themselves WHY they should bother supporting raiding anymore.
    With all the requirements imposed by "expert raiders", the LFG raiding panel mostly full of sales and no training groups in the LFG, it looks pretty sad for raiding.

    https://discordapp.com/invite/RQEGHm8
    at the time of this writing (1 p.m. German time, CET, GMT+1 UCT+1), 719 players online, 2,868 members.

    https://discordapp.com/invite/nZg52r3
    at the time of this writing 1,053 players online, 5,314 members.

    and that's during lunch on a work day friday.

    LFGs up at right this point in time on EU:
    2 for wing 3
    2 raid seller advertisement
    1 guild looking for new raid members

    Also the "requirements" you speak off are setup by nearly all levels of skill past training runs. You can complain about expert raiders as much as you want. Every group which has even a minimum amount of experience eventually moves on to post reqirements because it gets tiresome to start from scratch every week. That's what training runs are for, and those can also be found on the linked discord servers.

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I wouldn't bother investing in them (I have 2k+ raid boss kills, so definitely an experienced perspective). The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore. Also, Anet is perpetually making the same mistakes. For example, in wing 4 there was unskippable cutscenes and dialogue, players complained and it was finally made skippable. And then Anet made that exact same mistake in wing 7. And worse yet, wing 7 isn't a short cutscene. Your sitting there for over a minute waiting for the dialogue to end. If your doing that every week it gets annoying. Now, that alone isn't enough to say, 'never raid'. But it's the sort of thing that only happens when a developer has no one who plays their game.

    I am a bit confused, you have over 2k kills, yet can not recommend the content to new players? I'd say that is a very strong recommendation for players to try the content, it seems to have entertained you long enough or not?

    As far as cutscenes, leave the instance and re-enter for wing 7. I'm personally getting tired of this complaint. Yes, this is no perfect fix, but it will shave 1.5 minutes of waiting off. If you can't be bothered to use a work around, then you get to wait.

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Also, they heard complains that kiting at deimos is boring, and so they put kiting in at dhuum. They heard that was boring, so they put it into qadim. They heard that was boring, and so they put 3 kiters into qadim 2.0.

    They heard complains about how boring it was to have long events focused on trash mobs, so they put the worst offender in wing 7 too.

    Not only is Anet not learning from their mistakes, they are getting worse at making the same mistakes.

    The probleme here is:
    Having unique mechanics for boss fights which players need to take care of are required to make fights diverse and diffferent. You are complaining as though every single fight since Deimos had similar mechanics to hand kiting. Completely ignoring the element of personal or single players responsibility would severely limit the ability to create new and different fights. Or would you rather have more fights similar to Gorseval and KC? That seems a lot more boring to me.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭

    An option to let the Toxicity of the Community grow to its limits

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are fun with friends.
    IF you have friends or know a group who does not mind showing you the ropes and training you along the way they can be fun but challenging end game content.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I wouldn't bother investing in them (I have 2k+ raid boss kills, so definitely an experienced perspective). The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore. Also, Anet is perpetually making the same mistakes. For example, in wing 4 there was unskippable cutscenes and dialogue, players complained and it was finally made skippable. And then Anet made that exact same mistake in wing 7. And worse yet, wing 7 isn't a short cutscene. Your sitting there for over a minute waiting for the dialogue to end. If your doing that every week it gets annoying. Now, that alone isn't enough to say, 'never raid'. But it's the sort of thing that only happens when a developer has no one who plays their game.

    I am a bit confused, you have over 2k kills, yet can not recommend the content to new players? I'd say that is a very strong recommendation for players to try the content, it seems to have entertained you long enough or not?

    Its a confusing statement, I understand. Allow me to further elaborate, you gotta understand, I joined a guild that had 9 other casual raiders at around 50 LI. I stuck with them until about 150 LI (I think?). Then I joined a more serious static, been playing with them ever since. Of course I also did some pugging along the way, but most of my kills have come with my static.

    I'm a very social guy. I would say I'm very extroverted. The majority of the fun was really the aspect of socializing. Talking in discord, kitten talking each other about dps, trash talking and all the like. Additionally, some people like gaming that is flexible, so that they can fit gaming into their life around their other obligations. However, I'm doing a phd in experimental physics atm (have been for 5 years now). Experimental physics is something that can take over your life, and you get a very unpredictable schedule, because of the nature of doing experiments. Worse yet, I work in a small lab, so I work alone a lot of the time. It can be quite lonely, and having a set schedule where I knew I would get to socialize with some friends online was much needed stability in the chaos of grad school.

    However, very little of the things I enjoyed about raiding were tied to Anet. In fact almost all of it is coming from third party software (discord/teamspeak,dps meters, arc build templates - which naturally goes hand in hand with trying to beat you friend's dps). There are lots of ways to get weekly scheduled socialization with friends. Some of my friends have a weekly DnD night. Some have weekly ultimate frisby. When I was yougner, I had sports teams like football and bowling leagues.

    So, the things I like most about raids, are not exclusive to raids. And the way I see it, raids are getting worse and worse. So yeah, OP asked if I would recommend them, I would not. If you want challenge, go play darksouls or super meatboy, if you want socialization, work towards that directly.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as cutscenes, leave the instance and re-enter for wing 7. I'm personally getting tired of this complaint.

    I'm personally getting tired of ANet making the same mistakes. Its a valid criticism, and the point of this post is to inform OP. Its an example of how Anet isn't learning from their mistakes, and actually getting worse.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Having unique mechanics for boss fights which players need to take care of are required to make fights diverse and diffferent. You are complaining as though every single fight since Deimos had similar mechanics to hand kiting. Completely ignoring the element of personal or single players responsibility would severely limit the ability to create new and different fights. Or would you rather have more fights similar to Gorseval and KC? That seems a lot more boring to me.

    No, not every single fight since deimos has had similar mechanics, however every single raid wing's final boss since deimos has had a kiter role where the kiter plays a boring repetitive single player mini game separated from the rest of the group.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I wouldn't bother investing in them (I have 2k+ raid boss kills, so definitely an experienced perspective). The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore. Also, Anet is perpetually making the same mistakes. For example, in wing 4 there was unskippable cutscenes and dialogue, players complained and it was finally made skippable. And then Anet made that exact same mistake in wing 7. And worse yet, wing 7 isn't a short cutscene. Your sitting there for over a minute waiting for the dialogue to end. If your doing that every week it gets annoying. Now, that alone isn't enough to say, 'never raid'. But it's the sort of thing that only happens when a developer has no one who plays their game.

    I am a bit confused, you have over 2k kills, yet can not recommend the content to new players? I'd say that is a very strong recommendation for players to try the content, it seems to have entertained you long enough or not?

    Its a confusing statement, I understand. Allow me to further elaborate, you gotta understand, I joined a guild that had 9 other casual raiders at around 50 LI. I stuck with them until about 150 LI (I think?). Then I joined a more serious static, been playing with them ever since. Of course I also did some pugging along the way, but most of my kills have come with my static.

    I'm a very social guy. I would say I'm very extroverted. The majority of the fun was really the aspect of socializing. Talking in discord, kitten talking each other about dps, trash talking and all the like. Additionally, some people like gaming that is flexible, so that they can fit gaming into their life around their other obligations. However, I'm doing a phd in experimental physics atm (have been for 5 years now). Experimental physics is something that can take over your life, and you get a very unpredictable schedule, because of the nature of doing experiments. Worse yet, I work in a small lab, so I work alone a lot of the time. It can be quite lonely, and having a set schedule where I knew I would get to socialize with some friends online was much needed stability in the chaos of grad school.

    However, very little of the things I enjoyed about raiding were tied to Anet. In fact almost all of it is coming from third party software (discord/teamspeak,dps meters, arc build templates - which naturally goes hand in hand with trying to beat you friend's dps). There are lots of ways to get weekly scheduled socialization with friends. Some of my friends have a weekly DnD night. Some have weekly ultimate frisby. When I was yougner, I had sports teams like football and bowling leagues.

    So, the things I like most about raids, are not exclusive to raids. And the way I see it, raids are getting worse and worse. So yeah, OP asked if I would recommend them, I would not. If you want challenge, go play darksouls or super meatboy, if you want socialization, work towards that directly.

    You will find that this holds true for just about all raid content in any MMO. The main difference is: most other MMOs reward players with progressive loot to also fullfill a need for sense of progression. Since that is not the case here, all you are left is with the progression (on the first 1-2 kills), socializing and team building.

    Think of it this way: by telling people to not raid, you are essentially discouraging them from making the same bonds you made. Taking on challenging content can form different types of bonds than just hanging out in voice chat or in the same guild. As is evident by the thousands and thousands of players wasting away as solo players in MMOs. Challenging content demands socializing (see FF11 where past level 35-40 if I recall correctly wou had to group to make any meaningful progress).

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    As far as cutscenes, leave the instance and re-enter for wing 7. I'm personally getting tired of this complaint.

    I'm personally getting tired of ANet making the same mistakes. Its a valid criticism, and the point of this post is to inform OP. Its an example of how Anet isn't learning from their mistakes, and actually getting worse.

    Sure, it's valid criticism.

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Having unique mechanics for boss fights which players need to take care of are required to make fights diverse and diffferent. You are complaining as though every single fight since Deimos had similar mechanics to hand kiting. Completely ignoring the element of personal or single players responsibility would severely limit the ability to create new and different fights. Or would you rather have more fights similar to Gorseval and KC? That seems a lot more boring to me.

    No, not every single fight since deimos has had similar mechanics, however every single raid wing's final boss since deimos has had a kiter role where the kiter plays a boring repetitive single player mini game separated from the rest of the group.

    Personal responsibility is one of the most challenging thing to add into an encounter. That's what makes wing bosses so hard. For any other case where more than 1 or 2 people had meaningful responsibilities, the boss became insanely hard (see Dhuum). It should come as no surprise that wing bosses are often designed with the highest challenge in every field, otherwise you'd end up with something like Cairn as a wing boss encounter. Also you are throwing a very wide net when talking about kiters. The variety in objectives here is quite large.

  • big strike missions

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Think of it this way: by telling people to not raid, you are essentially discouraging them from making the same bonds you made.

    I don't see it that way, I said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    if you want socialization, work towards that directly.

    As you pointed out, many people play gw2 as a solo experience. If your looking for that socialization, raiding in gw2 is an indirect way to get there, with a low chance of success. Most players never join a static, they just pug. I think your making the assumption that OP is going to play gw2 no matter what, and so raiding in gw2 is the only option to get that socialization.

    I don't view it that way. If OP wants socialization they can find a weekly dnd group, or a weekly poker group, or a bowling league, or a rock climbing club, or just make friends in real life and go do whatever. Obviously video games often appeal to people who are naturally shy in real life, but even if you want to take the route of socialization through video games, in particular raids; I think there are better options. If you want to raid in a static group for years, you're probably better off going to a raid centric game like WoW or Final fantasy.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Think of it this way: by telling people to not raid, you are essentially discouraging them from making the same bonds you made.

    I don't see it that way, I said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    if you want socialization, work towards that directly.

    As you pointed out, many people play gw2 as a solo experience. If your looking for that socialization, raiding in gw2 is an indirect way to get there, with a low chance of success. Most players never join a static, they just pug. I think your making the assumption that OP is going to play gw2 no matter what, and so raiding in gw2 is the only option to get that socialization.

    No, I clearly explained that I believe that necessity often leads to results which otherwise might not be accomplished. Interacting with others is a necessity for certain content. It automatically leads to interactions which can result in more social interactions with others.

    I never said that this was the only way. I did pointed out that some players who are not forced to socialize or interact with others chose to never do so.

    Using those 2 points of reference, I'd say having content which requires players to deal with others in a MMORPG is beneficial.

    @thrag.9740 said:
    I don't view it that way. If OP wants socialization they can find a weekly dnd group, or a weekly poker group, or a bowling league, or a rock climbing club, or just make friends in real life and go do whatever.

    Yes, or they could chase avenues in GW2 if they are spending their leisure time in this game. Not sure where you were going with this. My issue is with your reasoning that after over 2 thousand boss kills and obviously some positive interactions during that time, you can not recommend this content.

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Obviously video games often appeal to people who are naturally shy in real life, but even if you want to take the route of socialization through video games, in particular raids; I think there are better options. If you want to raid in a static group for years, you're probably better off going to a raid centric game like WoW or Final fantasy.

    Sure, but this is not about which games do raids better. This is about if a player who enjoys GW2 should engage in the content in this game. There is a difference between saying:
    If you want to raid, I'd recommend playing XYZ.

    or saying:
    I can't recommend raids in this game.

    EDIT:
    I'll explain why I think this is an issue for me. I constantly see people complain about things along the lines of: Oh I've spent x-amount of hours on this game (often in the hundreds or thousands) but it's total trash , or similar reasonings. Many judge things based on their personal, in that moment, mood. If you've spent thousands of hours on something, but you can't recommend it, chances are you've burned out rather that the game has fundamentally become insanely bad (though that can happen). It's unfair to new or uninformed players to not take a step back and try to be objective. I for example have spent thousands of hours in WoW in the past, would I play it again? No. Would I still recommend it to others? Absolutely.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'll explain why I think this is an issue for me. I constantly see people complain about things along the lines of: Oh I've spent x-amount of hours on this game (often in the hundreds or thousands) but it's total trash , or similar reasonings. Many judge things based on their personal, in that moment, mood. If you've spent thousands of hours on something, but you can't recommend it, chances are you've burned out rather that the game has fundamentally become insanely bad (though that can happen). It's unfair to new or uninformed players to not take a step back and try to be objective. I for example have spent thousands of hours in WoW in the past, would I play it again? No. Would I still recommend it to others? Absolutely.

    Unfortunately it isn't a temporary mood. I've wanted to quit gw2 for a long time, at least 6 months, and I taken breaks before in the past. The only reason I log in is the weekly raids, and I don't do that because I love the content. I don't like the boring slog of spirit woods. I don't love the afk time in trio. I don't love the rng nature of soulless horror, or the boring gate event in w7.

    I don't log into gw2 to play gw2, and I haven't for a very long time. I log into gw2 to play with my friends, and many of them do the same thing. If all 9 of them said, 'hey we are switching to destiny'. I would switch with them, and I wouldn't look back at gw2.

    Additionally, a large chunk of my playtime happened during the era of build templates. I.e. actual build templates provided by arcdps, not loadouts that are over monetized. Meaning the quality of the product now is markably lower than a lot of what I experienced. And as I said, I see Anet making the same mistakes in worse and worse fashion. I see the quality of gw2's raids going down. Wing 7 was pushing it, but the build templates is the final straw to me, I would not recommend them anymore.

    Take issue with it all you want, its my opinion and it won't magically change. If you think I've done a disservice to OP by not recommending raids, please recommend them yourself. Because in this thread, despite attacking my stance endlessly, you're own opinion isn't clear to me.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Take issue with it all you want, its my opinion and it won't magically change. If you think I've done a disservice to OP by not recommending raids, please recommend them yourself. Because in this thread, despite attacking my stance endlessly, you're own opinion isn't clear to me.

    Sure, I'm aproximately at the same amount of boss kills as you (proof wise, actuall kills are a lot higher since I do and did multiple runs per week in the past), am enjoying raids still, can recommend them to anyone who wants to give them a shot. Even if I stopped raiding tomorrow, I'd still recommend raids to people who enjoy GW2 and like challenging content, because I have gotten tons of hours worth of fun out of them. I do feel sad about the slow release cadence, but I'm not pve hardcore enough to care currently (as in, with doing some achievements here and there and fractals, I get my pve worth daily. I don't play 8 hours per day pve atm). GW2 was never a raid centric game to begin with.

    As far as all the rest, I don't care about the drama people put up with build and equipment templates. I used arc a lot, I use the current system and I've already spent over 12k gems on decking out my characters (in bought gems, converted is quite a bit more). I enjoy the current implementation a lot more than the constant double checking if arc forgot to load something, or the repeated waiting on delta to bring out a new version after it broke, or the crashes. There are issues and I hope there will be some fixes, but even if they left them as is, I'd be more than fine with them.

    I've taken breaks, I've returned, and I've always found enjoyment and new things after returning.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954

    Very good, now OP has 2 clear opinions from 2 veteran raiders, with a good nuanced discussion developing them both. Hopefully the wealth of knowledge you and I brought into the conversation will be useful to them. I hope you continue to enjoy the raids, and if OP tries them, I hope they enjoy them too.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2019

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'll explain why I think this is an issue for me. I constantly see people complain about things along the lines of: Oh I've spent x-amount of hours on this game (often in the hundreds or thousands) but it's total trash , or similar reasonings. Many judge things based on their personal, in that moment, mood. If you've spent thousands of hours on something, but you can't recommend it, chances are you've burned out rather that the game has fundamentally become insanely bad (though that can happen). It's unfair to new or uninformed players to not take a step back and try to be objective. I for example have spent thousands of hours in WoW in the past, would I play it again? No. Would I still recommend it to others? Absolutely.

    Unfortunately it isn't a temporary mood. I've wanted to quit gw2 for a long time, at least 6 months, and I taken breaks before in the past. The only reason I log in is the weekly raids, and I don't do that because I love the content. I don't like the boring slog of spirit woods. I don't love the afk time in trio. I don't love the rng nature of soulless horror, or the boring gate event in w7.

    I don't log into gw2 to play gw2, and I haven't for a very long time. I log into gw2 to play with my friends, and many of them do the same thing. If all 9 of them said, 'hey we are switching to destiny'. I would switch with them, and I wouldn't look back at gw2.

    Additionally, a large chunk of my playtime happened during the era of build templates. I.e. actual build templates provided by arcdps, not loadouts that are over monetized. Meaning the quality of the product now is markably lower than a lot of what I experienced. And as I said, I see Anet making the same mistakes in worse and worse fashion. I see the quality of gw2's raids going down. Wing 7 was pushing it, but the build templates is the final straw to me, I would not recommend them anymore.

    Take issue with it all you want, its my opinion and it won't magically change. If you think I've done a disservice to OP by not recommending raids, please recommend them yourself. Because in this thread, despite attacking my stance endlessly, you're own opinion isn't clear to me.

    I can relate very well to what you said in this thread, and I'm fairly certain so can most hardcore players I know.
    Especially since the removal of Arc Templates a lot of us are more and more looking for alternatives, be it things like starting DnD groups or desperately looking for other games, to keep those social groups formed from Raid or Fractal Statics in tact which are almost the only thing which keeps a lot of us logging in.
    The removal of proper templates was a blow which on top of severe lack of content for the parts of the game we enjoy, as well as the repeated same mistakes on Anet's part from which they never seem to learn, which finally seems to have been too much for many.

    The continued silence on the side of Anet on how to address any of the issues which that part of the player base has with the system as well as it's monetization sends a clear message, which is that they don't want us here, or at the very least that they couldn't care less if we leave, while continuously making the game actually worse for us (and then in parts charging us hundreds of euros/dollars to make it slightly less worse, but still massively worse) and completely ignoring any and all feedback.
    That's not even considering all the bugs in a lot of hardcore content, which might have been charming for a while 2-3 years ago, but at this point it's just sad to continuously run into them, with more and more of them being added, rather than ever seeing anything fixed.

    I'm not sure I can still recommend the game anymore for anybody but maybe the most casual of gamers to hop in and just mess around for a bit, as getting properly invested at this stage just doesn't seem reasonable with the state of things.

    I still enjoy the gameplay at it's core, but everything around it is just in shambles. All the content making proper use of the great combat system is in great parts years old and played out at this stage, with Anet refusing to create any more at any reasonable pace, as 3 years for a ~10 Minute Fractal CM for example isn't exactly acceptable.
    On top of that, even all that good content is now a chore to play without proper templates to support it, making it at times feel like I'm spending more time prepping to play and have fun than I actually am doing just that.

    Meanwhile the content we are getting in LW is easy to a point of it almost seeming satirical of video games, with speed achievements to kill mobs in story instances in under 30 seconds which are literally killed in less than 3 seconds by pressing 2 buttons or less, big end bosses which die in 10 seconds, and 10 man content which can be soloed, or boils down to standing around afk while autoattacking just like the rest of Open World when in a group.

    Ofc there is still loads of extremely casual fun to be had in the game and I don't think even the most frustrated players contest that GW2 is a fantastic game in parts, but that doesn't mean it's still worth getting invested in if you aren't already, as there just doesn't seem to be a future other than monitization on the horizon.
    Additionally, without regular new hardcore content providing entry points for newer players on a more even playing field, I see content like Raids and Fractal CM's increasingly difficult and frustrating to get into, for not much payoff as there won't be any more content waiting for them even if they manage to do so.

    But of course I hope I'm wrong there, that they learn from their mistakes and turn the ship around, but then again those are hopes many of us have been holding onto for years at this point, just to watch Anet not only mess up new things, but now actively taking away things that previously helped making the game great.
    Even the most enduring players can only take so much disappointment and wasted potential.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • DoRi Silvia.4159DoRi Silvia.4159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2019

    As someone who joined a guild which regularly hosts raid training weekly - just so that I could give raiding a go

    It is arguably one of the hardest PvE content in GW2
    But in saying that it is also probably the hardest because the majority of pve content is brain dead easy

    There are many mechanics to consider in raids , ones which are unforgiving
    Best suggestion to get into raiding is to find a raid guild which runs training and try and participate in as much as you can - this is the only way

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    The recent blunder of build templates is to me, a very obvious statement that Anet doesn't really know how to support raiding anymore.

    Maybe Arenanet is also asking themselves WHY they should bother supporting raiding anymore.
    With all the requirements imposed by "expert raiders", the LFG raiding panel mostly full of sales and no training groups in the LFG, it looks pretty sad for raiding.

    Combined with the already small and (apparently) diminishing raiding 'community', I wonder if Arenanet decided to put raids on hold.
    Strike missions seem to be intended as the new hard endgame content, too.

    As for you it seems in almost every raid related topic your name comes up always posting similar posts about how raiding is bad for the community and it is dying or it is only for the small portion of the playerbase, while as I recall you have never even given raiding a try in the first place.
    Stop scaring the kids away, raiding is doable and is difficult but achievable through practice. If you have tried raiding in the time between ive last bothered to look at a post by you and since when you have not raided and decided to post about the negative thoughts about it, then simply it is just not for you. There is just no need to blame the 'small' - as you refer, community of players who love the raiding content and say they are a minority GW2 should change the raids completely and tone it down.
    No.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2019

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    As for you it seems in almost every raid related topic your name comes up always posting similar posts about how raiding is bad for the community and it is dying or it is only for the small portion of the playerbase, while as I recall you have never even given raiding a try in the first place.

    I never said it is bad for anyone or the community.

    Stop scaring the kids away, raiding is doable and is difficult but achievable through practice.

    Those "kids" deserve to see both ssides of the coin, not only your 'upside'.
    Most people play games to take it easy and relax from their tedious day job or from school (which children often perceive as a tedious bother).
    So going to the effort of learning and practising a Meta build (that possibly doesn't even fit their play style) is not everyone's bowl of soup.

    If you have tried raiding in the time between ive last bothered to look at a post by you and since when you have not raided and decided to post about the negative thoughts about it, then simply it is just not for you. There is just no need to blame the 'small' - as you refer, community of players who love the raiding content and say they are a minority GW2 should change the raids completely and tone it down.

    I never advocated (or at least can't remember if I ever did) for raids to be toned down.
    Having multiple difficulties is different from toning it down, after all.
    Also, different difficulties make content accessible to a wider audience, causing all sides to benefit from it.
    I never have been against raids or their current difficulty, even if I do not go through the (for me) tedious effort of learning META builds (which definitely don't match with my play style).
    With the lack of raid training being advertised ingame, the (widely perceived) necessity to get META builds and the generally low interest in raiding (from what I perceived, based on several map chats), it is hard to get into raids or even just form parties.

    The shrinking raid community statements are tidbits from (former and current) raiders.
    The ever-increasing amount of LFG entries being raid sales doesn't help increasing the raid population either.

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Best suggestion to get into raiding is to find a raid guild which runs training and try and participate in as much as you can - this is the only way

    I have been trying to find a guild that does trainings at 8pm gmt, for months. I've come to the conclusion that it probably doesnt exist. They all start at 6pm gmt. I can't start that early.

    so it's really not that simple as "find a guild".

    I do wish anet would also ban raid sellers, but i guess that brimg too much money in.

  • @Taygus.4571 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Best suggestion to get into raiding is to find a raid guild which runs training and try and participate in as much as you can - this is the only way

    I have been trying to find a guild that does trainings at 8pm gmt, for months. I've come to the conclusion that it probably doesnt exist. They all start at 6pm gmt. I can't start that early.

    so it's really not that simple as "find a guild".

    I have that exact same problem, I sympathize. I joined a guild that did have some raid trainings, but I could never make it to any of them.

    I do wish anet would also ban raid sellers, but i guess that brimg too much money in.

    I actually like the option of having the raid sellers out there for a guy like me. I farmed a legendary set from spvp while chasing titles, so the thirst for that specific item is gone, but lately I've been considering paying for some clears just to get my mastery up to max. I'd prefer to actually raid though, so waiting for an opportunity to change my work schedule to fit what seems to be the raiding community's timetable lol.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    but lately I've been considering paying for some clears just to get my mastery up to max

    Join a training run that's doing either of the first two bosses for Wing 4. Those usually tend to succeed with new players and you only need to beat one raid encounter to unlock the raid mastery track.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Best suggestion to get into raiding is to find a raid guild which runs training and try and participate in as much as you can - this is the only way

    I have been trying to find a guild that does trainings at 8pm gmt, for months. I've come to the conclusion that it probably doesnt exist. They all start at 6pm gmt. I can't start that early.

    so it's really not that simple as "find a guild".

    I do wish anet would also ban raid sellers, but i guess that brimg too much money in.

    Our training guild has most of its trainings 7pm or 8pm gmt

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:
    but lately I've been considering paying for some clears just to get my mastery up to max

    Join a training run that's doing either of the first two bosses for Wing 4. Those usually tend to succeed with new players and you only need to beat one raid encounter to unlock the raid mastery track.

    Ah good to know. I'd heard that it takes very little to open the mastery track, and I just... want to have that done for the sake of having it done.

  • ixora.3569ixora.3569 Member ✭✭

    I can answer this. A raid is something I will never be able to do because i have no friends, Also Min/maxers kick me out because I dont have the gear they want me to have....Such is the solo life.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @ixora.3569 said:
    I can answer this. A raid is something I will never be able to do because i have no friends, Also Min/maxers kick me out because I dont have the gear they want me to have....Such is the solo life.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ixora.3569 said:
    I can answer this. A raid is something I will never be able to do because i have no friends, Also Min/maxers kick me out because I dont have the gear they want me to have....Such is the solo life.

    Well there is many guilds that has raid trainings and also LFG. When it comes to gear, proper zerk gear is cheap and easy to get.

    You dont raid because you dont want to raid.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2020

    @Taygus.4571 said:

    @DoRi Silvia.4159 said:
    Best suggestion to get into raiding is to find a raid guild which runs training and try and participate in as much as you can - this is the only way

    I have been trying to find a guild that does trainings at 8pm gmt, for months. I've come to the conclusion that it probably doesnt exist. They all start at 6pm gmt. I can't start that early.

    so it's really not that simple as "find a guild".

    Im the same vote but with a different time zone. The guild i ended up joining starts their training runs at 10pm in my TZ so i cant make it. And every other guild ive looked into does it at around the same time. i cant start later than 8PM eastern or earlier than 4pm eastern(if im lucky), so im -boned- when it comes to raids, add to that i rarely see guilds promoting doing raids these days(and the few i do seem to what players to know what to do already), or dont support the time range i listed.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • ixora.3569ixora.3569 Member ✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @ixora.3569 said:
    I can answer this. A raid is something I will never be able to do because i have no friends, Also Min/maxers kick me out because I dont have the gear they want me to have....Such is the solo life.

    Well there is many guilds that has raid trainings and also LFG. When it comes to gear, proper zerk gear is cheap and easy to get.

    You dont raid because you dont want to raid.

    Woah I do raid (at least try) but I get kicked or we dont finish. Dont go attacking me cuz I get kicked honestly people these days.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ixora.3569 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @ixora.3569 said:
    I can answer this. A raid is something I will never be able to do because i have no friends, Also Min/maxers kick me out because I dont have the gear they want me to have....Such is the solo life.

    Well there is many guilds that has raid trainings and also LFG. When it comes to gear, proper zerk gear is cheap and easy to get.

    You dont raid because you dont want to raid.

    Woah I do raid (at least try) but I get kicked or we dont finish. Dont go attacking me cuz I get kicked honestly people these days.

    You have to admit, one can misunderstand what you were saying, given you explicitly stated you:

    @ixora.3569 said:
    will never be able to do [raids]

    If you are getting kicked from raids, reflect on why you were kicked and try to improve so the next group does not kick you. Gear is very seldom the main reason.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2020

    @ixora.3569 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @ixora.3569 said:
    I can answer this. A raid is something I will never be able to do because i have no friends, Also Min/maxers kick me out because I dont have the gear they want me to have....Such is the solo life.

    Well there is many guilds that has raid trainings and also LFG. When it comes to gear, proper zerk gear is cheap and easy to get.

    You dont raid because you dont want to raid.

    Woah I do raid (at least try) but I get kicked or we dont finish. Dont go attacking me cuz I get kicked honestly people these days.

    Ofc you might get kicked if you dont have proper gear like you said earlier.

    Gear up and learn your rotation.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hows raid in lfg these days? Hvnt played the game for more than 6 months xD

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    LFG raiding seems to be 50% selling runs and 50% statics searching for experienced raiders.
    I've never seen any training runs or "all welcome" runs being advertised there.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    LFG raiding seems to be 50% selling runs and 50% statics searching for experienced raiders.
    I've never seen any training runs or "all welcome" runs being advertised there.

    I see training and no LI runs daily. Usually between 17 servertime and 20 servertime.
    EU

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    LFG raiding seems to be 50% selling runs and 50% statics searching for experienced raiders.
    I've never seen any training runs or "all welcome" runs being advertised there.

    No wonder. Player count shrinking in an alarming rate.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • When I start a squad, it is usualy filled in couple of minutes.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    No wonder. Player count shrinking in an alarming rate.

    Do you have numbers to support that hypothesis?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    No wonder. Player count shrinking in an alarming rate.

    Do you have numbers to support that hypothesis?

    It's a well-known GW2 meme.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    No wonder. Player count shrinking in an alarming rate.

    Do you have numbers to support that hypothesis?

    Well you can use data from gw2efficiency to see that the most active and loyal players are indeed leaving. We don't have data for the "I play 1 hour a year" casuals, but I don't think they can make a game look alive anyway. It's the players that play multiple hours every day that make a game feel alive and active, and those are leaving in large numbers, especially after the direction the Icebrood Saga went towards.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2020

    gw2eficiency is a small sample size.
    It's like asking random people on the street during surveys.
    It may represent the whole population, but it also might be completely off.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2020

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    gw2eficiency is a small sample size.
    It's like asking random people on the street during surveys.
    It may represent the whole population, but it also might be completely off.

    Small sample size of what exactly? The number of active players in a month means nothing for a game's activity, a player that plays 1 hour in a month won't make the game feel active but a player that plays 10 hours in a day will. And gw2efficiency accounts have half (or more) the total play time of the entire population, meaning this "small sample size" is actually the most active part of the playerbase, by a huge margin. Now if this hugely active part is shrinking, and there is no question about that because it does, it means overall activity is also shrinking.

    edit: it's not asking random people, it's asking the most active and invested people during surveys.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If it doesn't list all the playtime, it's small in comparison.
    How do you even know it lists that much of playtime? Does it offer official numbers that Arenanet doesn't make public otherwise?

    I used to count myself as part of the more active half of players, yet I never even touched that site.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2020

    We do have official data on both the total playerbase and gw2efficiency users.

    First, Arenanet made it public here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/celebrating-six-years-of-guild-wars-2/
    The community has played 119,431.07 years combined. This is the playtime of the 11000000 accounts that the game had in August 28, 2018

    Second, gw2efficiency gives us the combined total playtime of all its accounts: https://gw2efficiency.com/account/player-statistics
    Which is 551,387,445 hours, or 22,974,476.875‬‬ days, or 62,943.77226027397 years

    Then it's a simple subtraction.
    11000000 total accounts played 119,431 years combined
    245,601‬ total gw2efficiency accounts played 62,944 years combined
    10,754,399‬ non-gw2efficiency accounts played 56,487 years combined, obviously the actual number of active players is much less, but that does prove gw2efficiency accounts play as much as the rest of the playerbase combined. No matter how "small" the sample is. There is no speculation here, just hard data.

    Now for some estimates and speculation. I'm using data from January 2020, comparing with -almost- September 2018, 15 month difference, however gw2efficiency activity is down to 20% in 2019, so their overall playtime accumulation must also be lower. But in any case, the game has a total life of 89 months, so 15 months is 1/6th (5.93 to be exact) that. So we can use this to subtract from the total of gw2efficiency playtime to reach the number 52,336 which isn't half of the total, but very close to what the non-gw2efficiency population has accumulated (56,487), again this is the worst possible number because activity of gw2efficinecy is down to 20% in 2019, meaning their playtime accumulation is much slower, but as a worst case scenario, it still shows just how much of the total playtime is from gw2efficiency users.

    Edit:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I used to count myself as part of the more active half of players, yet I never even touched that site.

    Obviously you are a tiny minority of the non-gw2efficiency users.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The amount of active raiders is dropping so fast we already reached numbers below zero, soon to be -1.000.000 active players. However that works.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein